Bows: are they underpowered?

iridescentfyre

iridescentfyre

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
I usually play sword or axe warrior experimenting with hammer. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Hammer_Mastery_skills

There's two that cause Deep Wound

Miss Mikame

Miss Mikame

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

The Fergalicious [WoW]

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Quote:
There's two that cause Deep Wound HEH im sure 15 arrows stuck in ya would cause deep wound too

Faer

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureEvilYak
Oh really?
vvvv Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
asuran scan and triple shot both have cast times. for triple shot, it's close to 2 seconds as it is a standard bow attack. therefore, you did not kill your target in 1 second. Ya, rly.

iridescentfyre

iridescentfyre

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Mikame
HEH im sure 15 arrows stuck in ya would cause deep wound too Logically, yes. But personally I'm not surprised Anet decided that getting a deep wound from nearly twice your aggro bubble away was unbalanced.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

I am surprised, however, that they gave a deep wound to the spear.

PureEvilYak

PureEvilYak

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Somewhere Luxon Alignment: Chaos

The Dark Fortress

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
Ya, rly. Hmm.... I wouldn't count Asuran Scan, as you can cast it before aggroing. And if you still consider it to count, well, you may as well see all preparations as part of the time as well, which renders every ranger DPS, and likely every other DPS calculation useless.

However, I must concede that from aggro to death, the damage probably lasted over a period of 3-5 seconds. However, the actual part where I did damage to my foe was between 1-2 seconds, which is a spike if I ever saw one.

Riccari

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

Wolverhampton, West Midlands, England

Build Wars [gg]

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Apoligies for not reading 11 pages of text, so forgive me if the following has already been mentioned.

Basing this next paragraph entirely on the title of the topic: 'Bows: are they underpowered?' The simple answer is, no.

Rangers get 5 types of bows (Recurve/Hornbow/Flatbow/Longbow/Shortbow) and none of those are particularly overpowered in any way. The concept is that while one bow may be good at one aspect of the game, the others are better at the other aspects.

Take the Flatbow for instance, being able to kill an Archer without even so much as stepping in their aggro bubble, yet alone take a single point of damage, is not by any means underpowered. Quite the opposite.

The Recurve Bow is probably the most robust due to its balanced refire rate and increased accuracy, which is probably what is hinted at underpowered because bows don't do as much damage as typical Warrior and Dervish weapons. The main reason for this is the general position of that Warriors and Dervishs are melee classes and must be next to targets to hit them. Granted you literally must be standing next to your target to hit them with the bow due to the natures of strafing and dodging, standing next to the proposed target isn't so bad. Shorter distance to travel is more hits.

Spears are overpowered, but that's only due to Agressive Refrain.

Even though bows damage aren't that high. The passive disruption of interupting key skills and posion on 3 or more targets makes up for that. I like the fact to be able to hit anyone I want without so much as moving. Also the fact that Rangers are technically invicible on splits (unless they venture too far forward and have Natural Stride killed by Freezing Gust) makes up for any underpoweredness bows may posess.

Wild Karrde

Wild Karrde

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riccari

Rangers get 5 types of bows (Recurve/Hornbow/Flatbow/Longbow/Shortbow) and none of those are particularly overpowered in any way. The concept is that while one bow may be good at one aspect of the game, the others are better at the other aspects.

Take the Flatbow for instance, being able to kill an Archer without even so much as stepping in their aggro bubble, yet alone take a single point of damage, is not by any means underpowered. Quite the opposite.

The Recurve Bow is probably the most robust due to its balanced refire rate and increased accuracy, which is probably what is hinted at underpowered because bows don't do as much damage as typical Warrior and Dervish weapons. The main reason for this is the general position of that Warriors and Dervishs are melee classes and must be next to targets to hit them. Granted you literally must be standing next to your target to hit them with the bow due to the natures of strafing and dodging, standing next to the proposed target isn't so bad. Shorter distance to travel is more hits.

Spears are overpowered, but that's only due to Agressive Refrain.

