+ Armor mod vs +HP mod
Chaoticwars
Looking to upgrade a sword with either a +5 armor mod or a +29-30 hp mod. Would like to hear your thoughts to advantages/disadvantages of either mod. 
Thanks in advance!
Ensign
+armor is better in PvE until you start to pile up DP. Then health becomes better.
The main advantage of +health is that it makes the number bigger when you flex your PvEpeen by clicking your health bar in team chat.
The main advantage of +health is that it makes the number bigger when you flex your PvEpeen by clicking your health bar in team chat.
MrFuzzles
Armor advantages: Better unless you're stacking 3 sup runes. A guy with low hp and high armor is easier to heal.
Armor disadvantages: DoT's ignore armor.
HP advantages: Gives you a better relative return if your maximum hp is lowered by deep wound, sup runes, death penalty, etc.
It's marginal either way. I've always gone with armor just because it's cheaper. If I get a HP upgrade I sell it and buy an armor one.
Armor disadvantages: DoT's ignore armor.
HP advantages: Gives you a better relative return if your maximum hp is lowered by deep wound, sup runes, death penalty, etc.
It's marginal either way. I've always gone with armor just because it's cheaper. If I get a HP upgrade I sell it and buy an armor one.
Tiny Killer
I suggest that you stick with the armor upgrade as well. The health upgrade does not do you any good until you reach 0 health, whereas the armor upgrade helps you from the momment combat starts until it is over.
Yichi
If youre in the frontlines say as a warrior or even some midline cases like a ranger or paragon, the +hp is always more beneficial due to you having a higher base armor and being in a more vulnarible position. On a caster as a monk or mes or ele, i usually always run + armor and have a +hp on switch for dp if needed.
MMSDome
I prefer armor because I think of it this way, armor can protect that health from being lost. +health may be better for degen but when your getting hit by attacks id take more armor any day.
Bryant Again
Some people like cake. I prefer pie.
Lexar
There's loads of armor ignoring dmg out there (holy dmg), or even partially ignoring (like lightning dmg). Also many hexes do dmg regardless of armor, life steals from vampiric skills ignore armor completely, then there's degen, where armor doesn't matter at all.
If you're going to be tanking by using your armor you're going to be taking a skill for it anyway.
+5 armor works in some situations but not in all, and +30 hp well, it's basically always a welcome extra, isn't it? Even if on the long run from getting direct damage you would have been better off with the extra armor, it's not like the extra hp isn't handy either and it's better in any other situation as well.
Almost everyone I know has several weapon sets anyway, to switch given the situation. As an all-round option if you absolutely had to take only 1 type of sword with you on a deserted island you would probably be better off with the fortitude mod, but why limit yourself to 1 weapon?
If you're going to be tanking by using your armor you're going to be taking a skill for it anyway.
+5 armor works in some situations but not in all, and +30 hp well, it's basically always a welcome extra, isn't it? Even if on the long run from getting direct damage you would have been better off with the extra armor, it's not like the extra hp isn't handy either and it's better in any other situation as well.
Almost everyone I know has several weapon sets anyway, to switch given the situation. As an all-round option if you absolutely had to take only 1 type of sword with you on a deserted island you would probably be better off with the fortitude mod, but why limit yourself to 1 weapon?
Kool Pajamas
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Originally Posted by Lexar
There's loads of armor ignoring dmg out there (holy dmg), or even partially ignoring (like lightning dmg). Also many hexes do dmg regardless of armor, life steals from vampiric skills ignore armor completely, then there's degen, where armor doesn't matter at all.
If you're going to be tanking by using your armor you're going to be taking a skill for it anyway. +5 armor works in some situations but not in all, and +30 hp well, it's basically always a welcome extra, isn't it? Even if on the long run from getting direct damage you would have been better off with the extra armor, it's not like the extra hp isn't handy either and it's better in any other situation as well. Almost everyone I know has several weapon sets anyway, to switch given the situation. As an all-round option if you absolutely had to take only 1 type of sword with you on a deserted island you would probably be better off with the fortitude mod, but why limit yourself to 1 weapon? |
In pve most the damage you take is not going to be armor ignoring, so I'd go with +armor.
