The changes made today made the Paragon worth keeping IMO. ANET has solved many problems with this skill while still allowing people to use secondaries for Sunspear Skills.
The new skill reads
There's Nothing to Fear
15 cost 10recycle
Shout
For 4 seconds and 1 second for every 2 ranks in Leadership. All allies have 35% damage reduction, Affected allies are healed for 60 when this shout ends.
Connecting the Sunspear skills to the primary attributes for this skill and the assassin skill was the is correct thing to do IMO to preserve class uniqueness.
Whats your opinion?
Could there have been a better way to implement this?
Personally I don't think so as it was I could run a Restoration Rit with VoS and keep Nothing to Fear up constant 100% of the time with no drawbacks. This change was the correct way of addressing many paragon player concerns.
Thanks ANET.
There's Nothing to Fear for Paragons
GloryFox
Diablo???
Its a great skill and I use it constantly on my minion master.
Nuclfus
I don't follow. This doesn't make Paragons or Assassins more useful, just makes their skills less friendly to the many secondaries out there. And no, I don't feel more inclined to accept Paragons in my party. If anything, I'd rather take a profession who doesn't need to have its secondary competitors nerfed in order to seem valuable.
roysland
This just proves that they DO listen to the community. From the day the sunspear skills were introduced, most people suggested that it should be tied to the professions primary attribute.
The only difference in the skill for a paragon now is that you need 12 Leadership to keep it up indefinately. At first I feared that these new sunspear skills would be WAY to good, ending up with players filling up their skillbar with nothing but sunspear and kurzick/luxon skills. IMO, the skills shouldn't be a "must have" skill, but an addition to the skillset. All in all, this is a very attractive skill to put on my skillbar.
But, as I see it now, the sunspear rank is still kinda pointless. I'm a little ambivalent regarding whether it should be tied to the rank or just the primary attribute.
The only difference in the skill for a paragon now is that you need 12 Leadership to keep it up indefinately. At first I feared that these new sunspear skills would be WAY to good, ending up with players filling up their skillbar with nothing but sunspear and kurzick/luxon skills. IMO, the skills shouldn't be a "must have" skill, but an addition to the skillset. All in all, this is a very attractive skill to put on my skillbar.
But, as I see it now, the sunspear rank is still kinda pointless. I'm a little ambivalent regarding whether it should be tied to the rank or just the primary attribute.
Kaida the Heartless
Well, now I want to be able to use these skills on my Heroes since they are deciding to link them to primaries. It's still too hard to find a decent pug, even if it means I get all these neat little skills.
Evilsod
Well this pretty much makes the skill useless for my Ranger... And makes it slightly stronger for my Paragon... but considering playing Paragon is boring as hell. Well i guess i won't be using this skill again.
-Byron-
This skill single-handedly made a Paragon an absolutely integral part of any HM team, or any elite PVE area. I still have gripes about the abundance of crap skills in all Paragon lines...but this will work for a while. 
I can lazily spam this skill, TOF, and Watch Yourself! and watch as my party takes little damage, much of which is healed whenever it ends. Whether that is a good thing is yet to be seen.
I can lazily spam this skill, TOF, and Watch Yourself! and watch as my party takes little damage, much of which is healed whenever it ends. Whether that is a good thing is yet to be seen.
GloryFox
Quote:
This skill single-handedly made a Paragon an absolutely integral part of any HM team, or any elite PVE area. I wish I can say that was true but some prejudices die hard. It will still be sometime until people willingly begin letting Paragons into Urgoz teams.
BUT I agree with you this skill can breath new life into this class again.
Spura
If one very powerful skill suddenly makes class alive again, that tell you a lot about other skills. 50% of paragon skills suck and 50% are mediocre.
Look at updates, practically every update lately buffs more than 5 ele/necro/mesmer/rit skills. Paragon buffs that didn't get renerfed? Anthem of Fury and now Never Surrender. Never surrender is actually useful in AB cos it affects allies. Because of use of anthem of flame on spirits, now practically everything but GTFE has been nerfed to affect party members only. It is arena-net's own damn fault for giving practically no offensive support and mostly defensive support to paragon. Also I have no idea why don't they make any of the trash skills viable. For instance all it takes to make "Can't touch this" more viable is change it to target ally. But they don't actually buff less used skills.
So now paragon profession has 1 good skill in PvE on which the destiny of the whole class depends, gratz.
Look at updates, practically every update lately buffs more than 5 ele/necro/mesmer/rit skills. Paragon buffs that didn't get renerfed? Anthem of Fury and now Never Surrender. Never surrender is actually useful in AB cos it affects allies. Because of use of anthem of flame on spirits, now practically everything but GTFE has been nerfed to affect party members only. It is arena-net's own damn fault for giving practically no offensive support and mostly defensive support to paragon. Also I have no idea why don't they make any of the trash skills viable. For instance all it takes to make "Can't touch this" more viable is change it to target ally. But they don't actually buff less used skills.
So now paragon profession has 1 good skill in PvE on which the destiny of the whole class depends, gratz.
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryFox
I wish I can say that was true but some prejudices die hard. It will still be sometime until people willingly begin letting Paragons into Urgoz teams.
