Do Spellcasters have it too good?

at least i know how to quote : (
plague touch lol, remedy signet, signet of malice, sight beyond sight, antidote signet, mending touch is still modern bdw
u can easily keep up with blinds and even remove an aditional condition
and also makes it easier for the monk
have u tried removing daze as a caster while sins and wars are jumping on your head
have u been knocked down as a caster and you can't do shit
a warrior can take u out with 3 hits cause u also have "advantageous" AL...
a good warrior that is... cause i've seen warriors who do silly amout of damage WITHOUT blind....
this is team game if u can't balance your team's build don't blame the balance of the game
and don't just rely on the monk
even a good monk will fall if the team doesn't protect him!
and blind is just one of the defensive skills against melee which as everything else can be removed/countered (except weapons lol ...where i would like to say there's not a better condition cleaner than a rit with cheap quick weapons and Wielder's Remedy equipped i had so fun playing that not too long ago)
this thread is almost as sh*ty as the "45 sec recharge prot spirit" lol

QFT.
Now, how to bring this post up to 12 characters in length...

sure u can hit them with lotsa hits when they arent under lightning reflexes but ur still going to do little damage 20-30 a hit on skill useage and lower on non skill usages, I doubt it could out-damage an Armour ignoring Obsidian Earth Ele. or a Vampiric Spirit Blood spike Necro etc. etc.

Sophita... you know how +damage works, right?
How does a Dragon slasher (+42 Galrath, +42 Dragon Slash etc.) only hit for 20-30 on skill usage?
Or... are you truly ignorant?

Btw...Earth eles trying to kill with armour-ignoring damage are fairly lame. There's Ob. Flame, which racks up exhaustion like nobody's business, and there's the Crystal spells, which are point-blank (tiny AoE, to boot) on a horrid recharge. Warriors > Earth eles for armour-ignoring damage.

Well i must be completely Ignorant then despite having a Warrior of such a build because Jades im pretty sure have AL 80 atleast which cuts the damage u deal to them quite considerably, even when using an attack skill.

Youve clearly nevered tried an AoE Earth Ele. Anyone with an once of sence can make it work, u cast Flame only now and again (mainly to finish a target off) the poin blank range is no problem with a good defensive skill, and while the skills are recharging ur free to use Whirlwind and Aftershock and other such skills. My Ele can do Dunes Bonus the propper way with no problems with atleast 2 and a half minutes left on the clock (using henchies).

You've obviously no clue about how attack skills work...
Long story short, +dmg on attack skills bypasses armour.
A dragon slasher hitting his skills on recharge will easily deal more armour-ignoring damage than an earth ele, especially one being cautious with the Flame.

Btw, I have tried playing an earth ele... I quite like earth, too. However, there's not much earth does damage-wise that Fire can't do better. I quite like the melee hate aspects of it though, Eruption's pretty good

I stopped reading there. Who cares what happens when it's a 1v1 situation? GW is about how classes interact with each other, and not about 1v1 matchups.

I hate warriors. I never play mine unless I'm farming and I NEVER use them in pve. I take 2-3monks 1mm rest nukers and sometimes an earth elly, why? Because it completely rapes everything in pve.
In pvp.. specifically gvg, I usually monk..if a warrior gets on me he NEVER does anything to me unless its a spike including casters.. balanced stance+disciplined stance > a warrior

Well your entitled your ur opinion ofc, but imo an AL ignoring Ele will always outdamage a Warrior except on a target with < 60AL .

Unless Anet has changed the +xx damage on attacks without me noticing (in which case ill stand corrected on such a thing) the AL will still take effect, but that doesnt change my opinion that an Ele or anyother Caster for that matter will always outdamage a warrior. This is not worked out from any chart or such like but worked out from actual game experience. As i said before if this wasnt the Case The Cookie Cutter builds wouldnt have a Nuker a monk and a tank it would just have a monk and a Warrior.

You lose all credibility when you put dervish in just "melee" while deadly art assassin is a "caster".

