My thoughts on Paragons [long story]

GeniusLoci

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

13 Jun 2007 at 10:25 - 1

Hi everyone

I'm new here, but I've read some of the threads and I'm left with the impression people somehow don't understand this class or they just don't accept different opinions. This thread is more like single post of my PoV as I didn't want to hijack other's topic.

First of all - I'm like new to GW after a long break. I played Prophecies a lot when it came out, then after a few months I gave away the account. Now I'm bought Prophecies and Nightfall again and I enjoy running my Paragon around. I am not really sure why people bitch the class all the time here and there. Can't say I saw lot of this in the game too. Paragon is not a typical class, I give it this. And average wamo, nuker and monk lfp don't even have a clue what he is capable of so it fails to enter their list of party candidates. Here is a bit long story of my characters, hopefully you will understand why I think this is good class which doesn't need more or less love or nerfs.

Back in early 2005...
I started as W/Mo. Although later in the game I started to hate W/Mos as cookie cutter class, I kept him - I farmed, used him in SF, unlocked like 1/2 of all the secondary professions skills and enjoyed him a lot. it was easy to play, it was good learning what to do and what not. I was tired of monks who put enchantments on him (by then he was W/N for Plague touch) in SF. I was tired of people asking him to be tank when he was runner and good DPS axe wielder. I was tired how people thought it's lame to carry Watch yourself! all the time. And meh I was tired of other W/x who kept thinking tank means you can use Frenzy to build up adrenaline w/o getting killed (after being killed they usually say n00b healer). But as people wanted only tanking and never asked if I want to do something else (until I got to my good old guild, it doesn't exist now) I grew tired and I made another class.

Elementalist. Nuker, to be exact. And I feel I was 3x almost every other nuker out there as people actually felt his help. I cannot count how many times I told another random fire Ele to bring Maelstrom and switch to Me secondary for Mantra of resolve in FoW. They never bothered, they just stood there interrupted or they ran to mobs to unleash adjascent range spells. And people said Eles are same newbie class as W/Mos. I have unlocked almost every skill in the game with this Ele character and except for a few occasional protective Earth builds (for UW) I have always been fire nuker. Easy? Everyone says so, everyone who said it had lower DPS and was less utility than me. I just loved it. In GvGs I was Water Ele (never liked it, it wasn't complete back then) and Air was for PvP spikers (nerfed later). As it was harder and harder to find good monks (they became just farmers, no one healed), I made another character - Monk.

I was shocked how often people called me n00b. Almost every mission some W/Mo used frenzy, an Ele used adjascent fire spells, Mesmers and Necros came out with shields and swords, even rangers did stupid thing and when finally someone died - it was my fault. Someone agroed the whole map - it was my fault. Some other guy went to the local shop for Coke it was my fault. Everything was due to the n00b monk. And all this was after I went through countless missions and areas with my guildies. I found this about our monking in another forum Quote:

Finally, I joined a group comprised mostly of the excellent Madrad Clan, and with an 8 man team containing no less than 3 professional and very competent monks, (pure heal, heal prot, and prot smite), we waltzed through the mission as if it were made of candyfloss. The sudden flood of top-notch monking made me almost feel as if I were somehow cheating, as there was just no comparison in terms of the difficulty I went to help other people in missions - they never listened me if I had some strategy in mind or when I asked for regen. It was like beeing Red Cross volunteer who's boss yells about how he is useless and his payment is too high. I gave up, played only with guildies.

I had ranger as well, Ascended and never went through final missions. Being R/Me game hard time finding groups although guildies helped a lot. So she went to the recycle bin. I had Necto and Mesmer but I wasn't good (or they weren't so appealing to me).

