just to add to my previous lengthy post there is a similar issue in WoW with people booting and whatnot namely because of the way guild ranks work. but even more so (and be thankful to all holy hell this cannot happen in GW) youll take your guild into a huuuge long drawn out raid with uber uber rewards. now in a trustful guild the raid or party leader will set loot to free-for-all (meaning anyone can pick up anything...usually used in tight knit guilds where people will reserve items for eachother cause they can actually use them). on the occasion someone will just randomly join a high ranking guild that raids often and become friends enough with them that theyll let this person into the raids. youll do the raid and once your finished with the very last area with the very best loot you now have what we call the ninja looter lol. he runs by, sets his loot button to auto so all he has to do is click the corpse and all the items appear in his inventory, and basically grabs everything. teleports out and leaves the guild.
probably one of the rudest things anyone can do namely for the fact that its because the guild doing the raiding were actually probably going to use these items but this person is just gonna sell them or disenchant them and sell the scraps. now it falls to a question of morality....who was wrong here. the person doing the looting was obviously wrong no matter the circumstances, but the guild leader and the party/raid leader may also be held accountable by everyone else in the raid because theyre the one who invited em into their tight knit group anyways.
so basically when it comes to GW.... the person who may just up and disband the entire guild cause hes a petty bastard is obviously wrong. there are instances where booting someone is very much so called for but when you just start kicking everyone thats just not right. the guild leader can be held responsible for the inconveneince to the other players...maybe cause they were in the process of GvG'ing or HA'ing or doing whatever, but one of the guild leaders responsibilities is of course recruiting, and it cant be helped that there are just some assholes in this game who want nothing more than to just screw with people for stupid petty reasons.
the moral of the story is....either dont promote people unless you know them very very well or promote everyone so no one can be kicked lol.
Interesting
assassin_of_ni
Rocky Raccoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
If we are going to ban people because they are cruel and spiteless...I want every PuGer banned!
 It's the Guild Leader's fault that he became an officer. |
TheRaven
Quote:
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Originally Posted by assassin_of_ni
the moral of the story is....either dont promote people unless you know them very very well or promote everyone so no one can be kicked lol.
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Ok, I'm curious. Are their any officers in high ranked PvP guilds reading this right now? I'm talking about any guilds that are serious about the game. It's more than just a hobby to you, it's serious business. You take your ranking seriously and work hard to earn your guild's place on the ladder or town control. If so, how does your guild handle this problem? Or do you even have the problem in the first place?
P.S. Remind me never to play WOW.
Tijger
Quote:
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Originally Posted by assassin_of_ni
the moral of the story is....either dont promote people unless you know them very very well or promote everyone so no one can be kicked lol. |
Oh, on topic, no ban is necessary, just form a new guild with the old members minus the jackass. Problem solved.
Gli
Ban. Any spiteful action solely aimed at inconveniencing other players should result in a permanent ban. Would do the game world's of good. I'm totally serious.
assassin_of_ni
ide imagine a guild that aims towards high rank or owning towns would be exponentially more tight knit about their officers than the casual kinda guild like my own.
OH WAIT random thought from the kicking cap comment. what about kick privelages? probably easier to implement than a kicking cap and it saves even the lil amount of frustration kicking 5 people in a day can cause. give the leader obviously unlimited kick power (since thats what part of being a guild leader is about) aaand be able to assign privelages to officers.
privelages include:
Ability to invite someone [on/off]
Ability to kick someone [on/off]
Ability to promote [on/off]
Ability to demote [on/off]
this would probably help keep some officers from thinking they can run the guild. also add an additional feature to silence someone in guild or alliance chat. when its not so bad to kick them but when theyre being beligerent ass monkies then its best to just tell em to shoosh lol.
OH WAIT random thought from the kicking cap comment. what about kick privelages? probably easier to implement than a kicking cap and it saves even the lil amount of frustration kicking 5 people in a day can cause. give the leader obviously unlimited kick power (since thats what part of being a guild leader is about) aaand be able to assign privelages to officers.
privelages include:
Ability to invite someone [on/off]
Ability to kick someone [on/off]
Ability to promote [on/off]
Ability to demote [on/off]
this would probably help keep some officers from thinking they can run the guild. also add an additional feature to silence someone in guild or alliance chat. when its not so bad to kick them but when theyre being beligerent ass monkies then its best to just tell em to shoosh lol.
Qual
I vote no, intern guild problem...
