Why is PvE and PvP in Guild Wars so seperate?

As a PvPvEr (thats my word for I do both PvE and PvP ) sometimes I get confused at some of the hate, rage and flaming going on. With the coming of these new PvE I wanted to reflect on the PvP vs PvE debate.

In a lot of games PvE is often a preparation for PvP and used as a way of telling of a story. But Guild Wars is different, PvP and PvE are almost entirely different. Why? Anet wanted PvP and PvE to be very similiar. They've said it themselves on multiple occassions that this was their vision and if you look at the elonian missions you can see similiars to HA.

So why is PvE so different from PvP? Simple, Dumb AI, Crappy builds and stronger ememies and numberous ememies. In PvP it's all about outplaying your oppenent and creating a better build. In PvE the monsters are stronger then you but their also dumber then you so you have to outsmart them (which is pretty easy to do ) and endure the 100s mobs that are throwen at you. So really PvE and PvP have 2 different tactics and seperate build to complete them.

The final question is "Why hasn't Anet changed PvE to make it like PvP?". If your a die-hard PvE then you probably already know the answer. PvErs don't what their world changed. If Anet changed it then there would be HUGE community backlash.

Don't believe me? Remember the when the Flee from AoE AI added to the game? Remember the endless threads flaming Anet because they "ruined" they're style of play? I remember I also think I know what ended the threads.

Warrior: ARRRGG I HATE YOU ANET
Crowd: ARRG UNDO THE CHANGE
Warrior 2: No wait guys we can use Glads Defense and it still works
Warrior: huh? COOL!
Monk: Well what about us?
Warrior 2: I hear you can you can use Shield of Judgement
Monk: O LETS FARM THE GRIFFONS!!
Crowd: KILL THE GRIFFONS!!
Ele: No Wait guys what about the echo nukers
Monk: Why don't you use the one hit AoE skills
Ele: O..
Monk: and I hear Meteor shower doesn't trigger the AI
Ele: OK sweet man for a minuite there I thought I would be rejected by all PuGs and forced to go with henchman, I wonder what that would feel like.
Mesmer: I can tell you......


So he's a few questions for you guys:

Do you think Anet should have put more effort into making PvE more like PvP before the game was released?

Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvE in GW:EN?

Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvEin GW2?

I think anet will procede on their course right now:: Dumb down pvp till its the same level as pve ^_^

Yes, yes, and yes. They've already shown they can do it to an extent with the zaishen arena, or the luxon quest in which you fight in some arena or another.

The game is fun when it's hard and mentally engaging. I don't think there's been a single AI update that I've been displeased with.

*Prepares for everyone to scream for retard monsters that die in one click and explode in phat lewts*

as a side note

This made me laugh hard enough to spill my drink. You owe me a new carpet.

There's a pretty simple answer for this imo. AI at this moment in time is simply not advanced enough, and especially mob/game AI. They can do some neat tricks with it for sure, but it will always remain AI. Thus, it can be made difficult, but it will always (as far as I know) have some kind of pattern, some kind of skillset that you can arm yourself against etc.

Playing versus another human is different, since you can try to predict him/her, or trying to force counteractions (tactics), but it wont have a set pattern carved into programmer lines.

Another counter question I believe Izzy said once: Do you really want to make PvE like PvP, do you want every mob encounter to last for 15-25 minutes?
And.. if you make them 'too perfect', you'll be screaming of imbalanced game structure etc. ;p (its not fun if you cant win)

the problem is if pve were like pvp the content would be pretty dull. you'd just have groups of 8 monsters and thats it. thats your mission, kill these 8 people. oh look another mission... kill these other 8 people. damn. it works for turn-based RPGs like final fantasy, but in a game like guild wars, that would make PvE dull I think.

1. No

In fact, PvE and PvP should be either very different creatures entirely, or molded together into one game. Right now, it's neither. PvP is in an entirely separate area than PvE, has it's own rules (RA is random, HA has specific rules per map, GvG is ranked battles with very chess-like kill the king style play, etc.), and even has it's own way of starting and equipping characters.

Because GW is non-instanced, you can't just "go fight" anywhere in Tyria, anytime you want. You can't fight others to gain land, fight for a quest, go head to head in a dungeon over who gets to move on, whatever. You have to actually exit the PvE area, and get transported to a PvP arena, where all these rules come into play. It's a sport, not a life-and-death struggle or epic battle built into the RPG element.

