Suggestions for Item Customization and Trading System

Okay this is going to take some explaining, especially since trading and merchanting seems to be a widely accepted practice in our capitalist system. I'm suggesting to remove this practice, at least in Guild Wars 2. So please read my reasonings.

As gamedesigner myself, I always became frustrated at players that acquire items for a low price, and resell them for more. I consider these people parasistes, that contribute nothing and live off other people's hard work and efforts. Often because players that make a lot of money with this acquired the items in a manner I find morally disgusting (scamming/exploiting game mechanics to cheat other players and take their items, or buying it from new players that do not know the value for a far too low price). There are games that attempted to stop this behaviour and forcing players to work for their items instead of trading them, the best-known example is World of Warcraft's soulbound system, where only the person that picks up the item can use it, or that the item binds to the person that first equips it, so it cannot be resold later. GuildWars has the system that customizing the item grants a bonus, at the penalty of not being able to resell it later on.

However, in my opinion, both these systems are flawed. The reason is, that the 'bind on pickup' system makes items go to waste if there is noone in the party that can use it (granted, its offset by the mechanic to disenchant the item for some components, but still there's someone out there that can use it!). Also, as the original owner of the item, why can't you do with it whatever you want, including selling it for some cash? After all, you worked hard to earn that item. The 'bind on equip' and GW's Customize system is also flawed, as people can still be scammed out of their items and people still can make a profit out of trading them.

I said I would give suggestions for these problems, so here is what I propose:

* The original owner (the one that loots it) can trade the item away, or customize it to use it himself.
* Any items received in a trade are automatically customized for the new owner, and cannot be traded on to anyone else.

Advantages:

* Huge, direct reduction of overal scamming as people cannot make a large profit off it anymore.
* Prices remain low, as rich people cannot buy up available items to resell for higher prices. Newer players can afford items now, and get along in the game faster.
* Insures that the items arrive to the people that actually need it.

Disadvantages:

* Players that enjoy trading or use this as primary income source cannot do so anymore and may be less likely to buy the game. (not that I feel any sympathy for these people, sorry, I think the game is better off without them )
* Scamming can still continue at a small scale, for items a scammer wants for his own character.

Ideas? Suggestions? Opinions?

Hmmm..
I think i understand your reasoning, however some of it i do take a small issue with.
Some of the players you are referring to are actually keen eyed buyer/seller's. For instance, they may be hoarding certain runes in readiness for GW:EN etc. And to say they are parasites is really a bit much. If the average joe shmo doesnt think as fast on his feet than them, they are hardly parasites, they are simply doing what happens in practically every economy and thats "buy low sell high". If the average guy doesnt want to do that, then thats his problem.

In some respects you are saying that, if i go get say a zodiac bow and at the merchants its worth 500 gold and i sell it for what i want at say....50K or whatever, then im doing the same thing. if im prepared to go get it, then i can sell it for whatever i want. if i am "scamming" the NPC merchants then so what. doesnt matter then huh?

If average joe doesnt read the forums or check out prices elsewhere prior to a trade then thats his fault not mine. You go straight to the computer shop and buy the first ....flat panel.... graphics card. etc, you see without seeing if you can get it cheaper???
Its human nature your suggesting that anet try and change. and humans will always subvert rules etc when and if they can

Scamming , yes i agree with you that is unwanted and unfortunate but it will happen.

As to your suggestions.
Id disagree with automatically customising it to the buyer. I sell a lot on Auction and when i complete the trade, they are not always in the profession they want for the item. That would possibly peeve them to the extent they wouldnt bother going to the auctions and eventually trading. Perhaps allowing a time limit to bind it or customise, or not at all.

its in no way my primary income source, more of a get out from standing in town spamming the trade chat and not playing the game i like. Auctions can do that whilst i go play. And by reading your statment again, you are implying that anyone who trades is doing it for one sole reason, and thats profit...
Well ..yeah of course...if joe the warrior wants to buy it from me and it willing to pay the price i have asked thats the contract deal and done.. if he doesnt want it, fine go elsewhere.
unless its a tad crappy, then i will strip it for salvage if its good, or merchant it.
You are asking to change the "laws" of barter. If he wants it for 20K and i say 30k , we come to agreement at 25k then thats our deal , nothing to do with anyone else!

/NOT signed

I do like the way it is at the moment. While you call sellers parasites, you forget that it is the buyers choice to buy. With a bit of time and effort spent they could probably get for themselves whatever the seller is selling, but the fact is, people don't want to put in the work and would rather fork out the cash to have it now.

