Edge of Extinction broken?

I do think the issue with it's range should be sorted - I don't think you should take damage from it if you aren't in the spirits range either, another thing that might work, multiple races , not like i particulary care about that, but it would be funny to watch a human team trying an eoe bomb and being incapable of killing bobo the plant.

EoE wins matches, very good skill - it's one of iways ways of capping altars

Good skill? yes
Annoying ? yes
Overpowered: probably not, range should just be fixed

And that is iway for you. If iway didn't use edge it might require some actual skill if any.

Another one who probably looses a lot if EoE gets fixed, so he tragets me personally. I have already told you that I dont PvP much, but I am a good student of the game and I have the required experience to start PvP'ing anytime I want to. But thats not the point here. Any computer/console game is just CLICKING buttons. I have said it before and I will say it again, every skill in this game has a outcome which can be predicted after its usage, except for EoE. Dont take my word for it. Here are some quotes.

All of the above quotes are from this thread and relate to what happens when EoE is used. All of the others are just OPINIONS. Some people love the skill as it is right now. But that doesnt prove them right or me wrong. In EoE I see a skill that has an UNDEFINED outcome, dont give me a saccer/mesmer EoE bomb cause its outcome is UNDEFINED as well. Luck is part of the draw I agree, but having such a skill in a purely competitive environment that leads to luck being the deciding factor, is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

its a good laugh if u observe someone who does it well. i was in a group that fought a EoE bomb group. they didnt do it well at all and it allowed me and the other 2 monks to use heal party and stop the EoE bomb from killing everyone. in fact we finished w/ a flawless. so if done rite it is amazing, if done wrong they are screwed.

Wrong. Keep trying with these ridiculous assumptions, Gotenks. I don't PvP with EoE in my build, moron. So I don't defend it because it's in my build, I'm defending it because it's not an exploit as you have retardedly stated.

What kind of grade school answer is that? That's like saying "I can beat you but I just choose not to" Why not just PvP instead of just talking crap? You only gain PvP experience through PvPing. Otherwise you're talking crap.

What can't be predicted about EoE that's so different about any other skill? If someone dies and you're near the spirit, you take damage.

And what skill gives you a definitive outcome of a match? If there are any skills that already determine the outcome of a match then that means they're just plain overpowered. Get a clue.

But I guess I shouldnt expect much from someone named "Gotenks"

I agree with you. But thats not why its broken in my opinion. A team using something thats hard to counter is part of the game, you can use it too. But when someone spams EoE they are not sure if the spirit is going to lead to their demise, or the opponents. I am against this randomness or undefined behaviour of EoE which brings luck into play.


Bad example there. Chain lightning has a very precise outcome if it is used, one which you can predict if you compile all the information about the enchantements/AL/Skills/Hexes etc active on its target. The damage from EoE is a function of the Level of Spirit, Number of people alive, Number of people who just died and their position on the current map so u can say something like this

Deoe = F(L, Na, Nd, P)

Where Na, Nd and P cannot be predicted by any human player dropping EoE. Hence making its behaviour random from the human perspective atleast.

Knock off the flaming, you two. That's my only warning.

I simply don't understand why you keep insisting the outcome is undefined - EoE does a very specific job, and apart from the range "jumping" issue (which I was unaware of and does sound like a bug), it does its job well.

There are teams that run EoE bombs in Tombs, mainly as a lark. I've done it for a laugh myself. I will agree that it is unpredictable in that, if the bombing team doesn't place and sacrifice just right, they've just lost the match extremely quickly. If the other team has Life Barrier, MoP, or just a well-timed Heal Party, the bomb team has just lost the match extremely quickly. If the other team is clever enough to spike the spirit before the bombing team has a chance to res and re-bomb, the bombing team has just lost extremely quickly.

Heck, even your "one race" argument works against you in practice: a bombing team that has just bombed an IWAY or Minion build finds itself in an extremely tricky position: they're about to res, with massive DP and at a fraction of their health, in a field of hostile pets or minions. If it's a priest map they haven't yet won the match, and if one of those pets or minions kills even ONE of the bombing team, or if there are traps on the field, the whole bombing team dies. Everyone resses at the 2-minute mark, the non-bombing team now knows what they're up against and have a significant morale advantage over the bomb group which has already played its trump. Basically, it's game over.

I agree that it's a cheap gimmick build, but that doesn't mean it's overpowered and needs to be nerfed. It doesn't take much skill to run (you still have to be good enough to get past the ghosts, and a decent team will recognize an amateur bomb team from a mile away), but it does take SOME skill, and even in the best circumstances you still lose - dramatically - very, very often.