Rocky Raccoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Qual
I vote no, intern guild problem...
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assassin_of_ni
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger
Please Elaborate.
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Gli
By that philosophy, any dispute between players is an affair between those players and we might as well toss the rules of conduct.
Rocky Raccoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by assassin_of_ni
i think he means no to the OP that they shouldnt be banned and that it is an internal affair of the guild that is probably best dealt with by the guild. just my take on it.
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Diddy bow
no, the guild leader gave them the responceibilty and its the officers discression who they kick.
Rocky Raccoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Diddy bow
no, the guild leader gave them the responceibilty and its the officers discression who they kick.
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nbajammer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Diddy bow
no, the guild leader gave them the responceibilty and its the officers discression who they kick.
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nbajammer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger
People keep saying it should be handled within the guild, please tell me how when the person quit as soon as the act was done.
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Nonetheless, such a thing can't be handled within the guild people. We cannot control the behaviors of those who would deceive us. That is why it cannot be the fault of the leader because they don't have a reason to doubt that what they are being told is true. I don't remember who suggested it, but the improvements stated before would clearly help other guilds who have had to go through what we did.
Diddy bow
Accually my old guild sufferd the same thing sadley 
.The possition of officer is clearly nothing to be handed out at will. That may not be the case with your guild but you cant argue the guild leader promoted the wrong person. Better promotions will surpas banning people imo.
.The possition of officer is clearly nothing to be handed out at will. That may not be the case with your guild but you cant argue the guild leader promoted the wrong person. Better promotions will surpas banning people imo.
David Lionmaster
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
I vote ban, 99% of the time there is no good reason for this, the person who did it wants to be a pain in the arse. Well, maybe im just biased cause this happened to one of the guilds im in x.x/
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nbajammer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Diddy bow
Accually my old guild sufferd the same thing sadley
.The possition of officer is clearly nothing to be handed out at will. That may not be the case with your guild but you cant argue the guild leader promoted the wrong person. Better promotions will surpas banning people imo. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by David Lionmaster
But they did nothing that would qualify as a banable offense. They were just being an ass.
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lacasner
Quote:
| But they did nothing that would qualify as a banable offense. They were just being an ass. |
assassin_of_ni
before i made it a 60 or 90 day wait perdiod for a promotion and even then if i didnt think the person was really deserving of a promotion they still wouldnt get one. and in the same cause i may promote someone earlier if they show true dedication. typically if a person is trying to sabotage a guild theyre not gonna wait 2-3 months to do it nor are they gonna go so far as to meet my criteria of an early promotion....theyll more than likely just leave.
Series
2 solutions:
A) Only promote people you KNOW are trustworthy to officer.
B) Promote every single person to officer. Bam, not a single person can be kicked by anyone but the leader.
Not that difficult.
A) Only promote people you KNOW are trustworthy to officer.
B) Promote every single person to officer. Bam, not a single person can be kicked by anyone but the leader.
Not that difficult.
nbajammer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by assassin_of_ni
typically if a person is trying to sabotage a guild theyre not gonna wait 2-3 months to do it nor are they gonna go so far as to meet my criteria of an early promotion....theyll more than likely just leave.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Series
2 solutions:
A) Only promote people you KNOW are trustworthy to officer. B) Promote every single person to officer. Bam, not a single person can be kicked by anyone but the leader. Not that difficult. |
B) That defeats the purpose of even having officers.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nbajammer
B) That defeats the purpose of even having officers.
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lacasner
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
And that purpose is? Honestly, I've never understood the point.
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Guild leaders have a life too, try running a guild with no officers its not easy.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lacasner
Guild leaders have a life too, try running a guild with no officers its not easy.
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Maximumraver
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I'd say that issues like this are player issues that should be handled by players.
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lennymon
So you'd ban yourself and your own guild leader for inviting and/or promoting the officer who kicked everyone right? Since the guild leader is ultimately responsible, and you share that responsibility by being in a guild where that kind of thing could even begin to happen.
If ANYof your guild leaders promotes someone who does this:
1. Immature brat gets a guild invite.
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Leader wisely promotes him.
Brat kicks all members and laughs.
You should (in order) 1: Find a new (as in different) guild. 2: inform your now ex-guild leader that they're an idiot not only for inviting brat, but after demand #1 they should've been kicked out. 3: Kick yourself for joining a guild where that could happen. and 4: Make sure the new guild's leader understands that you feel somewhat strongly about their use of wisdom in choosing officers, and that you really don't mind looking for a new guild now if it might be a problem. 5: Perhaps even suggest a code of conduct or a guild bill of rights....
