ANet, you've lost yourself a customer

Ayan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

KoR

Mo/E

Old Ideals
  • Balanced skills
  • Variation in builds
  • No grinding

When I first read about GuildWars it was all that I could dream for. Not only did it have no monthly fee, which was a pre-requirement for me. It also was loosely based on Magic The Gathering in the way it was balanced. The ideology of the game was balance, variaton and no grinding. Amazing, everything I could wish for. With the innovative system of both skillsets and dual proffessions the possibilities were endless. You were able to play your character in so many ways and still be succesful at what you are doing, the possibilities were endless. Being able to compete with other players in both PvE and PvP sounded like a blessing aswell, no longer did I have to spend hours and hours just to do as well as my allies or enemies, it was a game that resolved around skill atleast, that was the promise.

Things started our promising, especialy the early areas of the game were quite a challenge if you weren't powerleveling, something non-existant now, but there actualy were players that were playing old-ascalon at level 5. Other then the gorgeous graphics the opposing groups were quite a challenge with the infuse health monks standing behind them, learning us the first important lesson that it's important to go for the monks first. After about half a year of playing Sorrows Furnace came out, it contained powerful groups with strong healers and good team synergy, it didn't take much to figure out how to beat it, but it lasted for a long time and everyone that I know enjoyed that area by far the most, both the setting and just the overall challenge.

Elite Areas after Sorrows Furnace
  • Numeric balance, difficulty is purely based on numbers
  • Enemy groups have a bad balance proffesion wise
  • Enemy groups have bad skill sets with low synergy
  • Mindless enemies don't require innovative tactics, new skillsets or proffesions like Assasins or Mesmers

Future "elite" areas unfortunatly didn't over the same experience. Instead of balancing the game in a way that it gets harder because the enemies become smarter, use better skills, synergize better together or just have better reflexes/timing they got numeric buffs, meaning that instead of fighting a 500 HP enemy you were fighting a 1000 HP enemy now, and instead of 100 damage you take 200 damage, for me a big dissapointment. I know numerous of people have been pleading to play more intelligent groups, but either ANet disagreed with it or didn't care enough about PvE to implent it, because it never happened. From Tomb of Primeval Kings, to The Deep/Urgoz, to Domain of Anguish, the trend has been the same, granted you needed a slight modification in strategy, it wasn't the intelligence of enemies that caused this, or their amazing skillsets, only the numeric values got increased and that is ANet's definition of hard. Well yeah.. it's hard alright, I'll give you that much.

Because enemies never got smarter, the skillbars never required much adjustment. Tactics aren't needed, nor is a gameplan, the same logic generally applies for each group in guildwars PvE. With the potential of a 1000 builds on a character, you only see just a couple because the others are quite simply outclassed in PvE. This is much less the case in PvP because the enemies actualy use logic in this, something that the AI in GuildWars is capable off aswell, henchies use it, aswell as the AI in the Zaishen challenge. But alright I've already been over that. So you get parties consisting of already decided skillbars otherwise you don't get a group. Sure, it's not entirely ANet's fault, I mean it's still the peoples choice. However, why would you take a risk, waste your time with something that works slower or worse causes your group to die? I totally understand the people that only use the cookie cutter builds, and by no means, go on with it, the PvE game is designed like this, a couple of builds just are far superior and that has to do with game design, and just the power of the skills.

A lot of skills could be buffed, but then there's PvP which always has taken the priority over PvE, just looking at for instance the elites for Necromancers, you only see 2 really used, Spiteful Spirit and Flesh Golem, making other skills PvE worthy would be easily done but then PvP would get imbalanced. Skills do get buffed for PvP but not for PvE and the same counts for nerfing, when was the last time that something got nerfed for PvE because it was too powerful? Exactly, does ANet even care?

I had my hopes up high for DoA, but it was nothing compared to my hopes for Hard Mode, only to have them trashed as soon as it came out, it was supposed to be an entirely new challenge harder whatnot, but it just followed the same course that ANet has been following eversince ToPK. It's not like I would want every mob in the game to be smart with good skill sets. But would it hurt when 2 or 3 mobs in a mission have a skillset and party setup similar to my own? That doesn't sound too unrealistic.

And this is directly related to why both Assassins and Mesmers aren't needed in PvE, there's no need to mesmerize anything, there's no need to assassinate anything. The enemies don't use advanced enough tactics to reserve a spot for either class in your party setup. And instead of fixing the actual problem, ANet now is trying to make them do things that are outside their job discription. Meaning that mesmers suddenly turn into Elementalist like AOE damagers, and Assassins compare to Warriors and Dervishes with ANets latest update: PvE Skills.

PvE Skills
  • Clearly more powerful then their normal counterparts
  • With so many and more comming there won't be a lot of room to innovate
  • Lightbringer title requires grinding, something that ANet was opposed to before
  • The new skills require grinding

These PvE Skills are unquestionably more powerful then their normal counterparts. Again, Anet uses the old trick of numeric balance, if an Assassin isn't working well because of 60 armor, give them a skill that increases their armor pretty much permanently! It makes sense.. except that it makes various of the skills already available suddenly a whole less viable. Going on on the assassin example, with the new sunspear PvE skills they are able to DPS and tank like a warrior, how is it still an assassin this way? What about the deadly skills line that was barely on par with the Dagger/Crits line? Why does ANet keep limiting the usefulness of other skills in comparison?