So because of how GW was made, with this separation hard coded, then the separation should have been more defined - clearly it's two separate games. Though things like skill balances and the WaW system, meaninglessly affect both sides at the same time, and create friction.

Besides all that, PvE is defined by the storyline, exploration of a vast world, mass amounts of increasingly more powerful mobs (that make us feel good when we wipe from the face of Tyria), and of course, loot. When you suggest to make the mobs more like PvP groups, like the Zaishen, you also suggest either less groups overall (no more "yay I killed 200 monsters!" feelings), or simply a lot more time to do plain adventuring, questing, beating the game, etc.

A challenge in PvE is fine, but so is enjoying the game casually. GW was designed initially with the casual player in mind, and fighting 50 8-monster groups with rezzes just to make it to the next town is not my idea of casual fun in the least.

2. Better AI, fine. A decent, full 8 skillbar, fine. But keep the rezzes for high-end mobs (and only certain ones, like how Desolation+ already is), and keep the difficulty relatively the same as it is now (there are easy areas, and there are hard areas, and there is areas in-between)

3. I have no problems with this, as long as, like I said above, there are easy/medium/hard areas balanced with the AI and good skillbars.

Exactly, that too. People hate the "fedex" quests because they are dull like that. I don't want everything in the PvE/RPG side to be solely kill kill kill. Nothing but 8-on-8 5-10 minute battles all the way to Abaddon is not my idea of fun in the least.

No, if I wanted things more like PvP then I would play more PvP instead of PvE.

Yes! I think they should focus more on making better builds for the AI and increasing the AI intelligence. Setting up different builds per profession that gets loaded into creatures of that profession when you enter that map so they have more varity.

See above.


How about the first implementation of the AOE scatter where the AI was running away if you cast "Conjure Phantasm" on them. Though I kinda liked that for a very short while with my monk and calling "I'm casing Banish on X" and see them running away.

Because that's not what their customer base demands. If you've been paying attention to these boards in recent months, the PvE community does not want a compelling, challenging PvE game, but "WoW without a monthly fee". Hence the repeated calls to separate PvE and PvP entirely (so that PvE could degenerate into another dumb grind game), the predictable responses to the balance changes and new PvE win buttons, etc.

Basically, someone realized that they'd make a lot more money as "WoW without a monthly fee" than as a complicated game, so they're separating the gametypes and giving the masses what they want.

I'll commend A.Net for making a good business decision for once.

I hate being in the minority that likes PvP and PvE intertwining.

I would love it if PvE mobs had more of the same skills players had (8 skills, including an elite + res) and less imbalanced skills (call of torment) as well as properly mixed mob types with offense, defense, buff, debuff and not overpowered with 10 levels above the player.

I would love it if PvP was more intergrated into the PvE of the game. More involved in the storyline, quests, missions.

I love the concept of "Skill is more important than Time spent".

I wish more people considered GW as "One game" where you can jump from farming, missions, quests, or PvP without missing a beat.

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I think it really falls down to what Anet originally wanted to make versus what the audience that they attracted want.

Theres 2 ways to go about it.

1) Stay true to your vision, and attempt to attract the audience you originally wanted.
or
2) Change the game to suit your audience.


The smart business choice is #2.

Sorta, but no, the game(s) came out wonderfully IMO (Factions was a bit odd, but it was still a great game)

They already did sorta, it's called Hard Mode. Though Yes, I think they should deck out the mobs with some better equipment and skillz.

Yep. I think GW2 is their chance to blend PvE and PvP more.

That's a really good idea, make monster groups like human groups in PvP, and be closer to the same level, but be smarter and more skilled, so it's like PvP pretty much, but instead you're fighting monsters who are like real players. Though, with this I think you would have to have less groups on monsters, other wise it'd be like doing 10+ TA matches just to get to another area.

^That idea sounds great, make monster groups just like player groups, with 8 skills, an elite, a rez, and stuff like that, so it's like PvP, yet you're fighting more (though it's not as hard/long as a PvP battle)

edit - ive removed my post because it was a bit off topic and not useful to the thread

If you checked any public forums in sites like gamespot.com or anything similar, ppl who ask for advice for best MMO without WoW grinding philosophy the best answer you always get is GW. This is the gold element that attract many to have GW (also no monthly fee ofc), because GW doesn't have chance if it came to WoW grinding and tried to emulate it.

GW till now offers nice moderate grinding lvl without spending months to achieve what you are looking for, on the other hand you aren't missing any fun of this game if you tried to stay away from this grinding.

I have always wanted a harder AI. I really liked the "run from AoE" update. Actually I used AoE on my mesmer, that lava font skill, when I was surrounded by a group of enemies. They ran away and I could continue with what I was doing. It put elementalist on a more even playing field with the other characters and the running gave a lot of advatages, such as the enemies weren't doing anything while running.

I wish PvE was more like PvP, would be a lot more fun and more replayable. The hardest part of PvE is when a mob of 20 or so enemies lvl 28 come and beat down your party for a minute or two. Less huge mobs and more skillful mobs.

Some skills are great for sweep a zone with loads of mobs, but become a bit strong to kill lesser but smarter sprites (other players), so, defeated players complain about a abusive build/skill and force a balance update.

OK, people aint complaining anymore at the arenas while the PvE part of the game suffers the consequences of it. And most of the skill buffs (PvP oriented) are futile in PvE.

Instead of successive skill nerfs on the very mechanics of the game, at least ANet is finally realizing that these two portions of the game cannot be 100% equal and are implementing PvE-only skills, a good choice imho.

But theres still some work to do. As previously stated, PvE is basically a more fun, moderate challenged. While PvP focus ultimately on challenge and adrenalin.

Theres two different types of customers...some, like me, are just compelled to wack a few mobs, exploring a map, following a story, get some loot, etc..just for kicks

In other hand, other customers are extremely competitive, and fell themselves rewarded only by the defeat of other fellow human players. They thrive on the increasing and constant challenge and pressure that PvP throws in. Or maybe they want to satisfy their Ego proving that are more skilled than others. One can only guess.

Two different customers+Two different foes+ Two different rewards= Two different worlds.

ANet has acomplished a great feat so far trying to satisfy both worlds, but lately, the balance is tending too much for the PvP portion and leaving the PvE customer very unpleased. The Equilibrium needs to be restored.

"Do you think Anet should have put more effort into making PvE more like PvP before the game was released?"

No, imo PvP sucks. I dislike competition and I just wanna kill some monsters and get rich and stuff.

"Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvE in GW:EN?"

No, Monsters are there to be killed. Monsters aren't smart. If they were, they would've had cities and cars.

"Do you think Anet should try to make mobs smart and equiped with better build in PvEin GW2?"

No, Monsters are there to be killed. In PvP, fighting and killing 8 people is good, I think. But in PvP, wasting 10 minutes to just kill 8 monsters is worthless. Monsters come in way bigger groups, have more armor, health, firepower, reflexes and they even look cool. Don't overpower them even more, or give us our old-school builds back, instead of balancing them to be good in PvP, and worthless in PvE.


PvE = Killing loads of monsters who have almost no individual strenght or weakness. A mesmer and necromancer will die just as fast in a double meteor shower. And that's how it's supposed to be. Spending 10 minutes for each group of monsters is just stupid. Especially since the game whines about playing too much. Skills that target 1 target and do no damage are most of the time useless (hence the mesmer hate).

PvP = Killing individual targets. You don't attack 20 creatures at the same time, but only 1. Skills that do AoE damage are about useless here.

Ohh, and updates for PvE makes the PvP crowd mad ("They got a whole world and even more, and we don't get anything! PvP is dead!")

And PvP updates make PvE crowd mad ("Ffs another one of my builds destroyed. Stop nerfing my professions A-Net! PvE is dead!")

See? It's contradicting. PvE and PvP are 2 different things. You can't balance them, even though A-Net tries.

To answer the thread title, because both require very different amounts of skill and dedication, and one of them is pretty hard to get into.
PvE only skills. First step to balancing PvP while keeping PvEers happy.

personally ide like to see better skill sets on pve mobs and ditch some of the more overpowered skills (like call of torment as it was stated) of course improved AI one bit at a time which a-net does anyways, and a re-balancing of mobs so instead of having 4 or 5 of the same thing you have maybe 1 or 2 of each class in a mob. As it is right now even in hard mode i can take 3-4 ele's (depending if i am on my Ele or not) 1 MM and 2 monks with the last slot being whatever and completely steam roll an entire area. The increased attack speed and movement speed makes for pretty good churning earth and unsteady ground bait for anything i cast it on. So now i would call that rather imbalanced and its boring as hell. For the past maybe...month or two i haven't had too much incetive to play PvE and lately and since PvP had turned into a gimmick fest not too much of a reason to play that either (especially since i got a bambi =D). But as for PvP and PvE being different which is the entire point of the thread....i'de like to see maybe some similar scenery between the two such as additional RA and TA maps, areas in PvE that more represent the Hall of Heroes (other than going to Tombs) and maybe even having the RA and TA arenas open up for PvE players to go into a gauntlet style match with a few mobs and a uber uber high lvl baddie that is randomized upon entrance. just my $.02

In PvE, you know exactly what to expect, even if it means dying after every group just to memorize exactly what it is you're facing. You bring the right build, memorize enemy patterns, and before long you've 'mastered' that area. Ultimately it ends up teaching little about actual game mechanics, as pressure situations requiring quick adaptation are few and far between.

The best analogy I can think of would be that of an RTS like Command and Conquer, or any other RTS for that matter. You can play against AI all you want, finish the game on whatever difficulty, but go online versus another player and that experience means little. In fact you'll find out that your experience vs AI was basically just to teach you what the units are and how to build them. When it comes to apdating to a pressure situation, or truly understanding the game mechanics, it usually requires a live opponent. Only when you've been beaten by an equal, will you begin to examine the intricacies of the game to gain any advantage, however small, against the competition.

The same could be said of Guild Wars. I think there's definitely a tendency to become complacent towards PvE once you've 'mastered' an area. After all, once you've reached that stage, improvement is not considered essential. In PvP however, against an equal opponent, it forces players who strive to improve to examine the game on another level. Sure players can just wiki an efficient build, the same as you can a good build order in C&C, but those same players are usually beaten by those who inherently understand why that build is superior.

In PvE, you only need to reach a level that is good enough, in order to have success. It's just the limitation of AI. For this reason, growth of (most) PvE only players is handicapped at a certain level. In PvP, there is no such thing as good enough. You're good enough just after you've won first place in GWC or GWFC. That's about it

It's this kind of opinion that really ruins most RPGs for me. There really are a lot of us out there who don't like repeatedly clicking until everything explodes in shiny loot. For me, and a lot of other players, this is about as fun as, well, sitting still and repeatedly clicking a mouse. There's no skill, challenge, or any mental activity that your brain stem isn't fully capable of performing. Heck, I don't even need to buy a game to click over and over. I don't even need a computer for that matter, all I need is a mouse and someone to tell me I'll get something really valuable if I keep clicking.

As you put it, you're right. There is no way to balance PvE so that's it's retarded without screwing PvP. Hence, the addition of stupidly overpowered PvE-only skills to get around this.

Why they are so separate is because one is something that a normal average player can play and enjoy - PVE. And one is something that for the most part only a hardcore e-sport (a word the Guild Wars makers often use to describe GW PVP) type of player using hardcore third-party voice chat programs just to play the game would enjoy - PVP. Although I'm sure the GW makers would (and have said) that isn't so --- because it's bad PR to say "The PVP side of our game is only for hardcore e-sport players to enjoy", but that is the case even despite them saying it is not so. Probably a main reason they they pointed out that in GW2 you won't feel like a newbie for playing in the World vs. World PVP. Because in GW1 you definitely will if you are not hardcore.

Of course there are a few non-serious PVE areas that do not require hardcore e-sport type of players (RA, FA, AB), but those are considered "scrub PVP". For the most part, GW PVP caters only to the hardcore, and the hardcore is not something that most people bought the game for.

'Repeatedly clicking' (which is about everything in the game, except for reading the quest text and watching movies) IS fun. We're not all skilled and up for a challenge, you know. And why would that be needed? This game is for everyone, if someone isn't as elite as another, does that mean he can't play the game?

Some of you say you like 'challenge' but that's actually kinda selfish imo. I admit, I can't do lots of quests in easy mode, and I really suck in hard mode. The endless updates and not being able to buy skills doesn't make this easier. The last thing I need is the game to become even harder.

The overpowered skills can't be obtained at full power without grinding either.


Let's think about what happens if the AI becomes smart and even more overpowered. I have a life, so I can only game about an hour a day. If every single group takes about 10 minutes, I can barely do a mission or quest per day. Buying skills is completely out of the question because of no cash, and because of this, I can't get further in the game after a while (Ever tried high end missions with the skills you began with?)

Sure, some people might've beaten the game 16 times (I did, as well, in the time where I could just buy the skills and armor I wanted), don't want to farm and are just bored, but some people enjoy just playing the game, without going till the limit all the time.

The original design of the 1st guild wars to start in Pve, then migrate in to Pvp.

There was no Bath-Faction points or priests when GW originally came out and unlocks could only be done in pve. You had to do unlocks in pve or rely on the pre-made templates if you didn't have the skills.

That being said, the bulk of the players seem to be attracted to one or the other. Anet has tried to peek pve -> pvp interest with faction with alliance battles and the Fort Jade / Aspen.

Since it seems that players mostly do one or the other, the changed in latter chapters and enhancements to the way the game works, and plans for GW2 shows a much more separation (most recently the pve only skills for example) but not a complete isolation of the two.

QFT, Anet wanted players to go from PvE to PvP mostly, not go straight to PvP, and not always stay in PvE. Lately (as in the last year or so) people have been going straight to PvP, or staying in PvE the whole time they play (on occasion doing AB or something like that)

I agree 100%. Personaly I'm more into the pve portion of the game. However that doesn't mean I don't like to hop into pvp off and on for some competitive fun. I'm looking foward to more pve only skills. You never know what skills may be changed next due to the pvp portion of the game. It doesn't always go over so well in pve. Which is why i'm glad they are adding these pve only skills.

As for the AI I don't have any problems with it. Sometimes I have a tough time, other times I just run the mobs over like I was in a Mack Truck. If they were to change the AI I would hope they would do it to encourage more builds. It would be nice to see more creativity in the pve side of the game. I'm so tired of the 2 monks, 1 mm, 1+ nukers, 1+ tanks mentality in PUGs. Not only that but most of the groups i've been in want you to take x skills or you are gone.

I don't know how many times i've been asked to go restore on my Rt/N. So I hope some of these new pve skills will open up more options.

I admit, I'm really puzzled by this opinion. I'm not saying that you're wrong or stupid, but it's so far from my reasoning for playing games that I can't for the life of me, make any sense of it.

The games I find most fun are those in which I'm challenged greatly, often to the point of losing very often when I frist start. As I get better, either through reflexes or strategy, I start winning. It gives me a great feeling of accomplishment and it's mentally engaging. I have to think and figure out new strategies if I hope to win.

Take out the challenge, and there's not a lot left there. You either win instantly, or the only obstacle is the time you have to sit and stare at the screen in order to win. Either way, winning is an inevitability.

For example, outside of video games, I play a lot of soccer. I play my best and enjoy the game the most when I'm playing a team slightly better than mine. The challenge makes me push myself and I become a better player. On the offchance that I win, it feels really, really good, since I know I did something right and I' getting better. However, it's boring as heck to play bad teams. You score 10 goals in the first ten minutes, then you stop caring. It's no longer fun, because winning is an inevitability, you just have to stand around for an hour and it'll happen. Without a challenge, you're likely to develop bad habits and become an even worse player.

So to sum up, it really has nothing to do with excluding people or any of that, it's that there's no point in playing a game that isn't going to beat you senseless every now and then. I believe that anyone can kick their brain into gear and learn how to play well.

So: Why on earth you would want to play a game with zero challenge?

If I'm right that you want an unchallenging game, why would you ever buy new games, or not just watch television?

Because I don't want to play PvP, I want PvE, for endless killings of mobs for useless items.

Luckily for you, there are areas like that in GW. Luckily for everyone, the entire game isn't like that, there are options. If even the challenging areas are no longer challenging for you, guess what, move on. Either find new areas, create new challenges for yourself, play PvP, or simply try a different game. Once one plays a game long enough, anyone, no matter how good they are, will perfect every little pixel. Any game, no matter how good it is, can become boring. Again, move on.

If you have perfected everything and you are bored, please stop trying to make the game harder for everyone by pleading the devs. I love a challenge just as much as the next guy, and every once in a while I do play in these elite areas to have fun - not to farm. If I want more challenge, I PvP. However, if I want to relax from a long day at work (and school), I want to friggin relax, not be tested further.

It's a game, enjoy it as a game. Again, you want a challenge, create your own. If you don't know how to do that, learn imagination. When you play a game that has a cheat code, do you automatically activate the cheat code and complain after a while that it's too easy? If so, well, you made it so, not the devs, despite them putting that cheat code in.

Well why don't we get back on topic.

I'd say its so seperate mainly because of your opponents. Actual players are usually more intelligent and don't run off some ai a-net makes. When you PvE its like hmm yea lets run this build gg I win. When you pvp its like you have a group on vent coordinating and changing tactics based off of what the other team is doing and their build.

I like pve for the story not for the challenge. I play pvp for the challenge.

The only way to make pve challenging is either to put in random puzzles to solve or to give them super skills/damage/defense/something thats beyond what we can do to make up for their AI. Anet went with the second way.

I've noticed that pve and pvp are completely different, wich I never imagined when I first bought GW, but I have no idea how this could be fixed without making all the community start crying.

Luckily your ideas are not needed since the fix seems to be Guild Wars 2.

PvPvEr... never heard that term before.. hope you don't mind me stealing it to refer to myself :-D

Damnit...I had a really good long post typed out and Guru decided to be crap as usual. Post gone.

Basically the 2 can't coexist. Its a fact of life on so many levels that I explained but lost. Anet tried to force it in Guild Wars and it led to the game not becoming what it could have been.

Is basically because there is a huge difference between the PvP and PvE mentality. The two types of players just cant get along, due to varied opinions and views on the game.

They like to fight differently and look down upon one another. The two aspects just couldnt function if they were combined.

No, no, and... no (not unless they change the current build/concept of mobs completely).

Something people seem to forget... PvP is all about balance, Right? Youve all got the same number of people on your team. Youve all got the same number of skills in your bar. They are continuously attempting to balance the skills (not always successfully, but they try).

Now just imagine PvE mobs that had lighting fast reflexes, can monitor all opponents simultaniously, and are 2-4-6-8 levels higher than your party. Shouldn't have to imagine that much, they already exist. And in the case of hard mode you can add 1/2 cast, permanently increased movement and attack rate.
Now add to that, complete skill synergy with a full skill bar + rezes. And make sure that a mob never has less than 8 members. AND a smart enough AI to know when not to cast (backfire/soul leech) and other such suicidal actions.

The mobs in PvE are fine as is. Someone else started a thread where the OP is some kournan priest (a bit heavy on the RP). He's pretty much asking for the same thing as you've put up for discussion here. He complains that his fellows don't have enough skills, and the skills they have don't make sense. He doesn't go quite so far as to note that many of the kournan soldiers are lvl 16-18 (so lower HP/armor/attributes), but had he done so, it might have better highlighted that the Kourna portion of the game is not top end yet. You don't really see the big stuff until Vabbi, and then you don't see the really big BIG stuff until Realm of Torment. Here you face mobs of 6-8 margonites or shadow guys (or titans... i hate titans, but they are in smaller groups). They are typically Level 24, and you have to deal with enviromental conditions on top of that. Jacking up there intelligence to match even a moderately skilled PvP team would likely shut out any chance of success for all but 10% of the GW player base (and that's being generous).

Mobs already have higher armor, higher HP, suspiciously higher energy (no one has really confirmed this, but it is highly suspected), omniscient awareness of the battle field, much faster reflexes, and higher attributes = bigger punch to spells and skills.
Players occassionally have more in a party (but not always), and are smarter (again, not always).

This is what is refered to (but often dismissed or ignored) as PvE balance. To better illustrate just one of these qualities, allow me to throw out another "suppose". Imagine you're in a standard HoH match. There are three teams competing. The red team and the blue team have the same GUI that we are all used to. BUT the yellow team has one little additional feature... they have two extra party windows. These party windows represent the roster for the red and blue teams. Additionally, these windows also have mini skill progress bars, so you can monitor exactly what each member of each team is doing at all times. Which player is being hit with conditions or hexes? Who has an enchantment I can strip/desecrate/drain? Who is low on health? Who is casting a long spell? All this without having to use venta or teamspeak or text chat. All at a glance. Just imagine what a ranger or mesmer could do with that kind of info. This is just one advantage the AI has in PvE. If we wanted to continue we could say, let's give the yellow team another 60 attribute points each, increased attribute caps without need for runes, and an extra 80 HP (again without runes). Oh, and and additional 10 to 20 armor.

