The Price of Failure...

In checking the /age of my account I have played 4056 hrs over the past 23 months. Since the average job has approx. 2002 hrs per year, I'd say I'm pretty much a professional GW player (lol). BTW, I strictly play PvE.

I began playing the game before Anet's attempts to improve the economy through anti-farming codes, changing monster AI, etc. To me, those were the fun days, where the game had a flow. As you moved through the game you acquired what was needed to progress. If you were in an area at the appropriate level, any well balanced party could take on huge mobs of monsters by careful aggro.

As would be expected, it wasn't long before fan sites such as this one, became a haven for the hardcore player. To me, the hardcore player is one that will play the same thing over and over and over until they have figured out every nuance of how to beat the quest, mission, area, etc. Information on these sites began to extend well beyond "guides" and developed into step-by-step instructions on how to do practically anything in-game. Naturally, anything exploitable in the game was quickly shared and jumped upon by that class of players wanting a "leg up" over everybody else.

This started Anet upon a course of attempting to plug up the holes in the game. Unfortunately, what Anet didn't realize, and still hasn't, is that the hardcore player will ALWAYS find some way have substantial avantages over the majority of other players. Interestingly enough, I believe that most of the outcry about bots and gold purchased for real money came from those that exploited the game the most. However, even while all this was going on, the game play changed very little for the majority of players.

The advent of Nightfall really changed the tenor of the entire game for me. In my opinion, that's when Anet gave in to the hardcore players. From that point on, the game lost it's finesse. The ability to separate mobs became a thing of the past. It was no longer a matter of having a balanced party, but the necessity of using specifically scripted professions and builds following step-by-step instructions provided by fan sites.

I feel that's why there is always such a huge difference of opinion whenever someone posts a thead in the forums about game play in general ( i.e. loot-scaling, the bots, AI, etc.) The biggest example of this is in the area of amassing gold. Anyone starting a thread or creating a post about having difficulty in obtaining gold (or loot) seems destined to be flamed by those that have no problem in getting gold (or loot). The fact of the matter is not the gold (or loot) itself, BUT THE MANNER IN WHICH IT IS OBTAINED.

It's true enough that ANYONE wanting to follow the step-by-step instructions found in the farming (or other) sections of fan sites can get any amount of gold, greens, items, etc. they want. However, to many (including myself), by doing so they might as well be a bot following programed instructions. I believe that the vast majority of players would rather have the ability to use careful aggro with a variety of professions/skills in a party they develop themselves to play and advance through the game.

The Price of Failure of Anet's attempts control bots, exploiters, and hardcore players is that they have removed the "fun" factor for everyone else. Anet's own dev's admitted that the anti-farm code they implemented made the game "less-friendly". It only makes sense that anything a "casual" player can do to obtain something will be misused by some. However, it makes no sense at all make most everything worthwhile unobtainable by the "casual" player because of other's misuse. This will only make the game unplayable for most while having little or no effect on those who will take advantage of anything Anet does to stop bots, exploiters, etc. Personally, I could care less about bots, purchased gold, or what other players have obtained.

My advice to Anet? Stop worrying so much about the small minority of players that you feel obligated to control and concentrate on the vast majority of players who just want to play the game for FUN.

NOTE: This is my personal opinion. If you don't agree, I really don't care.

Exactly why you shouldn't have posted this.

Last time I checked this was a forum for discussion.

I agree, I have 9 Chars, 1 Monk with Fow Armor, People Know Me Title (need one more for I'm very important) and over 10 million exp, a necro with 2 million exp nearly enough for his fow, a warrior with 2 million and kind of a big deal title and a dervish, ele and ranger all with multiple sets of 15k and the ele has vabbian,... needless to say I've played ALOT of pve.. on average 10-11 hours per day during prophecies,, about 8-9 hours per day during factions, then back to 10-11 during the start of nightfall,.,, but SINCE then the daily ammount dropped rapidly,., the prospect of making money, buying some new stuff or just ammassing a fortune and playing the buying/selling game has all gone for me now.. I can't farm a few K quickly and if I do its luck and boring at that.... the game I played no longer exists, and instead now I have been inactive for nearly a week, played two days last week and had a quick go last night,, but nothing interests me,, I opened all my unlocked chests and made around 33k and got 15 useless gold items which ALL went to the merchant taking my total to 36,,, now that would have been great back in the day., but now as that is my ONLY option of making cash,, and the fact I would like fow armor for necro.. it puts me in a predicament. I've finished all chapters with my necro, so that isnt an option, farming is tedious nowadays and even if I DO find a rare item while playing the game normally.. all rune and weapon and mod prices have dropped to a rediculous all time low while the chances of finding them are ALSO at an all time low....