Your missing my point here on the "race" issue. Anet works really hard to keep this game balanced. This has led to many skills being changed. Whatever Anet does the final outcome of it is that for every skill in the game there is a counter skill. Lets take an example :

- I get hit by a skill(A skill that has a defined outcome, that is X no of targets will take Y amount of damage or All targets in AoE will take Y amount of damage) that makes me loose health - counter : I can heal myself with other skills.

- I get hit by a skill which gives me conditions - counter : I can use various skills that remove condition.

- I get hit by a Hex spell - Counter : I can use variuos spells that remove hexes.

- I am inside a spirits range (except EoE), every body gets the bonus/effect of the spirits, there is no DAMAGE involved which directly effects someone being dead/alive in the game.

- Now lets look at EoE, I am in a team opposite to the one that drops EoE. If someone dies I take damage which ultimately has an effect in me being dead/alive at the end, which is the same effect as as a direct damage/condition/hex spell has. I have been given counters for those, what about EoE, where is my counter, if only I can choose to play a different race, but wait thats not possible, right?

The suggestion most people give is "go an kill the spirit". I ask those people, would you prefer to play guild wars without any of the counters mention above? Just go and kill the person who is putting those on you. Easy enough, right?

Well, killing a person doing this things to you is harder because of protective measures. EoE cannot be buffed in any way, so yes, go and kill it.


If you say you do not like PvP much, and you seemingly have no desire to enter organized PvP, what's your trip on if it's an overpowered skill or not?

I think it's fine as is, quick response times / some sort of counter measure [Mark of Protection, ewwy skill, but it works] is all it takes to neutralize the threat that EoE poses.

If you actually took the time to read people's posts you would have seen that a few have posted counters to EoE. Healing Seed and Mark of Protection are just a couple of examples of counters that are used after the spirit is dropped. And then there are less direct counters in the form of preventing the spirit from being dropped at all....it IS a 5 second cast afterall.

You havent made any valid points here. There ARE some buggy aspects to EoE that I think should be fixed but even with those, it's hardly an exploit. Why don't you let the people who actually PvP decide what's an exploit in PvP, okay?

I mean do you see any other threads screaming about this "exploit?"

I'll try explaining how EoE works again (except the jumping part I didn't know about):

For example an EoE bomb group goes into battle with just mesmers (no secondary) with Illusion of Weakness and health low enough to kill themselves. They run into a group with 1 mesmer/necromancer. ONLY (and I mean only) the Me/N will die if the EoE bomb group dies all together. Try it, you'll see. To continue on, now that the mesmer is dead, any other mesmers and/or necromancers in that group take EoE damage.

Now do the same build, but everyone is a different seconday. Everyone will die.

eeehhhmmmm.. no

I playes EoE-bombs often with different types of cover for the bomb. Once we disguissed as ranger spike . 2 Mo/Me 1 Mo/N 1 M/N 4 R/N . We startet bombing all enemy down. I prefer a one bang bomb. Which means my Team just dies one time. So Damage calculation
2 Mo 100 Dam to a monk
7 N 350 Dam to necros
1 Me 50 Dam
4 R 200 Dam

If everybody has lets say 500 LP so only Nec/R will die. Warriors wont be affected. And eles wont be affected. If its a ele/mes he wont die. Calculate your self. I know it wont work the way u described it. But i know it worked the way i played it. Could be i miss a thing but i dont think its classdepending.

And EoE isnt a exploit. U cant predict the outcome? Can u predict Frozensoils outcome?

Teams which use EoE KNOW that they are effected too. They do the math in the build with EoE. IWAY as example: They know the have the healing going on. they know they spread damage all over the opposing team. They know Warriors mostly get killed 1 by 1. So there is one on my team low on health. The other team has 5-6 people low on health. If EoE takes effect it would chain-up and kill all of them and 3-4 of mine but not all. The chance too happen that way is high in this constellation. So why is it a exploit to think that way? Its just a tactic and it fits. Its not and exploit its dumb to put EoE if u dont know the outcome. If ur not skilled (lol what a word) enough to use it wisely the and the other team knows how to use it your doomed.
Thats my point of view.

Bee

You might as well suggest that since you can't play something that isn't a "creature", all "creature" skills should be nerfed... or that since you can't play a Stone Golem, all "bleeding" skills should be nerfed. That's how much sense you're making with that argument.

I've addressed the "If I can't counter it, it must be nerfed!" argument back on page one. To sum it up: it's no basis for a nerf.

I suggest you stop replying only to the flames and take the time to read the intelligent posts which were made by some people, and you might learn a few things:

- Race is not a PvE-only concept. You made that up.

- EoE's outcome is not any more random than that of other spirits. The skill does just what it says.

- EoE takes as much skill to use as does any other spirit. You either lay it down and use it as part of a strategy, or you die from it.

- EoE affects both teams just like every other spirit. In fact, EoE is even *more* limited than other spirits, because both range AND race matter.

