Why is PvE and PvP in Guild Wars so seperate?

As a PvPvEr (thats my word for I do both PvE and PvP ) sometimes I get confused at some of the hate, rage and flaming going on. With the coming of these new PvE I wanted to reflect on the PvP vs PvE debate.

In a lot of games PvE is often a preparation for PvP and used as a way of telling of a story. But Guild Wars is different, PvP and PvE are almost entirely different. Why? Anet wanted PvP and PvE to be very similiar. They've said it themselves on multiple occassions that this was their vision and if you look at the elonian missions you can see similiars to HA.

So why is PvE so different from PvP? Simple, Dumb AI, Crappy builds and stronger ememies and numberous ememies. In PvP it's all about outplaying your oppenent and creating a better build. In PvE the monsters are stronger then you but their also dumber then you so you have to outsmart them (which is pretty easy to do ) and endure the 100s mobs that are throwen at you. So really PvE and PvP have 2 different tactics and seperate build to complete them.

The final question is "Why hasn't Anet changed PvE to make it like PvP?". If your a die-hard PvE then you probably already know the answer. PvErs don't what their world changed. If Anet changed it then there would be HUGE community backlash.

Don't believe me? Remember the when the Flee from AoE AI added to the game? Remember the endless threads flaming Anet because they "ruined" they're style of play? I remember I also think I know what ended the threads.

Warrior: ARRRGG I HATE YOU ANET
Crowd: ARRG UNDO THE CHANGE
Warrior 2: No wait guys we can use Glads Defense and it still works
Warrior: huh? COOL!
Monk: Well what about us?
Warrior 2: I hear you can you can use Shield of Judgement
Monk: O LETS FARM THE GRIFFONS!!
Crowd: KILL THE GRIFFONS!!
Ele: No Wait guys what about the echo nukers
Monk: Why don't you use the one hit AoE skills
Ele: O..
Monk: and I hear Meteor shower doesn't trigger the AI
Ele: OK sweet man for a minuite there I thought I would be rejected by all PuGs and forced to go with henchman, I wonder what that would feel like.
Mesmer: I can tell you......


So he's a few questions for you guys:

Do you think Anet should have put more effort into making PvE more like PvP before the game was released?

Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvE in GW:EN?

Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvEin GW2?

I think anet will procede on their course right now:: Dumb down pvp till its the same level as pve ^_^

Yes, yes, and yes. They've already shown they can do it to an extent with the zaishen arena, or the luxon quest in which you fight in some arena or another.

The game is fun when it's hard and mentally engaging. I don't think there's been a single AI update that I've been displeased with.

*Prepares for everyone to scream for retard monsters that die in one click and explode in phat lewts*

as a side note

This made me laugh hard enough to spill my drink. You owe me a new carpet.

There's a pretty simple answer for this imo. AI at this moment in time is simply not advanced enough, and especially mob/game AI. They can do some neat tricks with it for sure, but it will always remain AI. Thus, it can be made difficult, but it will always (as far as I know) have some kind of pattern, some kind of skillset that you can arm yourself against etc.

Playing versus another human is different, since you can try to predict him/her, or trying to force counteractions (tactics), but it wont have a set pattern carved into programmer lines.

Another counter question I believe Izzy said once: Do you really want to make PvE like PvP, do you want every mob encounter to last for 15-25 minutes?
And.. if you make them 'too perfect', you'll be screaming of imbalanced game structure etc. ;p (its not fun if you cant win)

the problem is if pve were like pvp the content would be pretty dull. you'd just have groups of 8 monsters and thats it. thats your mission, kill these 8 people. oh look another mission... kill these other 8 people. damn. it works for turn-based RPGs like final fantasy, but in a game like guild wars, that would make PvE dull I think.

1. No

In fact, PvE and PvP should be either very different creatures entirely, or molded together into one game. Right now, it's neither. PvP is in an entirely separate area than PvE, has it's own rules (RA is random, HA has specific rules per map, GvG is ranked battles with very chess-like kill the king style play, etc.), and even has it's own way of starting and equipping characters.