Dervish would be a caster as well by your logic. Otherwise, the classes are 5 "physical" attackers and 5 "magic" users. Quite balanced, no?

But a deadly arts assassin isn't melee...so what is it?

I came across one for the first time this weekend in AB...just stands there and casts spells (deadly arts spells, that is)...I don't get how that isn't a caster. He wasn't too bad...and who knows, if I wasn't playing as Rit maybe he would have won.

Not worth the time to explain how many ways you're wrong. Hell, you even contradicted yourself with "will always outdamage a warrior" and "except on a target".... Anyway, I'd love a legitimate example of another caster outdamaging a warrior.

I'll just leave you with an example. If eles outdamage warriors by such a large margin, why do almost none of the top guilds in GvG run eles for anything but flagrunning? Meanwhile, pretty much all of them run warriors for spiking people out and pressure. Does this mean nothing to you?

"How does the melee truly stack against smart casters who can stop them without them taking any damage from them."

Ummm, interrupt skills. By your own listing, a ranger is in the melee class and a good ranger can frustrate the hell out of a caster any day. In fact, when Lili is out, she usually fans her damage out (poison is good either before or after a base interrupt) to all the enemy casters so the warriors and ally casters have a more 'even' playing field. If you know your profession and have an understanding of the foe, you can make a well educated decision on which caster(s) need to be hit first and which can wait.

An efficient warrior can, if the party has an ele or other AoE caster, draw aggro around themselves providing an irresistable target. Dervishes are even better at it! 'Sins seem to do it by accident. Enemy (and some ally) casters are rather dim in that they seem to target the melee first (or at the same time as the healer) instead of the backline which will end up being the ones who cream their sorry arses en masse. Notice I said 'en masse'. The warriors/melee may (and do) mow down the foe, but casters can do it several at a time if fortunate in their melee group's aggro attempt.

Balance, grasshopper. I can (and have) take a warrior in solo and been victorious. I can (and have) take a caster in solo and been victorious. But it takes longer and requires attention to detail.

Other than that, to be quite honest, I cannot make any sense out of what you've been writing. Perhaps it's my fault, but your grammar and such is so poor that your (obviously thought out) arguments are too obscure.

Melee characters will have an easier time in certain parts of the game than casters and vice versa. That's why it's so important to have a balanced team - to fill those gaps - because you can bet that one part of a mission will have melee-'friendly' foe whilst another has caster-friendly.

~Falcon

This bit is the part that is particularly true to PvE at any rate. In PvP people don't have any hesitation to move out of an AoE if they have half a brain...whereas in PvE certain monsters seem to have too great an ego to move... Margonites...I adore Margonites. They just sit there being ground to dust by little grains of Sand. An entire group is often half dead by the time melee characters get to them.

If you going to disgree with me, atleast make up a valid reason why not, I always walk around except when im sitting its not a contradiction is its part of the same statement . a Contradiction would be. I never sit down. I sat down last week. "Except" is what makes it not a contradiction. Ok u want another example, how about a 55 monk using spoil victor on an Attaxe, even that 1 skill without using any others out damages a Warrior.

And this is also the reason why lately theve been complaining Aegis chains are "overpowered". Because there using Warriors and not using Casters that could easily ignore such enchants.

Basically a dervish spellcaster can only do 2 things
PBaoe, that is very weak, Heal with certain healing skills or Derv bomb which is PBaoe

If you want it in there fine but, how many people do that? How many people actually consider using a full PBaoe dervish who has to run up to people and hope they dont move when he activates that pbaoe that does 47 holy damage or 37 fire damage and burning for 2 seconds.
I put 2 sins because siins can cast spells or do melee. It depends on what you want. Theres not just a split of 10/5, because the skills they use depends
Range and melee were included as 1 so ranger and Paragon go under melee they are also with the melee dervish sin and Warrior/ Seems like 5 at first

But then theres Rit,necro,monk,ele,DA sin,Mesmer, PB aoe derv since you want to include them.
Sure theres more spell casters that doesn't really master however spell casters are able to cripple a melee character with much more ease. After all A blind melee character can't land that temple strike to daze if they miss.
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Eles still have prejudice against them from how sad they use to be. People use them as flag runners because they are efficent at it. They can do the damage but the guilds don't want them too. Eles and warriors can easily take each others Position on the field if it was the FOTM to do it as it is now.