so the round up is:
Farming if possible is tedious and nerfed to death
Playing in party brings no rewards as skins are still very rare but very cheap and very hard to sell at all
Cash rewards are not enough
and the *open ended* feel of the game is gone,, now its complete it, complete hard mode, blah blah,, basically do whatever WE ANET suggest you do.... and nothing else.. or you're named, shamed, nerfed and banned...

and I'm 27 year old I've thought long and hard about this over the past few weeks and I really feel there is nolonger any fun to be had from this game...
it all started with the AOE nerf..

Oh man it has been a long time since I've had someone like you. I got so excited reading your post that I knocked my mic off of my desk!

You aren't professional until you get paid for it--you're just addicted.

Yeah okay good so far

People wanting to learn how to do something without having to spend the time failing at it twenty times by themselves? Why I never

I'm just going to completely call you out on how completely wrong you are here. Careful pulling is still pretty much paramount for a vast, vast majority of PvE. Team makeup doesn't really matter, either--even in Hard Mode you can run whatever the hell you like and still vanquish pretty much anything, so long as you don't suck at the game.

Some people are managing to get along just fine. Why can't everyone, really?

No one has any advantage over anyone else, save for free time, thanks to the nature of the game.

As you say, anyone can. I fail to see the problem here.

You still can??? I evidently missed the update where they said "every party must now consist of one warrior, five eles, and two monks. We deleted Mesmers entirely because lol"

Different people have different standards and definitions of fun: more at eleven.


A casual player can still get anything they want, though. Prices on absolutely everything have been dropping like a rock--hell, even Obsidian armor would probably be reasonable for a casual player these days.

Once again, some people have a hell of a lot of fun squeezing every little last bit of efficiency out of their farming build. What makes your style so much better?

I respect your right to your opinion, but I sure as hell don't respect you or your opinion.

Interesting thing about flamers

They spend a lot of time trying to convince people that they should be having fun when they are not.

The OP is not having fun. He lists his reasons. He has experience to back it up. Frankly, a lot of people on these boards have posted similar opinions.

Therefore I respect his opinion - because he has the knowledge to back it up.

If ANet had its own boards people would not have to post negative opinions here - but since they don't, this is where people have to go to let ANet know when they are unhappy - or perhaps thinking of quitting the game.

Therefore I respect his opinion and his post - because he is following the suggestions made by ANet about how to get them to listen to him.

He doesn't care what you think -

Therefore I respect His opinion - because what flamers think is generally useless to read and wasted space.

U mind telling me how ppl afford those ? Or the 15k at this state? It seams i have missed some kind of world-wide buisness secret, everybody apart from me know :P. The little money i made before hm is running out.

Kakumei, way to take all of the OP's opinions and then mock them by stating YOUR opinions as fact... the OP simply stated the way he FEELS, I also feel this way as do many many others, I'd rather lootscaling disapeared alltogether as a cash rich enviroment with overpriced weapons to farm and save for after you've completed all the missions etc is ALOT more fun than this.. and for me its nothin.. I've done all missions and quests . have all the titles I want/can get, every char I wanted to complete the chapters has done so... so with out farming and a healthy cash system there is nothing for me to do.. and players like me are the ones who have stuck by the game through thick and thin,, and for what?