It will also take some time to be able to find a Paragon in Urgoz to take with the party too, lol. It will take some time for people to test new HM builds with Paragons in them to find a new build that suits them well, but I wouldn't be surprised if Paras start getting some love someday.
-Byron-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
If one very powerful skill suddenly makes class alive again, that tell you a lot about other skills. 50% of paragon skills suck and 50% are mediocre.
Look at updates, practically every update lately buffs more than 5 ele/necro/mesmer/rit skills. Paragon buffs that didn't get renerfed? Anthem of Fury and now Never Surrender. Never surrender is actually useful in AB cos it affects allies. Because of use of anthem of flame on spirits, now practically everything but GTFE has been nerfed to affect party members only. It is arena-net's own damn fault for giving practically no offensive support and mostly defensive support to paragon. Also I have no idea why don't they make any of the trash skills viable. For instance all it takes to make "Can't touch this" more viable is change it to target ally. But they don't actually buff less used skills.
So now paragon profession has 1 good skill in PvE on which the destiny of the whole class depends, gratz. Agreed for the most part. In time (probably too soon) me and many others will remember the crap skills that plague all four attribute lines of the Paragon and its lack of unique builds. But however patheticly, this has still revived a long dead class.
Look at updates, practically every update lately buffs more than 5 ele/necro/mesmer/rit skills. Paragon buffs that didn't get renerfed? Anthem of Fury and now Never Surrender. Never surrender is actually useful in AB cos it affects allies. Because of use of anthem of flame on spirits, now practically everything but GTFE has been nerfed to affect party members only. It is arena-net's own damn fault for giving practically no offensive support and mostly defensive support to paragon. Also I have no idea why don't they make any of the trash skills viable. For instance all it takes to make "Can't touch this" more viable is change it to target ally. But they don't actually buff less used skills.
So now paragon profession has 1 good skill in PvE on which the destiny of the whole class depends, gratz. Agreed for the most part. In time (probably too soon) me and many others will remember the crap skills that plague all four attribute lines of the Paragon and its lack of unique builds. But however patheticly, this has still revived a long dead class.
Div
Great step in making paragon and sin more popular in PvE. Now to fix the mesmer problem...
Mickey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclfus
I don't follow. This doesn't make Paragons or Assassins more useful, just makes their skills less friendly to the many secondaries out there. And no, I don't feel more inclined to accept Paragons in my party. If anything, I'd rather take a profession who doesn't need to have its secondary competitors nerfed in order to seem valuable.
1. You know your in the paragon forums right?
2. We never needed our secondary competitors nerfed, were valuable enough for ourselfs, I could go P/X right now and completely reduce damage to about 1/8 of what it was.
2. We never needed our secondary competitors nerfed, were valuable enough for ourselfs, I could go P/X right now and completely reduce damage to about 1/8 of what it was.
Gaia_Hunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
1. You know your in the paragon forums right?
2. We never needed our secondary competitors nerfed, were valuable enough for ourselfs, I could go P/X right now and completely reduce damage to about 1/8 of what it was. And u might still do a great deal of damage either by direct means or by buffing other combatant attacks.
2. We never needed our secondary competitors nerfed, were valuable enough for ourselfs, I could go P/X right now and completely reduce damage to about 1/8 of what it was. And u might still do a great deal of damage either by direct means or by buffing other combatant attacks.
GloryFox
Something you paragon fans should consider for HM builds using TNTF, You might also increase your Kurzick rank to at least 3.
Spear Mastery 10+1 11
Command 10+1 11
Leadership 11+1+3 15
1) Spear of Fury (Recommended because it gives 2-4 free adrenalin)
2) Focused Anger ELITE (for adrenalin management)
3) Aggressive Refrain (Increased Attack Speed)
4) Go For the Eyes (for Energy-management)
5) Save Yourselves (4 seconds at rank 3-6)
6) There is Nothing to Fear
7) Leaders Comfort (self heal)
8) Signet of Return (Res)
I can almost keep Save yourselves up constant and in combo with There is nothing to Fear my party takes very little to no damage in Hard Mode. Great for Hard Mode area clearing.
I have had zero energy management issues with this build. You might also consider changing out Spear of Fury and Leaders comfort with a skill that does Fire damage and There on Fire, that would bring significant damage reduction.
Spear Mastery 10+1 11
Command 10+1 11
Leadership 11+1+3 15
1) Spear of Fury (Recommended because it gives 2-4 free adrenalin)
2) Focused Anger ELITE (for adrenalin management)
3) Aggressive Refrain (Increased Attack Speed)
4) Go For the Eyes (for Energy-management)
5) Save Yourselves (4 seconds at rank 3-6)
6) There is Nothing to Fear
7) Leaders Comfort (self heal)
8) Signet of Return (Res)
I can almost keep Save yourselves up constant and in combo with There is nothing to Fear my party takes very little to no damage in Hard Mode. Great for Hard Mode area clearing.
I have had zero energy management issues with this build. You might also consider changing out Spear of Fury and Leaders comfort with a skill that does Fire damage and There on Fire, that would bring significant damage reduction.