Sure they can but as many people want to tell me, even though I have put team examples up. There is a team. When you get the ranger blind your monk (or if monks dazed) then cures it and now with them blind you keep the blind bot going on them again.


The thing is in terms of calculation....after a certain timeframe the warrior beats the ele. the exhaustion sets in and your useless, if I remember exhaustion stays even when you die would really suck having to wait to die only to find that you still have exhaustion while the warrior is pummeling you.


Well Im tired...typing...

For your first point, you made two SEPARATE statements. The first used except. The second, did not and included "all other casters". Thus, contradiction.

Why should I "make up" a reason, when there's plenty of proof already in the thread? You've heard of Dragon Slashers, Evisc/Exec spikes, what more do you need? In addition to the fact that the warrior's damage without skills over time adds up as well.

I said a legit example - not one build abusing game mechanics that'd be completely useless outside of PvE. A legit build would be SF or Cripslash, one that works mostly everywhere.

As far as people complaining about Aegis, yes, it is because they use warriors - because they know warriors' damage outclasses that of eles when used properly.

If everyone was running casters for damage, there'd be a lot more interrupt rangers/mesmers in GvG. Instead, we have blinds/snares/aegis chains. Because again, it seems mostly everyone but you is aware that warriors outdamage eles over time.

Let's see.
The only area where my 'spellcaster' would be overpowered would be in PvP-ish areas like AB and Fort Aspenwood.
That's because I know the Sins/Warriors/Rangers don't bring condition removers and most have bad teams.
I just put up my PvP mesmer, put anti-melee on him.
That's not because my mesmer is overpowered, but because most people (specially Sins) ignore that little hex that is called Inneptitude and attack right through it, next stop clums and clums sig and we have an almost dead Sin. Put some degen on him, remove the enchantment (bye shadow refuge) and we can wave one more sin goodbye.

You win in both AB and Aspenwood if you play as a team or at least a part of your 'group' does (and the others don't).
In more serious PvP (HA/GvG/TA) the build would be useless.
Since a lot of teams take a monk (with condition remover) I prefer to take caster hate or general shutdown/disable hexes there and not melee hate.

Granted, it was a long time ago now, but I do recall observing a guild battle where 8 W/Mo, with no casters supporting them, won the match.

Sure, it's fun owning those noob melee characters in RA. But that's not because their class sucks, its because they do.

bothersome melee: assasins, thumpers/hammer users, good warriors? What about rangers they don't cast but they're not melee either.

true i suspose, it depends how u read it, its written as a generic statement. But still i stand by my opinion the average Caster in the average situation will out damage the average warrior.

I think your version of a legit build is a cookie cutter build, sorry but i dont do cookie cutter. I could say the same, i dont need to explain because others have but im making a point so i explain it, you dont have to agree but i explain my way of thinking.

Yes a good warrior can outdamage a bad ele but a good Ele can outdamage a good warrior. If Warriors really do out damage Eles or Rits then why are the bosses that are considered real problems Casters?

No not everyone agrees, numerious others understand the damage Eles and other casters can actually do, feel free to keep ur opinion but just because u beleive it that doesnt make it necessary true. I play

Because henchies are stupid and ball up for aoe damage. Not because those bosses are inherently powerful. They're also very easy to shut down.

Acolyte of Balthazar is a fun one in hard mode, however.

You might take note that ele bosses in prophecies really offer very little to worry about in terms of damage. Factions and nightfall bosses, however, have their damage doubled. Some warrior, dervish and assassin bosses hurt just as much as the ele and rit bosses that are a concern, the difference is that most of the ele and rit bosses deal aoe damage. This is compounded by using heroes and henchmen because they ball together and are slow to react to, say, a hit with searing flames.