When you get right down to it, if YOU choose to join a guild which will promote 'brat' then YOU are almost as guilty as 'brat' for allowing the whole unfortunate series of events to happen. You've supported it by being in a guild without decent leadership or a code for choosing its officers. These codes are important, ask for them by name!
If ANYof your guild leaders promotes someone who does this:
1. Immature brat gets a guild invite.
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!"
Leader wisely promotes him.
Brat kicks all members and laughs.
You should (in order) 1: Find a new (as in different) guild. 2: inform your now ex-guild leader that they're an idiot not only for inviting brat, but after demand #1 they should've been kicked out. 3: Kick yourself for joining a guild where that could happen. and 4: Make sure the new guild's leader understands that you feel somewhat strongly about their use of wisdom in choosing officers, and that you really don't mind looking for a new guild now if it might be a problem. 5: Perhaps even suggest a code of conduct or a guild bill of rights....
When you get right down to it, if YOU choose to join a guild which will promote 'brat' then YOU are almost as guilty as 'brat' for allowing the whole unfortunate series of events to happen. You've supported it by being in a guild without decent leadership or a code for choosing its officers. These codes are important, ask for them by name!
nbajammer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
It's called the rest of the guild. Why would you invite anyone into a guild that couldn't help the guild. That's what I don't get. Just make everyone an officer. I don't understand there being a difference.
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Guild Leader Guild Leader Guild Leader
10 Officers 99 Officers No Officers
89 Members No Members 99 Members
The first one is the sort of guild mine is. The second one is what you propose, and the third is the one without officers. Notice there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the last 2. Sure if everyone was an officer thered be no kicking problem - but you are still left with a situation where the guild leader can have a life, and no one left to run the guild. But that's what an officer was for, I thought someone said?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lennymon
So you'd ban yourself and your own guild leader for inviting and/or promoting the officer who kicked everyone right? Since the guild leader is ultimately responsible, and you share that responsibility by being in a guild where that kind of thing could even begin to happen.
If ANYof your guild leaders promotes someone who does this: 1. Immature brat gets a guild invite. Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!" Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!" Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!" Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!" Brat: "make me an officer NOW!!!!!" Leader wisely promotes him. Brat kicks all members and laughs. You should (in order) 1: Find a new (as in different) guild. 2: inform your now ex-guild leader that they're an idiot not only for inviting brat, but after demand #1 they should've been kicked out. 3: Kick yourself for joining a guild where that could happen. and 4: Make sure the new guild's leader understands that you feel somewhat strongly about their use of wisdom in choosing officers, and that you really don't mind looking for a new guild now if it might be a problem. 5: Perhaps even suggest a code of conduct or a guild bill of rights.... When you get right down to it, if YOU choose to join a guild which will promote 'brat' then YOU are almost as guilty as 'brat' for allowing the whole unfortunate series of events to happen. You've supported it by being in a guild without decent leadership or a code for choosing its officers. These codes are important, ask for them by name! |
Next the issue is not that of a 'brat' whining til he gets promoted then kicking everyone, but rather a malicious person hiding behind the facade of a trustworthy person to gain the position - completely different than what you are talking about.
Finally that's your opinion, to which you are entitled, however you dont have the right to tell us, the players, what we should or should not do in situations such as these. Please re-read the thread to understand the issue at stake here, as it is clear you don't understand it.
Miral
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nbajammer
Re-read Rules of Conduct #1. This would fall under more than one condition, and can also be defined as griefing. Depending on the situation, Anet can easily choose to ban the offender. Whether they do or not, however, is up to Anet themselves. Being an ass still violates RoC #1 when it meets the criteria listed.
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arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nbajammer
Making everyone an officer doesn't do anything for the cause. Observe:
Guild Leader Guild Leader Guild Leader 10 Officers 99 Officers No Officers 89 Members No Members 99 Members The first one is the sort of guild mine is. The second one is what you propose, and the third is the one without officers. Notice there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the last 2. Sure if everyone was an officer thered be no kicking problem - but you are still left with a situation where the guild leader can have a life, and no one left to run the guild. But that's what an officer was for, I thought someone said? |
Making everyone an officer makes the guild more democratic. Instead of a board of "leet" officers & leader deciding who should be kicked or added, the whole guild is responsible, and should pass along votes to their leader. It seems to me that the only people who support a handful of officers are ones that respect that position, and the fluff entitled to it, rather then the guild itself.