I look at it in terms of credit cards. You could save yourself a whole lot of money if you just saved up and bought it at a later date, but by purchasing immediately on credit card, by the time you've spent your money it's usually doubled through interest.

While it's not exactly the same, it's the same basic principal. Immediate gratification generally costs a bit more.

The people who sell the weapons they've bought from other players cheaper are simply more patient. I've done it many times. I've had greens that I could have sold for more, but I couldn't be bothered waiting around any longer so sold them for far less than they were worth.

Our trading system is on supply and demand. The people trading can only charge so much as people are willing to pay for them, which it turns out is quite a lot...

Yes scamming is unfortunate, but not all traders are scammers. Most scams are easily avoidable if you just bother to read forums or talk to other players. I understand where your idea is coming from, but I've got to say that I just don't like it. It's simply too limited. I like the freedom we have now with our trading system. It's very dynamic, and I certainly want to keep it that way.

[QUOTE]total and complete idioicy compounded with stupidity.

a very large portion of sold items are turned over many times including given away.

SUPPLY DRIES UP DUE TO CUSTOMIZED ITEMS AND PRICES GO THROUGH THE ROOF DUE TO SUPPLY CUT OFF.

nominated for worst idea of year so far

Hrm, I don't think so. If we're going to such extremes, then it would be better if the player market was eliminated completely and simply implement a merchant system like the one for runes and materials for every type of item in the game. That way there is no scamming and prices are always reflected by the demand and ammount of merched items. Of course that would require a lot of work and there would be merchants for just about every item in game.

/not signed, your idea doesn't make much sense economically and those people aren't "parasites", they are your average person because that's what everyone does.

People customize items right now if they plan on using them, especially with rare skinned items. And you can't pass on consumables like dyes after use. So prices aren't going through the roof, they will lower as people can't hoard them and thus create shortage.

If I want to sell an item, I sell it for a reasonable price, often slightly below the average. The people that gets the item should be someone that needs it. Not someone that goes spam the trade trying to resell my item for a few 1000s more (so the one that needs the item has to pay 1000s more, hence prices will stay high with the current system and decrease with my system).

Saying that being parasitical is human nature, you might as well argue that children are allowed to beat eachother up in the kindergarten, cause it's in the nature of (at least some of) the children to do so. Game Designers have a responsibility, at least that is the way I feel, to encourage players to do good and discourage players to do bad, just like children being taught to socialize and interact properly with others in the kindergarten.

Now that's where you're wrong. Game designers have a responsibility to make money for the company they work for. Morality has absolutely nothing to do with it, and I certainly don't want it impeding my game play.

Game designers are not economists, we're not kindergarten teachers either. There will always be scammers, there will always be hoarders, and there will always be people selling at normal prices. Putting limits on has no effect but to dry up the supply and increase the demand, prices explode and people move on to a different part of the market where they are not limited. Your goal is nice but the world is not, the children are not innocent, the men are not noble knights. They can not be taught, greed is bred in our bones, if you can sell it for a lot, if you can buy it cheap, if you get something free, you say thank you and walk away. It might seem wrong but the system works regardless, it's rather ignorant to think that you can fix it like that.

Best statement of this post.
The OP , IMO, seems to want to be a one man morality police, and sorry, that doesnt wash with me. If the developers had wanted this to be an ultra moral game they would have designed it this way. As such its working just fine the way it is.
If they implemented some sort of "soul bind" system to this game, I certainly wouldnt buy any more expansions and no way would I be buying GW2. That is part of the game for me, and that is trading. It makes it fun.
Granted there are scammers (i.e the ol' Dupe trick scammers) and there always will be. Thats why in my former post i mentioned that its human nature to subvert the rules. Thats why there ARE exploits.
That is called LEARNING. Thats what people do.
Ever heard the old saying. once bitten twice shy ?
people learn from thier mistakes. If the buyer goes off and sells it thats his perogative. It guts me sometimes, as I am a guild events officer. I give away golds and greens and mini pets etc on a regular basis. and some of them just go right out and sell it.

Well thats the way of the world. Tell me, If you won a competition and the prize was a car, say a ferrari. Would you keep it? could you afford to run it?
So if the answer is no.... what, you bang it in the garage and let it settle with dust. or do you sell it and make some money to get your family a little better bit of life
Choice......very very important word in life, and try and remember that in everything your going to "design"

And that's exactly what my system would allow, the first owner can sell it on! I think everyone stops reading at the 'soulbound' thing and thinks I want to put in some 'bind on pickup' system, which I'm not. People can trade away the items they won't need, and they can buy items they don't have, can't get, or want fast for some reason.