Malice Black
Never seen the big deal with +30hp, beyond making an item look 'prettier' and being easy cash.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas
Holy damage does not ignore armor. Lightning damage doesnt either. Most air ele skills have armor penetration but the damage doesnt ignore armor. There is a difference between armor ignoring and armor penetration.
In pve most the damage you take is not going to be armor ignoring, so I'd go with +armor. |
In PvE, it's all about aggro control, and the mobs will attack someone who is low armored and/or low health. To the average AI, I'm sure +5 armor is probably just as much of a deterrent as +30 health, so it really doesn't make that much difference. The +30 can help if you have more than a single superior attribute rune, but otherwise there won't be enough of a loss of health for it to really matter. That +5 armor will help with most of the damage you will encounter; physical, elemental, and the three other types I mentioned will all be lessened with the basic armor upgrade. If you're facing a lot of degen and armor-ignoring damage, or simply DPing like mad, the health mod might help more. Just depends on the situation.
Though, the armor is a lot cheaper for having such a similar effect overall. It's definitely a better deal, hands down.
HawkofStorms
I <3 Blessed Insignas.
Armor all the way in PvE.
PvP has too much armor ignoring damage and is often about spiking so +health there.
Armor all the way in PvE.
PvP has too much armor ignoring damage and is often about spiking so +health there.
Series
Both serve different purposes. +Armor is better against attacks while +Health is better against degen and armor ignoring damage. Personally, I like both
glountz
In PVE i prefer armor.
But it depends on your teamate monk skill really.
+ armor - health : your monk will expense less energy, but will have to have more reflexes.
- armor + health: your monk will have the time to react as you take damage, but will have toi heal more as you loose more.
But it depends on your teamate monk skill really.
+ armor - health : your monk will expense less energy, but will have to have more reflexes.
- armor + health: your monk will have the time to react as you take damage, but will have toi heal more as you loose more.
bilateralrope
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Originally Posted by Lexar
r works in some situations but not in all, and +30 hp well, it's basically always a welcome extra, isn't it? Even if on the long run from getting direct damage you would have been better off with the extra armor, it's not like the extra hp isn't handy either and it's better in any other situation as well.
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However the +armor helps every single time you take armor affected damage and since you took less damage, the monks spend less energy healing you. And I can't think of a mob in PvE that does purely armor ignoring damage, even if I ignore their wanding at you.
So even if they have armor ignoring damage, the +armor mod will probably help more because of it protecting against the other things they chuck at you.
Quote:
| Almost everyone I know has several weapon sets anyway, to switch given the situation. As an all-round option if you absolutely had to take only 1 type of sword with you on a deserted island you would probably be better off with the fortitude mod, but why limit yourself to 1 weapon? |
In PvP, I take what the group leader tells me to take.
Spazzer
Enemy AI seems to consider health total very relevant when selecting a target. If your monk has 600hp, it's very rare that it will be targeted at all in PvE.
Stormlord Alex
For general PvE use, there is far too little armour-ignoring damage, nor any intelligent spiking, for +hp mods to hold their ground. For the most part, +armour mods will save you a lot more health over the course of a battle. (besides... they're 50x cheaper!)
It is still nice, however, to have a higher-health option available for when DP gets a pain (armour-switching works in PvE, I take a minor-rune headgear for emergencies)
However... for PvP, I'd probably say +hp is the mod of choice.
It is still nice, however, to have a higher-health option available for when DP gets a pain (armour-switching works in PvE, I take a minor-rune headgear for emergencies)
However... for PvP, I'd probably say +hp is the mod of choice.
Orphan Anthem
Personally i consider health better because it gives monks more time to react and heal you the +5 armor only makes a difference is long draw out battles and pve has ALOT of downtime
Xenex Xclame
Best option is just to have both weapons, your considering the +29/30 HP so i assume you have the money for it, buy it get some more money and buy the +armor one, since its pretty cheap.
Patrick Smit
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Originally Posted by Spazzer
Enemy AI seems to consider health total very relevant when selecting a target. If your monk has 600hp, it's very rare that it will be targeted at all in PvE.
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Armor can be very good, but gives much less buffer, and when DPeed goes down fast, becoming even more vulnerable.
Though with very high damage in HM you could well think that a bit of armor +15-20 instead of 100 health, reduces a lot of damage as well. It is a persoanl choice, but i like health. 20 armor is like 25% reduction or so, on the 200 damage the difference will be big, but with the new skills you should just take a paragon and take health in my opinion, as the reduction in damage taken can be overwhelming in a good skilled party.
Ensign
"Which do you prefer?" is a personal choice, based on reasons that you may or may not understand, and concepts that may or may not relate to anything the other person cares about.
"Which is better?" is not a personal choice. It's a question of mathematical effectiveness with a clear answer - armor - 95% of the time. Against the damage you take in PvE, +armor gives you *more* of a buffer than +health against damage from the reduction, on top of the benefits of reducing damage. As long as your team is working, +armor is unquestionably the better mod.
*The* reason to take +health in PvE is because it becomes great once you've picked up a bunch of DP. Once your max health drops below ~400 you're going to want to think about extra health over armor, or taking off the superior depending on your situation. The DP reason is why I suggest health to new players, because I'm sure that newer and/or weaker players are very familiar with having a lot of DP.
"Which is better?" is not a personal choice. It's a question of mathematical effectiveness with a clear answer - armor - 95% of the time. Against the damage you take in PvE, +armor gives you *more* of a buffer than +health against damage from the reduction, on top of the benefits of reducing damage. As long as your team is working, +armor is unquestionably the better mod.
*The* reason to take +health in PvE is because it becomes great once you've picked up a bunch of DP. Once your max health drops below ~400 you're going to want to think about extra health over armor, or taking off the superior depending on your situation. The DP reason is why I suggest health to new players, because I'm sure that newer and/or weaker players are very familiar with having a lot of DP.
Jetdoc
As Ensign (and others) has said, generally armor is the better choice.
However, the best of all worlds is to have a defense modifier and (if you are disciplined enough) a "switch off weapon" to provide the +30 health when you need it.
Unfortunately, most of us (including myself) aren't disciplined enough to switch off in the heat of a PvE battle. That and most of my "switch off" weapons are reserved for slaying modifiers, and I don't like to carry a stable of weapons around.
So mathematically, defense is better. Factoring in the human equation, fortitude is better.
However, the best of all worlds is to have a defense modifier and (if you are disciplined enough) a "switch off weapon" to provide the +30 health when you need it.
Unfortunately, most of us (including myself) aren't disciplined enough to switch off in the heat of a PvE battle. That and most of my "switch off" weapons are reserved for slaying modifiers, and I don't like to carry a stable of weapons around.
So mathematically, defense is better. Factoring in the human equation, fortitude is better.
Ensign
When I used to carry around a full arsenal, I'd use +armor weapons for the most part and swapped into +health stuff once DP got bad. I've cut down on the amount of gear I've been carrying drastically since then. Now I'm partial to +health in the spots where it matters (staff head, sword pommel), with some appropriate +armor bonus on my armor. Then the armor swaps when DP is picked up, not the weapon. It's a bit easier to manage overall, and doesn't require me to be funny with my weapon swaps.
Dr Strangelove
It's also worth noting that +armor has significantly greater value on a squishy little caster. A 106 AL warrior feels very little difference when increasing to 111 AL, about a 4% decrease in damage. However, that 5 AL goes a lot further on a squishy caster, who gets around a 9% damage reduction from that 5 AL.
Personally, I stack up armor mods on my casters, and carry around a +60 health set for when I need it. For my forsaken warrior who sees play about once in a never, I've gpt a bunch of health mods.
I'd do the armor swap thing, but I'm partial to playing guild wars super princess dress up, so that gets very expensive very quickly. However, it's worth noting that a full set of health mods on armor gives 40 health, while a full set on weapons gives 60 health. With armor, you generally get +10 AL on both your armor and weapon mods, making it a slightly better decision to put +armor on the armor and +health on the weapon.
