Please stop hurting the Paragons...
Sifow Chan
The Paragon's keep getting nerfs..they are hard enough to play against the other classes. I love paragons and I can't stand seeing them get worse and worse everytime the devs do profession updates :/. Everyone complains about the Necro soul reaping nerfs but what about the little paragons :'( they need some love too...
clawofcrimson
the paragon didn't really get a nerf hit this time... aside from defensive anthem... which really needed the nerf if you look at recent tournies.
...but I understand your frustration.. the class was poorly implemented... and as a result has been receiving toning down since conception.
...but I understand your frustration.. the class was poorly implemented... and as a result has been receiving toning down since conception.
Series
I still love paragons. One day hopefully Anet figures out to fix them! Great idea for a profession, poor implementation.
Onarik Amrak
Agreed... but at least Defensive Anthem is still usable. It was my usual elite in PvE cause most of the others are well... *sigh*
Series
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak
Agreed... but at least Defensive Anthem is still usable. It was my usual elite in PvE cause most of the others are well... *sigh*
The paragon elites I usually roll:
Crippling Anthem (PvP only)
Angelic Bond
Defensive Anthem
Focused Anger
It's Just a Flesh Wound
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration
Cruel Spear
Stunning Strike (PvP only)
Cautery Sig
Plenty of decent Paragon elites IMO. But that is the problem... I use the term decent literally. They aren't really anything special, but can be used in the right builds.
Crippling Anthem (PvP only)
Angelic Bond
Defensive Anthem
Focused Anger
It's Just a Flesh Wound
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration
Cruel Spear
Stunning Strike (PvP only)
Cautery Sig
Plenty of decent Paragon elites IMO. But that is the problem... I use the term decent literally. They aren't really anything special, but can be used in the right builds.
bhavv
One of the 'Never' shouts got buffed (i cant remember which is which from the names 
) 15 seconds of regen for party members near death or suffering degen for 5 energy is quite nice.
I never used defensive anthem anyway. Although I cant use watch yourself + stand your ground on morgahn anymore
) 15 seconds of regen for party members near death or suffering degen for 5 energy is quite nice.I never used defensive anthem anyway. Although I cant use watch yourself + stand your ground on morgahn anymore
Keero89
I have nothing worthy to add to the thread, so I will just say this:
When I first saw the thread title, I instantly thought "You have 80AL, you can handle it, wimp." /unworthy
When I first saw the thread title, I instantly thought "You have 80AL, you can handle it, wimp." /unworthy
klrk
the pain part for paragon is the armor skill cap
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by clawofcrimson
the paragon didn't really get a nerf hit this time... aside from defensive anthem... which really needed the nerf if you look at recent tournies.
heh and if you look at all other forms of play, defensive anthem is already underwhelming... a weaker conditional elite version of the non-elite aegis...
Age
They did it to them selves they deserve it as to the other non Paragon skills they got nerfed take WatchYouself for example.They used that to keep their chants up.They got what they deserved.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
They did it to them selves they deserve it as to the other non Paragon skills they got nerfed take WatchYouself for example.They used that to keep their chants up.They got what they deserved.
you do realize not every paragon plays tournaments right? and even that not every paragon in tournaments uses abusive builds? why don't we just say pvp paragons abused builds, so all of pvp should be nerfed to uselessness, they deserve it. right?
Age
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miral
you do realize not every paragon plays tournaments right? and even that not every paragon in tournaments uses abusive builds? why don't we just say pvp paragons abused builds, so all of pvp should be nerfed to uselessness, they deserve it. right?
It doesn't exactly work that way now does it.They are still fine for pve even if they get hit again.You go tell those player abusing the Paragon's in tournaments that.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
It doesn't exactly work that way now does it.They are still fine for pve even if they get hit again.You go tell those player abusing the Paragon's in tournaments that.
a lot of the paragon nerfs have hurt pve paragons drastically. especially the ones that nerfed ally-skills to be party member only, those were a real asset of paragons in missions where you have to guard NPCs.
and I seriously doubt pvp abusers care who they hurt. its up to anet to either take administrative action or find a better way to fix pvp without hurting pve. the only thing that will completely stop abuse in pvp is to either ban the abusers, or remove pvp. or make it so only candycane weapons and rez sig work in pvp but nerfing the skills does nothing but hurt pve paragons and have the pvp abusers just move on to a different gimmick.
and I seriously doubt pvp abusers care who they hurt. its up to anet to either take administrative action or find a better way to fix pvp without hurting pve. the only thing that will completely stop abuse in pvp is to either ban the abusers, or remove pvp. or make it so only candycane weapons and rez sig work in pvp
but nerfing the skills does nothing but hurt pve paragons and have the pvp abusers just move on to a different gimmick.