Now I'm back. And I saw two new classes. Both look like solo classes in terms of secondary profession - Paragons depend mainly on their own skills, almost same for Dervishes. But dervishes are kick ass as they do have enchantments, do have high damage, have avatars and they are melee range. They also can put some use of another class while my paragon starved with other's skills. Not IMO, as I never liked hard enchanting except when game allowed me to use it (some of the monk builds and Ele's enchants). Again Dervish is just not my hero. Paragon looked like Angelic Paladin in my eyes so I started one. I have to say it is most enjoyable class I ever played (except for WoW's warlock

). people say easy but managing chants and echoes while still making some damage is not that easy. It's way harder than healing with monk, nuking and even mesmers work (given you know what you are doing with Mesmer). I can give my party constant unstripable regen shield, I can have constant +25% attack speed, give my team way to set on fire mobs, pump they crit chance and do bleeding on top of burning mobs. Oh, and those burning mobs do make less damage. It's all good, but then I realize - people don't see this. They just see those chants and so on on their screen but they don't even bother to look how they work. Even if we just made it through because of my Shouts and Chants all appreciation goes to Monks (even if they didn't need to heal). And Paragon was loke ranger - he did something there behind us, right?

So now:
Paragons look gay? Yeah, for average "warriors own" kid that thinks WWE is sport and girls should look like those manga female elementalists. The usual PvP's "PvE is for sissies" mind will tell you you look like gay in dress. First - it's kilt. Then in the most heroic ancient times of our worlds when war was all men do and it was more like art, when people lived to swing they sword and never heard of those full plate knights who died from clothies countless times, people worn skirts. And if today it looks gay, back then being bisexual wasn't sin or wrong, even if it looks shocking atm. Warrior in plate looks like he can get some beating but Paragon looks like some old Greek god, even if it's angelic brethen in GW.

Paragons overpowered? Sure. Just like every other class. People never liked all mesmers, all ele spikers, all rangers, all w/r, all necros and so on teams. And they always end nerfed and PvE gets worse, even if it is not that hard to accommodate to nerfs. Paragons have innate synergies and energy management, but they can't use energy stealing weapon as way to manage energy (while my warrior did this all the time and I never had empty bar) and they don't have warriors AP. On the other hand what is your secondary profession as Paragon? Warrior or Monk? Most other professions can make a good use of their secondary profession, while I never seem to see something really useful and I definitely need poits in some of Paragon's attributes.

AL is too high? Well for starters Paragons are group leaders, you can't expect they will be clothies. And they are still meant to be ranged warrior class. It's they and the warriors who should stand last on the field.

Oh, and they sure aren't nuke..oh, heal.. well tank then... well OK just do something, as they excel in doing thing to the whole group. Which takes a lot of time if you are "target ally" class.

What needs to be done to get respect from other classes is just flashy animations. If you ask for nerfs just because of PvP problems - let them remove the possibility to enter PvP with full paragon only team. or just think of other strategy. I don't see how it's overpowered to do what my p does right now. never been in full team although I can see why it's hard against such but this just adds to the above suggestion.

And yeah, we need helmets or crown-like head piece.

I hope I won't be smacked and flamed for what I wrote.
BR

Etta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Mancland, British Empire

13 Jun 2007 at 10:59 - 2

You picked a paragon, you play the class, understand how it work and enjoy it. Well done, you have already surpass most of the player in Guild Wars. Even after all the nerf to motivation, not enough good elites, paragon still formidable in both pvp and pve.

As for your ill experienced encounter with pugs, that's normal as many will agree, pugs are sh1t 90% of the time. Stick with guidies, friends and heroes. Paragons don't need any respect, the less peole play them the better, otherwise it will be just like those idiot wammos in the game.

Just like Mesmer before, Paragon will remain a class that most will not pick. As for the outfit, it's an all terrain protective and combat ready toga. Designed to combat the heat of elona and easy access to the toilet. So, forget about it!

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

13 Jun 2007 at 12:47 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

On the other hand what is your secondary profession as Paragon? Warrior or Monk? Most other professions can make a good use of their secondary profession, while I never seem to see something really useful and I definitely need poits in some of Paragon's attributes. Nice to see other people are appreciating the Paragon - they are an awesome class and are capable of great things...such a shame a lot of other people don't see it.