Personally, I stack up armor mods on my casters, and carry around a +60 health set for when I need it. For my forsaken warrior who sees play about once in a never, I've gpt a bunch of health mods.
I'd do the armor swap thing, but I'm partial to playing guild wars super princess dress up, so that gets very expensive very quickly. However, it's worth noting that a full set of health mods on armor gives 40 health, while a full set on weapons gives 60 health. With armor, you generally get +10 AL on both your armor and weapon mods, making it a slightly better decision to put +armor on the armor and +health on the weapon.
Voltar
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Some people like cake. I prefer pie.
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(my favorite cake is cheesecake which is really more like a pie than a cake i guess)i like both but only really use armor if it's part of a build with other al increase. al5 really doesn't affect damage enough to stress it (you'll pretty much get pummeled the same @ 65 al as 60) however fort is good against all damage. i especially use fort weapons when i'm using a sup and maj run in that armor set.
i also wouldn't necessarily go for fort in a build that uses any sac life skills.
i think i put an al5 on a weapon i had that was +15 / al-10 once because it made me feel like i was getting away with something.
VitisVinifera
wow, great discussion. I'm really learning here.....I just went with fortitude and didn't give it much thought, but reading all this, I'll probably start working on +5 armor mods for my golds I'm currently modding, and sell my old 'perf mod' golds
Seef II
Optimally, armor on the "tanks," who should take all the damage, and health on the squishies, who don't. That's what I run, and I used to run armor on my casters, but PvP-readying them meant going health. At ~600 you aren't targetted by the AI much at all for some reason.
The characters that I don't pull into PvP a whole lot - armor all the way (W and D).
The characters that I don't pull into PvP a whole lot - armor all the way (W and D).
Longasc
Maybe GWEN has some green 15^50 +5 AL Warrior weapons.
The good about the +HP craze is that it costs almost nothing to get a +5 of Defense Upgrade.
The bad is that nobody bothers to sell one at all, usually...^^
The good about the +HP craze is that it costs almost nothing to get a +5 of Defense Upgrade.
The bad is that nobody bothers to sell one at all, usually...^^
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
A 106 AL warrior feels very little difference when increasing to 111 AL, about a 4% decrease in damage. However, that 5 AL goes a lot further on a squishy caster, who gets around a 9% damage reduction from that 5 AL.
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arcanemacabre
I still wonder why there isn't +5 armor for shields/off-hands to replace +30hp. I would think it's balanced and would make a good alternative. *shrug*
Quaker
I prefer +HP myself (for PvE). I mainly want to survive long enough to kill a mob, save the 'squishies', and then get healed. Conditions (bleeding, poison, degen hexes, disease, etc.) reduce your health at a rate that doesn't depend upon your armor level (as far as I know). The more HP you have the longer you are able to survive conditions, which often times are the major source of 'damage'. I generally have enough armor to survive physical and elemental damage. When playing in Hard Mode, I use only minor Runes to get maximum HP (works so far, I'm an Elonian Vanquisher, using only Heroes and Henchies; except in 2 areas.)
Patrick Smit
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Originally Posted by Ensign
"Which do you prefer?" is a personal choice, based on reasons that you may or may not understand, and concepts that may or may not relate to anything the other person cares about.
"Which is better?" is not a personal choice. It's a question of mathematical effectiveness with a clear answer - armor - 95% of the time. Against the damage you take in PvE, +armor gives you *more* of a buffer than +health against damage from the reduction, on top of the benefits of reducing damage. As long as your team is working, +armor is unquestionably the better mod. *The* reason to take +health in PvE is because it becomes great once you've picked up a bunch of DP. Once your max health drops below ~400 you're going to want to think about extra health over armor, or taking off the superior depending on your situation. The DP reason is why I suggest health to new players, because I'm sure that newer and/or weaker players are very familiar with having a lot of DP. |
You could test this by running in with two similar characters and see who gets targetted first. Not an easy to control experiment, but the only way to find out what is the best choice. Once u know the "rules" u could opt to let the ones with high armore have little health, while the squishies get high health.