Kale Ironfist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miral
a weaker conditional elite version of the non-elite aegis
Not entirely. The fact that it can't be stripped is worth the elite slot and conditionality. Why else is Aegis chain so popular?
Tadpole Lord
Yeah, pretty much paragons have been nerfed to death when they were mediocre to begin with. My groups in pve never take paragons anymore, they are simply unneccessary in every single way. They are even more useless in pvp, so way to go Anet. Way to go...
Marth Reynolds
Interuptable chants will hurt the paras as well i think.
and they even upped defensive anthems cast time, is this screaming for interupt me or what?
I stopped playing paragons a while ago, they are quite decent but had to many nerfs, altough for team running builds i'l still want to add a para before warrior.
and they even upped defensive anthems cast time, is this screaming for interupt me or what?
I stopped playing paragons a while ago, they are quite decent but had to many nerfs, altough for team running builds i'l still want to add a para before warrior.
hopefulliness
Personally, my paragon is lying on the floor bleeding from all the nerf bat hits . He has been hit by the command attribute nerf and now the armor cap nerf... so now i guess i will just ignore the command attribute
. He has been hit by the command attribute nerf and now the armor cap nerf... so now i guess i will just ignore the command attribute
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist
Not entirely. The fact that it can't be stripped is worth the elite slot and conditionality. Why else is Aegis chain so popular?
not being stripped is a good counterbalance for the condition of not using attack skills, but its still severely weak for an elite... well, really, almost all paragon elites are... the only ones that seem to see a lot of use in PvE are cautery signet and focused anger, and the latter is just to fuel GftE...
Sol Deathgard
When NF 1st came out a couple of guildies of mine made paragons & loved them, they played until 3 am with them cause they thought that Paragons where so fun, but over the course of all the nerfs that came, they've used their paragons less and less, and one of them said the other day that even though she loves her paragon, she will be collecting dust now because she is absolutly worthless now simply because a few people in pvp figured out a good build and a few other cry babies couldn't figure out counters and cried for nerfs every single month. Once again it's a case of people that can't read their damn skills and make build that counter stuff ruining the game for the rest of us. So for everyone that comes to sites like this begging anet to nerf 1 skill or build because you are too stuipd to figure out how to beat it, F you.
Kale Ironfist
There is something wrong when all the counters to Paragons are not worth bringing into a team, because that's all they shut down. So anyone who says to learn to adapt, perhaps YOU should learn that having counters doesn't mean that it's balanced.
pork soldier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miral
and I seriously doubt pvp abusers care who they hurt. its up to anet to either take administrative action or find a better way to fix pvp without hurting pve
ROFL, you should also ask them to nerf PvE farming skills without affecting PvP....
O, hai, spirit bond. O, hai, Life Barrier.
Good luck with that
O, hai, spirit bond. O, hai, Life Barrier.
Good luck with that
Surena
I don't mind them getting nerfed, let's hope they get deleted eventually or don't see any play at all. Same with Arsesassins and their teletardway, a class which has no single use in PvE and was never needed in PvP.
Good to see that Anet learned a bit and won't release GW2 with loads of different classes and thousands of skills.
Good to see that Anet learned a bit and won't release GW2 with loads of different classes and thousands of skills.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by pork soldier
ROFL, you should also ask them to nerf PvE farming skills without affecting PvP....
O, hai, spirit bond. O, hai, Life Barrier.
Good luck with that
nerf solo-farming without touching pvp? thats easy. make heroes and henchmen not take loot, and reinstate full loot scaling with no exceptions. tadah, no more overpowered solo farmers out there, and everyone can still make money. the skills will still function perfectly, but nobody will abuse them.