[QUOTE]QUOTE]

i have multiple accounts and still less than 2000 hours so i guess that make me both loyal and casual.

the hard core farming crowd seems to have missed the fact that they are a very tiny fragment of total GW players and dont have enough numbers to have an effect on the GW bottm line.

the *CASUAL* player is the target buyer as shown by every change made so far to make things easier/cheaper to get in spite of every bitchfest the hard core farmers raise.

the vast majority of players do not consider 15 K armor as a get fast starting point for example.

also in case you missed it each *campaign* has a start, a main story , and an ending

how many times have you seen the thread right here saying.........

*IVE BEATEN THE GAME AND I AM BORED SO WHAT DO I SO NOWWWW?*

and the answer is FARM or pvp.

you finished it so put it on the shelf until you want to play again
or read a book
play something else
take a break
OMG go outside
talk to a RL friend

if the game is not paying you enough and you still play it that is your personal problem

[QUOTE=Loviatar]so basically what you're saying is, a game which got me (as a noob who didnt even play onlin) hooked, got me to buy all the expansions, play for over two year, and had REAL lasting appeal. (I finished the chapters months and months and months ago, not just recently)

so when all thats wiped out in favor of another type of player we shouldnt make our voice heard? we should just sit and say 'yeah ok I really loved this game and was hoping to play it for a few year yet but there is literally not a thing I can think to do when I log on' I'm not an average kid screaming like the world is at an end, coz at the end of the day its still just a game, its just a bit dissapointing that all the things that kept me, and nearly everyone I know in game playing, are now gone...

And they replaced the unfriendly anti-farm code with a system that's worse. Loot-scaling.

I kind of agree with the general sentiment of the OP. Maybe not with all the fine points, but I am not going to nitpick every sentence. The game is getting less and less fun.

I agree with the opp with the exeption of what he said about aggroing (or pulling). I fail to see how it makes someone a good player if he is good in pulling. In fact, its a bad sign when you have to aggroo in every map to complete it. It lacks variation. Mind, I don't blame players for this, its the way the game is programmed.

Loviatar: If someone likes to continue a game because it has some potential to become a good game, if the right changes would be made... Of course he needs to post that opinion!

you could just do what ive seen many (even gaile) suggest... dont play the game all the time (seem to suggest rarely playing at all lol)... although an MMO without dedication is a joke, but so is what you now are left to dedicate yourself to in the game (if it was said thered be these kind of titles and such and the game would like this*cough*ECONOMY*cough* when the game 1st came out i wouldnt have bought it)... gogogadgetmindlessgrindtitles

I mock things that deserve it.

Hey, so did I, aren't forums wonderful?

But you still can farm. This is what I don't get--people act like the introduction of loot scaling changed the game forever, but truth be told, I haven't noticed a difference. At all. Whether I'm two-manning out wherever, or fully vanquishing a zone with a full team of eight, I'm getting exactly the same amounts of loot that I got before. Plus, the introduction of Elite Tomes was quite the boon--they're rather common and go for ~10k a pop. I have no shortage of money, and I certainly don't play too often.

Regarding your other point--if you're out of things to do, there's an easy solution: stop playing for a while. Come back in a month or so, see if things have changed to your liking, or maybe the time off will restore your zeal for the game. Absence and the heart growing fonder, and all that.

You should have know better, i mean, this game was designed to be extemelly casuall friendly: Stuf like that there was no uber stuff to farm mindlessly for for months and that you reach level cap in weeks-days ahould have been warning enough.

Welcome to company of people who loved having level playing field and grind giving no advantage in PvE ...

Guess who was target audience of those changes? It was supposed to keep players like you happy. Be happy, you have those to grind for for years.

I've had breaks from Guild Wars before for different reasons. I find it's generally the latter of the results to be true.

I agree, at least about the killing the fun and increasing build dependence and grind.

Fun is, of course, subjective, but there's no more build dependence than there ever was. When you can do eight Mesmers vs. the City of Torc'qua and win, you know there's not much build dependence at all.

As far as PvE goes, you can bring whatever you want. It's not your skillbar that defines how good you are, it's a mixture of your tactics, your team's tactics, and--in some cases--familiarity with the task at hand.

