To ANET - Fix HvH(-Metagame) already!
nmemoric
As if two Seasons of retarded Gameplay hadn't been enough, the third Championship of gay, uhm wait this could be misunderstood - so let's better say: mirthful Assassin-Slaughtering just came to an end.
And surprisingly this time an Assassin became winner! :O
(Whoaaa I still can't believe it...)
Althought it became clear that the Assassin is the most overpowered Player-Class in HvH, at the latest when HvH-Ladder kicked off, Anet doesn't even seem to have noticed that something doesn't go well in their latest PvP-Mode.
With coming Observer-Mode and two "Championships" of Assassin-Madness there was more proof than necessary to pull of the emergency brake and stop this nonsense.
But what happened so far? - One lousy Skill-Updated which affected one common skill of HvH-Assassines: "Expose Defenses" which became 5sec more recast (oh no Assasiens are doomed ...)
And besides that - some other Assasine-Skills were even buffed!
C'mon Anet now do something already, before the next Monthly Tournament takes place and restore the intention of your Game: That Players win Championships because of their Skills and not because of their overpowered-easy-going builds!
At the moment (and this has became one really really long moment) Players are forced to play Assassins if they want to be competative and this really has to be stopped!
(Well there are two other ways which are partway successful, but I don't have to say more about Monk-Assassin with Recall; and Knockdown-Warriors are strong but doesn't keep up with Assassins...)
And if you don't manage to fix this Mode so that Players can win against others with different Classes and because of their Player-Skill ... I'd advise better not to give prices for crude inbalanced Game-Modes anymore!
Thanks.
And surprisingly this time an Assassin became winner! :O
(Whoaaa I still can't believe it...)
Althought it became clear that the Assassin is the most overpowered Player-Class in HvH, at the latest when HvH-Ladder kicked off, Anet doesn't even seem to have noticed that something doesn't go well in their latest PvP-Mode.
With coming Observer-Mode and two "Championships" of Assassin-Madness there was more proof than necessary to pull of the emergency brake and stop this nonsense.
But what happened so far? - One lousy Skill-Updated which affected one common skill of HvH-Assassines: "Expose Defenses" which became 5sec more recast (oh no Assasiens are doomed ...)
And besides that - some other Assasine-Skills were even buffed!
C'mon Anet now do something already, before the next Monthly Tournament takes place and restore the intention of your Game: That Players win Championships because of their Skills and not because of their overpowered-easy-going builds!
At the moment (and this has became one really really long moment) Players are forced to play Assassins if they want to be competative and this really has to be stopped!
(Well there are two other ways which are partway successful, but I don't have to say more about Monk-Assassin with Recall; and Knockdown-Warriors are strong but doesn't keep up with Assassins...)
And if you don't manage to fix this Mode so that Players can win against others with different Classes and because of their Player-Skill ... I'd advise better not to give prices for crude inbalanced Game-Modes anymore!
Thanks.
dargon
ANet is well aware that hero battles are currently rather lopsided towards the assassin teams. The problem is fixing things so they work ok here would potentially unbalance things elsewhere. Isaiah Cartwright (ANets skills guy) is looking into the matter though. You might want to go onto the Guildwars Wiki (wiki.guildwars.com) and actually make some suggestions rather than simply complaining it's broken.
Diddy bow
I think the design needs a rethink, the shrine thing means any normal build is not vaiable and just opens up gimmicks. On top of that hero a.i opens them up t things like sp spike because they cant use skills correctly at the right time.
lacasner
Quote:
But what happened so far? - One lousy Skill-Updated which affected one common skill of HvH-Assassines: "Expose Defenses" which became 5sec more recast (oh no Assasiens are doomed ...) And besides that - some other Assasine-Skills were even buffed! |
Onarik Amrak
I hated HB ever since they turned it into PvP for runners.
At least in the original people actually stopped to fight you.
At least in the original people actually stopped to fight you.
Draikin
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacasner
The problem is the concept of capping, it promotes shrine-camping and uber-tankage builds which is ftl, the sins just add fuel to the already existing fire. They exist because it is so easy to gank npc's when u send them to cap. Deleat the bullshit capping or change it and the sins wont be so imba.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmemoric
That Players win Championships because of their Skills and not because of their overpowered-easy-going builds!
|
Chris Blackstar
HvH lost all fun when the commander title and compition was introduced into the game, now only the hard core a--holes play, and play in a way that makes for fast wins or suppessed game play. The idea of capping and avoiding fighting, and being able to win that way defeats all purpose of why HvH was introduced. Now it's lost it's meaning.