Racthoh
I can't see the logic behind a superior leadership rune in that build.
GloryFox
Quote:
I can't see the logic behind a superior leadership rune in that build. The reason is Focused Anger, in long battles the stronger adrenalin % is needed to maintain Save Yourselves. With the runes and equipment I use, thats 540 hp 35 Energy. So it's not like I'm lacking any hit points or anything.
Head 5 hp Leadership +1 Rune +3
Arms 5 hp Spear Mastery +1
Chest 3 E Command + 1
Legs 2 E 50 hp Rune
Feet 5 hp 10 hp Rune
Furthermore there are times I want There on Fire in my build.
pingu666
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Focused_Anger
AlienFromBeyond
Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryFox
The reason is Focused Anger, in long battles the stronger adrenalin % is needed to maintain Save Yourselves. With the runes and equipment I use, thats 540 hp 35 Energy. So it's not like I'm lacking any hit points or anything.
Head 5 hp Leadership +1 Rune +3
Arms 5 hp Spear Mastery +1
Chest 3 E Command + 1
Legs 2 E 50 hp Rune
Feet 5 hp 10 hp Rune
Furthermore there are times I want There on Fire in my build. Adrenaline increase is capped at 100% sadly. If your team has SF eles though, you should of course be using "They're on Fire!", and a higher leadership makes it prevent more damage.
Head 5 hp Leadership +1 Rune +3
Arms 5 hp Spear Mastery +1
Chest 3 E Command + 1
Legs 2 E 50 hp Rune
Feet 5 hp 10 hp Rune
Furthermore there are times I want There on Fire in my build. Adrenaline increase is capped at 100% sadly. If your team has SF eles though, you should of course be using "They're on Fire!", and a higher leadership makes it prevent more damage.
Racthoh
75 health isn't a good reason to pump They're On Fire! by an additional 4%, especially when you already have There's Nothing To Fear! on the same bar.
Quote:
Quote:
Arms 5 hp Spear Mastery +1
Chest 3 E Command + 1
Legs 2 E 50 hp Rune
Feet 5 hp 10 hp Rune 15 leadership is returning you 7 energy per shout, in some cases 6 depending on the number of humans that like to run away from the monks so getting everyone in your bubble is a lot harder. Save Yourselves! with Go For The Eyes! under Focussed Anger and Aggressive Refrain is going to return an absurd amount of energy. I do not see a reason to have an extra buffer of 5 energy over two more survivor insignias. If you need the extra energy to get your Aggressive Refrain maintained before combat, a +30/-2 energy set or even a simple +10 energy staff is more than enough start the shouting cycle until the initial combat begins. I could never see myself dropping below 5 energy with two adrenaline shouts.
With that build I would personally run 12 + 1 + 1 leadership, 8 + 1 command, and 10 + 1 spear with centurions all around. If your shield has a higher command req, you could swap it around with your spear since all you're doing is auto-attacking and the +damage from Spear of Fury comes from the title track anyway. With that change, you're looking at 2% less on your They're On Fire! when you sub it in, same duration for There's Nothing To Fear!, you'll still hit the healing cap on your self heal, and your energy return remains the same per shout. Go For The Eyes! has a lower critical rate (6%), and your Signet of Return is 1% less health on a res. But really, with a TNTF paragon in the group the only reason there should be deaths is because you decided to aggro three groups.
erfweiss
I run Leadership only at 12 so I can use command higher (I run 16 command for Go for the Eyes and Fall back (used when not in torment)). Means I can keep TNTF up constantly, as well, since 10 sec duration and recharge.
It's almost sick how much defense you can get with these builds. With Save yourselves and TNTF, my alliance tackled HM Gate of Madness. Shiro was a yappy puppy (no deaths to him).
My build for that was:
Command 16 (12+3+1)
Leadership 12 (11+1)
Spear 9 (8+1)
1. LB Gaze (Lvl 6)
2. Spear of Fury (Lvl 3)
3. Focused Anger
4. Save Yourselves
5. TNTF
6. Go for the Eyes
7. Anthem of Flame (optional spot, used since we had splinter barrage and two warriors with us).
8. Sig of return.
It's almost sick how much defense you can get with these builds. With Save yourselves and TNTF, my alliance tackled HM Gate of Madness. Shiro was a yappy puppy (no deaths to him).
My build for that was:
Command 16 (12+3+1)
Leadership 12 (11+1)
Spear 9 (8+1)
1. LB Gaze (Lvl 6)
2. Spear of Fury (Lvl 3)
3. Focused Anger
4. Save Yourselves
5. TNTF
6. Go for the Eyes
7. Anthem of Flame (optional spot, used since we had splinter barrage and two warriors with us).
8. Sig of return.
GloryFox
Thank you on the cap information for adrenalin, I will adjust my build accordingly. I was not aware of the 100% cap. Must be a PvP reason for it, but why would they make a skill that grants an insane amount of energy but cap it at 100%?
Frostblood
Anet hates paragons!! They nerfed TNTF!! It's at 20 second recharge thus, even with 16 leadership, that's 8 seconds of cooldown 
Omniclasm
The ironic thing is, its effectiveness has been HALVED and it is still by far the best skill that Paragons have.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniclasm
The ironic thing is, its effectiveness has been HALVED and it is still by far the best skill that Paragons have.