My secondary started out as Mesmer. Not used many mesmer skills so I switched to P/E. I like using Glimmering Mark with a shocking spear and Anthem of Flame + Steam. I generally rarely use skills from my secondary professions though...I'm usually pure paragon all the way.

clawofcrimson

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

Crimson Claw

13 Jun 2007 at 14:08 - 4

The paragon was mostly spared from the nerf stick this time around. Even in the midst of crying pvp'ers (they could probably use one... if you watch observe mode you'll see why) so I wouldn't worry too much about further nerfing at this point.

...and yes... helmets would be nice.

Nyagan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Minnesota

Twilight Of Oblivion

E/R

15 Jun 2007 at 02:06 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

Hi everyone

So now:
Paragons look gay? Yeah, for average "warriors own" kid that thinks WWE is sport and girls should look like those manga female elementalists. The usual PvP's "PvE is for sissies" mind will tell you you look like gay in dress. First - it's kilt. Then in the most heroic ancient times of our worlds when war was all men do and it was more like art, when people lived to swing they sword and never heard of those full plate knights who died from clothies countless times, people worn skirts. And if today it looks gay, back then being bisexual wasn't sin or wrong, even if it looks shocking atm. Warrior in plate looks like he can get some beating but Paragon looks like some old Greek god, even if it's angelic brethen in GW.
BR I agree, most people don't play the missunderstood paragon because of the apperance of their armor. Big deal, its a game, get over it and play the best class ever. They don't know what they are missing out on. I don't think it will ever be popular but an all paragon team in an AB would be awsome, they would get at least 100 points every minute.

Paragons are the best!!!

GeniusLoci

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

19 Jun 2007 at 07:34 - 6

I realized both nightfall and faction classes have a problem compared to core ones - their inability to capture skills at same rate. I want to capture most of the useful skills for my heroes but all I can do is bring a sig or two for my secondary profession. Not that is something to cry for, it's just harder to unlock more skills.

I'm pretty happy with the new PvE skill - it made it on my bar even before i knew it something new and even after they "fixed it" (which was ok, although the cost was fair enough). I wish that Dervishes stop getting so much love - not only they are better at farming and much more appreciated (in terms of entering groups) in PvE but they got some skill that is way to close to being broken as it allows endless form. Which is like ...well Dervish is now better tank than warriors! And then someone complains Paragons have high armor? Anyway, as long I have my TiNtF I'm happy. Cut's like breeze through missions where my other characters have a hard time

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

19 Jun 2007 at 08:05 - 7

Paragon PvE only skill rules over all. Nothing compares to 35% damage reduction the whole time...

veregre

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2006

AoA

N/Mo

19 Jun 2007 at 10:44 - 8

Warlock, boooooooooo

(<---ele shaman)

Anyway, i LOVE my para to death. I have a necro, rit, ele, war, monk, mes, and ranger and none are as much fun to play as my paragon. Unstripable, mostly instant damage reduction? YES PLEASE. The DPS of a sword warrior, whille providing more utility than 3/4ths of the rest of the team? Yeah, i'll take that.

The problem with PuGs is that most people who pug either A) want to be safe, so they take classes/combo's they know work well (SS, SF, MM. . .the list goes on and on. . .) or B) or plainly said, noobs. Not in the "zomg l2p nub" but literally someone who is new to the game. An issue with paragons is that besides the cool wings, and the massive amount of buffs on your bar, you don't see them leading. You don't see the the shouts he's throwing around, and for the most part, you don't see the burning from AoF, or the crits from GftE. You can SEE the SF ele trashing though shit, or the MM with his army. Back before the MM cap, you could see how good a MM was just by taking scope of his army.