Sure this was supossed 2 be a casual game, with as little grind as possble but titels and loot scaling, has changed this game from Guildwars 2 Grindwars. If this keeps going like this i might aswell go grinding the endless lvl's of WoW. 2 Be honest grinding sux, farming pre lootscaling made it possible for the casual gamer, to get he's little aument of *Bling Bling* without having 2 grind for several weeks. *thumbs Down for Lootscaling*

First of all 2 is not the same as or even a substitute for to. Secondly, sux isn't even a word. Thirdly I'm getting tired of all the damn anti-loot scaling threads that keep popping up every other day and trying to get it through your thick heads so whatever.

Edit: Oh I almost forgot if you think the grind in guild wars is bad then you probably shouldn't even be playing games.

[/QUOTE=Kakumei]When you can do eight Mesmers vs. the City of Torc'qua and win, you know there's not much build dependence at all./QUOTE]

All of your previous posts in this thread are moot. It all ended when you implied that you could find 8 Mesmers to do ANYTHING!

The OP, of course is right IMO. anet caters to the cookie cutter builds. That's a fact. The devs/testers can't seem to come up with a plan for an intelligent AI, so they just beef them up with enormous damage, insane health, more speed and throw in area effects to screw with your entire party. THEN they played it through to make sure it's playable, and threw us the bone.

Sure it's playable.... with a freakin specific team build that has no place for Me's, Derv's, Assassins, Paragons, Rits, etc.

That takes out all the fun if you're palying one of those classes. I'm not referring to those with sucky builds either, so don't even go there. I'm talking about people with their OWN builds that know how to play them and adjust for the mission/quest with a change here or there. I do it all the time, and if the group leader tells me to run a specific build he/she read on wiki while I'm pugging, I tell him/her to kiss my ass.

Good Job with the thread Pro-Monk. We need more just like them to shake things up some more.

KANE

The game is no longer fun for some people not because the game has gotten worse, but because those people got bored with it because they've played for so much. It happens with everything in life. Don't blame the game because you've lost interest in it.

I was hoping this thread would consist only of:

hexes on jade. lol.


Anyway....
you are basically complaining that the "fixes" ANet has made has messed up the game? Yeah...no.

I took a five month break from the game after completing Nightfall, for life reasons and simply because I was burned out. After recently returning, I find the game to be more enjoyable than it's been in awhile, and the player environment doesn't seem as serious as it used to be. In PvE it seems like I'm running into more players just having fun and playing a game, rather than forging a virtual career. Personally I like the new feel and direction.

I have to agree with the OP on a few points(loot scaling, crappy rewards, etc) but the AOE update was a good one. Would you stay in AOE damage? No? Why should they.

It is just so sad that ALL the new classes ANET came up with, AREN'T wanted for elite area's or just normal gameplay. You have ever seen people asking for a Paragon/Ritualist/Assassin(exclude shadow form abuse) or Dervish? No? Me neither.

tss... Seams your the type of guy who don't know wtf grind is, let me explain it 2 u my not so understanding freind, (this little bit i have taken from a lovely little site called Wikipedia.org, 2( i will be substituting the word to with the number "2", trough the rest of this entire post ) explain 2 you what grinding is:
(oh one more thing, i switched all the to's out in this post with "2")
So what you are telling me that, i shoulden't be playing games beacuse, all of them will with out a doubt be booring ? And that Guildwars needs 2 be booring? Guildwars haven't been a grinding game always you know, Grinding was first introduced as a requirement in pve factions, with the Kurzick and Luxon factions, before that part it was a posibility 2 play the game whitout a single bit of grinding. Right before loot-scaling getting cool stuff weren't a grinding hell, it was fun 2 farm at that time, getting the rush when a
sup vigor rune, or a perfect fellblade from fow dropped for you, and you were all excited, beacuse you knew that those items could net you a nice aoument of money, so that you could get the armor, or the weapon you always wanted. But sure you must be that kind of person, that enjoys a game where getting cool stuff means not having a fun time, or just a pvp'er who haven't experienced Guildwars from its pve part. Beacuse it doesen't seam like you are playing the same Game as the rest of us. And i will not repeat myself with the immortal words GRINDING SUX! (sucks with X -cks). oh... One more thing please tell me if i missed a "to" in the post. Have a nice day ~Whisper

actually some people ask for dervishes as tanks or ritualists as splinter barragers but yeah, not much else...
it's sad that the usual party is
Warrior->Tank
Elementalist->Nuker
Necromancer->Spiteful Spirit
Monk->Healer
Monk->Bonder
works for most areas of the game, in the high end areas you add a few more nukers and perhaps another monk.

also, if you ran out of things to do try soloing the entire game in hard mode with non popular classes such as Mesmer. although it will be some variation of 55ing for the most part

i am a somewhat casual gw player, i play 1-3 times a week. i dont join player groups and only use heroes/henchies. (too much abusive insults with players)

speaking as a casual player i can say this game is designed for regular players. i have played for 16+ months now, and have had the hardest time of any game. making enough money for armor or supplies (keys) is very tought and takes alot of time, more than i have.

i choose to play a warrior (axe). my build is not from a site, it is just skills i like and find useful. i can not farm alone, i need heroes/henchies. and aside from flaggin during boss kills i get almost no drops. before i learned to flag i was doing Farming Run Sets of 100 on each boss. i would get 1-2 greens if i was lucky. my money farming is poor, i cap at about 4 plat an hour. (heroes and henchies take alot) normally i farm RoT, margonite drops are normally worth 50gold each at merchant. i also do not normally trade. i will not spam. and my messages get swallowed up lightning fast, no chance of being seen.

i cant play the elite missions at all due to my aversion to players. and because heroes and henchies are not permitted (wont go through the portal)

Titles are impossible for me to complete. requires more time and platinum than i will ever have. and as to the obsidian armor comment. there is no way a player like myself can get Obsidian armor, costs way to much and its almost impossible for me to get ecto's.

Capping skills in some areas is impossible for me. (mineral Springs) i also do not know how to "Pull" properly. i try and end up aggroing the entire mob.

Players in general do not want to take the time to explain things in a contructive and positive way. they just spam abuse and get others to kick me from groups. i have joined a few guilds, but i was nothing more than a slot filler to them. i would get no help nor any advice. all i ever hear is "go read wiki".

things i would like to change:
heroes and henchies take no drops. this would help me so much i cant even express it enough. i want to be able to make money and items without giving up my axe warrior and playing another char/build.

Hero Skill Priority: allowing players to mark which skills should be use in conjunction to others would help alot also. maybe differant colored markers with numbers. the hero will use colored combos together more often while the AI checks which skills have priority in a combination.

Full Party of Heroes for Elite Missions and Uw,Fow. so i can actually play them.

Maybe an Easy Mode? i know most players will laugh at this but it would help most of us Casual players alot. getting stuck at granite citadel for 2 months isnt fun.

*i'd like to end this on a good note. i love guildwars, i love the game. the events are wonderful and alot of fun, not much i dont like about the game except the need to play with others to gain the maximum benefits.

i plan on playing the game for many years, although i am stuck and have been stuck for some time now, so i do plan to move on to other games for a time. but i will always return to gw until i get tired of being stuck.

guild wars pve - is essentially about killing monsters.

when u kill a monster, u want to be rewarded for it. so generally, when a monster drops nothing, and 10 other monsters after him drop nothing. it doesnt feel like you've been rewarded for your efforts, therefore it feels like you've just wasted time because you've killed 10 monsters and theres no show for it.

drops / items / gold is what gives a point to the whole kill 1 000 000 monsters thing.

The argument I don't understand (perhaps someone can clear it up for me):

Player 1: "I have lost the only thing I can do in PvE endgame - farming! Now I'm bored and there's nothing else!"

Player 2: "OK, but you can still farm, you just get less than you did before."

Player 1: "Exactly! Now I gotta farm for 4 hours for what I used to get in 1 hour! It's just stupid!"

Player 2: "Wait a minute, weren't you just complaining about having nothing to do?"

Wow your a tool. Your the one complaining that guild wars has too much grind. All I said was if you think that the grind in guild wars is bad then you shouldn't be playing games. Guild wars has less grind than a lot of games. By the way you can look as ignorant as you want with your posts, I really don't give a damn. I know that I wont take anything you say serious and a lot of others feel the same way.

100% agree... I used to love farming but know it seems pointless. I am poorer than ever before, can't manage to sell rare items, farming has been nerfed to hell because Anet can't think of an intelligent way of eliminating bots...

Damn, I used to be able to make 75k/day easy vermin farming, I could make even more Gloom Farming... but now I just get bored... barely anything drops and its all pointless.

I figured it was probably going to be another one about some one bitching about something Anet did and saying Anet was a failure but hoped it would be about [card]Price Of Failure[/card].

For me its time spend and reward gained, before lootscaling i could spend little time farming, and more time playing, 2 get 8x the reward that i do now in that way it also makes farming fun, beacuse i have 2 spend less time on it, so that when i farm its a change from then normal gameplay, making the game more exciting, in the way, that i can switch from the grind part 2 the fun part, and still get some cool stuff, thats what makes the game enjoyable for me, but after hm/loot scalling, wich was intented 2 give the final blow 2 farming, making it impossible for a casual player 2 earn money for Ex. 15k armor, and enjoying the game at the same time. So now if i wan' a 15k armor it's just grind grind grind with no fun.

I still don't see any difference between farming then and farming now, except you get less stuff. If you're doing it solely for fun, what does it matter how much you get? Besides, less reward is still some reward. If you're doing it solely for the cash, there are other ways to make money, ways that are much quicker than farming, and there are even ways to farm for a lot of cash, if you know the right spots and are willing to try a little harder.

The point is, you want the way it used to be - minimal effort for lots of wealth (compared to the average player). The point is, you are comparing how much you make now to how much you made then. Always consider this point when making a complaint or concern: If the game was like it is now at release, would you still have played it? Would you complain from the beginning that you aren't getting enough drops soloing? If yes, ask yourself: Would you complain that you weren't getting enough drops no matter how much you were making, period?

And to add to your point less money is equal to more since the value of gold has improved a lot.

First, Gratz to the OP for presenting a position I disagree with in an well argued, civil way.

Second, can the people who don't like HM/Loot scaling please stop saying you're just out to protect the "casual player"? Everyone realizes what you want to protect is "the way I like to play." It's abolutely fine to have that opinion. Really it is. Just spare us the "I'm just looking out for other people" line. It just makes you come across like phony politicians.

I always never get bored, most of the time i play with the weekends or i make my own weekends (funny as hell ). This weekend i had the Farm weekend (friday evening : ele) (Saturday : monk) (Today: Ranger).Next weekend it's going to be Vanquishing one or pvp , and so i keep adding this up. (Like Title hunting or w/e) and after a time i make some little papers with the name on, do it in a kind of a hat and pick one out of it.So it's always different and never get bored xD. (if it's a good weekend like SS/LB double things or dragon stuff then i join it and wait for other weekend).

Look back at old posts here, when the game was fun..maybe and I stress MAYBE 1/10th as many upset people. Why? because you now have to grind to attain anything worth having. I only started a year ago and at that time it had been somewhat nerfed (so say my guildies) but I could still get 15k armor and a nice set of weapons for the 3 characters I had. Now I have 9 characters and 4 of them have 15k, I cannot afford it on the rest of them and I have been using all the farming pages on here to try to find a way to make more money but every time something pops up where you can make gold it is nerfed before I get a chance to do it. This is a GAME and should be fun, but to a player with millions of exp, all games beat, protector titles, guardian, cartography, etc what is left? Farming, that is all that is left and now it is worthless to do so I agree with OP that a-net needs to bring back the fun and give us options to make money. A easy one that would not add to the bot problem would be just to GREATLY increase the reward for quests especially those near the end of the games. then it would give us a way to make gold, promote playing in groups instead of solo, and keep the bots from exploiting all at the same time

Seams 2 me u give a damn, if u don't then please stop talking nonsens and leave my opinions 2 myself k?. As Kane said u don't seam 2 get what lootscaling have done!, Sure it lowered items that is tradet between players, but merchants still got the same prices, so that crap u wrote about gold has a greater value is B*** S*** ! So no lootscaling diden't raise the value of gold.