Dhuum & Menzies

What do you guys think that happens to both Dhuum and Menzies?

Both are somehow related to the gods, and both helped abaddon by supplying him with troops, but will we ever see them ingame? Or will they somehow be related in EotN or GW2?

Dhumm's connection with the gods~ The God of Death before Grenth took over using force. Apparently Dhumm was unjust and cruel. There is no record of his current location.

Menzies' connection with the gods~ Menzies is Balthazar's brother (half if i recall correctly), Menzies being the evil cliche' esque counterpart. The fact that Balthazar is the 'Great Dwarf', makes Menzies the Great Destroyer, tied to the fact that the Great Destroyer is also the Great Dwarf's brother.

Menzies is set to make a return in GW:EoTN, and his return is the catalyst for the earthquakes that are to shake Tyria (world specified, not continent) in the upcoming months.

Nothing has been mentioned as of yet about Dhumm however it is speculated that since EoTN is designed specifically for max level characters, both demi-gods will be faced in the 'grand finale', after which a new race is created, thus crating a definitive tie between Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2.

On a slight tangent - How is the Guild Wars Menzies' name pronounced? UK forumites may know that the name Menzies is sometimes pronounced 'Mingus', as in the Liberal Democrat MP Ming Campbell. So which is it?! Is it ever spoken in any cutscenes for instance?

It's pronounced "Men-Zees" basically.

Zeez actually. But yea. The Balthazar--->Great Dwarf isn't 100% assured yet, but it makes sense. Dhuum won't appear again till GW2 in my opinion, but no real facts support that.

Its best to not assume that Menzies = Great Destroyer. Not long ago someone here argued that Abaddon was the Great Destroyer...and i recall the theorys before Nightfall we had...."a fallen god" was instantly called Dhumm.

The Great Destroyer could be an entirely different Entity (Menzies has the Shadow Army but where do the Destroyers fit in?)

Maybe the Great Dwarf was once a great dwarf who wanted to become a god. Maybe he's like the opposite of Dhuum and Menzies who got replaced?

Balthazar is not The Great Dwarf. Please keep in mind that there is a statue of the Great Dwarf in the one keep..god it's been so long since i've played Guildwars, it's where the Trolls are...sad.

Anyways! There is a statue of him in there, and plus, why would there be just one god for all beings? There are other races, and likely those races will ahve gods of their own (Course, they could be the same enity disgusing them selves as such, but, in this case, I'm doubting)

the Great Dwarf is Gwens dad Greg, its so obvious you nubcakes.

lol, jk, but really, i was lost when basically everything most of us thought NF was going to be about, ended up being a huge pile of steaming crap.

I find it that your probably right about Dhuum; but it seemed that at the end of nightfall that these back seated deities were about to stuffed in a corner and taken down. I noticed that Mallyx took over the renegades instead of the others though. Dhumm and Menzies minions also never really enjoyed taking orders from Aboddons minions. Referenced dialog from “Gate of Pain" mission.

Yes that’s a possibility for the fact that Menzies does have that shadow army. Furthermore the true name of the Great Destroyer was hidden in the Tome of Rubicon (and the Great Dwarf) so it could never be spoken. However it never said that speaking the name would release the Great Destroyer upon the world, but it would take some sort of ritual to make it happen. Also I think someone or something recovers the Tome of Rubicon from Sorrows Furnace again; after it was buried.

I would like to quote this from the official Guild Wars wiki also:

Interesting theory, but I think there would be more to it. Like he was The Great Creator who over stepped his boundaries by creating something evil; in which turn The Great Dwarf smote him and took his power. It seems a bit far fetched but plausible.

I need to see this statue. I don’t doubt you, but my journeys never led me too it, and I have never seen it on both GW wiki sites.

Well according to most of the scriptures there is only 5 true gods that are worshiped throughout Tyria; all others are technically heretics to carry the name of a “God.” Even Mhenlo has stated that these supposed “Gods” reclaim in their religious reason is ridiculous. Not stating that Mhenlo opinion totally creditable, sometimes he only knows half of the story.