Even though bows damage aren't that high. The passive disruption of interupting key skills and posion on 3 or more targets makes up for that. I like the fact to be able to hit anyone I want without so much as moving. Also the fact that Rangers are technically invicible on splits (unless they venture too far forward and have Natural Stride killed by Freezing Gust) makes up for any underpoweredness bows may posess.
You contradict yourself alot here. First you say bows have different properties for different situations, then you say you can kill things form way far away wit a flatbow, then you say that the recurve bow is the most accurate but you have to be standing right next to your target to hit it because of it moving and dodging so much, wich then negates the ability of being able to attack from afar, like warriors and dervishes cant. And the Flat bows rediculously high arc makes it even harder to hit your target form afar.

So based on this it really doesnt matter how far away you can shoot at a target, because you have to get right next to it to hit it if it moves. So trees are easy to kill; anything with legs and feet... good luck. (this is what you are saying)

Shorter distance to travel DOES NOT mean more hits, unless you are talking about how many of your shots actually strike the target, a bows refire rate doenst change no matter how close or far you are from your target.

Do you have ANY idea what passive means??? Nothing about the ranger is passive interuption. Passive means it just happens, you dont have to do crap or hit a skill or anything it just happens. Rangers DO NOT have a passive ability to interupt key skills. You have to have skill yourself to interupt some of the faster casting skills.

And for your poison/degen comment the answer is this.
Quote: Exactly. its not hard to belive seeing as some people can pop arrows off
at ripping speeds. if you apply it to GW F then Assasins Critical eye skill And
Rangers Power Shot or Pin down
Right in the butt and you couldnt walk.

Ouch
but unfortunately that doesnt work with programming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I agree that the bow has good interrupting capacity; I disagree that it's a particularly great degen spreader - in that it's not the bow that does that. Apply Poison can be used with anything, granted the bow and spear are the only ranged weapons, hence their usefulness in spreading conditions. The bow skills themselves are largely lousy at spreading conditions, with the exception of crippling shot, and there are only two conditions that can be "spread" via preparations, one can be used with any weapon, bleeding can be spread either via Melandru's Arrows or Barbed Arrows. How often do you see bleeding being spread that way though?

Bows can inflict daze, cripple, bleeding, burning (via elites) and poison (via elite bow attack, or via apply poison for any weapon); daze and burning aren't spreadable, cripple is only via an elite, posion can be spread via apply poison by anyone.

Given how strong condition removal is, and the heal party-type skills that have become prominent (LoD, paragon skills etc.) spreading degen isn't really that strong - sure, it can help, but you are handing out heals to some extent versus condition removal, and the pressure is easily handled by most any team - I don't buy that it's particularly great.

Every other weapon can deep wound, all but hammers can bleed and cripple, only bows, daggers and spears give viable dazes really, unless you use Awe with a hammer, burning can be delivered by spears in a non-elite manner, Poison can be done via apply poison by any X/R, or by bows and daggers, weakness by hammers and axes (and any melee weapon via melee attacks), blind by hammers and daggers, hammers and daggers can KD, as can melee weapons via melee attack skills.

So, in the age of pressure via conditions being handled more easily and condition handling skills being buffed, which is handier - spreading a bit of degen or the ability to deep wound/knockdown? I get why bows don't have a deepwound - it'd make spiking with them so nasty, but paragons have deep wound at a range, and the assassins have gotten a ton of deep wound delivery systems.

To me, the condition argument doesn't wash. I'll agree that they disrupt effectively - that's certainly true. Distracting/Savage are what allows the bow to function in essence. Back before LoD and various other pressure relief skills spreading poison was powerful, now it's ok. Giving up an elite to spread bleeding is unlikely, and barbed arrows is simply inferior to apply poison.

Miss Mikame

Miss Mikame

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

The Fergalicious [WoW]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I am surprised, however, that they gave a deep wound to the spear.
The passive disruption of interupting key skills and posion on 3 or more targets makes up for that True but I do find Skill interuption with a bow to be more difficult with a bow.
daggers are much better for that i reckon, no travel time.
Gess im not "Pro" enough - more practice i guess archery is a fine art and
im pretty sure you can get an archers degree.

This is a good Thread though

zling

zling

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Karrde
Do you have ANY idea what passive means??? Nothing about the ranger is passive interuption. Passive means it just happens, you dont have to do crap or hit a skill or anything it just happens. Rangers DO NOT have a passive ability to interupt key skills. You have to have skill yourself to interupt some of the faster casting skills.

And for your poison/degen comment the answer is this. psst look at [skill]choking gas[/skill] before you make that comment
passive ranger interrupter=Practiced Stance->Choking Gas->whatever else in most cases, dropped Practiced Stance for something else if you want...

Wild Karrde

Wild Karrde

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zling
psst look at [skill]choking gas[/skill] before you make that comment
passive ranger interrupter=Practiced Stance->Choking Gas->whatever else in most cases, dropped Practiced Stance for something else if you want... Psst its still not passive; you had to put the preparation on in the first place. and what are the chances of you hitting your target at the right time to interupt it or something near it without an IAS or something speeding up the slow refire rate. Its all chance then. And by your logic the daze from BHA is passive.... its not you had to shoot the enemy with BHA in the first place to daze it. something passive is permanent. Chocking Gas and daze from BHA are not permanent. I know you can permanantly keep chocking gas up, but its still you having to use two skills to do it which means its not passive, Plus it can be interupted, something passive cant cause its always there. kthxbye

Miss Mikame

Miss Mikame

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

The Fergalicious [WoW]

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Wowza How stupid of me, Lol i use that skill all the time.

Pericles

Pericles

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Join Date: May 2007

[GoD]

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I am absolutely going to go crazy if I see one more person bringing up the argument of 'Rangers have lots of utility + interrupts and need to spread conditions' THIS ARGUMENT IS MUTE!!!!!! (not correct/valid)
because OTHER CLASSES CAN DO THE SAME, paragons can apply Deep Wound for heavens sake, from a distance!, furthermore they can apply every single condition rangers can with the exception of poison.

Conclusion:
1.Give the rangers some sort of damage buff
OR
2.Give the other classes less conditions so rangers become more exclusive


Also rangers are NOT used in high-end pvp, all the the other classes are.
Everyone who says they are are talking about minor exceptions or are lying.
Period.

BlackSephir

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
... There's no class (maybe except Mesmer) that can interrupt as good as Ranger.
Dis shot, savage shot, chocking gas, Distrupting Shot, BHA...

But nice going, comparing Ranger to Paragon, broken class #1.

moriz

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
Also rangers are NOT used in high-end pvp, all the the other classes are.
Everyone who says they are are talking about minor exceptions or are lying.
Period. you are dumb.

Seren!ty

Seren!ty

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

[iDum]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
Also rangers are NOT used in high-end pvp, all the the other classes are.
Everyone who says they are are talking about minor exceptions or are lying.
Period. Ummm... lol? Ever heard of RaO?

Stormlord Alex

Stormlord Alex

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Beyond the Forest of Doom, past the Cavern of Agony... on Kitten & Puppy Island

Soul of Melandru [sOm]

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And Cripshot.
And Burning Arrow.
Heck, even Escape rangers probably get used somewhere...
Archers are very strong skirmishers.

Miss Mikame

Miss Mikame

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2007

The Fergalicious [WoW]

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Ive packed lotsa practice into my interupt build.

last game i played we had me the ranger an monk and 2 warriors. Monk heals, The warriors tank it out and im sittn there poppn of shots and interupting every other skill.
Let me tell you that is a wicked combination.

Theres nothing more fun than seeing your enimies spaz out cos they cant do anything useful.

pfff try to tell me that bows are under powered

Roscow

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Sep 2007

Phat Lewters

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cataphract
Why is a KD from any type of bow ridiculous? I mean, arrows fired from a longbow have enough kinetic energy to pierce armor and knock a target down. All I'm saying that a skil, elite one to keep it balanced, requiring a longbow or a hornbow could have KD. We all ready have Pin Down that basically says it will hit a target in the leg or foot and cripple it. A KD skill would hit on the chest. It's a simple matter of RL physics. There's a law in physics saying that you can not PRODUCE energy, only CONVERT it. Which means you'd have to use enough power to knock yourself down, if you wan't to knock your opponent down by pure kinetic energy.

In many Hollywood movies you see people fly, being hit by bullets from a gun. This is not possible, and it's a mere film trick.. There's not enough potential energy, that you can convert to kinetic. Sure there is a recoil.. But I don't see many people being knockdowned by that

But there's lot's of other ways to knockdown with a bow - as mentioned.
In my opinion there should be a crippeling bow attack, which when it hit a moving target, would knock him down for a brief period of time. Might do some bonus damage and be an elite?

Mr_Cynical

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

Scotland

Region of Chosen Kings [R.O.C.K]

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Bows underpowered? Not really. In PvP they are not supposed to be a damage-dealing class, but a general utility class. The Ranger's PvP specialisms are degen (burning arrow/apply poison mostly), interrupts and snares (Cripshot et al). In PvE, well... if you think bows are underpowered there you've obviously never seen a Splinter Barrager at work :P

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
I am absolutely going to go crazy if I see one more person bringing up the argument of 'Rangers have lots of utility + interrupts and need to spread conditions' THIS ARGUMENT IS MUTE!!!!!! (not correct/valid)
because OTHER CLASSES CAN DO THE SAME, paragons can apply Deep Wound for heavens sake, from a distance!, furthermore they can apply every single condition rangers can with the exception of poison.

Conclusion:
1.Give the rangers some sort of damage buff
OR
2.Give the other classes less conditions so rangers become more exclusive


Also rangers are NOT used in high-end pvp, all the the other classes are.
Everyone who says they are are talking about minor exceptions or are lying.
Period. Paragons don't interrupt nearly as well as rangers. In addition, their range doesn't reach as far as a ranger's.

Ranger themselves are exclusive enough.

Irish Ranger

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2007

Che

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I think bows are just fine. Guild Wars imo is one of the few games of it's type to actually get bows right. Other games i play like Neverwinter nights bows and bow classes are underpowered and completely ignored. Why change something that works? Maybe the different types of bows could be changed slightly to make them a bit more interesting?

elektra_lucia

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

England

Leteci is [sexy]

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Quote:
I am absolutely going to go crazy if I see one more person bringing up the argument of 'Rangers have lots of utility + interrupts and need to spread conditions' THIS ARGUMENT IS MUTE!!!!!! (not correct/valid) It's a perfectly valid argument. I think bows are fine as they are; in addition, if you're going to explain what mute means (while in capital letters) I suggest you find out for yourself. Mute does not mean 'not correct/valid'. It means silent, I think the word you are looking for is 'moot' perhaps . I wouldn't normally correct such a thing but you went into such trouble explaining, with your brackets and shift key pressed down I felt obligated to help .

Moonlit Azure

Moonlit Azure

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2007

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Bows are perfectly fine the way they are. Rangers aren't to be doing the most damage imo.

iridescentfyre

iridescentfyre

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles
THIS ARGUMENT IS MUTE!!!!!! (not correct/valid) Moot
Yeah, I just corrected a two month old spelling error. What of it?

Irish Ranger

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2007

Che

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Maybe the problem isn't the damage of the bow but the fact that 80% (guess obviously =p) of the bow skills aren't used. Most rangers have near enough the same skills on their skill bar. If you look at the marksmanship skills so many are completely useless and the recharge is ridiculous for what they do. Some of them do the exact same thing. I'd like to see these skills improved (not necessarily damage) to make them more appealable and not have every single ranger an identikit of each other and to get the rangers who ignore bows back using them. Btw does anyone use hornbows?

But apart from the lack of varying effective builds due to pointless bow skills the ranger is extremely effective in battle.

Bring magebane, savage and distract to battle and you can shut down casters completely and make it alot easier to interrupt rof etc. Quickshot and needle with kindle/ignite can be effective. The ranger is powerful at what they do. Be a warrior if you want to see huge numbers all the time.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

in before close
thread necromancy is baed!
(ive always wanted to say that)

John Panda

John Panda

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you know this all depends on what situation your using a bow in

for example if your using a longbow with barrage is underpowered but thats why you have such things as flatbows and recurves bows are not underpowered they have certain things they can do that recurvers are for general purpose longbows are for pulling flatbows are for barraging

Wakka

Wakka

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Northern Ireland

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Flatbow's are only useful for Barrage if your bring FW.

L-I-E-S

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2007

Temple Discordia

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12 pages in.

No one has considered the crossbow. ANet included.

This thread is full of fail.

ensoriki

ensoriki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2006

Canada bro.

A/D

Rangers aren't used in High end pvp?
[card]Crippling Shot[/card]
kthxbai, you'll be glad you did.

Rangers are deadly man, Also other classes do the same? pfft....ignorance is bliss isn't it?

Ashe.

Ashe.

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

Tales Of Glory[ePiC]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
I really think they do. Scythes have the bonus of hitting multiple targets. They have a good IAS and they attack faster than most bows. Along with having a much higher critical hit. Spears have almost identical damage. I've found they seem to miss much less than Shortbows, could just be coincidence, they attack much faster and are 1 handed.

I'll give it 5 seconds before some prick interprets this post as 'i want my Ranger to shoot enemies through the heart, killing them in 1 hit'. Haha that's why I hated Rangers when I first started playing. :P

Liquid Wood

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2007

Inspired by [lyss]

Me/E

I mean sure bows alone don't do super damage alone but once you apply preps and use bow attacks you can't really complain.

As far as high end PvP, rangers are very handy and bothersome. Ever heard of the ranger spike groups (they kick ass btw)

Wakka

Wakka

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Northern Ireland

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Ranger spikes are a bit old lol suppose you could still pull off a decent one.

As long as your Ranger has a good FPS and half decent reflexes he should fit well into a GvG team.

Is there still a BA Ganker havent played in a while.

Splitisoda

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

STALKER!

Not in One

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Yes, I just fought a mesmer who dodged EVERY single one of my arrows and im not even using a longbow. I dont care ifi ts good micro to hell with that. She casts a spell and moves a few inches and then i see *dodge* bows REALLY need at least faster attack rate.

Wakka

Wakka

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Northern Ireland

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Quote:
Yes, I just fought a mesmer who dodged EVERY single one of my arrows and im not even using a longbow. I dont care ifi ts good micro to hell with that. She casts a spell and moves a few inches and then i see *dodge* bows REALLY need at least faster attack rate. The key is to time your shot until she/he stops to cast. If hes running around like that and is only stopping to cast spells then watch his movement, the milli-second you see him stop fire off a distracting/savage shot You should catch his spell if your fast enough.

iridescentfyre

iridescentfyre

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Yes, I just fought a mesmer who dodged EVERY single one of my arrows and im not even using a longbow. I dont care ifi ts good micro to hell with that. She casts a spell and moves a few inches and then i see *dodge* bows REALLY need at least faster attack rate. Ah, but what bow were you using? It needs to be a Recurve in PvP unless you're really trying to bombard something from long range with one or two shots.

jaeharys targaryen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Picnic Pioneers[asian characters]

E/Mo

Quote:
Also rangers are NOT used in high-end pvp, all the the other classes are.
Everyone who says they are are talking about minor exceptions or are lying.
Period.
you are an idiot

Quote:
Ummm... lol? Ever heard of RaO? unfortunately, so are you.

Solus Spartan

Solus Spartan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

Australia

[Lawl]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArKaiN
Yes, bows should have 9-41 basic damage and hit 3 people from range.
Me neither. Only 3, they need to damage 16 TARGETS! Then I'd finally use ignite arrows outside Pre Searing.

Joker

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

ESS

R/Mo

I must say that I spend all my time on my ranger, it is the one class that i actually enjoy and I am quite experienced with it. I think one of the main issues is that, without a shadow of a doubt rangers an generally underpowered comapired to other classes. Anyone that has played a ranger knows that they have a hard time getting into groups because most of the time, another class can do nearly everything a ranger can, and do it better.

Weather bows, marksmanship skills, or whatever gets a buff I think rangers need some work in general.

IMHO beast mastery needs some very serious attention.

This is all just my $.02

This is all solely based on my expirence in PvE. I am not making any claims, whatsoever about PvP.