- EoE doesn't win matches by itself.

There's no law that says people can't waste a skill slot on a partly stupid skill. Most people who use it *know* how to use it. People who don't might end up getting themselves killed instead of the enemy, yes... but what's that if not a punishment for not being skilled?

Also, can you please try to answer this question according to your suggested version of EoE? Here goes: what should the death of a minion/pet under EoE affect in PvP, if not the other minions/pets that are in range?

It's a skill that serves a very specific purpose, and whose outcome is either fully under control of the team that used it, or liable to make them suffer the consequences themselves as well.

Is the range of the skill really bugged?

"For creatures within its range, whenever any creature dies, Edge of Extinction deals 14-43 damage to all nearby creatures of the same type."

This means that if someone dies within the spirits range, damage will be caused to someone 'nearby' outside of the spirit's range, so that would not be a bug. However, 'nearby' is generally not very far for most skills, so even if someone is within the spirit's range and another player dies who is also in range but not 'near' be first player, no damage should result, if the skill description is correct.

I am not saying that the skill should be nerfed. Maybe the description should be changed by Anet, if it does not really describe what the spirit does very well.

And @ the OP: I am sorry, but I fail to see your point about pvp-pve. And saying you could be a great player if only you chose to play pvp is maybe slightly irrelevant.

Uhhh...no?
You can just observe IWAY and see...everytime something dies the warrior/rangers take damage. Heck I'm watching an IWAY match right now, a Mo/E died, everyone takes damage.

It's not based off class, just race, and we're all human.

Also a way to counter:

Take a lvl 0 EoE yourself, it will only deal 14 dmg.

Look, you cant defend against the effect of EoE, so you better act quick to destroy the spirit, or have someone with about 1100 hp on your team, which is possible.

OoOo but I like the idea of bringing a lvl 1 EoE spirit to stop the high damage... but common, they will just put up another one. Unless they dont notice.

I dont think its an exploit, however... in case some of you didnt know EoE is bugged.

how? well even if your out of range of the EoE you still receive damage of it when a humanoid dies, wich shouldnt happen since then there is no way of avoiding the EoE.

It happen e me and my team like 30 times (since there are so many (IWAYs), every time i died a bug report but those people at arenanet are sleeping or something since the range of the effetc of EoE can be fixed easily i think... Also it was about 3 weeks back when i first gave my bug report to anet, so they should have fixed it already but they havent yet

This bug was already covered, this is what happens.

If somebody is in edge range, an invisible bubble is put around them the size of edge range. It's almost as if Edge leapfrogs itself from player to player if the starting player is in edge range.

Kind of like dominos. First one drops, then the next, then the next, all the way to the end. Doesn't matter that the last domino is nowhere near the initial push, it'll still fall down.

the same thing can be said about Frozen Soil, where someone dies inside the bubble range, but u can still rez them if YOU are outside the FS range.

I really think gotenks has a flawed argument with the non counterable thing. I mean, (I have run eoe before, but I might be wrong) the saccers have to die at least 2 times to kill someone. Anyone can heal in that space of time.

Hm, this doesn't QUITE jive with my own observations. I think a previous poster might have it right with the whole "nearby" thing - basically, I think you're right Ajora but I think the "bubble" is smaller. If the EoE range repeated itself for everyone, that would be massive and I've seen plenty of people survive by being out of range - hell, I've survived myself several times as a monk by high-tailing it out of the bomb's range.

I think perhaps the skill isn't bugged, but does just what it says: deals damage to nearby humans. If a human is outside the perimeter of the Edge but still "nearby" a human within the perimeter, he or she takes damage. But if a third person is "nearby" that outside person but NOT nearby the person in Edge, they should not take damage.

Untested, and just a theory, but makes sense to me. Should probably come up with a method of testing it for real so we can be definitive. Hmmmm....

I don't remember ever being able to play as Charr in PvE...

I'm not saying you're wrong, but maybe you missed someone else dying. I've done EoE Bomb far to many times to know that a one class bomb will not kill everything.

The way everyone is describing it here my above senario of all mesmers and no secondaires should work, but it doesn't. Can anyone explain why? It should, everyone is human.

Very nice to hear everyone's comments. Aside from the flaming directed towards me from a select few, here are the important things that have come up from this discussion uptil now

- Roughly half the POSTS agree that EoE is fine as it is.

- People have shown concern over the area of effect of EoE, some of them however agree that apart from that there is nothing wrong with it.

- Few think that it is overpowered.

- Also some people have raised the arguement that "Race is not a PvE only concept".