Because GW is non-instanced, you can't just "go fight" anywhere in Tyria, anytime you want. You can't fight others to gain land, fight for a quest, go head to head in a dungeon over who gets to move on, whatever. You have to actually exit the PvE area, and get transported to a PvP arena, where all these rules come into play. It's a sport, not a life-and-death struggle or epic battle built into the RPG element.

So because of how GW was made, with this separation hard coded, then the separation should have been more defined - clearly it's two separate games. Though things like skill balances and the WaW system, meaninglessly affect both sides at the same time, and create friction.

Besides all that, PvE is defined by the storyline, exploration of a vast world, mass amounts of increasingly more powerful mobs (that make us feel good when we wipe from the face of Tyria), and of course, loot. When you suggest to make the mobs more like PvP groups, like the Zaishen, you also suggest either less groups overall (no more "yay I killed 200 monsters!" feelings), or simply a lot more time to do plain adventuring, questing, beating the game, etc.

A challenge in PvE is fine, but so is enjoying the game casually. GW was designed initially with the casual player in mind, and fighting 50 8-monster groups with rezzes just to make it to the next town is not my idea of casual fun in the least.

2. Better AI, fine. A decent, full 8 skillbar, fine. But keep the rezzes for high-end mobs (and only certain ones, like how Desolation+ already is), and keep the difficulty relatively the same as it is now (there are easy areas, and there are hard areas, and there is areas in-between)

3. I have no problems with this, as long as, like I said above, there are easy/medium/hard areas balanced with the AI and good skillbars.

Exactly, that too. People hate the "fedex" quests because they are dull like that. I don't want everything in the PvE/RPG side to be solely kill kill kill. Nothing but 8-on-8 5-10 minute battles all the way to Abaddon is not my idea of fun in the least.

No, if I wanted things more like PvP then I would play more PvP instead of PvE.

Yes! I think they should focus more on making better builds for the AI and increasing the AI intelligence. Setting up different builds per profession that gets loaded into creatures of that profession when you enter that map so they have more varity.

See above.


How about the first implementation of the AOE scatter where the AI was running away if you cast "Conjure Phantasm" on them. Though I kinda liked that for a very short while with my monk and calling "I'm casing Banish on X" and see them running away.

Because that's not what their customer base demands. If you've been paying attention to these boards in recent months, the PvE community does not want a compelling, challenging PvE game, but "WoW without a monthly fee". Hence the repeated calls to separate PvE and PvP entirely (so that PvE could degenerate into another dumb grind game), the predictable responses to the balance changes and new PvE win buttons, etc.

Basically, someone realized that they'd make a lot more money as "WoW without a monthly fee" than as a complicated game, so they're separating the gametypes and giving the masses what they want.

I'll commend A.Net for making a good business decision for once.

I hate being in the minority that likes PvP and PvE intertwining.

I would love it if PvE mobs had more of the same skills players had (8 skills, including an elite + res) and less imbalanced skills (call of torment) as well as properly mixed mob types with offense, defense, buff, debuff and not overpowered with 10 levels above the player.

I would love it if PvP was more intergrated into the PvE of the game. More involved in the storyline, quests, missions.

I love the concept of "Skill is more important than Time spent".

I wish more people considered GW as "One game" where you can jump from farming, missions, quests, or PvP without missing a beat.

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I think it really falls down to what Anet originally wanted to make versus what the audience that they attracted want.

Theres 2 ways to go about it.

1) Stay true to your vision, and attempt to attract the audience you originally wanted.
or
2) Change the game to suit your audience.


The smart business choice is #2.

Sorta, but no, the game(s) came out wonderfully IMO (Factions was a bit odd, but it was still a great game)

They already did sorta, it's called Hard Mode. Though Yes, I think they should deck out the mobs with some better equipment and skillz.

Yep. I think GW2 is their chance to blend PvE and PvP more.

That's a really good idea, make monster groups like human groups in PvP, and be closer to the same level, but be smarter and more skilled, so it's like PvP pretty much, but instead you're fighting monsters who are like real players. Though, with this I think you would have to have less groups on monsters, other wise it'd be like doing 10+ TA matches just to get to another area.