Of course, this is all my opinion, and how I see things. I don't look down on anyone that chooses to operate their guild however they see fit. In fact, I encourage it and love the fact that there are options. Honestly, it would be nice if there were more options. Perhaps instead of a couple of ranks (saying an officer is "higher ranked" than a member, for instance), there could be specific titles, none more important than the other, for more equality in the guild.
For instance, there could be a rank of guildie that can only recruit/ban members, and a different rank that can only purchase things for the guild and manage a guild bank of sorts. Stuff like that.
nbajammer
What is it with people not fully reading the preceding posts?
I said "when it meets the criteria". In other words, the provisions listed in the Rules of Conduct.
Guild leaders are entitled to have a life as much as anyone else. To suggest that a leader should dedicate themselves fully to the game 100%, and to everything else 0%, is completely foolish. In the second scenario only the leader can kick, sure, but what happens if the guild isn't full? What if the guild has 1 leader and 54 officers, with a total membership of 55? That is the whole point of the excercise. I have been in guilds where everyone was an officer and they flat out did not work.
Guilds are democratic only if the guild leader designs them in that fashion. Not every guild is democratic, nor should they be. They were formed by the leader to serve a purpose set forth by the leader.
That said, none of this means anyone should freely be able to join a guild and disrupt its membership - under any circumstances whatsoever. Your last paragraph seems to coincide with what I believe the OP to be seeking - ways to better control guild ranks such that the risk of abuse is kept to the utmost minimum, if not eliminated. Something needs to change here if this sort of behavior is occurring as often as some posters have suggested.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miral
o.O if being an ass was a bannable offense, 90% of PvP players and 75% of PvE players would be banned o.O
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
What is left for the guild leader to do in the second scenario? Kick people? Buy a new guild hall? Anything else? If that's too much for a leader to handle, even with this so-called "life" you speak of, perhaps they shouldn't be leader.
Making everyone an officer makes the guild more democratic. Instead of a board of "leet" officers & leader deciding who should be kicked or added, the whole guild is responsible, and should pass along votes to their leader. It seems to me that the only people who support a handful of officers are ones that respect that position, and the fluff entitled to it, rather then the guild itself. Of course, this is all my opinion, and how I see things. I don't look down on anyone that chooses to operate their guild however they see fit. In fact, I encourage it and love the fact that there are options. Honestly, it would be nice if there were more options. Perhaps instead of a couple of ranks (saying an officer is "higher ranked" than a member, for instance), there could be specific titles, none more important than the other, for more equality in the guild. For instance, there could be a rank of guildie that can only recruit/ban members, and a different rank that can only purchase things for the guild and manage a guild bank of sorts. Stuff like that. |
Guilds are democratic only if the guild leader designs them in that fashion. Not every guild is democratic, nor should they be. They were formed by the leader to serve a purpose set forth by the leader.
That said, none of this means anyone should freely be able to join a guild and disrupt its membership - under any circumstances whatsoever. Your last paragraph seems to coincide with what I believe the OP to be seeking - ways to better control guild ranks such that the risk of abuse is kept to the utmost minimum, if not eliminated. Something needs to change here if this sort of behavior is occurring as often as some posters have suggested.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nbajammer
That said, none of this means anyone should freely be able to join a guild and disrupt its membership - under any circumstances whatsoever. Your last paragraph seems to coincide with what I believe the OP to be seeking - ways to better control guild ranks such that the risk of abuse is kept to the utmost minimum, if not eliminated. Something needs to change here if this sort of behavior is occurring as often as some posters have suggested.
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Also, I have no problem with the Guild Leader "having a life" at all. I just expect a guild with a substantial amount of members to have a leader that is at least somewhat committed to the game and their guild. This does not mean on 24/7, or even every day for a few hours, but at the very least once a week to check up on things when they're a little burnt out. That's honestly all I'd expect from a leader, everything else earns brownie points.
Onarik Amrak
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miral
o.O if being an ass was a bannable offense, 90% of PvP players and 75% of PvE players would be banned o.O
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Nevar Deathbringer
It seems that maybe the officers should only be allowed to ban a member from use of the guild facilities and only the guild leader have the power to "kick" another player from the guild. That way there would have to be some discussion with the leader as well as the officer and the individual to be "kicked" as for the reason for being kicked. Does that make sense? Just a random thought.
Miral
"While playing Guild Wars, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players."
thats the rule #1 you're talking about, ya?
well then what I said stands... 90% of PvPers and 75% of PvEers violate this at one point or another. hell the way the rules are written just saying hi to someone in local chat could be a violation if they chose to report it.
anywho, the point being, while purging members from a guild is a mean thing to do, it is no more a violation of the rules than what 90% of the players say or do on a daily basis without action taken against them...
thats the rule #1 you're talking about, ya?
well then what I said stands... 90% of PvPers and 75% of PvEers violate this at one point or another. hell the way the rules are written just saying hi to someone in local chat could be a violation if they chose to report it.
anywho, the point being, while purging members from a guild is a mean thing to do, it is no more a violation of the rules than what 90% of the players say or do on a daily basis without action taken against them...
VanDamselx
I've actually had this happen in a guild where we supposed everything was fine and dandy.
So we all started out in separate guilds and decided to merge together in an old guild some of us were in. About 4-5 of us were designated as officers and we got the guild up and running to about a reasonable size. Unfortunately, there were two officers that decided what our guild was about and it started to become a very unhappy place. Thinking that these guys were our friends, we decided to confront them that we all love playing with them, but sometimes we get bored or just want to do something else (all they cared to do was HA). Well, they took it as an insult and just started kicking everyone in the guild, invited them to their new guild and essentially ruined it. It was too late before we could take any action and trust me, it destroyed game play for a while. It really is a heinous act and A-Net should implement something where all kicks have to be approved by the leader or something because that definitely would have never happened had our guild leader been able to step in. I think it's something that should be punishable. You lose a lot of valuable time over it.
So we all started out in separate guilds and decided to merge together in an old guild some of us were in. About 4-5 of us were designated as officers and we got the guild up and running to about a reasonable size. Unfortunately, there were two officers that decided what our guild was about and it started to become a very unhappy place. Thinking that these guys were our friends, we decided to confront them that we all love playing with them, but sometimes we get bored or just want to do something else (all they cared to do was HA). Well, they took it as an insult and just started kicking everyone in the guild, invited them to their new guild and essentially ruined it. It was too late before we could take any action and trust me, it destroyed game play for a while. It really is a heinous act and A-Net should implement something where all kicks have to be approved by the leader or something because that definitely would have never happened had our guild leader been able to step in. I think it's something that should be punishable. You lose a lot of valuable time over it.
Gli
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miral
anywho, the point being, while purging members from a guild is a mean thing to do, it is no more a violation of the rules than what 90% of the players say or do on a daily basis without action taken against them...
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Miral
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gli
I don't want to get into an argument about it, but that has to be one of the most nonsensical statements I've ever read on these forums.
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Gli
Rules of conduct are supposed to carry a bit of fuzzyness that's handled at the discretion of the people responsible for enforcing them. If they'd be completely unequivocal and set into stone, there'd be no way to act against people finding loopholes. The rules (explicitly) state you can't cause distress to other players, and that's all they need to say. It's up to the powers that be to decide when and where distress has been caused of sufficient magnitude to warrant action. Maliciously breaking up an 80 person guild has to rank pretty high I'd expect.
Xenex Xclame
Why are you so against the idea of making everyone officers ?
How does that prevent the Leader from having a life?
Like miral said the way the rules are written, saying hello to someone can be enough for a ban.
I agree with some here saying that it's something that should be handled by the guild.
It is the guild leaders responsibility no matter what, by promoting him he passes down his powers to be used as the player promoted seems fit,otherwise they should not be promoted.
If the leader can not handle whatever decision the officer makes , then the leader should NOT promote the person(s)
You said it yourself , its up to the Anet to decide if anything should be done and they seem to agree with us, that this is something that should be handled by the guild not by them, with this post you are trying to decide how they should act.
How does that prevent the Leader from having a life?
Like miral said the way the rules are written, saying hello to someone can be enough for a ban.
I agree with some here saying that it's something that should be handled by the guild.
It is the guild leaders responsibility no matter what, by promoting him he passes down his powers to be used as the player promoted seems fit,otherwise they should not be promoted.
If the leader can not handle whatever decision the officer makes , then the leader should NOT promote the person(s)
You said it yourself , its up to the Anet to decide if anything should be done and they seem to agree with us, that this is something that should be handled by the guild not by them, with this post you are trying to decide how they should act.