(yes para's need a damn helm >_<)

Do they look "gay" or "girly"? NO. Go take a look at roman, greek or any early armor. Guess what. . .like you said, they are probably lightweight, and airy. How would you feel lugging around 100-150+ pounds of steel, just for you armour into combat? Not i, the fatigue alone would kill you in the end.

All in all, para's are amazing, just misunderstood. But with each game (Phrop, factions, NF) there has always been a class or two that was stongly disliked. . .Mesmers, Necros pre-aoe nerf (back then the only necro you would get in game would be a BiP), and more recently, Rits/sins, and paragons.

I assume by the time GW:EN hits, the para will have worked itself out, and hopefully most pugs will notice our strength. If not. . .well, we all have heros, right?

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

19 Jun 2007 at 10:53 - 9

Paragons are simply the Nightfall version of the Mesmer and Assassin, to create the PvE trinity of unwantedness, no matter how good their PvE skills are how how much they get buffed, the average PuG would never want one.

I don't have a Paragon, but if I buy some character slots at some point it would be an option, good support and staple damage with conditions seem very nice. I'm not a huge fan of all the white armor (it's looks decent for females) but the only thing I condem is the fact they throw a spear and magicaly take a new one out of nowhere.

GeniusLoci

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

19 Jun 2007 at 12:53 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by veregre

Warlock, boooooooooo

(<---ele shaman)

Necros pre-aoe nerf (back then the only necro you would get in game would be a BiP), and more recently, Rits/sins, and paragons.

I assume by the time GW:EN hits, the para will have worked itself out, and hopefully most pugs will notice our strength. If not. . .well, we all have heros, right?

Owned

Yup, I remember BiPs back when I played lots of FoW, almost every group had them do this. In my groups they (necros) did what they wanted, never forced them to use this up to stupidity.

Well problem is Paragon with Heroes cuts with ease. Tested some with other classes and there are places which are at least harder than others while with my Para I just charge in there between masses of mobs and focus fire, dealing with most mobs with amazing speed (Heroes and henchies are very good if not even twice better in this than any group). I love playing with people but then I'm < Nuker even if most of them are SF, SF, SF now, so all they do is DoT + damage which is very narrow and resourceful thing when it comes to Ele - it's so boring (and if it is for the set on fire condition I can do this as well as dishing spear attacks with bleeding and interrupt while still being able to protect their precious butts). And yeah they outdamage me by far but they are squashy. I'm < Warrior (even if I can use effectively most of his skills as defensive ones are tied to tactics , not to primary attribute. I just don't need to do it (as they don't) but hey, you need what - two tanks and protective monk plus three nukers for end level areas). I'm less than 3rd monk, doesn't matter if I can save you like 3/5 damage or so which turns into more than 3rd monks bar.
Anyway I like it and now I have people to play with.

I'm just overreacting on how people underestimate this class. Sat like 20 minutes in ToA yesterday thinking about FoW and I just went elsewhere. Wish I was being able to run full 8 man heroes party in FoW. Than I'll never need "SF nuker, Tank, 1 monk to go, 5/8"

Quote:

I'm not a huge fan of all the white armor (it's looks decent for females) but the only thing I condem is the fact they throw a spear and magicaly take a new one out of nowhere. Hell, rangers should bring a truck with arrows with them as well but I don't ask where they get arrows from

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

19 Jun 2007 at 14:34 - 11

I can lie arrows slide, since they are not big, it's not like the ranger throw's his whole weapon at the foe.

ArKaiN

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

Lotus Branca[Lbr]

Mo/Me

19 Jun 2007 at 22:03 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I can lie arrows slide, since they are not big, it's not like the ranger throw's his whole weapon at the foe. And also, there's plenty of wood in the game. Maybe they're making arrows as they go.
Didn't think of that, did you Mr Smarty Pants.

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

20 Jun 2007 at 00:32 - 13

draecos

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2007

20 Jun 2007 at 06:12 - 14

Hi, my main char is a para, but I just don't understand why this profession is not well received when looking for groups in DoA. I just have so much trouble having people to let me into a group, that I decided to go in myself with heroes. But the build I have is still somewhat impossible to get past the door! Any suggestions?