Well Anet I guess it's business as usual, no fun for the casual gamer, but plenty of meaningless, boring compotition for the few, the proud, the elete hard core gamer.
Thanks for nothing
Well Anet I guess it's business as usual, no fun for the casual gamer, but plenty of meaningless, boring compotition for the few, the proud, the elete hard core gamer.
Thanks for nothing
lacasner
So your mad that people are good?
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacasner
So your mad that people are good?
|
Quote:
Who says it doesn't take skill? You can change the format all you want but you'll continue to see the same people at the top. |
lacasner
Quote:
I think you've completely missed the point of this thread... |
DarkNecrid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
I think you've completely missed the point of this thread...
Its called the Commander title... it ruined HvH in the same way Glad points have ruined RA. The same skilless tools will be there until they change the rewards or fix the broken skills. |
And you'll still be the same low ranked guy whining about it.
Evilsod
Yes because truly rank is what matters... its not how you actually got there. I'm happy with been just below rank4... better than been a rank 9 who got there using blood spike or IWAY. Think you'll find i'm the better player if you compare the 2.
evenfall
Izzy posted his current take on what should be changed for the SP sin in the upcoming skill balance on his wiki talkpage:
Assassin:
Black Lotus Strike: 12r -> 18r
Black Spider Strike: 5e -> 10e
Deaths Charge: 45r -> 30r
Dark Prison: 45r -> 30r
Shadow Prison: 4..10s -> 1..10s
Assassin:
Black Lotus Strike: 12r -> 18r
Black Spider Strike: 5e -> 10e
Deaths Charge: 45r -> 30r
Dark Prison: 45r -> 30r
Shadow Prison: 4..10s -> 1..10s
Xx_Sorin_xX
It'll never be perfect, but yea it needs a bit of fixing. You can win w/o touching the opponent if your running builds are good enough. While that may sound like whining..isn't HB supposed to be PvP? Or atleast it was an attempt at PvP.
Probably not the first to think this, but i've thought that maybe making the center shrine 3 pips might help, but then you run into the issue of extremely annoying spirit/defensive builds camping that.
Imo give us more heroes to use in HB only. that way you can have several chars and 1 person spikes (asns) probably wont be able to kill as effectively, and really get rid of cap shrines. Perhaps set it up more like GvG. Have 2 bases, and the goal is to control the other person's base as long as possible, like a point system for holding the base (kind of like AB), but also give the 50% damage boost and reduction in your own base. That way they'll have a much harder time camping opponent's base if they manage to wipe them out somewhere else, and whoever gained the most points when timer runs out/reached max amount of points wins. but thats an altogether different idea from HB and would probably take a lot of reprogramming..
Probably not the first to think this, but i've thought that maybe making the center shrine 3 pips might help, but then you run into the issue of extremely annoying spirit/defensive builds camping that.
Imo give us more heroes to use in HB only. that way you can have several chars and 1 person spikes (asns) probably wont be able to kill as effectively, and really get rid of cap shrines. Perhaps set it up more like GvG. Have 2 bases, and the goal is to control the other person's base as long as possible, like a point system for holding the base (kind of like AB), but also give the 50% damage boost and reduction in your own base. That way they'll have a much harder time camping opponent's base if they manage to wipe them out somewhere else, and whoever gained the most points when timer runs out/reached max amount of points wins. but thats an altogether different idea from HB and would probably take a lot of reprogramming..
NeHoMaR
Nerfing assassins is NOT the solution of Heroes' Battles. That sh*t overused build 90% of people use was after the update making all shrines counting. Ironically, that update was implemented because another "overused" build for holding center, but now is really worst because holding thing wasn't used by 90% of people. So, if ArenaNet revert to capture center only, I am sure the things will be better, a lot of people will using the holding anyway, but not 90%, and because you don't need run anymore, you can make a LOT of useful and fun different builds and not a clone.
deluxe
HvH would maybe become fun if they throw out the shrine capping, and actually let people FIGHT EACHOTHER...
NeHoMaR
Quote:
Originally Posted by deluxe
HvH would maybe become fun if they throw out the shrine capping, and actually let people FIGHT EACHOTHER...
|
Normally ArenaNet listen, but with this one they look like ignoring us completely, why? they know 90% of people with the same clone build is wrong, it's impossible to tolerate!
Renegade26
Tbh, I still think that it should have been TA with the obs mode and rewards. HvH is poor because the Heroes cant pre prot against Shadow Prisons, and once theyve taken damage they are KDed from Horns of the Ox.
TA would be a much better option for the obs mode and rewards, and Im hoping that that can be added in the future. Heroes are far too stupid.