If I would win a Ferrari while I wouldn't really need it (I wouldn't mind a car right now, and I think Ferrari's are pretty, so I'd consider keeping it right now), I would sell it to someone that really wants it and loves Ferraris but can't afford to buy them otherwise. I'd sell it cheap, so he can afford to buy it from me. I don't mind getting less money I could get otherwise, if it means forfilling someone's dream. What people do in the game is pretend that it increases their happiness to have the item, claim they need it and will use it, and then sell it on for a profit. I've had it so many times:
Me: Selling green item X.
Jack: I want!
Me: Allright, what are you paying?
Jack: Name price!
Me: Well I saw someone selling it for 12k, but I think that's expensive, how about 8k?
Jack: OMG I don't have 8k!
Me: Then how much money do you have?
Jack: I got 3k.
Me: Sorry but that's not really the kind of money I had in mind.
Jack: Plz I really need!
(more whining from Jack how he needs the item and can't afford it)
Me: Okay fine, since you're a new player you can have it for 3k.
Jack: Selling green item X, 12k!
Me: You're not a new player nor are you poor, eh?
Jack is ignoring you.

I think this kind of behaviour was covered in the "is it worth it to be helpful"-thread or some thread with a similar name. A lot of people would have been helpful at the start, but this kind of behaviour from the jack(...) made them stop being nice. Other people seemed to be encouraged by the evil-doers, and realized that money is being made at the cost of some generous, good people. I think my system encourages being nice once more, as you ensure the item gets used. Guilds will also get less of those grasshoppers that take items and leave. And you can give a beggar an item he'll have to use, not money, which is what they always seem to beg for, for some reason. Items should be with the person that needs them most, not with the one that can make the most money off it.

Haha, and your goal in life is? To make the world a better place or to let is go to hell with selfish me-me-me take-what-I-can-get me-first-and-let-the-other-die kind of behaviour? Geez, I really need to make a good and moral game, so I can teach people like you some morals which your upbringing apparantly didn't give you. Maybe you missed the little story in Guild Wars Nightfall. The story with someone saying "there's more to life then just money.".

And to all of you, no I don't want Guildwars to be an ultra-moral game and the Developers holding everyone's hand and telling them what they can and can't do in some fluffy dicatorship way. They can, however, create game mechanics that encourages proper behaviour and limits the acts of disruptive, antisocial people.

The reason people are able to buy cheap then sell higher is because the first seller was either ignorant of the items real price, or they didn't want to be bothered standing around spamming trying to sell the item when they could instead be out playing Guild Wars. For instance I use guru auctions, despite knowing they get me a lower price than in-game, and I don't care if the buyer goes an resells afterwards. You may of noticed that this isn't happening with any items that the trader NPC's handle once that item has built up a stable stock there.
So I'm expecting that if we ever get trading system that allows passive selling (when the buyer shows up, the seller can be AFK or offline) and allows some sort of feedback (even if its just a way to see what price everyone else is asking) then I'm expecting this problem of yours to vanish.

Also if there are any people buying an item expecting its price to rise at a later date, then your idea will be hurting them. But I doubt these people exist.

There is the minor issue of people using one character to buy an item for another one of their characters, but that can be fixed by making this customization account wide.

/unsigned

Or, they just want to be NICE AND HELPFUL to the other person and sell it at a below-average price for that reason.

Incorrect. Ultima Online allows NPC vendors to be set up at player houses to sell items for the player, and World of Warcraft has the Ingame Auction system. Both systems are still plagued by this problem. People buying items off cheap vendors to put it for a high price on theirs in Ultima Online, and people buying up the complete supply of items on the WoW auction to relist it all for a higher price (and immeditely buying up everything from anyone selling it at a lower price then his). In both cases, the players create shortage to make the prices increase and thus they can profit off it. In both cases, the players that NEED the item are in a disadvantaged position.

In Ultima Online, there's an item called a "bag of sending", which has a limited amount of charges and can send items to the player's storage. New players have trouble acquiring these. Veteran players prefer to buy them off vendors, because their income is high and they can waste some money as they can earn it back rapidly. However, new players really need this item too. But I cannot put the bags of sending on my vendor for a low price that new players can afford, because within 15 minutes someone else will have them all bought out and put on their own vendor for the high price. So I am unable to be nice and helpful, and unable to contribute to the game's community due to those traders.

In feudal Japan, traders were not allowed to ride horses. Because they were considered "parasites, that contribute nothing, and live off other people's work". I completely share this line of thinking, and firmly believe that traders should not be allowed to 'ride horses', as in getting any benefits that made it easy for them to perform their 'work', in game.

