Has elitism made players ignore all suggestions?

His build was bad. You were right to ignore his suggestion, elitist fag. :]

If a build has the label epic suck I offer suggestions. If the suggestions are met with aggresiveness, I offer a quick kick from the team. People that are not capable of adapting their uber build to the team composition are not teamplayers anyways.

Sorry, but it is not suggestive: "to express a duty, obligation, or likelihood = OUGHT" - OED

or if you prefer Dictionary.com: "must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency):"

So "should" is not the best word to use if you want to make a polite suggestion.

jos, WoH and SoR are pretty easy to get in factions. And for a pve build, IMO a hard res is usually good because I try not to plow through every boss in the area unless I have to fight one in my way. In PvP, no res on a monk is fine but in pve, I dunno.

Yes that is an exact quote, i made the thread about 10 mins after the event happened.

I didn't realize "should" would be considered so harsh however, didn't even think about it. Now that I read it over I guess "should" is demanding but still, I don't think the entire context of what I said was overly aggressive.

I'm always open to suggestions but there are times when someone insists you bring something which many times seems to be a "something" they've merely heard about rather than actually being familiar with it and how it works.

Case in point: my rit carries Vital Weapon - it's cheap, fast, lasts a long time and the fast recharge makes it very easy to spam the whole party.

Was doing the Torment mission with the fire dryders and the ('sin) leader insisted I bring Brutal Weapon instead and cast it on everyone. Well, ok. We start in, I cast it on him and while I'm waiting 15 secs for it to recharge they run off, straight into the first mob of Margos, promptly wiping and then mapping out before the few still alive can regroup and try to res them.

If you're going to ask someone to bring something specific, it helps to be familiar with how it works. Keep in mind, too, that some people buy skills which they never use so, while they might have a particular skill to bring, they may not be experienced in using it. PUGs aren't the place [Ii]I'd[/i] choose to practice a little on the job training, nor would I want someone practicing on me.

It appears you're a lover of language and communication! Me too! The following may be of interest to you then.

Communication modes in order of effectiveness:

Empathetic (I understand how you might like that as an all-purpose build for early missions.)
Questioning (Have you ever tried a build with more points in divine favor and focusing on one or the other of healing or prot?)
Advising (You shouldn't focus on both healing and protection. Just do one.)
Critical (That's a noob build, you idiot.)

Of course, it's virtually impossible (and just way too perfect) for anyone to use only the top two communication modes. I know I can't, but Gaile Grey comes very close to using those two exclusively in a consistently assertive communication style, and that's one reason I admire her so much.

The wonderful thing about the last two communication modes, advising and critical, is that they provide the person who employs them frequently with an opportunity for personal growth. They are indicative of learned behavior that can be unlearned with the help of qualified 'teachers.'

Below are some informative sites about communication styles I thought you might enjoy as well. These sites put the least effective first, assertiveness being the most effective.

http://www.leadership-tools.com/comm...ion-skill.html
http://trainingpd.suite101.com/artic...ication_styles

The subject is much deeper, naturally, and there's much more information available. Googling for 'assertive language' and 'assertiveness training' etc for starters provides a plethora of resources for learning more effective communication skills.

Hi Inger...

I can see you had no intentions of being harsh or aggressive. And, fwiw, I happen to agree with you about the guy's build. Furthermore, I believe that having two Dunks would have been a good opportunity to go out with a controllable prot and a controllable healer. And I might have said just that... "Hey since we have two Dunks, I like the idea of going out with a strong prot and a strong healer. What do think?" That way I'm not insulting his build and I'm validating him by including him in the decision making process. And when everyone feels validated everyone works better together. Win-win. Advising someone invalidates them by implying they need your advice to make good decisions. Win-lose. Pissed off people don't work well together... so I suppose it was a good thing you left.

If you want to mission with people. I'd suggest using friends or guildies. The latter being dependant on what your guildies are like.

Just take heroes, I haven't had dunkoro talk bs to me once lol.

Just a few days ago I got kicked from the final factions mission because I insisted on using wild blow on my dervish <.< Apparently it's "useless" because it makes you lose all adrenaline and chilling victory is the "best" dervish attack.

Well, question is who carries the hard res.
There are 8 people in full teams.
That means 8 people can carry that hard res.
Why should that be the monk, besides they have points in the attribute?
The paragon has a hard res, so you don't even need /Mo on that character. Same for Ritualist.

In PvE, there are 2 res situations.
First is in combat. Ressing in combat most probably means your monks have to work hard to keep the rest of the team alive, so they should focus on that and not ressing.
Second is after combat. At after combat res, it does not matter who carries the hard res and if it has a bit disadvantage, because of no/low attribute points.
There is some time to regenerate, even in timed missions.
Considering this, the question is if a monk should invest a skillslot for a skill they won't use optimal or a skill that helps keeping players alive.