To a single target, they really do damage comparable to that of some of the melee bosses and that's what this entire thread is really about, 1v1.

Warriors are not stronger then eles (well in brute strength they are...eles use magic not strength)

Eles were made with the mind of doing more damage

DPS and a NUke are different

When I think of Nuke I think a large amount of damage, Dps means Damage per second High DPS means Wave after wave of hit.

In Raw damage the Ele is tronger, sure you can calculate overtime maybe the warrior is stronger then I'm not sure but I doubt it.

The problem with warriors is the melee aspect, and then theres Getting to that area. With water eles running rampant Deep freeze is gonna get a bunch of people.

Most of this warrior love is Prophecies Bias, because it was the only melee option way back when dinosaurs ruled Tokyo people think its better then a ele. A warrior takes damage and gives out ..decent damage but the Ele doesn't take it and puts out the damage to balance it. So why choose some1 who will die? The ele can be a blindbot, spiker,nuker,Snare, Utility,runner.
The warrior can

Try to go after a water ele and fail, try to spike but most people kite alot and don't say cripple because if Blind is so easily cured by the monks cripple is aswell, and just pressure, I like the ele options more.

I have a warrior but he seems so garbage to me.
Bring an all mesmer team vs all Warrior its easy to notice who wins
Bring an all sin vs all warrior, and these sins are not stupid, I think sin will win
But then again the Spell casters in general are going to win because of their advantage of range and shutdowns.

hmmm well the boss part is really ignorant. You do understand that the bosses do 2x the normal dmg? not to mention the fast casts..... so duh a boss with ancestors rage will do over 200 dmg.

can your ele do 125 dmg + deepwound? over 225 dmg? thats with 500 health. I seriously doubt it, or people would just run eles in all pvp.

When you read a skill like meteor shower do you read it as OMFG! over 300 dmg! awesome!
or
Do you read it like this: oh 100+ dmg to stupid npcs that are too damn stupid to get out of the way. awesome...

Good ele out dmging a warrior? what do you think a good ele is? someone who will play against a subpar player who will stand in aoe? sounds like it.

Sophita, please stop digging that hole.

Chicken said a 'legit build'...

What build you you say? Oh, yeah. A 55 with SV. A build that abuses game mechanics (and certain quest rewards...) to farm dumbass AI in specific places.
A practical and viable build for general use? Hell no.
Legitimate example pl0x.

In seriousness, a SF ele *can* outdamage a warrior... in a PvE/AB situation, where your opponents are retarded enough to ball up and be flamed to death.
In actual competitive play (observer mode, much?), warriors are used as main damage dealers and eles aren't... care to explain why if 'good eles' can outdamage 'good warriors'?
Please, none of that 'clinging to the past' or 'cookie cutter mentality' shit, if you would be so kind.

And EDIT: Yes, En... lots of classes will beat warriors one on one. Warriors are meant to be easily shut down. It compensates for their ridiculous capacity for damage and disruption. If they could not only kill shit *and* be tough to stop, it'd be broken.

Question: Do Spellcasters have it too good?

Answer: No.

Can some1 explain how in a team battle warriors and casters are even?
All casters can apply deep wound by going into the easy secondary
E/A, Deadly arts will give them the deep wound they seek.

And Casters with Deep wound makes the entire warrior gives 100 and Deep wound thing.

Warriors don't actually Hit 100 damage, They can do cumulative damage towards 100 damage but they don't do it out raw, with deep wound its neary 200 damage. However thats from building up adrenaline and such from before hand.

Now an ele at the start will start spiking/nuking now if there E/A they put up the hex warrior hits 50% then deep wound comes + the damage there almost dead.

And in a team battle, I'm pretty damn sure people bring conditions like blind, its kinda silly not to. Stopping a sin spike/warrior spike/derv spike/ranger/paragon spike Without the need of the monk waring out there energy simply just put up blind, sure the monk can heal it but they just missed an attack.