Very true, it's Incoming! on steroids.
Trx
Incoming on steriods doesn't mean much since Incoming is completely useless in PvE. Something completely useless on steriods can still suck bad 
. But seriously I woke up today, logged on to order GWEN and read the skill adjustment. Not that they will care about 1 less order but this adjustment made me hold mine off for now. Not because this skill would be 100% useless now but to nerf it on the night of GWENs release is just a kick in the balls.
Edit: I'm so weak lol, my initial irritation with this change ebbed away and I bought it anyways ... been looking forward to GWEN for a while, not gonna let a single skill ruin my fun!
. But seriously I woke up today, logged on to order GWEN and read the skill adjustment. Not that they will care about 1 less order but this adjustment made me hold mine off for now. Not because this skill would be 100% useless now but to nerf it on the night of GWENs release is just a kick in the balls.Edit: I'm so weak lol, my initial irritation with this change ebbed away and I bought it anyways ... been looking forward to GWEN for a while, not gonna let a single skill ruin my fun!
pgiustino
WHYYY!!!!!!???????
You know, I was fine with restarting the game every 5 seconds today to update to the thousands of new builds that kept popping up, but NOT when I found this new nerf.
It's a PVE skill for crying out loud! Sigh...I quit para. You know, all they had to do was take out the entire motivation line from the very beginning and everyone would be happy.
You know, I was fine with restarting the game every 5 seconds today to update to the thousands of new builds that kept popping up, but NOT when I found this new nerf.
It's a PVE skill for crying out loud! Sigh...I quit para. You know, all they had to do was take out the entire motivation line from the very beginning and everyone would be happy.
hurric
Yea seriously. Someone must really hate paras in that company. It's a PvE skill. Why are you picking on Paragons so much. One of important skills that made paragons valuable. Usually foW teams would take 1 paragon because it's really useful as a team booster. What are they supposed to do? Do more spear chugging? Sigh. Really disappointed. I hope this is reversed or thoughtout better (as someone in another forum mentioned have it attached to leadership so it can't be abused)
Henri Blanche
Greetings All!
I don't know what else to add, but I just don't understand why they nerfed the least-played class in the game. I mean, why not just get rid of Paragons altogether? Very sad day indeed.
And yes, it was just a PvE skill. So many other Paragon skills were nerfed because of PvP concerns. It was a hard pill to swallow but I at least understood the rationale. But who was complaining about this skill? The heket? The skree?
Now we're back to being pugless again.
Sigh.
Cheers, Henri
I don't know what else to add, but I just don't understand why they nerfed the least-played class in the game. I mean, why not just get rid of Paragons altogether? Very sad day indeed.
And yes, it was just a PvE skill. So many other Paragon skills were nerfed because of PvP concerns. It was a hard pill to swallow but I at least understood the rationale. But who was complaining about this skill? The heket? The skree?
Now we're back to being pugless again.
Sigh.
Cheers, Henri
Mad5cout
I am so pissed about this. Everytime paragons have an even semi decent skill, they nerf it. How many just completely kick anus builds can you think of for the other classes. Necro - MM, SV, SS, Bipper; Warrior - too many to count, Ele - SF, Air spiker, echo nuker (old school), the earth stuff is even semi decent now; monk - essential by definition and there are so many builds that work, Ranger - BP, Barrage, Interrupter, winter is SO helpful in many missions, Dervish - compared to these guys, paragons are like the NF ugly step-sister, Bath tank, Lyssa tank, etc., need I go on....
EVERYTIME the paragon gets a skill that even comes close to having a significant effect on gameplay, they nerf it. The ONE exception is GFTE. Now that I said that, they'll probably cut the % increase to crit in half tomorrow.
Name ONE build that is completely stand alone and does awesome 100% of the time like the builds above. There isn't one. Spear Spikers pale in comparison to warriors, monks and rits both heal better (unless you got like 5 shouters in your group), Bippers have ONE skill that makes all of our energy buffs combined look weak... GFTE spammer is probably the best but it is completely conditional on your party make up and how much physical damage the dish out (which is sort of the point). BUT, even then, the buffs are not significant enough for anyone in their right mind to ditch one of the "essential" character types for a paragon.
No.
Our skills are too conditional and the buffs are too weak for them to be attractive to a prospective party.
NEW SKILL SUGGESTION COMMENSURATE WITH CURRENT PARAGON SKILLS:
Name: "ANET BENDS US OVER!"
Attribute: Will you PLEASE let me be in your partySHIP
Type: Shout
Cost: 8 adrenaline (anyone notice warrior skills that cost this do like 50 extra damage?)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Effect: every other party member will have a 50% chance of doing 1-5% more damage when using their next skill that costs 10 or more energy. BUT only if it is a melee attack that is actually dealing elemental damage and only then if it is the second Tuesday of the month on a leap year.