If it's fine in PvP, it should be fine in PvE, which is much easier, generally speaking.
The only reason this is not the case is that a lot of PvE teams play and think as individuals and not as team.
If they die, they say 'where is the monk' instead of asking themselfs why they died in the first place. It could be a bad monk, this happens.
But a lot of times, PvE deaths are caused by bad positioning, wrong aggro control and rushing. 'Wrong' team builds also contribute to the problem.

Sure, I have been in many missions where the monk was the only one standing and the team was able to continue and finish because of the hard res. But was that because of the res, or because suddenly people realize they can whipe if they don't play more carefull? Which they should have done from the start...

Well. I usualy ping my build aftr entering a PUG.

They can then discuss about it. But i they just tell me 'chage this for that' and they do not tell me why should I do that, I'm not changing my build.

I got Protector in Prophecies and Factions without problem before Hard/normal mode, with the same build... so... builds are not as important as knowing how to use them.

Once, Dunkoro went out of the way and in place of his usual battle and idle quotes asked, "Hey, mind if I use another elite in place of Light of Deliverance?"

After the initial shock value of seeing this text bubble appear over his head, I typed back "Uhh...no. Just keep monking."

Then I got green text reading "Dunkoro has left the game."

Suffice to say, I beat the mission I was in, but when I got back to my guild hall and pulled down my hero list, Dunkoro was grayed out. I tried to select him but got red text reading "This Hero is too angry to join your Party."

So don't abuse your heroes too much...

And with that being said, does anyone know how to get Dunkoro back?

give him a cookie, make sure its his favorit kind doh....forgot what it was.


In Nm, I can deal with bad built, maybe just suggest to change a skill or two, and be polite about it, usaly works for me.

And in Hm, I just go with guildies, no problems.

The comment on using a good build was from someone earlier saying that it was an easy mission anyway, which meant that a good build doesn't matter as much (apparently >_>).

I usually bring a hard res on my monk because there are always situations where some moron has gone an gotten them self killed (outside of my range).

You clearly failed to see how useful that AoE damage would be against all those foes you have to fight...

Also, doesn't Shiro have something like 6000 health?

Because the person with the bad build then might think that the build is good and use it in high end pve. Then if said person does use it in high end pve he might screw his team over. So its best to help him before that.

Hopefully one day Anet will allow us more than 3 heroes per player...One day...Hopefully...

I had to read that a couple times. They really never figured out what they were saying?

Heh, I'll trust my heroes anyday. Sure, they are dumb as doornails sometimes (not healing, aggroing the wrong group, etc) but they don't complain and they don't rage quit either. Besides, soon enough I'll have a 7 foot tall Norn Goddess as my bodyguard..lol

OKay something about this post has been bothering me for awhile now. Here is a screen shot of Hard Mode, me and a mob of heroes / henchies and I'm probably using a build people would bash me for using and call me a noob. There are plenty of ways to beat things people !

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/592/gw110fu7.jpg

---
Added by Moderator: Image switched to url link. Please resize or use thumbnail links for images with widths larger than 680 pixels.

Are you saying, that we shouldn't critisize builds unless it is strictly necessary?

If they rest of the team was running that kinda shit, it would be necessary. Even with an easy mission.

Besides, you can improve beyond necessity, even with PUGs.

I'm crying. Whether it's with laughter or empathy, I can't figure out yet. Because we all know how heavily a dervish relies on adrenaline... If I was there and I saw them kick you for that, I'd have left myself.

[QUOTE=Lord Feathers]OKay something about this post has been bothering me for awhile now. Here is a screen shot of Hard Mode, me and a mob of heroes / henchies and I'm probably using a build people would bash me for using and call me a noob. There are plenty of ways to beat things people !/QUOTE]

that's not a bad build at all. i'm guessing you were also using an ele-damage bow and doubled up on your own interrupts just to make sure you nailed hibernation. i would only think that the "hardest" part of that mission for that group would've been the mesmer area but smooth sailing for the rest.

tight build, bro (though i'm not a barrage fan). i'd be as harsh on ranger builds as zinger is on necro builds. well...almost as harsh.

a bad build would be barrage + ignite arrows...empathy and conjure phantasm and 0 points in expertise. if i'm getting my posts correctly, this is the lame monk hero post and not the lame necro fow build, right?

this would be the ranger toolbar to match that monk hero:
12 wilderness, 12 marksmanship, 3 beast mastery

[skill]tiger's fury[/skill][skill]pin down[/skill][skill]storm chaser[/skill][skill]charm animal[/skill][skill]penetrating attack[/skill][skill]determined shot[/skill][skill]concussion shot[/skill][skill]barbed trap[/skill]

see any problems there (namely with 0 expertise)? (maybe i exagerrated a little)

edit: i should say though that i hope you had only leftover points in inspiration or you were managing to use leech to compensate for low expertise in a fancy way. regardless, dragon's lair is one of the easier hm missions. i think i tab/spacebarred my way to glint, then tab/spacebarred + 2 distracting shots on glint herself. i take full advantage of hero/hench acceptance of dead-weight for the 8th party member whenever possible.