If warriors do such great damage in gvg and such then Eles should deal even greater, a Me/E should have good e-management and with fast casting deal a decent spike, more then enough to outmatch a warriors damage.

Think on 1 on 1 its spellcaster, think in team Its a smart spellcaster.

Eles aren't used as the main damage dealers, because people don't want them , they could pull it of easily they just don't want to. Most High guilds have been their since prophecies and are used to warrior use.

You wanna ask why people don't use certain things in gvg...

An Entire rit team still works but we don't use that everyday.

A full ele team can work aswell, stick a monk in their and it works.
People use what they use because they want it, because its FOTM,because they can.
People can use eles the just don't want too
If I replaced warriors with eles it won't matter.

To me, whether a build is effective or not in most areas of PvE and PvP determines whether or not it's legit. "Cookie cutter" is just a term used by idiots who look down on those playing a certain build just because it's popular, effective and easy to use. I'm curious to what you run if you always avoid everything that could possibly be considered "cookie cutter".

We're arguing from two different perspectives anyway. From the sound of it, you play mostly PvE. Me, PvP. Two different ballgames mostly, although I still believe warrior is damage king in both. I'm too lazy to do the calculations though, and not feeling like arguing all day, so I'll leave this topic with both of us clinging to our beliefs. It's mostly a pointless debate anyway, since both classes are needed in good teams.

One last thing. Not sure if all of this topic still holds true with the addition of NF, but it's a good read regardless for any war v ele comparisons: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319 Yes it's been linked to before, but it's worth a second time imo.

Yes they do. Learn to actually play a warrior with a decent build and then comment. As a monk, I would take any damage caster on me over a good warrior any day.

Well my guild plays balanced in gvg (rank 83 atm) and generally we find that its the casters that make the melee shine

I'm not playing any Bad build, Maybe its because im an assassin but I have never had a warrior strike 100 damage on me unless it was in pve which is kinda...iffy anyways.
If they do that on spell casters then thats different.

When the fight first starts yet, but as energy levels start to diminish the guy with the biggest stick gets the cookies.

So to speak

Oh wait, Shock + Frenzy + Eviscerate + Executioner's + Rush + Bull's strike. Oh, and you forgot Sever + Gash + Final Thrust, or Dragon Slash + Standing Slash.

Saying you have to deal 100+ damage with one skill is like saying you're allowed only one skill on your bar. It's about how well those skills work together, not the one 100+ damage skill. I'd rather have any damage caster pounding on me than a warrior any day.

Yes, because you really want to teleport right next to a warrior who could then unleash adrenaline into you, tearing you apart.

Yes they do. Stop tanking, put 16 in your weapon attribute and bring decent skills.

Lol. Eviscerate alone usually hits for 100+, deep wound for another 100ish, followed by an Executioner's Strike for another hunk of HP. You seem to forget that the warrior is dealing decent damage to you without using skills, while he's building that adrenaline to spike you down with.

Almost isn't good enough, especially since good teams have those things called monks.

Oh no, one attack. News flash, warrior can simply build adren back in ~8s and spike you again. Not to mention one skill missing isn't that fatal, since warriors don't tend to spike alone. Also, you seem to forget that people bring conditions like daze and things like interrupts to destroy your casters as well.

Should? Why? Because you think people will ball up for your AoE? Me/Es do deal decent spikes. It's just, warriors deal better ones. Not to mention the extra armor and DPS while not spiking helps.


Think 1 on 1s don't matter, Guild Wars is a team game.

Eles aren't used as main damage dealers because they're simply not as good at killing things as warriors. That's all there is to it.

Wow, I'm too busy laughing to type a reply to that one.

I lol'd
Warriors easy to master?Ever played high level gvg ?

...

Or it could be opportune depends on the situation

I don't tank I'm not interested in being a brick, however I don't play warriors enough to care, im on my assassin enjoying myself. (not saying Warriors aren't fun, there not me)

I've never seen this happen to me, Im usually on my sin I've seen eviscerate warriors, I've asked weapon masterys its usually 15, if you need 16 in that attribute I don't want to partake, thats a large sum of health lost using that Superior rune.