ANets treatment of Paragons reminds me a lot of their treatment of pets for the first 2 years the game was out - A really cool game concept (probably one of the coolest) and they simply did not do anything with it. In fact, the pets were so bugged for almost 2 years they were more of a liability than a help. It wasn't until WOW announced that they were going to have mounts... not just pets, but pets you could friggin ride... that ANet even attempted to fix all of the problems. Hell, it was two years after the initial release and despite all the complaining in the forums, I STILL could not get my pet to go through the portals in the dragons lair. How hard is that to update....
Paragons had the potential to be the Paladin-like cross between a warrior and a party buffer/healer (as their design indicates). In every other RPG I have ever played, the Paladin is one of the most solid and essential character types. IN GW, Paragons are completely underminded time and time again and ANet doesn't seem to give a crap that we have to go through the whole game with heroes and henchies just to have a chance to complete the game because no party in their right mind would pick us up.
Thanks for solidifying our second tier citizenship ANet!!! Please consider my skill suggestion.
EVERYTIME the paragon gets a skill that even comes close to having a significant effect on gameplay, they nerf it. The ONE exception is GFTE. Now that I said that, they'll probably cut the % increase to crit in half tomorrow.
Name ONE build that is completely stand alone and does awesome 100% of the time like the builds above. There isn't one. Spear Spikers pale in comparison to warriors, monks and rits both heal better (unless you got like 5 shouters in your group), Bippers have ONE skill that makes all of our energy buffs combined look weak... GFTE spammer is probably the best but it is completely conditional on your party make up and how much physical damage the dish out (which is sort of the point). BUT, even then, the buffs are not significant enough for anyone in their right mind to ditch one of the "essential" character types for a paragon.
No.
Our skills are too conditional and the buffs are too weak for them to be attractive to a prospective party.
NEW SKILL SUGGESTION COMMENSURATE WITH CURRENT PARAGON SKILLS:
Name: "ANET BENDS US OVER!"
Attribute: Will you PLEASE let me be in your partySHIP
Type: Shout
Cost: 8 adrenaline (anyone notice warrior skills that cost this do like 50 extra damage?)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Effect: every other party member will have a 50% chance of doing 1-5% more damage when using their next skill that costs 10 or more energy. BUT only if it is a melee attack that is actually dealing elemental damage and only then if it is the second Tuesday of the month on a leap year.
ANets treatment of Paragons reminds me a lot of their treatment of pets for the first 2 years the game was out - A really cool game concept (probably one of the coolest) and they simply did not do anything with it. In fact, the pets were so bugged for almost 2 years they were more of a liability than a help. It wasn't until WOW announced that they were going to have mounts... not just pets, but pets you could friggin ride... that ANet even attempted to fix all of the problems. Hell, it was two years after the initial release and despite all the complaining in the forums, I STILL could not get my pet to go through the portals in the dragons lair. How hard is that to update....
Paragons had the potential to be the Paladin-like cross between a warrior and a party buffer/healer (as their design indicates). In every other RPG I have ever played, the Paladin is one of the most solid and essential character types. IN GW, Paragons are completely underminded time and time again and ANet doesn't seem to give a crap that we have to go through the whole game with heroes and henchies just to have a chance to complete the game because no party in their right mind would pick us up.
Thanks for solidifying our second tier citizenship ANet!!! Please consider my skill suggestion.
SleepyLuxon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad5cout
EVERYTIME the paragon gets a skill that even comes close to having a significant effect on gameplay, they nerf it. The ONE exception is GFTE. Now that I said that, they'll probably cut the % increase to crit in half tomorrow.
Name ONE build that is completely stand alone and does awesome 100% of the time like the builds above. There isn't one. Spear Spikers pale in comparison to warriors, monks and rits both heal better (unless you got like 5 shouters in your group), Bippers have ONE skill that makes all of our energy buffs combined look weak... GFTE spammer is probably the best but it is completely conditional on your party make up and how much physical damage the dish out (which is sort of the point). BUT, even then, the buffs are not significant enough for anyone in their right mind to ditch one of the "essential" character types for a paragon.
No.
Our skills are too conditional and the buffs are too weak for them to be attractive to a prospective party.
NEW SKILL SUGGESTION COMMENSURATE WITH CURRENT PARAGON SKILLS:
Name: "ANET BENDS US OVER!"
Attribute: Will you PLEASE let me be in your partySHIP
Type: Shout
Cost: 8 adrenaline (anyone notice warrior skills that cost this do like 50 extra damage?)
Recharge: 60 seconds
Effect: every other party member will have a 50% chance of doing 1-5% more damage when using their next skill that costs 10 or more energy. BUT only if it is a melee attack that is actually dealing elemental damage and only then if it is the second Tuesday of the month on a leap year.
ANets treatment of Paragons reminds me a lot of their treatment of pets for the first 2 years the game was out - A really cool game concept (probably one of the coolest) and they simply did not do anything with it. In fact, the pets were so bugged for almost 2 years they were more of a liability than a help. It wasn't until WOW announced that they were going to have mounts... not just pets, but pets you could friggin ride... that ANet even attempted to fix all of the problems. Hell, it was two years after the initial release and despite all the complaining in the forums, I STILL could not get my pet to go through the portals in the dragons lair. How hard is that to update....