There are a few types of elitism I see in game and in the community.
1. Personal elitism
The outward expression of a belief(note, not fact) that you are a better player than XXX e.g XXX said this they fail/suck etc etc
2. Clique elitism
The outward expression of a belief(note, not fact) that the people you play with are better players than YYY e.g YYY said this they fail/suck etc etc
3. Achievement elitism
The outward expression of a belief(note, not fact) that you are a better player than ZZZ, because you managed some feat/title/got more money than ZZZ
4. Build Elitism
The build(and therefore then person) sucks because the person used what is called 'ghay(hate that term, but oh well)' build, or maybe the build they used was'nt quite optimal.
5. Tactics Elitism
The tactics the person/group uses, is so inferior to yours, the person/group should be called a noob, put down etc at every opportunity.
6. Team Elitism
Anyone who uses a team composition other than yours is clearly inferior abd should be told as often as possible.

These are all the example I can think of at the moment, and being honest we can all hold our hands up to at least thinking one of these at some point in time.

However there seems be a rising group in the community that either delight in the above, or view themselves as above it all on a regular basis.

I'm not sure where the desire to be this way comes from, maybe jealousy, maybe insecurity, maybe a desire to join in the clique in fear that their attention may come to them. Dunno. What the effect does have however is that new comers to the game, casual players or those who just like to take things slow and enjoy the view feel increasingly isolated and made to feel second rate.

And I think that has to be bad for the game overall.

Very often in a pug, the person scrutinising the build had not built up enough trust within the team for the guy to chance his build. It's not about the build in situations like those it's about respect. To them, you are as random as they are to you. The suggestions above 'have you tried, xxx, or I found yyy works well) are excellent ideas and at least gets your view across and they learn nothing.

Respect the person, and you'll get a lot further than you would by raging or name calling. There is a right way to offer people advice is what i'm saying, not assume they are idiots but listen to what they have to say etc.

Although I don't pug all the time, I do enjoy doing so and encourage my guild to help out whenever they can.

Pugs can be a great source of fun(even unintended), if one goes into them with the correct attitude. In my experience, playing with super leet teams all the time actually kinda make one lazy, going with an anything can happen and usually does pug sharpens your play as quite simply you never know what they are going to do next. Will they pull 3 mobs all at once, will the wammo have healing hands and mending, will the monks be both prot monks with heal etc.

This simple chaotic randomness, is what makes pugging fun and a challenge.

Of course there is a time to be pixel, attribute, tactics and skill perfect and that should be the obective of a player, but not at the expense of others I feel. Sometimes I think we focus too much on the result and not on the journey.

GoR + MS would cause them to break aggro and run, possibly losing hate on the tank, at least for the first rooms. Its safer to just Arcane Echo, MS, Mark of Rodgart, SF, and then MS again, after the first MS has finished. Thats why they don't want you to use GoR.

Wild Blow dominates Shiro like no other. Honestly, I don't know if you are being sarcastic.

Obviously sarcasm.
Protip: When someone uses the term "clearly", there is a big chance it's in jest. The 6000 hp reference was also in regards to chilling victory only triggering on foes which have less health than you, which would make it rather undesirable for 90% of the fight with shiro, assuming I have 100% hp when he starts setting off impossible odds.

If you want to PuG, you will often have to cookie-cutter. However, I don't consider this a bad thing. You have to remember that cookie-cutter builds exist because they are effective (reasoning: ineffective team builds do not become popular, therefore popular team builds must be effective). You also have to remember that most players aren't incredibly good at this game. Therefore, cookie-cutter builds are designed at a nexus of maximum efficiency and ease-of-use. Are there more effective builds? Definitely, but they likely take more skill to play. That's not good for PuGs, when nobody has any clue whether any of the other players can even tell their heads from their asses. A cookie-cutter build is a proven setup for achieving a certain objective as efficiently as possible within the confines of PuG player skill.

I follow the system of the party leader determining the group makeup (this could be force of habit from GvG). This reduces friction between party members, because each person is given a bar, and they either run that bar, or they find another group. It's efficient, the group is ready to go almost immediately, and there's no bickering about skill choices or anything else. When I join an existing PuG, the first thing I ask is, "What do you want me to run?" The second is, "What is the team build?" If the bar they give me is within reason, I'm perfectly fine running that bar. If it seems ridiculous, I'll ask a specific question about why a certain skill is necessary. If I don't get a satisfactory answer to any of the above questions, I leave. I'm here to play the game, not to spawn drama over skillbars.

* Claps Hands *

That pretty much sums up about everything. Good way to get the point across and nice to see someone else has also noticed the change in this community as well. You could also merge this thread with about 3 others I'm seeing in Riverside. The arguments revolve around the same issues or causes of those issues.

People forget when they go into GVG and HoH that it takes a successful team to win. So now matter how good some claim to be it takes a team effort to be successful in pvp. This also applies to pve. Without a decent pve team you are not going far into the mission no matter how good you are.

This elitism is all in people's heads. Everytime I see people in the game claim to be all that I just walk away and laugh to myself.