It started with the sunspear rebirth signet, something that never should leave someones bar as it's in all ways superior to the res signet. Then there was Lightbringers Gaze which did the most amazing thing for its cost, allowing everyone to potentially be an interrupter. Then came, the Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon skills. So that's 4.... four skills on your skillbar already taken if you want to be as effective as possible. If you're for instance an elementalist two other spots are taken for sure aswell, one for the attunement, one for GoLE and basically there is room for 2 skills in which you can innovate. ANet, this is a direct result of the PvE skills you have added, with everything you have added and changed (or lack of) you force people to play with a certain skill set if they want to play with other players at all.

What's even more interesting is that these skills require you to farm, or better said grind this might be me, but the reason why I bought this game is because of the original ideoligy that you would not need to grind in this game. It starterd with the lightbringer title, that made you more effective in PvE compared to someone who hasn't farmed. Now you're doing it again with Sunspear Skills and Kurzick/Luxon skills. Anet, why are you moving so far away from your original concept that was perfectly fine? And I know things are going to get worse, GW:EN is going to add even more PvE skills and if it follows the path ANet has taken, they are going to be far superior PvE skills leaving no room at all for innovation or interesting builds anymore. The original concept seems to have been forgotten, or just simply thrown away.

After DoA was released I stopped Guildwars for a while, I couldn't believe that this much anticipated area just used the same formula again with a few adjustment, I predicted back then that it would just be another area with one cookie cutter build, I'm not much of a fortune teller but it was a no brainer, with such numeric "difficulty" to the point that your entire team gets killed in just one hit you create a static enviroment where only certain skillsets will be effective. Like I said, I had really high hopes for hard modes, but those were also shattered.

I don't know wether I should give GW:EN a chance, maybe ANet is going to take another way, but I don't want to get my hopes up again. And all clues given so far indicate that it will be about titles (read, grinding) and PvE skills (less room for innovation) which was exactly the reason why I didn't want all those other games.

ANet, or a representative, if you've read this entire thing, I hope you do something with the points I have made, I know that it's better to hear praise as a developper, but I do feel there are serious flaws in this game that need fixing. The group that enjoys PvE and normally really isn't that vocal. The group that likes to create builds and likes to try out all the possibilities that guildwars has to offer, I feel like it's that group that you originally appealed a lot to, but it has been going downhill.

Don't get me wrong GuildWars has given me a very enjoyable experience for a long time, and even though a lot of the updates have dissapointed me enormously there have been a lot of good times aswell,

Knights of Rurik represent,

Naz

KANE OG

KANE OG

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2005

Ogmios Graybeards

W/

Couldn't be bothered to read thru the entire post, and I'm looking forward to reading the flames directed at you. Good luck at whatever game you try next. I have my own thread to start to try and fix things here. Later and GL.

KANE

notskorn

notskorn

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

Clan Roxor

W/E

Actually you already paid for all three games so they just lost someone who was taking up bandwidth, gg.

XvArchonvX

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

You wanna write a letter to A-net? Then go write a letter to A-net. Wasting space on this forum with your QQ complaining will solve nothing. Don't worry though, I won't miss you one bit when you stop playing GW.

Mad King Corn

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2006

Quote:
when was the last time that something got nerfed for PvE because it was too powerful? Exactly, does ANet even care?
Beleive it or not they are doing it with the new skills they just released for PVE only, which is crazy. So I am with you except I may still play awhile longer with my current characters but I won't be buying EOTN or GW2, To give us decent skills finally then to suddenly take them away is just too much, especially since these new skills do not affect PVP at all. What the hell is the point of Anet releasing these skills in the first place, they were supposed to be good skills to make up for all we lost to PVP.
Hopefully more people will vote with their wallets and let them know that we do care about our game and want it to be fun.

Curse You

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

From the Forum Rules and Guidelines

2. Blogs

Guild Wars Guru is primarily a gaming site dedicated to the ArenaNet and NCSoft games of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, and subsequent upcoming chapters. As such, it is not our function to provide bandwidth for personal blogs and threads detailing every minute aspect of members' lives. There are literally hundreds of other more appropriate places and services available for users to keep a running chronicle for themselves and others.

Second and equally important: Please think carefully before posting highly personal information about yourself. It is always wise to remain mindful of the flame potential that such threads engender in other members.


Now where's an Admin when you need one?

EDIT: Who says you have to take Lightbringer's Gaze? Last I checked, it only works on Demons. It's not going to be helping me when I go fight Am Fa.

=DNC=Trucker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

TLA

Me/


I agree with every statement, especially about HM being just an increase in numerics...

vaxmor

vaxmor

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Ascalon

R/

can I have your stuff?

Ayan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

KoR

Mo/E

I'm sorry, I had no intention to blog. Believe it or not my only intention is a last resort to have an improved game in the end, yes, even for those people that felt like flaming me.

I don't ask anyone to care about me, if that's all you got out of the post you haven't read much of it, which is alright, I don't ask anyone but ANet employees to read the entire post. Maybe they find it helpful, maybe they don't, I've made an attempt at improving the game I once loved to death.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

wow some bed time reading

To be honest it's too late to read through all that but as notskorn pointed out you have paid for the chapters you have played and guess you had all three souly on the amout to write about - therefore you have paid Anet

icymanipulator

icymanipulator

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curse You
From the Forum Rules and Guidelines

2. Blogs

Guild Wars Guru is primarily a gaming site dedicated to the ArenaNet and NCSoft games of Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, and subsequent upcoming chapters. As such, it is not our function to provide bandwidth for personal blogs and threads detailing every minute aspect of members' lives. There are literally hundreds of other more appropriate places and services available for users to keep a running chronicle for themselves and others.

Second and equally important: Please think carefully before posting highly personal information about yourself. It is always wise to remain mindful of the flame potential that such threads engender in other members.


Now where's an Admin when you need one?
I liked this point but they should add something to it...

If the internet could be described as a human being, blogs would be the perineum a.k.a. the taint.

Alas Poor Yorick

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
You wanna write a letter to A-net? Then go write a letter to A-net. Wasting space on this forum with your QQ complaining will solve nothing. Don't worry though, I won't miss you one bit when you stop playing GW.
Excuse me? Anet has specified they do not want people contacting them directly with complaints etc - they direct people to post on the boards.

This is exactly what ANet tells us to do - post here.

And, yes, ANet does need to know when they lose customers - the future development of games depends on how many customers they are able to attract and keep. If they lose too many customers, the players will eventual lose because no new games will be able to be developed.

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

And GWGuru specify they don't want this on here...

Looks like we have ourselves a dilemma.

It makes me wonder if this guy has actually bothered ot look at these new Sunspear/Allegiance skills. LB Gaze, albeit good, isn't vital. Most of the time i forget to include the damn skill whenever i go into the RoT. The new skills? Bullshit. Some of them aren't even worth mentioning outside of tailored builds.... hell some of them just aren't even worth mentioning (Ether Nightmare anyone?). Nobody is forcing you to take them. The only exceptions are probably the Elementalist who is gonna be pretty much forced into taking Intensity and Elemental thingy no matter what since they're so obviously stupidly powerful.

Aera Lure

Aera Lure

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

In Baltar's head

Bring Out Your Dead [BOYD], former officer [LBS]

Mo/

I couldnt read all that on a monitor. I fall asleep when I read books in bed so it would be hazardous for me to do it at a desk, BUT, I scanned it and this is what I saw:

ANet, you've lost yourself a customer

skill
are
four
grind
more


Edit: omg no, you changed your bolding in your post and now ruined my little humor here lol.

From this I theorize you are unhappy about the new skills involving some grind. I am also supported in my deduction by the fact that your post comes some 27 hours or so after said PvE skill update. On subsequent scan, this indeed seems to be the case. Next.

Seriously though, sorry you feel that way. I cant say I disagree completely, really. Grind caused me to "quit/retire" once already. I failed to stay in retirement. We will see how long that lasts, but I am looking at the game with a new angle, and that is "fun." I do my best now in that context and if it gets tedious again I shall leave again.

Grind in this game is really pretty bad since unlike other MMO's the grind gives you nothing. Zilch. Nana. Zip. Just titles you can show and maybe some changes in skins you wear or equip. Dont get me wrong, titles and skins are fun. To a point anyway. New content to explore more often would be nicer though, as always.

I believe these skills now are a small concession to ameliorate some of the lack of reward for grind and actually give some small rewards to it. Especially true for the faction title track skills. For better or for worse. Anet is really in a hard spot either way on this point. Without frequent new content they need to provide something to do and that can conflict with the original goal of no grind in the game quite easily without frequent new content. Most titles are a bit grindy (some are a blast - Protector and Guardian to name a couple, imho). The new faction-based skills certainly involve a lot of grind, but at least you dont have to have them above level 1-2 to use them somewhat well.

Anyway. Godspeed.

GodofAcid

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Massachusetts, USA

E/

Just a suggestion: I think you'd be better served to condense this by trimming off some of your points, or if they're too important to remove, use bullet points with a shortened description of why you're unhappy. This post is just a bit too long to hold the attention of most people on these forums. I'm sure you made some good points, but alot of them will be lost because of that.

Shendaar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n

W/

I read it all and I agree with 95% of the stuff in there. His reasons for leaving are the same that lead me to stop PvEing for the most part. Sadly the PvP side of the game isn't doing too good either.

Ayan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

KoR

Mo/E

Taken your advice, I guess I got carried away when posting.

Kamatsu

Kamatsu

Moderator

Join Date: May 2005

Australia

Seeing as this is basically a whine, personal blog and "I'm quitting" thread.. (and has been pointed out, blog's aren't allowed by our rules. We also don't allow "I'm quitting" threads, and rants/whines generally only attract flames & thus get removed/closed as well)

Thread closed.