Paragons had the potential to be the Paladin-like cross between a warrior and a party buffer/healer (as their design indicates). In every other RPG I have ever played, the Paladin is one of the most solid and essential character types. IN GW, Paragons are completely underminded time and time again and ANet doesn't seem to give a crap that we have to go through the whole game with heroes and henchies just to have a chance to complete the game because no party in their right mind would pick us up.
Thanks for solidifying our second tier citizenship ANet!!! Please consider my skill suggestion.
I agree with you so much!! The paragon is a good class regardless of these nerfs that keep happening but we are limited to what we can do every single PvE para used TNTF it was a staple for us and basically our best shout. We then get nailed in the face especially for us paragons who dont want to be forced to H/H everywhere and have farmed for this skill. Right before GW:EN as well just knowing how they treat paragons has made me decide not to buy the game because they probably will nerf our sweet new gwen skills as well. Because MM's will say Holy spear is to OP its like we have no right no say that something of their's is OP to us but as soon as we get 1 skill that changes everyone else's game style we get nerfed cause we were the mistake!
We are not a mistake if you love paragon play the class through the nerfs show the community you can still make it without skills at a decent level of effectiveness keep fighting the good fight.
Mad5cout
I guess I agree that all we can do is fight the "good fight". I guess I'm just pissed because: do they nerf SF cause it can still waste an entire group of enemies even in hard mode in like 20 seconds? No. Do they nerf SV cause it can waste any boss in like 30 seconds? No... Do they nerf Life Bond and Bathazar spirit cause you can basically keep any tank alive indefinitely with the combo? No... Do they nerf any chain of warrior skills even though you can basically put any single enemy down in less than 10 seconds when its combo'ed correctly? No... They still allow solo builds to work and they still allow power builds for every single class to exsist except for one...
They choose to nerf the one of two skills that actually works CORRECTLY for paragons to make it half @$$ed and weak and in the interest of "balancing" us to other classes... COMPLETE HORSEPUCKY. It is not even just this one skill that bothers me. It's every nerf they've put in from the beginning for paragons even though we had already been dealt a short hand and its the fact that these "uber-GWEN" skills you mentioned don't exsist. What the hell am I gonna do with converting my spear damage to holy damage. ooo... thanks.... How about some more low adrenaline party shouts for energy maintenance that actually do something. How about a cripple attack that doesn't have a prequisite or adrenaline as a cost? The whole friggin problem is people running out of range of our spear... (the new spear attack requires bleeding which requires adrenaline to put on) How the heck is an adrenaline skill gonna help me with that?!?!
Simply put.... W... T... F...
They choose to nerf the one of two skills that actually works CORRECTLY for paragons to make it half @$$ed and weak and in the interest of "balancing" us to other classes... COMPLETE HORSEPUCKY. It is not even just this one skill that bothers me. It's every nerf they've put in from the beginning for paragons even though we had already been dealt a short hand and its the fact that these "uber-GWEN" skills you mentioned don't exsist. What the hell am I gonna do with converting my spear damage to holy damage. ooo... thanks.... How about some more low adrenaline party shouts for energy maintenance that actually do something. How about a cripple attack that doesn't have a prequisite or adrenaline as a cost? The whole friggin problem is people running out of range of our spear... (the new spear attack requires bleeding which requires adrenaline to put on) How the heck is an adrenaline skill gonna help me with that?!?!
Simply put.... W... T... F...
SleepyLuxon
Holy Spear is low adrenaline dmg and has conditional holy damage for low adrenaline so its still decent but yeah i agree with you completely. If the paragon skills contradict or even are super effective against another classes cookie cutter builds then we are nerfed for "balance" what balance is this?
After the nerf to TNTF and Seed of life they make Seed of life 5 energy the next day and leave TNTF untouched if we even run 16 leadership we have 8 sec downtime which is just crazy.
There has to be balance if you nerf our best shout buff the useless ones!
After the nerf to TNTF and Seed of life they make Seed of life 5 energy the next day and leave TNTF untouched if we even run 16 leadership we have 8 sec downtime which is just crazy.
There has to be balance if you nerf our best shout buff the useless ones!
Trx
They probably received 10 times more feedback from angry monks then they did from paragons if not more.
What bothers me is they develop these PvE skills for weeks or months, giving them time to balance it. I understand that when they put them on live certain issues might arrise that they didnt account for while testing so they adjust the skills some after release, which they did with alot of PvE skills including TNTF. Then they go ahead and let us use the skills for MONTHS only to decide on the release of their new expansion its about twice as powerfull as ever intented. That is just a plain bad job from their balancing team imo. With Seed of Life at least there was some gimmick build people made that allowed for the skill to be 'abused'. With TNTF there isn't any gimmick build, its a plain and simple skill that they could have adjusted a long time ago, or could have adjusted in a less drastic way then freaking double its recharge time. Its a lazy solution to a problem that for most people didnt even exist. Sure now you have these wiseguys screaming how the nerf was justified but I never heard them before, I never hear them about how the majority of the other paragon skills suck ass and most of them probably don't even play a paragon.
And I agree, this just adds to the continueing stream of nerfs paragons have been getting since launch. Balance does not mean nerf into the ground. There is a reason there are so little paragons in PvE, and its not just because of the silly skirts.