This would obviously be unacceptable in PvP. But these are the qualities faced by the adventuring parties in PvE. So how is balanced achieved in PvE? The skills the mobs bring don't always work in complete synergy with each other. The mobs will always attack, ignoring hexes/conditions that will make attacking dangerous/suicidal. They behave in a highly predictable fashion. They often (though not always) come in party numbers smaller than the standard group. This is how balance is achieved in PvE (no matter what someone may have said about there being no such thing).

Increasing the intelligence of the AI would make some of the portions of the game that are already challanging down right impossible.

In a well synergized, co-operative, practiced, informed group, every situation in PvE should be handled with little difficulty if any at all. Thing is, most groups in PvE aren't well organized/practiced/communicative. The PvE game is well designed for the PvE community. Trying to change one community into another will simply alienate a vast portion of that community. So, no. I don't think they should redesign the AI or mobs to be more like PvP teams, even if they were able to do so.

Here's the problem. You are assuming that the game isn't already challanging for some players, because you find it to be unchallanging. Some people already find the PvE aspect of the game to be quite challanging. A handful of people in my previous guild leap to mind. I know that if I want to make any mission or quest MORE challanging, I just have to invite a few of these players along (experience has shown me that hench do a better job than these guys). There are players who are not likely to complete all the missions in Hard Mode until some time in 2009 - if the servers are still running then. They just don't have the smarts/skills. They might be awesome lawyers or carpenters, but remembering not to cast backfire on the warrior doesn't always happen for them. They will make mistakes - sometimes many of them.

Here's the great thing about guild wars though... low end players can't make mobs weaker to decrease the challange to there level, BUT high end players can impose restrictions on themselves to make the game more challanging. You can reduce the number of people in your party (soloing wasn't only about the loot). You can make builds with no elite, or only 6 skills. Or no elite and four skills. What about completing the campaign with only the skills you learned in pre-searing (or either of the newbie isles)? Lesser armor, only weapons you find, and no runes are just a handful of ideas. There are infinite ways to make the game more challanging for yourself. But once the dev team increases AI intelligence, skills, level, etc, there is absolutely nothing the non-leet player can do to make the game playable for themself. Nothing they can do to reduce the challange to their level. The end result of which would be to exclude those players.


Hope that helps address the question of challange.

**The game is already HIGHLY challanging for my mom. Perhaps too challanging (she thinks it looks great, but there is just too much for her to keep track of).

Exactly. Pretty much what I said. Luckily GW is made by devs who understand all this and tries to cater to everyone, not just the power player, and not just the casual-type. Keeping the game separate allows everyone to get what they want, effectively. Honestly, as others have said, if you want "PvP-like", why aren't you playing PvP? It's like playing Poker, but wanting to change the rules to make it more like Texas Hold-'em - just play Texas Hold-'em!

In PVE I want a simple way of spending my time. I got nothing better to do, an hour free. I log in and I vanquish a zone, get master on a mission, work towards my guardian title, capture an elite, farm some money.

Light entertainment is what i want from PVE in simple terms. And in my eyes HM can be concidered light entertainment aswell. Just to add that in.

What annoys me about PVE though, is the lack of variety. I run two basic builds (playing mostly monk myself).
Either number 1: me - R\P barrager - P\W - RC Prot monk.

Or number 2: me - Minionmaster (using a number of diffrent elites) - 2 Ele's with slightly diffrent builds and savannah heat.

And it's pretty simple to see what these builds does, number 1 is a holdway build. Pretty much unbeatable, tearing down any group at a decent rate. The secound on the other hand, is a cookie cutter AoE build. Push the button, wait for ownage, let minions take the rest.

I agree with this to a limited extent. Often times I have had a long hard day at work and just want to get on the game for a while and kill stuff. I don't want to think terrible hard and get stressed about a game because it's the game that is supposed to be relieving the stress! However, there are times when I Pve (and I virtually only PvE) that I do want to think and use good team tactics and strategies to beat monsters.

So I would like something in between which is what I thought (or hoped) hard mode would take care of. Unfortunately, I don't think HM is quite what people where hoping for. Not trying to knock it, but I'm hoping in GWEN or perhaps GW2 that a HM would be written better to appease those who really enjoy a tough challenge with those who do like mindless monster genocide.

- Why a PvP player goes and plays PvE?

- Why a PvE player goes and plays PvP?

- If the PvE and PvP aspects of the game where very similar, would be any reason to a PvE/PvP player to go and play PvP/PvE? Or, would be any reason to have two different aspects of the game altogether?


Have fun,
impression