TA would be a much better option for the obs mode and rewards, and Im hoping that that can be added in the future. Heroes are far too stupid.
Shadis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade26
Tbh, I still think that it should have been TA with the obs mode and rewards. HvH is poor because the Heroes cant pre prot against Shadow Prisons, and once theyve taken damage they are KDed from Horns of the Ox.
TA would be a much better option for the obs mode and rewards, and Im hoping that that can be added in the future. Heroes are far too stupid. |
Chris Blackstar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacasner
Lol...i was responding to the fact that the person before me stated he disliked "hard-core players" playing, which means he's mad that the game isn't "noob friendly". It's like hes saying that hes mad good people came.
|
The fact is that there are more of the second kind out there, those players I can't stand, they make PvP a chore. Who wants to play against someone, when you can't have fun, it becomes boring.
And what is with this NOOB talk, the game is very friendly to new players, it's the players who are not friendly to new players, especially the hard core asses. I was in fact one of the first players to use sins as a way to win in HvH, until the commander title was introduced. Then it came to the point that players would play dice to determain a winner to gain commander ranks.
Then Anet gave us tornaments, and shine capping became the norm of winning. I say lose shine capping, and come up with 12 different short battle games, then have three rounds, each round consisting of a different game, and determine the winner as the first person to win two rounds. Also have the games show up in random order.
Yanman.be
Remove HvH. It's not a game balance issue, it's just a retarded idea to have crappy AI do stuff. You only promote AI abuse. Certain skills can't be used by AI properly, so you'll never see them in HvH, and takes away the balance. Keep the maps, they're great, keep the shrine system, make them 4v4 tourneys.
hyro yamaguchi
Remove Guildwars altogether
nmemoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by dargon
ANet is well aware that hero battles are currently rather lopsided towards the assassin teams. The problem is fixing things so they work ok here would potentially unbalance things elsewhere. Isaiah Cartwright (ANets skills guy) is looking into the matter though. You might want to go onto the Guildwars Wiki (wiki.guildwars.com)
|
And that's what I don't understand - they know that this Mode is broken but they go on with Championships and giving Prices as if there was nothing wrong with it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dargon
and actually make some suggestions rather than simply complaining it's broken.
|
On top there had been discussions about "Skill-Blacklists" for HvH and stuff like this, so that HvH could be fixed on it's own without endangering gamebalance of other modes...
Anyway I didn't opened this threat just to complain that HvH is broken - I rather want to show ANET that this is an serious concern and that something must happen. (There is simply no more excuse that the situation hasn't become any better in more than three Months!)
Also I wanted to wake up the comunity because this concern hasn't been in spotlight lately.
Most people have either surrendered completely or just gone mainstream and play this bullshit by themselves in the meanwhile.
But still THERE ARE people who rather lose than play overpowered gimmick-builds...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draikin
Who says it doesn't take skill?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy
Sorry if this isn't in the overpowered skill section, it's just that the discussion there split differently on every skill and the problem is that it's not one skill alone that you look at and that's overpowered, it's the bar as a whole and the bar synergy. The fact that Assassins can solo spike someone in 5s or so doesn't fit with the rest of the game as a whole and doesn't promote exciting or skill-rewarding gameplay either imo. When your full bar consists of clicking skill 1 to 8 in order (truly 1 to 8, with SP-Expose-Tiger Stance-BLS-Horns-BSS-BoS-Impale, with absolutely no skill that can be used out of the combo) every 20 sec, and that it can actually work too, there's very little player skill involved (in the end you have absolutely no control over if you'll manage the kill or not because your tools have 0 flexibility, the best you can do is pick your target and hope their team won't manage to stop you) and it gets repetitive and boring to play with or against.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draikin
You can change the format all you want but you'll continue to see the same people at the top.
|
Have you seen N/Rt-Spike Guilds playing sucessfully Balanced after Soul Reaping got nerved?...
lacasner
Quote:
When your full bar consists of clicking skill 1 to 8 in order (truly 1 to 8, with SP-Expose-Tiger Stance-BLS-Horns-BSS-BoS-Impale, with absolutely no skill that can be used out of the combo) every 20 sec, and that it can actually work too, there's very little player skill involved (in the end you have absolutely no control over if you'll manage the kill or not because your tools have 0 flexibility, the best you can do is pick your target and hope their team won't manage to stop you) and it gets repetitive and boring to play with or against. |
Ekelon
Nmemoric,Izzy DID NOT say that. If you look at the end of the comment, a user named Patccmoi said that. Don't put words in his mouth please.
lacasner
I didnt really quote him, i mentioned the comment and used his name in general because after all he does control the skill balances.
nmemoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekelon
Nmemoric,Izzy DID NOT say that. If you look at the end of the comment, a user named Patccmoi said that. Don't put words in his mouth please.
|
but anyway this quote hits the nail on the top
Draikin
Patccmoi did hit the nail on the head, but he was talking about the SP build itself and not Hero Battles. You're forgetting that there are three heroes on your team that you need to control. Even if the SP sin itself is a limited build that doesn't require much skill to run, you're still controlling three other heroes at the same time. If you can't do that then you can click 132456 as much as you want but you're not going to get anywhere.