It happens, charr carvings anyone? Still, not that widespread.

I firmly believe that customization should be account wide.

I firmly disagree. Don't nerf trading. Players who trade for money offer a service which is: quick money. If you farm you have two options:

• Spend time in in trying to find someone who pays more. The usual WTS trade chat in towns.
• Sell it quickly to a trader player and continue farming. You get less for your item, but you buy time to continue farming right away.

Which of these two is more profitable is an individial choice. As it is an individual choice of players to decide to make money with farming or with trading.

Don't take away these choices.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]So true and come on its the ecomnomy of life where people sell things for a higher price to make a profit. If you don't have an eye for a bargin then thats your own fault. You could even go as far as saying that someone selling an item are "morally disgusting" as in fact they are making pure profit are they not?
They didn't work for that drop anymore than the person that got 55 bones it was just luck of the draw.

Please think before you post as this would collapse the economy within seconds. It even helps the botters as they become one of the only people that you can buy off...

Incorrect.

1) Spend time and try to find someone that pais a lot.
2) Spend less time and sell it to someone for less. Not a trader, someone that USES it and has a smaller budget.


[QUOTE=Technicolour]Explain how it would collapse the economy. And how only the botters have a supply. There wouldn't be fewer items in circulation then there are right now. Actually, supply INCREASES, as there is noone that hoards valuable items to drive up the prices. Thus prices lower and items become more available. Simple economics. All of you panic people with your "oh noes this will ruin the game" do not come up with any logic or reasoning, it's just thin air and fear for change.

And at least the person that got the drop (luck or not) contributes, produces, works for it. Someone spamming WTB and WTS does nothing (besides annoying people), nothing new is generated, no labour is done.

If your selling items cheaply to people you don't know just to be helpful, you should be willing to accept that some people will be there to take free stuff for resale. If you have a problem with this, then stop giving away items that are resealable.

Why don't the prices in the WoW auction house get bid up to the prices the resellers are selling at ?

What kind of searching system exists for the UO trading system ?
If none, then the system doesn't have the feedback required to count as an example of a system meeting my feedback criteria.

You will also need to consider travel times, because if a player will take longer to pick up an item, they will want a cheaper price on it, meaning there will be separate market regions. I know travel time isn't an issue in Guild Wars, but in Eve Online the further you got from the trading hubs the higher prices you had to pay for more limited selections.

If people are buying up the entire supply and reselling it for more then I can only see three situations in place:
1 - There is a price cap on the market most people use, but there is enough demand to support trading the items at a price above this. So the resellers bypass the usual system.
2 - There isn't enough demand for those items, meaning the resellers would be losing gold on the deal while building up a large surplus.
3 - There is something encouraging most players to sell the items quickly, but the resellers have a way around this.

So we are talking about a highly demanded item becoming really expensive ?
This is how a market operates. The only fair way to deal with this is issue is to crank up the supply of required items until all players can afford them.

But in real life traders are also involved in moving the items from one point to another, thus allowing people who live some distance from the producer to buy such items. So in the eyes of the final buyers, the traders are adding value because they are changing it from an item thats too far away to be used to an item they can use. For instance, unless your buying directly from the producer, everything you have bought has gone through at least one reseller.

But in games where travel times aren't an issue, resellers have no purpose.

Well I personally don't want to become a jerk because other people around me are. Unfortunately, everything in Guild Wars is resellable. So being a jerk and taking items you don't need from generous players for a profit is bad behaviour. And should be discouraged by game mechanics as much as possible. Especially if these game mechanics improve the community and the economy, which I believe my system does.

They eventually are, but by then the resellers have made their quick buck, the needy players have lost money, and prices have gone through the roof.

No search system, just run over the world find player houses and check their vendors manually. Usually centered around cities and other places of interest though. While your feedback system is good in scam prevention, I don't know how exactly you plan to implement it in a game like guildwars. It's hard enough to get a quick and accurate pricecheck on items already, and how are subjective things like the appeal of item skins going to be calculated in the value? Can see a list with recent trades, but there are so many items with so many mod combinations that that is almost impossible. Maybe we have different things in mind and I didn't fully understand what you were suggesting though. Also, how is the system going to stop people from hoarding items for resale?

Agreed, but even Eve Online has player-run courrier missions now to ferry those items that are in demand, and make the player that does the work receive payment for it. Yes I know Eve Online, I know and play almost all games I can get my hands on to learn the underlying gamemechanics. Got an 8mil SP character born in 2003, don't play it that much only renewing account occasionally to view changes made to the game mechanics.