Here was something interesting I was thinking. I notice the Apostate stated that Abaddon had a predecessor that he supplanted himself, and took the power as his own. Specifically the Apostate says, “There were other gods before him, before he was imprisoned here,” which we know is true of course because of entities like Dhuum. So where did Abaddon, Dhuum, and even Menzies learn their terrible power? For they seem to be focus around the power destruction; however they want to use there power to rule over Tyira in some dark way (not to destroy it).

There are no known statues of the Great Dwarf.
I have explored everywere in Tyria and there is nothing there. But i think you could of confused it with something - King Droknars statue.

Also the Dwarves say the Great Dwarfs forge was Anvil Rock yet we know Balthazar in fact lived in Arah.

And Mhenlo himself believes their worship of the Great Dwarf to be foolish.

So although we cant rule out Balthazar and Menzies being the Great Dwarf and Great Destroyer they could be something entirly different just like Abaddon when we all thought it was Dhuum

seams this will leave gw with some loose ends if so, but then agin they have
gw 2 to get it all fixed.

Dhuum left GW for WoW after Grenth took over.


He is my warlock.

Well the people of Tyria worshipping the 5 gods isn't down the religious reasons as on earth. The 5 True Gods 100% definatly exist and so there is no choice but to worship them. I presume the Deldrimor Dwarfs also have conclusive proof that the Great Dwarf does exist otherwise they would worship the 5 real gods.

Here is a quote from King Jalis Ironhammer during the Thunderhead Keep Mission.

"Deldrimor declares war! Beware Stone Summit! Jalis Ironhammer stands in Thunderhead Keep once more! The Mantle followed you! Stand fast friends! This will be our finest hour! Be on your guard. The left hand of Grenth himself comes for us."

His mention of Grenth could be taken as him (and possibly all dwarves) believe in the five Gods, or could be taken like atheists saying "Oh my God!"

Another clue might be in the naming of Grenth's Footprint. It is obviously deep within dwarven territory. Of course, Wittman's Folly and Tasca's Demise also suggests that the naming convention for our maps might be from a human perspective.

At least it proves that they are aware of the five Gods. I would consider that if any single dwarf mentions the name Balthazar at any point, it would mean that they recognise the difference between Balthazar and the Great Dwarf.

At the back of my head, I can almost imagine a dwarf exclaiming, "By Balthazar's Beard!" Oh well, still looking.

High Priest Alkar said this during the Unspeakable, Unknowable quest in Sorrow's Furnace.

"We must bury the Great Destroyer's true name. The best way to do that is to consecrate the old temple and bring it down atop the Tome. Some of you should stay behind, just in case. Balthazate crystals are highly explosive. If you find enough of them, I can destroy the Temple. They're mined by an unruly lot known as the Dredge Blastrock. Kill them and collect the Balthazate they drop. This ritual will likely attract us some unwanted attention, so at least one of you should stay here with me. I won't be safe here all on my own, and if they kill me, they will get the Tome. When you find a crystal, bring it back immediately and drop it here."

This is an indirect reference to Balthazar. High Priest Alkar also mentioned both the Great Dwarf and the Great Destroyor in previous speech.

The Balthazate crystals are unique items, only found in the Shiverspeak. It is unlikely that it is universal enough to have adopted a human-given name as a kind of international standard.

I take this as evidence that the dwarves, even if they do not worship the five gods, at least are familiar with them. I also feel this proves that Balthazar is not the Great Dwarf, because otherwise, the name Balthazar would not be part of dwarven lexicon.

Has any of you the final book of Priestess of the white by Trudi Canavan?

In that there are two sects worshiping different gods but it is revealed at the end that the gods where actually the same just taking different identities. The great Dwarf and Balthazar could be one and the same but the dwarfs don't know it. I'm guessing Balthazar has a human form when he appears to humans so who's to say he didn't appear to the Dwarfs in dwarven form and they called him the Great Dwarf. He knows if he revealed himself now it would cause great upheaval to dwarven society.

It still could be the Great Dwarf is Balthazar. Again the Dwarves could of just given him a name to their liking.

And if the Great Dwarf was to be Balthazar it would make sense that the Great Destroyer would be Menzies.But it is still possible that they are something entirly different (Much like how the Luxons worship 3 demigods aswell as the 5 true gods)

If Menzies is not the Great Destroyer he will obviously play a part in Guild Wars 2. I would go ahead and say that if Menzies was the Great Destroyer and we....erm destroyed him then the events in the Fissure of Woe would stop since Menzies is the one who controls the Shadow Army.

Is it truly possible to destroy a god, even a minor one like Menzies. Abbadon was absorbed rather than destroyed. By destroying Menzies does another god have to be born?

We dont know if Menzies is a fully fledged God like Abbadon was. All we know is hes the half brother of Balthazar and hes so far attempted to take over the Fissure of Woe, and help Abaddon further his Nightfall sceme.

And i do believe that destroying a God does mean a new one must be born. In some cases (Kormirs case) the person may of just wanted to destroy the God to save their world and sacreficed their mortality to become the next God. In others (Possibly Grenth and Abaddons case) they just wanted the power of the God who they destroyed. Though we will probably never know if that was the case with Grenth seeing how Dhuum was an Unjust God in the first place.

i believe that abaddon is based on the demon in the books of revelations. i think that abaddon can be the great destroyer. i read on a website that another name for abaddon is "the destroyer". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon_%28demon%29

if this is true, saying abaddon's name is somehow releasing abaddon in ur mind. we learn that in NF any contact with abaddon can doom ur spirit and that might be why they locked the great destoryer's name away. this might have some connection with the Apocrypha and its words and the destruction of Orr. I havent checked my dates so i am most likly wrong but that is just my theory

Now explain how Abaddon revives himself.............and then one year later begins a full assault of Tyria again.

Abaddon is not the Great Destroyer.


The other thing is....if the whole speak the name and hes unleashed thing is true or simply dwarven superstition. If the Great Destroyer was to be Menzies......the world should of ended about 5 times already due to Forgotton and Eternal speaking his name (Probably ourselves aswell)

i am confused... you guys talk of five gods but in nightfall we are supposed to kil the God of Secrets or God of Truth which later Kormir takes its place...

since i have started and ran through nightfall i am convinced there are six gods although only five are majorly acknowledged... Master of Whispers and his prol, from what i recall, are devoted to the God of Truth...

this was my doubt...

as for the Great Dwarf and Destroyer... imagine God and Devil although people believe in this dicotomy there is also Zeus and his prol, Jupiter and his prol(although Jupiter=Zeus)...

so im guessing we have so far known the GW version of greek and roman mythology and we are now encountering the GW version of Christianism... (sorry if i mispelled something or if im mixing names)...

i think this makes sense... cheers

In a lot of different fantasy settings, there are well known gods that have in fact supplanted other gods (Grenth, Abaddon) It is entirely possible that the other major gods have supplanted other gods as well, but it happened so long ago there is no longer any record. The Dwarf Gods may just be older or less well known gods. And I'm sure the dwarfs at least believe that the human gods exist. Its hard to deny their existance when the land is covered with statues and aspects that transport you to the realms of the gods.

I doubt Menzies is the destroyer just because it would be a somewhat anticlimactic ending to Guild Wars.

I have heard the Dwarves mention Grenth and Dwayna a few times so i doubt they deny their existance.

Great Dwarf = Jalis Ironhammer's Father
Great Destroyer = Dagnar Stonepate's Father

Both are leaders of Dwarf sects, one good, one not so good. They are also cousins, which means their parents (fathers) were siblings (brothers).

that can't be the case, unless their fathers where Giants, check anvil rock out.

No Omniclasm, that's way too early.

Which was, afaik, Balthazar's Anvil. Which would be fit for a god. Wonder that makes the great dwarf so 'great'? Dwarves could simply look at Balthazar differently.

Its never said it was Balthazars Anvil. Only said to belong to the Great Dwarf in legend. Which brings us straight back to speculation on who the Great Dwarf is (Balthazar or a seperate Entity).

I got your "great DWARF" right here!

/II\
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X
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Seriously, though, I honestly hope it isn't quite the writer's block that balthazar = great dwarf would be. That would just be poopy.