O, hai, spirit bond. O, hai, Life Barrier.
Good luck with that
nerf solo-farming without touching pvp? thats easy. make heroes and henchmen not take loot, and reinstate full loot scaling with no exceptions. tadah, no more overpowered solo farmers out there, and everyone can still make money. the skills will still function perfectly, but nobody will abuse them.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
I don't mind them getting nerfed, let's hope they get deleted eventually or don't see any play at all. Same with Arsesassins and their teletardway, a class which has no single use in PvE and was never needed in PvP.
Good to see that Anet learned a bit and won't release GW2 with loads of different classes and thousands of skills. assassins rock in pve, most people just don't know how to play em. really really good at taking out big targets quickly, and taking out the healer in a group before it can get off any heals... but then I guess theres people like you who have very narrow viewpoints about how a game can be played... god forbid we have a little variety, eh?
Good to see that Anet learned a bit and won't release GW2 with loads of different classes and thousands of skills. assassins rock in pve, most people just don't know how to play em. really really good at taking out big targets quickly, and taking out the healer in a group before it can get off any heals... but then I guess theres people like you who have very narrow viewpoints about how a game can be played... god forbid we have a little variety, eh?
Surena
I never needed an Arsesassin to kill anything, and enemy monks don't get much off due to heavy AoE, not to forget that /Mesmer gives energy management and interruption at the same time (power drain, leech signet etc.), also on your monks.
Taking out single targets in PvE quickly and efficient? What a cheap justification. Why would you need that when you can roll over them?
Proving intelligence with variety doesn't work.
Taking out single targets in PvE quickly and efficient? What a cheap justification. Why would you need that when you can roll over them?
Proving intelligence with variety doesn't work.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
I never needed an Arsesassin to kill anything, and enemy monks don't get much off due to heavy AoE, not to forget that /Mesmer gives energy management and interruption at the same time (power drain, leech signet etc.), also on your monks.
Taking out single targets in PvE quickly and efficient? What a cheap justification. Why would you need that when you can roll over them?
Proving intelligence with variety doesn't work. I never specifically needed a warrior, elementalist, ranger, necro, mesmer, ritualist, or dervish to kill anything either... the only class that is specifically needed in almost all areas is the monk. should we delete all classes but monks?
Taking out single targets in PvE quickly and efficient? What a cheap justification. Why would you need that when you can roll over them?
Proving intelligence with variety doesn't work. I never specifically needed a warrior, elementalist, ranger, necro, mesmer, ritualist, or dervish to kill anything either... the only class that is specifically needed in almost all areas is the monk. should we delete all classes but monks?
Surena
Oh, big news, it's PvE! Most things work. If it works for you, fine then but what did the class add to the game positively? Variety? Please...
New classes caused loads of imbalances and brought in retarded concepts like teleporting through the map bashing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, extreme defense AND offense at the same time, godmodes like the Avatar of Melandru and Ritard spike.
New classes caused loads of imbalances and brought in retarded concepts like teleporting through the map bashing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, extreme defense AND offense at the same time, godmodes like the Avatar of Melandru and Ritard spike.
Miral
what did the assassin add to the game positively? hmm how about a counter to bodyblocking? how about A FUN EXPERIENCE? oh right forgot no one cares about fun anymore, its all about balance this, win everything, make everyone else suck
Surena
Yeah, I forgot. A corpse for minionmasters.
Do you consider fighting horribly stupid AI as FUN? Do you consider a class which only has to press "1,2,3,4,5 - OUT" as FUN?
Jesus!!!111 Noone cares about challenge anymore, it's all about farming and titles and making all the other players look bad and cheap in their noob armour!!!!!!111
Do you consider fighting horribly stupid AI as FUN? Do you consider a class which only has to press "1,2,3,4,5 - OUT" as FUN?
Jesus!!!111 Noone cares about challenge anymore, it's all about farming and titles and making all the other players look bad and cheap in their noob armour!!!!!!111
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
Yeah, I forgot. A corpse for minionmasters.
Do you consider fighting horribly stupid AI as FUN? Do you consider a class which only has to press "1,2,3,4,5 - OUT" as FUN?