4 - It are key commodities that are required by many players, the players need these items quickly, and there is a balance between supply and demand keeping the price constant. In WoW: Cloth (for making clothes and bandages), Enchanting materials (required components for enchanting weapons). Same goes for basically every uncommon or rarer crafting resources. The reseller upsets the balance by buying ALL the goods at once, thus creating artificial shortage, then relists the bought goods at a higher price. Since people need these items and can't get them anywhere else quickly, they are forced to buy it at the higher price to continue playing, so either he makes less profit from the product he crafts (because the resources were more expensive), or he has to sell his finished products at a higher price too, thus the enduser loses money. Either way, the reseller contributes nothing but runs off with the money. The economy is disrupted as well, as finished products may have to be sold at a higher price, a lot of them don't sell, the next day the resource price is back to normal and the crafters are forced to sell the product they crafted the day before at a loss.

That won't happen, because the veterans will start buying and using it more if the price goes down, and thus the price will come back up eventually. That's the problem with basically every limited-uses item.
It's somewhat comparable to a Charr Salvage Kit in presearing. Who will the kit benefit most? The level 8 player or the level 15 player? I'd say the lower level player gets the more net gain from putting a rune in his armor, as his total attributes are lower and the rune makes a larger percentual difference. If the price was 4k instead of 8k or so like it is now, the higher level players would just buy twice as much of these consumable items and the price would start going up.

I'm all for increasing efficiency, so I would (and have) hand(ed) out salvage uses to people that do not have runes yet. But if I was a magical vendor to help new players and be selling Charr kits for 4k, then the high level players would simply buy them out and use them for themselves, or keep them and resell them at 6k. Actually that's what happening in Ascalon now, people spamming WTB Charr Kit 6k and then spamming the next day WTS Charr Kit 8k. So the kits don't go to the people that need them, and an already strained commodity becomes rarer and more expensive due to the hoarders and resellers.


Exactly, thats why they should be eliminated in games like Guild Wars, and tolerated to some extent in games like Eve Online.

I think you'll find people hoarding items until they can get the price they demand. Here's the problem: you're going to also have people who want to packrat and collect lots of stuff, like Gaile Gray and her "collect every wand and bow in the game."

For your system to be effective you need to severely restrict storage space so that people can't hoard indefinitely (or until they get their price for an item).

Once you restrict storage space you're going to have an endless cacophony of whining from the collector types....

Or have like 5 slots for a shop that automatically sells items for you.

wow...just wow.

So let me get this straight. A few bad experiences for you means that we should all suffer for it?

All traders are parasites you say. It must be nice in your utopian world where you make your own clothes and grow your own food. Tell me, do your legs get tired from all that peddling to create enough electricity to power your home made pc?

I occasionally buy items for my characters or bulk buy them from auctions or sale forums only to pass then onto guild mates or sell them on after I've used them, how does this fit into you programme on morality?

No, my experience as game designer and the analysis of the problems that many MMO's economies face nowadays is what made think of a better system to solve all those problems.

And if you properly used those items, they would have been customized in the first place, to receive the bonus.

**shakes head**.
It seems that you dont get the "laws" of trading. If i WANT to sell at X price and someone WANTS to buy it, thats the deal. Being forced out of choice because of YOUR moralities , that maybe dont fit mine or the traders, is something i find abhorent.

Who are you or any other designer for that matter to tell me how i should and shouldnt do business and trade. If I want to make a profit of Virtual GW gold, that is up to me. not you! just beacuse someone has taken the time to go out and get it and sell it at whatever price then get same item sold higher price doesnt make them a parasite, it means they are willing to sell at a higher price, work for it, spam trade for it or auction it. if YOU dont that is your problem no one elses.

Come down out of the ivory tower for a moment, because you aint any higher up than the rest of GW players!

Id LOVE to see the stock market work like this....oh dont worry we will sell it on at what we bought it for, thats ok with you isnt it mister stocks buyer!.. you dont mind do you?
Tha market would crash worldwide in a few days with your theory. The market in GW's by comparison is a buy/sell market.
If you arnt willing to work to sell it, tough luck on you. if you want to sell it at a lower price and someone sells higher, good luck to em. losing sleep like this over virtual gold will make your hair fall out ya know...seems like your getting stressed over this as its just a game ...go play it
Again
/NOT signed

/NOT signed

This idea makes no sense, it's like a bad nerf to trading. It doesn't help anyone, makes things much worse for some and in fact would make things harder to find for anyone. Traders and resellers in GW actually make things easier to find, potential finders of items aren't usually interested in trading stuff. In your suggested system getting good stuff would be all about great deals with finders, no secondary market, utter nonsense.