.
Didn't you say people don't fight alone and that Monks are everywhere? So how does that ele situation differ for a warrior if Monks are everywhere. And ALmost, was in terms that Kills aren't certain so I didn't want to put guaranteed.

If they hit. Not spiking alone is smart, but can't every class basically do that?


.
Point taken.



its for comparative reasons.


That I will disagree with, because I could say in theory warriors can't kill like sins can, but sins can be disabled if a chain is screwed. So I'll down myself down to saying there even.



Take some Tums, they taste kinda good.


Oh wait, Shock + Frenzy + Eviscerate + Executioner's + Rush + Bull's strike. Oh, and you forgot Sever + Gash + Final Thrust, or Dragon Slash + Standing Slash.

Saying you have to deal 100+ damage with one skill is like saying you're allowed only one skill on your bar. It's about how well those skills work together, not the one 100+ damage skill. I'd rather have any damage caster pounding on me than a warrior any day.

Thats if all of that hits....but if an entire sin combo hit whats the difference?
You'd enjoy having deadly arts spike on you? I wouldn't that pisses me off. I enjoy warrior coming to me, there not much of a threat to me, Maybe I'm wrong but when I was just a wee assassin I asked a guild mate warrior if I could test a build on him as I wanted to see high damage output, so he came we kinda shuffled around like a cowboy video seeing who would come closer first, I turned around ran away and then hit dash and charged at him executing a combo, He was rather impressed we did this again with his evasion stance on, but I had anti-block on anyways so it didn't matter. Anyways he tested a build on me and I lol'd It was just boring I thought of times while he was building that adrenaline for that spike where I could've killed an ele by now (without blind). Then he spiked me, I was almost dead, we did this again with my ele not using Blind skills and the ele died,

But an ele with blind laughs at a warrior, and when we held a inside scrimmage with the guild to tests ourselves among each other and get fimilar with each other, 1 side chose its teammates other chose theirs we went at each other warriors came after me as I tried to capture the flag, I saw an opportunity to kill the mesmer who wasn't paying attention shadow stepped and killed (if she was looking It would've failed), Aod'd back picked up the flag and placed it. Sure it may seem like a okay well thats a sin not a spell caster , I do the same with D arts and win.

Anyways thanks for the answers, I guess I'll try a pvp warrior and see the 100+DW thing.

You make it sound like Caster spikes are unstoppable and warriors always miss. I can have 3 SF eles on me for all I care ... Spirit bond will keep me up. It takes a lot more effort to keep the warriors at bay.

That means I dont Main with a warrior, I main with my sin. When I play a warrior I notice the spellcasters around me and how they suddenly became even more annoying then when playing my sin.
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I make it sound like 1 is unstoppable?
Then I apologize
It should come out that casters have more advantages over melee.

The ease of blind, harder to get dazed,distanced fighting (rangers/paragons also have this but without some of the other benefits) Easy Melee/range shutdowns.

Keeping the warriors at bay are more trouble...interesting because the only time I die from a warrior is when they are plentiful and the monk is down. But doesn't that go for anything? If the Sin/paragon/ranger/necro/every class is plentiful....

Since this game is Build Wars, it is your Build that determines victory whether caster or otherwise.

If I am an Ineptitude Mesmer with Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Signet of Clumsiness and so on, I am going to defeat the non-caster. If I am a Migraine Mesmer then the non-caster will beat me down (because I can't use Distortion these days). If a caster is aware of what he/she is about to face, they can customize a build that will take down the enemy very efficiently with the right skills. However, for those without crystal balls, casters are very vulnerable to both (a) other casters and (b) non-casters. Non-casters have the inherent bonus of additional armour.

That's part of the balance.

My anti-melee necro, anti-caster mesmer and snare eles have very conditonal skills that require a condition to be present for them to be effective. Warriors/Rangers/Paragons/Assassins/Dervishes/Rangers deal indiscriminate damage regardless of their specific purposes.