GeniusLoci

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

20 Jun 2007 at 08:07 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

No offense, but if you don't think Paragons are overpowered you need to hit B and go on observer mode some times.

They aren't so overpowered now, but basically they are ranged warriors with defensive buffs.

A 14-27 spear is basically a one hand 15-28 bow with no preparation buffs that attacks faster than a Shortbow. If Rangers didn't have preps or expertise, Paragons would be pushing Rangers out of their role except for interrupts. Which doesn't cry for Paragon's change but to other's tactics. But it's easy to call for nerfs. I remember that back when I played prophecies everyone feared mesmers. Were they overpowered?

Fishmonger

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

P/W

20 Jun 2007 at 16:35 - 16

ah the sweet days of the mesmer back before the nerf stick....

anywho, I agree that there are numerous profs that are shunned in PvE. Paras, 'sins, mesmers, and even rits are IMO the hardest to get a group due to them being the most difficult profs to play. think about it:

Paras are basically an armored monk with a spear. the amount of support a paragon can supply to the team is up there with some of the monk heal/prot hybrid builds I have seen. And you can still cause as much DPS as a war while doing it.

Assassins can kill ANYTHING with the right combo. ANYTHING. But their lower armor makes them very squishy if the player isn't careful.

Mesmers can do massive loads of armor ignoring dmg, but once again, combos are essential.

Rits are mainly seen channeling or spirit spamming, but their healing can run longer than any monk out there. Yet the conditionality of their skills leaves them very weak in the wrong hands.

In essence, I think you see these professions ignored in PvE and exalted in PvP due to more thought and organization going through the PvP builds than PvE (in general). And let's face it, there are a lot more new players in PvE, thus when they get in a group with arrogant players who don't think much of newbies, they generalize that all of that profession sucks due to the newbie's lower experience with the character.

but hey, maybe I'm just going insane

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

21 Jun 2007 at 21:37 - 17

paragons have some killer DPS...especially with that permenant IAS of theirs..

GeniusLoci

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

22 Jun 2007 at 08:08 - 18

I confess Mesmer is out of my reach as player. I enjoy it, but I'd never be very good. Rit and Sin - I don't yet have Factions, the trial didn't made me buy it.

As for DPS - can't say it rocks even with IAS w/o spear skills but I can apply conditions while still being more than support and with no chance running out of energy - Para's e-management is admiring and it's done w/o any effort (Addrenaline to energy is just O.o). If anything in some PvE groups a Para can pump DPS and lower significantly (around 50% of damage taken in SF groups and clear over 30% in any group) the damage taken (even against DoTs, if I drop the spear skills completely).

For now I avoid PUGging completely - there ar every few areas in NM that require more than me, 3 heroes and whatever henchies I can get. May be it's different in HM, I'll see. Paras are not hard to play (given we don't need secondary profession skills and you know the basics). Not compared to some other classes.

In a Ele part of the forum I have some observation - people want it easy. I mean they moan SF is nerfed and that it need more than itself to allow spyking. Seems to me like "hey, why I need to thing for e-management and other skills, this one has to do everything" or "it's and elite, it's supposed to do so much more". I can ask them to just take a look at other elites and their usefulness. Atm I don't even have an elite on my bar, for the build I use i'll drom the A-Refrain for Soldier's Fury later as it will give me 33% IAS and it's not hard to manage it. But then I struggle to find something better (I have an idea for blinding P/D for late game I'll look for it when I get the skills though).

Shuuda

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guildless

Me/

22 Jun 2007 at 12:10 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

And also, there's plenty of wood in the game. Maybe they're making arrows as they go.
Didn't think of that, did you Mr Smarty Pants. Actually, I did, but I don't care that much, and you really thing I'm smart, that makes me happy.