NeHoMaR
Here the list of the greatest exploiters of GW history.
selber
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeHoMaR
Here the list of the greatest exploiters of GW history.
|
All in all I don't think Herobattles are really fixable. There are too many problems like the interface of GW, the cumbersome AI, the lack of really deep and interesting strategies to win games, the inability to change your counters once a game has started (general problem with GW-PvP) and slow & often inaccurate balanceupdates.
I really would like to enjoy this gamemode, but I can't. It just doesn't fit to GW and they should have concentrated to improve the accessability of GWs strongest and most successfull PvP-mode, namely GvG. Herobattles were introduced, because NCsoft saw how many people were asking for 1v1-mode. Yet, they totally failed to see this can't be done in Guild Wars, because it was never designed to support 1v1 in the first place. I doubt the gamedesigners of Anet were happy about the decision to have to produce a 1v1-mode.
I wonder how many more MMOs have to be crushed by SOE before clueless marketing-puppies realize it's not a good thing to give players what they are crying for.
nmemoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draikin
You're forgetting that there are three heroes on your team that you need to control. Even if the SP sin itself is a limited build that doesn't require much skill to run, you're still controlling three other heroes at the same time.
|
Maybe you're forgetting, that everyone has to control his heroes, especially if you run an Non-Assassin-Build!
And Assassins are the ones who have it pretty easy as they don't have to care much about their own killing. After choosing their target, they have just push their skills from left to right and can fully concentrate on their micromanagement whilst dealing insane damage.
Now take a look at an Knockdown-Warrior for example: He hast to watch his target exactly to time his knockdowns, watch out for every enchantments as they are more important for him - and still has to control his heros in the meanwhile....
Ekelon
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmemoric
No I don't!
Maybe you're forgetting, that everyone has to control his heroes, especially if you run an Non-Assassin-Build! And Assassins are the ones who have it pretty easy as they don't have to care much about their own killing. After choosing their target, they have just push their skills from left to right and can fully concentrate on their micromanagement whilst dealing insane damage. Now take a look at an Knockdown-Warrior for example: He hast to watch his target exactly to time his knockdowns, watch out for every enchantments as they are more important for him - and still has to control his heros in the meanwhile.... |
But the second paragraph is where the knockdown warrior closely relates to the sin. From the perspective you give to a sin, the KD warrior is the same as wacking away until you build adrenaline and the push the skills in order, 12345 (except for warrior it's even easier as you have less buttons to push). In the other perspective, the sin also has to watch, sometimes it's smarter to wait and lag in between the combo and use the horns of the ox as not just a knockdown but also an interrupt. You may also want to wait extra seconds for a guardian to wear off and the like. Shadow prison can also be used as a snare during important times. I myself have actually gained a shrine by mere fractions of seconds due to bodyblocking.
nmemoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekelon
But the second paragraph is where the knockdown warrior closely relates to the sin.
|
And perhaps I chose it because of the similarity - they both kill their target on their own.
But an Knockdown-Warrior is ineffective if he uses his knockdowns to early and it's also not good if he waits to long...
Now imagine what Players have to do, who don't play characters who can kill on their own. I tell you, you've to micro like insane...
And of course you can play Assassins with more brain or just push the skills.
But there's also the problem: If the Assassin was only in that moment so strong when a Player had real skills, there would probably be no big problem.
But at the moment, players who don't have much skill, can play in top 100 without much effort.
Draikin
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmemoric
Now imagine what Players have to do, who don't play characters who can kill on their own. I tell you, you've to micro like insane...
|
spellsword
At least assasins can get into some PvP for once.
Theus
Quote:
Originally Posted by spellsword
At least assasins can get into some PvP for once.
|
And no,HvH isn't GvG/HA Calibur pvp.
Sorry.Until Anet fixes the fact that its absolutely terrible,it won't be considered as such.Even with a ladder.
Sarevok Thordin
Sure the whole build thing sucks for HvH, but why are some people suggesting making it 4v4 o_O
The defining thing is it's a solo human player effort.
The defining thing is it's a solo human player effort.