^That idea sounds great, make monster groups just like player groups, with 8 skills, an elite, a rez, and stuff like that, so it's like PvP, yet you're fighting more (though it's not as hard/long as a PvP battle)

edit - ive removed my post because it was a bit off topic and not useful to the thread

If you checked any public forums in sites like gamespot.com or anything similar, ppl who ask for advice for best MMO without WoW grinding philosophy the best answer you always get is GW. This is the gold element that attract many to have GW (also no monthly fee ofc), because GW doesn't have chance if it came to WoW grinding and tried to emulate it.

GW till now offers nice moderate grinding lvl without spending months to achieve what you are looking for, on the other hand you aren't missing any fun of this game if you tried to stay away from this grinding.

I have always wanted a harder AI. I really liked the "run from AoE" update. Actually I used AoE on my mesmer, that lava font skill, when I was surrounded by a group of enemies. They ran away and I could continue with what I was doing. It put elementalist on a more even playing field with the other characters and the running gave a lot of advatages, such as the enemies weren't doing anything while running.

I wish PvE was more like PvP, would be a lot more fun and more replayable. The hardest part of PvE is when a mob of 20 or so enemies lvl 28 come and beat down your party for a minute or two. Less huge mobs and more skillful mobs.

Some skills are great for sweep a zone with loads of mobs, but become a bit strong to kill lesser but smarter sprites (other players), so, defeated players complain about a abusive build/skill and force a balance update.

OK, people aint complaining anymore at the arenas while the PvE part of the game suffers the consequences of it. And most of the skill buffs (PvP oriented) are futile in PvE.

Instead of successive skill nerfs on the very mechanics of the game, at least ANet is finally realizing that these two portions of the game cannot be 100% equal and are implementing PvE-only skills, a good choice imho.

But theres still some work to do. As previously stated, PvE is basically a more fun, moderate challenged. While PvP focus ultimately on challenge and adrenalin.

Theres two different types of customers...some, like me, are just compelled to wack a few mobs, exploring a map, following a story, get some loot, etc..just for kicks

In other hand, other customers are extremely competitive, and fell themselves rewarded only by the defeat of other fellow human players. They thrive on the increasing and constant challenge and pressure that PvP throws in. Or maybe they want to satisfy their Ego proving that are more skilled than others. One can only guess.

Two different customers+Two different foes+ Two different rewards= Two different worlds.

ANet has acomplished a great feat so far trying to satisfy both worlds, but lately, the balance is tending too much for the PvP portion and leaving the PvE customer very unpleased. The Equilibrium needs to be restored.

"Do you think Anet should have put more effort into making PvE more like PvP before the game was released?"

No, imo PvP sucks. I dislike competition and I just wanna kill some monsters and get rich and stuff.

"Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvE in GW:EN?"

No, Monsters are there to be killed. Monsters aren't smart. If they were, they would've had cities and cars.

"Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvEin GW2?"

No, Monsters are there to be killed. In PvP, fighting and killing 8 people is good, I think. But in PvP, wasting 10 minutes to just kill 8 monsters is worthless. Monsters come in way bigger groups, have more armor, health, firepower, reflexes and they even look cool. Don't overpower them even more, or give us our old-school builds back, instead of balancing them to be good in PvP, and worthless in PvE.


PvE = Killing loads of monsters who have almost no individual strenght or weakness. A mesmer and necromancer will die just as fast in a double meteor shower. And that's how it's supposed to be. Spending 10 minutes for each group of monsters is just stupid. Especially since the game whines about playing too much. Skills that target 1 target and do no damage are most of the time useless (hence the mesmer hate).

PvP = Killing individual targets. You don't attack 20 creatures at the same time, but only 1. Skills that do AoE damage are about useless here.

Ohh, and updates for PvE makes the PvP crowd mad ("They got a whole world and even more, and we don't get anything! PvP is dead!")

And PvP updates make PvE crowd mad ("Ffs another one of my builds destroyed. Stop nerfing my professions A-Net! PvE is dead!")

See? It's contradicting. PvE and PvP are 2 different things. You can't balance them, even though A-Net tries.

To answer the thread title, because both require very different amounts of skill and dedication, and one of them is pretty hard to get into.
PvE only skills. First step to balancing PvP while keeping PvEers happy.

personally ide like to see better skill sets on pve mobs and ditch some of the more overpowered skills (like call of torment as it was stated) of course improved AI one bit at a time which a-net does anyways, and a re-balancing of mobs so instead of having 4 or 5 of the same thing you have maybe 1 or 2 of each class in a mob. As it is right now even in hard mode i can take 3-4 ele's (depending if i am on my Ele or not) 1 MM and 2 monks with the last slot being whatever and completely steam roll an entire area. The increased attack speed and movement speed makes for pretty good churning earth and unsteady ground bait for anything i cast it on. So now i would call that rather imbalanced and its boring as hell. For the past maybe...month or two i haven't had too much incetive to play PvE and lately and since PvP had turned into a gimmick fest not too much of a reason to play that either (especially since i got a bambi =D). But as for PvP and PvE being different which is the entire point of the thread....i'de like to see maybe some similar scenery between the two such as additional RA and TA maps, areas in PvE that more represent the Hall of Heroes (other than going to Tombs) and maybe even having the RA and TA arenas open up for PvE players to go into a gauntlet style match with a few mobs and a uber uber high lvl baddie that is randomized upon entrance. just my $.02

In PvE, you know exactly what to expect, even if it means dying after every group just to memorize exactly what it is you're facing. You bring the right build, memorize enemy patterns, and before long you've 'mastered' that area. Ultimately it ends up teaching little about actual game mechanics, as pressure situations requiring quick adaptation are few and far between.

The best analogy I can think of would be that of an RTS like Command and Conquer, or any other RTS for that matter. You can play against AI all you want, finish the game on whatever difficulty, but go online versus another player and that experience means little. In fact you'll find out that your experience vs AI was basically just to teach you what the units are and how to build them. When it comes to apdating to a pressure situation, or truly understanding the game mechanics, it usually requires a live opponent. Only when you've been beaten by an equal, will you begin to examine the intricacies of the game to gain any advantage, however small, against the competition.

The same could be said of Guild Wars. I think there's definitely a tendency to become complacent towards PvE once you've 'mastered' an area. After all, once you've reached that stage, improvement is not considered essential. In PvP however, against an equal opponent, it forces players who strive to improve to examine the game on another level. Sure players can just wiki an efficient build, the same as you can a good build order in C&C, but those same players are usually beaten by those who inherently understand why that build is superior.

In PvE, you only need to reach a level that is good enough, in order to have success. It's just the limitation of AI. For this reason, growth of (most) PvE only players is handicapped at a certain level. In PvP, there is no such thing as good enough. You're good enough just after you've won first place in GWC or GWFC. That's about it

It's this kind of opinion that really ruins most RPGs for me. There really are a lot of us out there who don't like repeatedly clicking until everything explodes in shiny loot. For me, and a lot of other players, this is about as fun as, well, sitting still and repeatedly clicking a mouse. There's no skill, challenge, or any mental activity that your brain stem isn't fully capable of performing. Heck, I don't even need to buy a game to click over and over. I don't even need a computer for that matter, all I need is a mouse and someone to tell me I'll get something really valuable if I keep clicking.

As you put it, you're right. There is no way to balance PvE so that's it's retarded without screwing PvP. Hence, the addition of stupidly overpowered PvE-only skills to get around this.

Why they are so separate is because one is something that a normal average player can play and enjoy - PVE. And one is something that for the most part only a hardcore e-sport (a word the Guild Wars makers often use to describe GW PVP) type of player using hardcore third-party voice chat programs just to play the game would enjoy - PVP. Although I'm sure the GW makers would (and have said) that isn't so --- because it's bad PR to say "The PVP side of our game is only for hardcore e-sport players to enjoy", but that is the case even despite them saying it is not so. Probably a main reason they they pointed out that in GW2 you won't feel like a newbie for playing in the World vs. World PVP. Because in GW1 you definitely will if you are not hardcore.

Of course there are a few non-serious PVE areas that do not require hardcore e-sport type of players (RA, FA, AB), but those are considered "scrub PVP". For the most part, GW PVP caters only to the hardcore, and the hardcore is not something that most people bought the game for.