Jesus!!!111 Noone cares about challenge anymore, it's all about farming and titles and making all the other players look bad and cheap in their noob armour!!!!!!111
lol most classes are just as much about "press 1 2 3 4 5 out" as an assassin is. if you worry less about what you are doing, and more about what your character is doing, maybe you'll see the point. this is an RPG, not counterstrike. RPGs promote freedom of choice.
Do you consider fighting horribly stupid AI as FUN? Do you consider a class which only has to press "1,2,3,4,5 - OUT" as FUN?
Jesus!!!111 Noone cares about challenge anymore, it's all about farming and titles and making all the other players look bad and cheap in their noob armour!!!!!!111
lol most classes are just as much about "press 1 2 3 4 5 out" as an assassin is. if you worry less about what you are doing, and more about what your character is doing, maybe you'll see the point. this is an RPG, not counterstrike. RPGs promote freedom of choice.
Surena
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miral
lol most classes are just as much about "press 1 2 3 4 5 out" as an assassin is. if you worry less about what you are doing, and more about what your character is doing, maybe you'll see the point. this is an RPG, not counterstrike. RPGs promote freedom of choice.
This game unfortunately lacks too much to be considered a RPG with freedom of choice. Speak of persistant worlds. That's to be changed with GW2 however.
The only thing an Assassin can do, his chain, that's the problem. He can't contribute much to a team. The class is just too one-dimensional. So Anet either ups the bonus damage to insane levels (remember BoS?) or recreates teleway. I would've liked them without chains, tricky like the Mesmer (in a physical way) but now it's too late to turn the wheel back and rework the mechanics, unfortunately.
The only thing an Assassin can do, his chain, that's the problem. He can't contribute much to a team. The class is just too one-dimensional. So Anet either ups the bonus damage to insane levels (remember BoS?) or recreates teleway. I would've liked them without chains, tricky like the Mesmer (in a physical way) but now it's too late to turn the wheel back and rework the mechanics, unfortunately.
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
This game unfortunately lacks too much to be considered a RPG with freedom of choice. Speak of persistant worlds. That's to be changed with GW2 however.
The only thing an Assassin can do, his chain, that's the problem. He can't contribute much to a team. The class is just too one-dimensional. So Anet either ups the bonus damage to insane levels (remember BoS?) or recreates teleway. I would've liked them without chains, tricky like the Mesmer (in a physical way) but now it's too late to turn the wheel back and rework the mechanics, unfortunately. chains actually provide a lot more dimension than the untrained eye sees... theres a lot of little chain breaks, reversals, etc that can really vary a good build. some chains even involve something else entirely, like hexing the foe instead of using a lead attack. and really, how is an assassin chain that much worse than sever artery + gash?
The only thing an Assassin can do, his chain, that's the problem. He can't contribute much to a team. The class is just too one-dimensional. So Anet either ups the bonus damage to insane levels (remember BoS?) or recreates teleway. I would've liked them without chains, tricky like the Mesmer (in a physical way) but now it's too late to turn the wheel back and rework the mechanics, unfortunately. chains actually provide a lot more dimension than the untrained eye sees... theres a lot of little chain breaks, reversals, etc that can really vary a good build. some chains even involve something else entirely, like hexing the foe instead of using a lead attack. and really, how is an assassin chain that much worse than sever artery + gash?
Surena
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miral
chains actually provide a lot more dimension than the untrained eye sees... theres a lot of little chain breaks, reversals, etc that can really vary a good build. some chains even involve something else entirely, like hexing the foe instead of using a lead attack. and really, how is an assassin chain that much worse than sever artery + gash?
The sever-gash can overextend, bring utility, disrupt, KD without a chain (the win) and if he can't sever-gash (or the combo failed) he can just autoattack and still be a threat, unlike spiking every 20 seconds or by waving the hex-flag (ELLO! TIS IS EXPOWZ!!)