What bothers me is they develop these PvE skills for weeks or months, giving them time to balance it. I understand that when they put them on live certain issues might arrise that they didnt account for while testing so they adjust the skills some after release, which they did with alot of PvE skills including TNTF. Then they go ahead and let us use the skills for MONTHS only to decide on the release of their new expansion its about twice as powerfull as ever intented. That is just a plain bad job from their balancing team imo. With Seed of Life at least there was some gimmick build people made that allowed for the skill to be 'abused'. With TNTF there isn't any gimmick build, its a plain and simple skill that they could have adjusted a long time ago, or could have adjusted in a less drastic way then freaking double its recharge time. Its a lazy solution to a problem that for most people didnt even exist. Sure now you have these wiseguys screaming how the nerf was justified but I never heard them before, I never hear them about how the majority of the other paragon skills suck ass and most of them probably don't even play a paragon.
And I agree, this just adds to the continueing stream of nerfs paragons have been getting since launch. Balance does not mean nerf into the ground. There is a reason there are so little paragons in PvE, and its not just because of the silly skirts.
SleepyLuxon
Good Post Trx well said.
I think the irony is that most of the people who wanted it nerfed dont realize we dont have many options because most of the paragon skills are just plain useless and its not like the skill was making them not play this game.
Their are not many PvE paragons out there and by nerfing the paragon PvE skill especially at the worst time right before the release date of GW:EN just seems silly.
With GW:EN it seems they introduced more spear skills which is good and bad. Spearagons will love these new skills but They might get nerfed because they are actually usefull omg! And thinking if a Warrior went W/P could probably throw spears with flail and FGJ just seems outta touch.
Truth be told we need buffs not nerfs our elites are just so flawed its pathetic.
Incoming! - Was abused in PvP now its just useless needs reworking big time.
Focused Anger- It was great and then they buffed FGJ it might last longer but most fights dont last that long. Plus the adrenaline gain is capped at 100% so the skill lies to us at high leadership. In PvP the fights may last that long but still the cap is annoying.
Angelic Bond - Its Unstrippable so it shouldnt reduce the damage but please give us an icon showing the duration and who it is on! because you can die very easily if not.
Soldier's Fury - was a nice PvE alternative to using Aggresive refrain since we could keep TNTF up constantly now u could probably keep it up with FGJ but then again why bring SF and FGJ when FGJ and Aggresive Refrain is a Better Combo. (If they nerf AR that will be a sad day)
The Power Is Yours!- Never Give Up! just puts this skill to shame.......Regardless if its conditional, sure you could swap sets or use it at only 10 energy but then your not getting much energy for a couple secounds those could mean alot.
Stunning Strike - This skill is a bit usefull but ounce again conditional, this skill wont be needed since most para's will use spear swipe instead from GW:EN.
Song Of Purification - good effect but its conditional ounce again not that horrible but may be outshunned by Cautery Signet and It's Just a flesh wound! (Alot of Condition Removal Skills :O)
Defensive Anthem - a beautifull skill still quite good for organized teams that can communicate not to use an attack skill. just useless with mainly any unorganized pug.
The Rest are remotly usefull and some of those are even conditional.
So point being is the nerf was to harsh a 15 sec recharge would have been perfect 3 sec downtime at 16 leadership is better then 8 secounds!
Go Paragons!
I think the irony is that most of the people who wanted it nerfed dont realize we dont have many options because most of the paragon skills are just plain useless and its not like the skill was making them not play this game.
Their are not many PvE paragons out there and by nerfing the paragon PvE skill especially at the worst time right before the release date of GW:EN just seems silly.
With GW:EN it seems they introduced more spear skills which is good and bad. Spearagons will love these new skills but They might get nerfed because they are actually usefull omg! And thinking if a Warrior went W/P could probably throw spears with flail and FGJ just seems outta touch.
Truth be told we need buffs not nerfs our elites are just so flawed its pathetic.
Incoming! - Was abused in PvP now its just useless needs reworking big time.
Focused Anger- It was great and then they buffed FGJ it might last longer but most fights dont last that long. Plus the adrenaline gain is capped at 100% so the skill lies to us at high leadership. In PvP the fights may last that long but still the cap is annoying.
Angelic Bond - Its Unstrippable so it shouldnt reduce the damage but please give us an icon showing the duration and who it is on! because you can die very easily if not.
Soldier's Fury - was a nice PvE alternative to using Aggresive refrain since we could keep TNTF up constantly now u could probably keep it up with FGJ but then again why bring SF and FGJ when FGJ and Aggresive Refrain is a Better Combo. (If they nerf AR that will be a sad day)
The Power Is Yours!- Never Give Up! just puts this skill to shame.......Regardless if its conditional, sure you could swap sets or use it at only 10 energy but then your not getting much energy for a couple secounds those could mean alot.
Stunning Strike - This skill is a bit usefull but ounce again conditional, this skill wont be needed since most para's will use spear swipe instead from GW:EN.