- Quite a few people are confused about the working of EoE, as they think damage from EoE is class specific (I think its the same confusion that occured when people were talking about a new playable race in chapter 2 and it was confused by some as a class).


lets see what someone earlier in the thread said too

Now lemme suggest a little experiment. Ghostly heroes belong to an in game race called the eternals, right? In UW after taking the spider quest lots of eternals spawn (The ones using IW) Have minions/pets over there and and use EoE, when the minions/pets die, see if the eternals take damage. I dont think they will. Yet in PvP a ghostly hero belonging to a different RACE takes damage from a pets death? So essentially they are all clumped together in a more PvP favourable group called the allies, which causes suddenly to change the meaning of the whole concept of races as it exists in PvE.

Most people misunderstood what I meant by the RACE concept in PvP. I never meant to say that EoE is not doing what its supposed to. If someone in its area has the same race identifier as the being that just died it deals X amounts of damge to that being of same race.

My point was that when someone enters PvP the defination of RACES as it exists in PvE is already violated as I demonstrated in my previous example and the qoute from Ajora. Then why on earth in a purely competitive environment would you allow this coupling between two PLAYERS in opposite teams to occur based on an already fuzzy concept of RACE in PvP? I say remove it since there is only one playable race at the moment and that is humans, pets/minions/eternals have already been denied the right to a different race in PvP as they are the ALLIES. Please think about it for a moment before stating your reply, and I hope you can see things from my perspective too

MATH is going to be in the world championship fyi.

Agreed. But its defination is fuzzy when applied to PvP (Please read my previous post)

Partly true. Skill does what its suppose to do, the way its been coded at the moment. Replace RACE with CLASS and code it in a different way for PvP and you will have a properly balanced skill.

Lemme correct your sentence as it applies to using EoE. You lay it down HOPING it works as part of your strategy, you die from it if youre UNLUCKY. If someone tells me that he can predict the exact outcome of an EoE use in advance, he's no mere mortal in my opinion.

No other spirit has a purely offensive (as in taking hp off someone) effect as EoE does. Every other skill that has such an offensive effect has a counter. A counter means a skill which works against the root cause of the damage(fire/air/earth/water/physical)/condition/hex or Armor for that matter. EoE doesnt have a damage type, the root cause of the damage is RACE, which I dont have a counter against at the moment in my armor/skill listing. I am sorry but killing the spirit is not a counter in my book, its more of a work around.

Yupp, but it sure increases the amount of luck(randomness) involved in the outcome.

I rub myself in Stone Summit Armor drops before every match.....EOE is fooled and the only pet that will come near/attack me is the Warthog.

A coldfire in UW died and my pet spider took EoE damage >:O

OUTRAGE, FIX FIX NOW. OGM.

I still say it is fine as is, especially in pvp ;s,

Try it again. An edge bomb team has 7 bombers, 1 Mark of Prot, resser. See, 7 people dying will not Edge Bomb the enemy team. I'm think your Bombs just failed and you have this false idea that it's because you were single classed.

It's not. If a human dies, all take damage. There's no class-type in the equation. Just observe any IWAY match.

It just seems fishy to me that if EoE does work the way everyone is saying that EoE bomb should never fail (albeit if a monk is quick enough on spamming Heal Party or any other circumstantial saves), but it does

I've done it where the other team just stood there in range of a max EoE, not doing anything and the warriors lived. My explaination was we had only 1 secondary warrior -- not enough damage. Everything else died. Maybe I did miss a heal, I doubt it though (not to be judgmental but it was one of those "W/Mo" random groups).

Only way to really know is if someone from ANet respondes here. Would be nice to know if EoE is bugged or really is class dependant.

EoE is not linked with specific classes. >.> Humanoid is the race, and everyone will take damage. It's always possible that their warriors were of the extraordinary life variety, or there's also that wonderful assumption a W/Mo used something like healing hands to prevent damage.

Healing Hands is a conditional heal only triggered by an 'Attack'
And if it was ONLY your team that bombed out, even if you got all 8 of your guys to do so, that'd only be a spike of 464 damage [58*8], need to use chain lightning or some sort to weaken them a bit beforehand, or just bomb in waves with a mark of prot light of dwaynaer

How come when you get hit by a skill, healing yourself is a viable option for a counter, but when you're hit with EoE, it's not?

killing the spirit is a viable counter. EoE, like most spirits, has a long, long recharge. killing the spirit will buy your team time to remove the opposing team's monk and then get to the ranger.

but the bolded sentence doesn't make sense. killing the spirit would break down an EoE bomb team. in fact, killing a spirit is quite easy. a spellcaster could wand it in about 4 hits. killing the spirit is the last counter, but it's not like killing the Mesmer who's hexing the crap out of you. killing the spirit is killing the spirit. if you want to end the EoE bomb, it's quite as simple as that. if you want to get to the source of it, then start hacking away at the ranger that's laying it down every 60 seconds.