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surena
The sever-gash can overextend, bring utility, disrupt, KD without a chain (the win) and if he can't sever-gash (or the combo failed) he can just autoattack and still be a threat, unlike spiking every 20 seconds or by waving the hex-flag (ELLO! TIS IS EXPOWZ!!)
hehe some stances and enchants can actually make assassin autoattack quite deadly... high dagger mastery and high crit strikes with something to increase crit chance even more, add in sundering daggers... it can cause some real pain.
but really your kind of working towards the opposite point here... in that the classes are already underwhelming and yet they nerf em more and more... but this thread is about paragons, the biggest victim of it, so should probably stop the assassin debate heh
but really your kind of working towards the opposite point here... in that the classes are already underwhelming and yet they nerf em more and more... but this thread is about paragons, the biggest victim of it, so should probably stop the assassin debate heh
artay
Give paragons some love, it must be hard running around in those tight skirts. (especially for the boys)
Miral
Quote:
Originally Posted by artay
Give paragons some love, it must be hard running around in those tight skirts. (especially for the boys)
heh especially considering they're made of metal eh?
-Byron-
The current crop of Paragons elites are not horrible, but they are no where near as good as those of any other class.
Although there are many, many ways to play a Paragon, but many of these roles are not exclusive to the Paragon. Its no wonder Paragons are marginalized by other classes and the general PVE community (however ignorantly); the class has almost no cookie-cutter builds. Paragons are usually reduced in PVE to playing supplemental, niche roles.
A point, though not conclusive, can be seen simply by going to Guildwiki and counting the PVE Paragon builds; there are only 5 of them, considerably less than any other class. Furthermore, three out of the five are merely melee paragons using warrior/dervish skills.
The small number of fresh,viable builds severely limit options and fun, while the ridiculous number of trash skills for a class with so few plague cripple build creativity. Very frustrating indeed.
This update was not as harmful to PVE Paragons as it could have been (defensive anthem's advantages over aegis are diminished over aegis in pve anyway). But its very aggravating for them not to fix the current situation.
Although there are many, many ways to play a Paragon, but many of these roles are not exclusive to the Paragon. Its no wonder Paragons are marginalized by other classes and the general PVE community (however ignorantly); the class has almost no cookie-cutter builds. Paragons are usually reduced in PVE to playing supplemental, niche roles.
A point, though not conclusive, can be seen simply by going to Guildwiki and counting the PVE Paragon builds; there are only 5 of them, considerably less than any other class. Furthermore, three out of the five are merely melee paragons using warrior/dervish skills.
The small number of fresh,viable builds severely limit options and fun, while the ridiculous number of trash skills for a class with so few plague cripple build creativity. Very frustrating indeed.
This update was not as harmful to PVE Paragons as it could have been (defensive anthem's advantages over aegis are diminished over aegis in pve anyway). But its very aggravating for them not to fix the current situation.
Theus
At this point,making Paragon Shouts not effect other Paragon's doesn't sound so bad,as long as the Paragon's obtain the effectiveness of what their shouts used to be,I'd be all for it.Especially for skills like "Incoming!" to be fixed so it can be used in PvP to directly counter spike builds.
But alas,theres a Great chance that isn't going to happen.
On a different note..when you first found out about the Shout/Chanting/Echoing of a Paragon,did you immediately thought of it as a sort of Bard class?That was one of the main reasons why I wanted to play it so much..but now..after all the nerfing,not so much.
But alas,theres a Great chance that isn't going to happen.
On a different note..when you first found out about the Shout/Chanting/Echoing of a Paragon,did you immediately thought of it as a sort of Bard class?That was one of the main reasons why I wanted to play it so much..but now..after all the nerfing,not so much.
ArKaiN
Jesus Christ this class got the shaft today. Your best skill is one that any class with high sunspear can use as effectively or better. Jesus, that was just cruel.
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArKaiN
Jesus Christ this class got the shaft today. Your best skill is one that any class with high sunspear can use as effectively or better. Jesus, that was just cruel.
The difference being that while it's a 15 energy skill for most classes, it costs less due to Leadership. That and the skill has better synergy with a paragon bar that may contain chants which work with shouts.
I'm not really sure what you are worried about. I've never heard of people having trouble finding a PuG just because they were a Paragon. Most of the time when someone can't find a PuG, it's because so many people Hero and Hench the game that PuGs are pretty few and far between.
I'm not really sure what you are worried about. I've never heard of people having trouble finding a PuG just because they were a Paragon. Most of the time when someone can't find a PuG, it's because so many people Hero and Hench the game that PuGs are pretty few and far between.