Want prices low and fair - just have a centralized trading system for fair competition between traders and easier information about prices for everyone.

[QUOTE]i will use small simple words and maybe you will see the light.

you sell or trade the item and thats it.

CUSTOMIZED

you find some better drop or run out of storage space and you have only 2 choices
SALVAGE IT OR SELL TO MERCHANT AND IT IS GONE AND THE SUPPLY STARTS GETTING SMALLER NOT BIGGER
if everybody gets an automatically customized item at any level in the game from common low to special high it is taken out of the food chain at that point AND CAN NOT BE PASSED ON DOWN THE LINE OR SOLD AGAIN

supply vanishes price explodes

Shakkara.
May I suggest, that instead of stubbornly defending your apparently bad idea, heed the overwhelming feedback on this thread and drop the issue.
It's not a good idea, for the reasons outlined above, but beyond that, you're not strengthening your position by offering poorly formulated arguments otherwise.
It'd be in your favor to attempt to realize exactly why it's perhaps not a good suggestion (for the reasons previously stated) and conceivably come to agree.
At the very least, it'd be a bit more admirable than lashing out at those that disagree with you.

so, i think he has a point. this game is plagued with "parasites" over eager to purchase things from people who dont know better at 1/3 of its actual price. i made my fortune exploiting this greed but will not go into details, but there is a sort of ugliness to the whole trading and ill intentions behind it. i however dont agree that that system would lower prices but raise them, but i want that. high prices means farming where you spend 2 hours reaching the boss you want to kill <(90% of other bosses drops are deemed worthless and worth 1k), if you kill him he may or may not be holding the drop, if he is he may or may not drop it, if he does theres only a 1/5 chance its for you. so you could potentially spend 4 hours farming and not make any money (not to mention how hard it is to sell stuff now). i think this at least would make it more worthwile to spend that amount of time if theres actually a substancial reward. though maybe having some npc that would offer more than the 27 gs for average 50k weapon would make life so much easier, i dont farm but peasants shouldnt go hungry.

if people want to spend all day in a major outpost or on guru looking for deals just to resell, let them. some people enjoy accumulating massive amounts of virtual wealth via "power trading", i dont really know why but they do.

sure it may be at the expense of some noob or just someone that wants to quickly sell an item but its not going away and gaile has already stated that other then further "trade improvements" [which i gather are tweaks to party search] were not getting a redesign or overhaul of our current trading system.

your suggestion is a little over the top though.

Oh but I think it is perfecly fine for the developers to limit player action to improve overall player experience. It's for the developers to make rules, and the players have to abide by them, if they like it or not. I hear noone complaining that they can't kill eachother in towns either. That is a limitation the devs made. And a good limitation, as it improves player experience. My system is similar, it removes a bit of freedom, but it improves the overall game, as the freedom was misused to harm the community, and is in the way of implementing new features to the trading system.

And look what happens if EVERYONE does that. There would be no new items anymore, just people selling the existing items at higher and higher prices, and all the gold would eventually be in the hands of small group of rich players. They do not work for it, as they do not contribute, not produce, not perform labour. They spend time, yes, but do not work.

The stock market is a good example of something we SHOULDNT have in the game. Rich people not producing but running off with the money. Shareholders dictating companies policies to enrich themselves further, at the cost of the employees. Hedge funds ruining companies completely, sending thousands into unemployment.

To you two,

That's why I'm suggesting this for Guild Wars 2, like I said in my opening post. Where there is still room for a whole new trading system, where people should have other options of trading besides the WTB/WTS spam, which preferably can be done while they continue production. Ingame auction systems or NPCs that sell items for the player would be fine. But only with the restriction that people cannot resell anything they buy off there, otherwise we'd get all the problems that plagued WoW's auction system and UO's vendor system, with people screwing over the player economy just to make a quick buck for themselves.

/not signed

guildwarsguru and guildwiki exist so that people are aware of the scams and price of commodities.

and buy low sell high is a common market practice. yes, I'm fully aware that a can of coke cost abit less than 10c to manufacture, but $1 to buy. it's all about how much buyer perceives the cost of the item.

THIS my friends is the best statement anyone has put in this thread.
Im outta here, I feel like im talking to a brick wall. The arguments put against vastly outweigh your arguments for a redesign of the trading system and yet you seem to think that bringing morality into it is a firm statement to jsutify your cause.
You are dead set on your idea, instead of listening to others and trying to re-formulate a solution you are being bull headed and refusing to change.
The vast opinion here is its a rubbish idea. and all you do is slate those opinions because they dont match yours exactly.

Fine go ahead....lets see one of your "moral" games then, give us an example of a game you have designed, seeing as you keep stating your a game designer, so that we can use this as comparison. If we could change GW for a day then it would be possible to compare logically.
We cant, so show us all what we could have please then we can decide if it will work or not. If you cant show us and that will include short and long term comparisons and statistical evidence of this system working in EVERY case, then I suggest that you forget this idea and go play the game. At very least act a bit more humble about the opinons people are taking the time to write and be a bit more accepting

How about new players and black dyes? I don't see a dye trader in old Ascalon.

There are various reasons for that. But if it happened in a game, and the price could be cut in half by removing middlemen that performed no labour but monopolize the market, and the removal of them is no big hinderance to players, I'm all for making game mechanics to render that practice impossible.

All of your arguments have already been rendered invalid by my counter-arguments, so I see no reason why they should outweigh mine.

Unfortunately the games I have been working on recently are not MMOs, but I can prove my claims by setting up an Ultima Online server, I can reprogram that to test various setups, feel free to contact me if you're interested.

And I'm sure all the people that think this is a bad idea have not read my posts well or misinterpreted them. Let me say again: this system is necessairy to pave the way for a new trading system in Guild Wars 2, auction hall or otherwise, that will be exploited by traders and scammers, and monopolized by the rich few just as we have seen in World of Warcraft and Ultima Online, anyone can log in there and observe the hard FACTS of how players will exploit these systems if nothing is done about it, and how prices went up to grand a small share of players a profit.

Close thread please.

OP needs to learn to address negative feedback in a constructive manner.

I probably fail in this, but I'm trying to be civil.

Shakkara, learn to bow before popular opinion. It's a good social grace to learn.

LISTEN to opinion will you.

The opinions on here that you seek to lobby your idea are NOT there. Simply put NO one thinks its a good idea despite what you say or ask. UO is a completely different game altogether from GW. It has many many skills you can be or become and that relates to nothing in GW

I asked for a game YOU had designed. That is comparable to GW to test the ideas. You cant and havent come up with the goods to prove your theories especially as UO is a persistant world MMO and nothing like GW to be useful in a comparison.

And as for :
"All of your arguments have already been rendered invalid by my counter-arguments, so I see no reason why they should outweigh mine."

You asked for opinions in your orignal post.....you got them...you dont like them. They arent there to be countered all the time. the opinion is set...its not liked....and you are in a minority of one.
SUMO.....
Shut Up..Move On,.... I learnt that in a role as sales manager. Its used when your arguments have no further discussion points and dont hold any strength.
Listen to what other people have said for once and stop trying to say:
I have an idea...this is it, and if people dont like it then tough luck....thats what you sound like right now...
You havent been prepared to compramise, shift postitions, look at your arguments and change, give others consideration on there opinons, in any way.

MODS please shut this thread ASAP before it turns into a flame war or something is said. Its going rapidly off topic with no defference to the high opinons of others that this idea isnt liked

I will support the proposition, and because supporting it is morally correct. The idea that good business ethics is anything you can get away with and that individuals in business have no moral obligation to their fellows to be decent, ethical, and fair in all their practices is wrong:
1) Promotes anti-social self centeredness (as buyers learn that you the seller are a cheap hedonistic scam artist), and
2) Eliminates egality of play among those who should be equal in terms as having spent the same money for the same product (the game).

This also is irrelevant argument as you are seeking a counter appeal to authority. The OP has experience GW and many other games. The OP has had the discussion on a professional level among those that actively participate in managing game rewards and player to player interaction. While the OP has not presented statistical data on the mechanisms and their effects, the reasoning is both morally and economically sound. The only counter reasoning has been based in "Because I wanna have power to exploit and scam for my own personal ego trip and who cares what happens to the other guy."

I saw at least one other signed, and with me that ends the minority of one that was an invalid statement to begin with. Further, a minority of one who is morally correct is still more valuable than a majority who prefer tyranny, slavery, or exploitation of their fellow players at the expense of game enjoyment.

Why should one compromize with the morally bereft. My personal experience at the root of the American Economy (its transportation industry) is that there is absolutely nothing moral in it whatsoever. I have observed this from managers who risk the lives of their employees while violating the law to managers who insist you violate the law for their personal profit. I have seen it in all 48 states, more than a dozen employers over 20 years, and in every industry from food to furniture and housing.

But this idea is liked by anyone who wants to see a fair and moral behavior in the game with equal opportunity to express what one enjoys being in a style and manner that limit exploitation of players by Playas. And I am sorry if you decide any of this garment is cut to your fit, but not sorry enough to appologize if someone finds similarities between what I have said and themselves. If you are offended, perhaps it is true.

Please, spare us your philosophical/political oratory.
This forum is not the place for it.

Look. If player is smart enough to purchase low and sell high, does that make him corrupt?
Example. I purchased a stormbow q8 15% stance the other day at 30k. The seller was impatient and just wanted the cash. I turned around, modded it up, and advertised it on Guru auction for two weeks, and sold it for 210k.

Where is the immorality in that? Excuse me, but where? Where are your misplaced notions of morality and economy in this circumstance? Because I have more patience than the other guy, I should be punished?

"Moral behavior" There's nothing immoral about intelligence. It's not a scam to buy low and sell high, it's admirable patience.

Morally correct? More like economically a trainwreck.

Seconded...
Id not thought of that side of the argument Snow
I sometimes mod up items and sell on. So if im modding up AT MY EXPENSE...then sell on at a higher price, im now a hedonistic scammer huh?...well so be it...me and about 2.5 million other players too, by the sound of it. Using this awful idea, that would stop me doing that.

oh and ya know i apologise for making a mistake over the minority thing...lets call it a ratio instead ...the ratio of not signed to signed is higher, therefore its not liked by this community posting in this thread....there...more matter of fact for ya.
Fine go ahead and do your moral thing if thats YOUR morals...im a freethinker..so that also means i dont need or have to abide by anyone elses morals no matter what they think, so please spare me the philosophical rubbish and real life comparisons. if i want to i can if i dont want to i wont abide...so what...go ahead...flame this thread even more if you like as it will only get you a warning from the mods as im getting tired of hearing the bleeding heart stories.
You are talking down to people in this thread as if they MUST abide by YOUR moral codes and conducts...who the heck are you to tell anyone what they should and shouldnt do in life...in fact id say go get one....

Calling anyone who trades, hedonistic scammers, and that they are on some personal ego trip...what the heck? who the hell do you think you are calling out names and branding people in such a fashion.
Well sorry , what youve said is against my morals and i dont like that one bit...so you have now got to abide by them and do what we all want..hmmm?...shoe on other foot not fitting so good?
kthnx buhbye now

No and bull. There is never a social environment that is not the place for ethical action. Further, an axiom of the Jesuits, “No economic decision can be made that does not have ethical and social consequences.”
In this case I would say you supported the EULA violation market that comes from those who buy gold on-line. No one, I repeat, No one, can have that kind of money unless they have violated the EULA and are therefore criminals in intent, if not in fact. If they did not violate it directly, they have received their wealth trading on the expectation of gain in the corrupt system: placing their prices at levels or accepting payment at levels that only stem from the illicit actions.

Intelligence is amoral, what one does with it is a moral or immoral action. Further, a part of the essential elements of information that make up intelligent economy, is avoidance of excesses or moderating one’s expections. Buying low and selling high is moral if and only if the prices remain ceteris paribus and keep egalitee of quid pro quo among all players.

The only way to observe equity of enjoyment for all players as a train-wreck is to find satisfaction in superiority/ego tripping over and against others who also paid for their copy of the game. Equity does not mean all players must have the same appearance and commit to the same actions, but that they all have equal access to the appearances they want and the entertainment they are seeking without having it restricted or controlled out of their power by other players. Egregious pricing and sales, like your 210k for a bow, fits exactly into this category.

First, moral relativism is the absolute lack of moral foundation. All neo-modern philosophies so based lack any fundamental reason to prevent genocidal concentration camps, murder, theft, sexual assault, etc. Afterall, it is the Free-thinkers right to disregard all such conventions as they have a separate morality from the truly ethical. So, all of your argument from there down only supports a hedonistic anarchism as a basis for life and gaming.

You again argue that because everyone else is throwing Jews into the ovens it should be ok for anyone to do it. It is the same logic pattern. Still, Popularity of an action does not make it morally correct. Improving an item for resale is not an issue. The excessive destruction of game enjoyment: the turning of an adventure into hours upon hours of mindless farming and street corner racketeering just to get a skin or mod is wrong; no matter how many people have gotten caught up in it just because everyone else is.

/notsigned

With out people who buy low and sell high the economy would die very quickly. And if person A offers person B what person B wants for it Whats the matter with A selling it rather than using it...

I was hoping for somthing cool like account wide customisation

The proposal doesn't eliminate sales form person A to person B. It limits the excesses that now exist only to support the outrageous and scammers.