Song Of Purification - good effect but its conditional ounce again not that horrible but may be outshunned by Cautery Signet and It's Just a flesh wound! (Alot of Condition Removal Skills :O)
Defensive Anthem - a beautifull skill still quite good for organized teams that can communicate not to use an attack skill. just useless with mainly any unorganized pug.
The Rest are remotly usefull and some of those are even conditional.
So point being is the nerf was to harsh a 15 sec recharge would have been perfect 3 sec downtime at 16 leadership is better then 8 secounds!
Go Paragons!
Trx
The good part about most of our elites being useless in PvE is you can use Echo to keep TNTF up longer 
... somebody made some joke about using echo for it somewhere on these boards but I've been trying it and it works ok. At 14 leadership (which is what I run) it lasts 11 sec + 11 sec from echo'd version + 11 sec again from recharged TNTF. Then 9 sec downtime and go thru the cycle again. Extremely sad I have to use an elite from another profession for it but it sorta works.
I'm pretty curious what their plan for the paragon in PvE is though. Izzy and his crew are only worried about the paragon in PvP (he wants to nerf Aggresive Refrain pretty bad), which is understandable since PvP is all about balance but they should have left our PvE skill alone. After 4-5 days im still pissed lol ...
And wow, an entire month worth of topics on the first page of the paragon boards, pretty awesome.
... somebody made some joke about using echo for it somewhere on these boards but I've been trying it and it works ok. At 14 leadership (which is what I run) it lasts 11 sec + 11 sec from echo'd version + 11 sec again from recharged TNTF. Then 9 sec downtime and go thru the cycle again. Extremely sad I have to use an elite from another profession for it but it sorta works.I'm pretty curious what their plan for the paragon in PvE is though. Izzy and his crew are only worried about the paragon in PvP (he wants to nerf Aggresive Refrain pretty bad), which is understandable since PvP is all about balance but they should have left our PvE skill alone. After 4-5 days im still pissed lol
And wow, an entire month worth of topics on the first page of the paragon boards, pretty awesome.
SleepyLuxon
Echo seems to work really well been using it, TNTF goes through 3 cycles without a downtime and it seems to keep up long enough for fights so thats good..but no more Save Yourselves or Shield's Up with it 
.
Aggressive refain i dont think is that overpowered tbh it requires some skill management if your out of a fight to keep up, but people complain of a passive IAS and i cant really blame em but if your gonna nerf it dont nerf it to uselessness which probably would happen
.Aggressive refain i dont think is that overpowered tbh it requires some skill management if your out of a fight to keep up, but people complain of a passive IAS and i cant really blame em but if your gonna nerf it dont nerf it to uselessness which probably would happen
hlc617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trx
(he wants to nerf Aggresive Refrain pretty bad)
WRYYYYYY???
Man, I'm glad everyone else is pissed off by the tntf nerf. I'm terrified they're going to nerf Anthem of Weariness because it's OMG a very useful long lasting condition you don't have to spend a lot of energy on or wait for adrenaline for!! UT OH a good para skill DD:
But yeah, is it just me or was TntF not able to be kept up indefinitely hardly anyway because of the energy cost? I mean yeah, you could get enough energy fairly fast, but there was still downtime anyway even w/ a 10 second recharge >:|. The 20 second recharge just gives you more time in which you spend more energy and end up having to wait longer than the recharge time to use the skill again, just like with the 10 second recharge :|.
I'm going to laugh when they make it to where you can't get your Leadership bonus in the animal forms from shouts x). OMG SLIGHTEST ADVANTAGE IN PVE? Nerf!
Man, I'm glad everyone else is pissed off by the tntf nerf. I'm terrified they're going to nerf Anthem of Weariness because it's OMG a very useful long lasting condition you don't have to spend a lot of energy on or wait for adrenaline for!! UT OH a good para skill DD:
But yeah, is it just me or was TntF not able to be kept up indefinitely hardly anyway because of the energy cost? I mean yeah, you could get enough energy fairly fast, but there was still downtime anyway even w/ a 10 second recharge >:|. The 20 second recharge just gives you more time in which you spend more energy and end up having to wait longer than the recharge time to use the skill again, just like with the 10 second recharge :|.
I'm going to laugh when they make it to where you can't get your Leadership bonus in the animal forms from shouts x). OMG SLIGHTEST ADVANTAGE IN PVE? Nerf!
FeroxC
I come back and theyve nerfed my favourite character Paragon AGAIN this one was truly unexpected and unjustified all that sunspear farming only to make it USELESS.
WTF is wrong with these incompetant balancers they should be nerfing the big three not the least popular race.
Ive been loyal for Prophecies,factions(which i didnt like/barely played) and Nightfall. I was excited only just now i found out GWEN was out, now im just angry. I dont know wheather i should give up on on Guildwars now, what do you guys think honest opion of GWEN ?
WTF is wrong with these incompetant balancers they should be nerfing the big three not the least popular race.
Ive been loyal for Prophecies,factions(which i didnt like/barely played) and Nightfall. I was excited only just now i found out GWEN was out, now im just angry. I dont know wheather i should give up on on Guildwars now, what do you guys think honest opion of GWEN ?
Effendi Westland
Paragons useless?
Even after the nerf, they can do this:
Even after the nerf, they can do this: