Aug 10 Skill Balances & HA Update Feedback... Again. - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

11 Aug 2007 at 20:11 - 1

It seems that all the feedback threads have managed to get themselves closed. So it looks like we need a new one. Let's hope it can manage to stay open....

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My thoughts:

Most of the buffs seem to improve skills that certainly need it, but not to the degree that they really become alternatives worth looking at.
Most of the nerfs don't bother me so much, except for a few:
- Pretty much ALL of the melee shutdown took a big hit at the same time - blurred vision, aegis, spirit of failure, price of failure, meekness, faintheartedness, reckless haste, shadow of fear. From a PvP standpoint, I have a bad feeling that we're going to see a lot of unchecked warriors rampaging through helpless backlines. The bigger problem, in my eyes, is what it does to Hard Mode in PvE; there's a ton of HM zones that absolutely require very strong melee shutdown to stay alive, and I'm not sure this nerf leaves enough viable options for that task.
- The exhaustion on channeling. OK, newsflash: ritualists aren't elementalists; they don't have a very deep energy pool; exhaustion basically tacks a minimum recharge of 30sec on a skill for them. It's fine on the spirits, since they don't get cast very often. But it just completely destroys the channeling direct damage skills it got stuck on. They just aren't usable in this state.
- From a PvE standpoint, it really hurt channeling rits to lose both of their AoE attacks in one update - Ancestor's Rage got exhaustion and spirit rift got even harder to aim.
- Also from a PvE standpoint, with so much messing with the ritualist skills, why the heck wasn't vampirism fixed? It still doesn't trigger painful bond properly.
As for the change to the favor system: Well, I agree that a change was needed (since tying access to PvE zones to PvP outcomes was just foolish from day 1), but I'm not sure the new system is terribly much better.
- First, I think Zengeri makes a strong argument for why we don't need a favor system at all.
- Second, I recognize that this system is simply not sustainable. For the short term, it may work, maybe even well. For the long term, it will not. The number of new players coming into the game is just going to decrease from here on out, and the number of new characters made by old players is also going to just decrease from here on out. Sooner or later, we're going to run out of players willing to grind that much who have characters without the titles/free character slots, and then periods of favor are going to get unacceptably infrequent, then disappear altogether. Possible solutions to this:
  - Scrap the favor system altogether.
  - Completely rework the favor system altogether.
  - Add a bunch of maxable titles in GWEN (enough to keep people busy till GW2), AND tie favor in GW and GW2 together so that GW2's players can drive favor for both games.
  - Make some easier-to-achieve titles count towards favor (possibly as half-points) - if Cartographer and Protector counted (even if only as half-points), a small number of dedicated players could keep favor happening on a regular basis for the indefinite future. And that's ultimately what we need -- something that a small group of dedicated players can do repeatedly with a reasonable time investment.

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

11 Aug 2007 at 22:04 - 2

It is always the same with every balance update.

Melee class /Buffed

Castor class/Nerfed

This is the very predictable way of skill balances to be expected in the future.

I really wouldn't hold skill responsible for the what goes in PvP .I would hold the players or guild accountable like in all Professional sports.There are no rules in PvP as to suspensions game misconducts as the same thing tat happens in pro. sports.I will make a separate thread on this later but I would blame the skills more so the players or guild that cheat yes that is right cheat.I have never seen a list of rules governing the competitiveness of PvP for GW.We on our Star Trek Gaming servers have more rules than what pvp does and I am talking old game.I guess we are better sportspersons about it.

There is and was no over powered skill in this game however there is the overpowered player.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

11 Aug 2007 at 22:11 - 3

well there have been overpowered skills in the past, but those that were nerfed this week were not overpowered.

Sum Gai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Toronto

Me/

11 Aug 2007 at 23:07 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is always the same with every balance update.

Melee class /Buffed

Castor class/Nerfed

This is the very predictable way of skill balances to be expected in the future.

I really wouldn't hold skill responsible for the what goes in PvP .I would hold the players or guild accountable like in all Professional sports.There are no rules in PvP as to suspensions game misconducts as the same thing tat happens in pro. sports.I will make a separate thread on this later but I would blame the skills more so the players or guild that cheat yes that is right cheat.I have never seen a list of rules governing the competitiveness of PvP for GW.We on our Star Trek Gaming servers have more rules than what pvp does and I am talking old game.I guess we are better sportspersons about it.

There is and was no over powered skill in this game however there is the overpowered player.

Are you suggesting that GW should be considered a prosport, or that guilds were cheating for using overpowered skills that ANet failed to balance before?

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

11 Aug 2007 at 23:20 - 5

In principle, almost any skill you set your eyes on can become overpowered if you build a 8 man build around it.

For instance, by having, say, 3-4 warriors with adren increasing skills etc ([skill]"for great justice!"[/skill] just got a good boost) and then spamming away [skill]"Fear Me!"[/skill] would terrify any caster nearby. (4 x 3 war) = 12 energy drained every few seconds. Result: monks have no energy, party collapses. Sure they have weapon sets, but their performance is still severly diminished.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

11 Aug 2007 at 23:23 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sum Gai

Are you suggesting that GW should be considered a prosport, or that guilds were cheating for using overpowered skills that ANet failed to balance before?

sounds somewhat like a suggestion that pvp should be limited to a sort of sealed play, something I would agree with (like, given a number of skills that are deemed balanced previously, and come up with good builds on the spot, never knowing beforehand which skills you will have to work with); now that would be more of a test of player skill, ya? could also include specialty tournaments, like "only factions and core skills" or "no hexes"

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

11 Aug 2007 at 23:28 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

In principle, almost any skill you set your eyes on can become overpowered if you build a 8 man build around it.

For instance, by having, say, 3-4 warriors with adren increasing skills etc ([skill]"for great justice!"[/skill] just got a good boost) and then spamming away [skill]"Fear Me!"[/skill] would terrify any caster nearby. (4 x 3 war) = 12 energy drained every few seconds. Result: monks have no energy, party collapses. Sure they have weapon sets, but their performance is still severly diminished.

very true. and arenanet's stance is to nerf used skills, instead of fixing that fundamental problem.

but then, all builds are also couterable nowdays. soothing images or vocal minority would tear that build apart. just like ritspike was couterable, people just choose not to do it

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

11 Aug 2007 at 23:48 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is always the same with every balance update.

Melee class /Buffed

Castor class/Nerfed

This is the very predictable way of skill balances to be expected in the future.
.

I agree. The reason why people in GvG used such heavy anti-melee measures was because melee is such a great threat and 95%+ of top GvG matches had 2 or more melee players. It was almost guaranteed that opponents would have them so people would bring hex RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs and blind bots to counter them.

Instead of being somewhat radical and not being so melee-dependent, stubborn people came to the forums to moan and moan then the development team see this discontentedness and nerf the counters so melee can reign at the top again.

If people chose an all caster team, it would mean that the sheep that play the metagame would have a whole load of hexes and enchantmets (Reckless Haste, Aegis, Shield of Deflection, Price of Failure) that wouldn't mean a thing. But, like I said, it all comes down to stubborness and playing whatever's 'in' (i.e. Conjure warrior, SP assassin, Melandru dervish).

The necro and mesmer skills were fine the way they were.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

11 Aug 2007 at 23:52 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

very true. and arenanet's stance is to nerf used skills, instead of fixing that fundamental problem.

They nerf that skills that promote skill-less play.

Quote:

but then, all builds are also couterable nowdays. soothing images or vocal minority would tear that build apart. just like ritspike was couterable, people just choose not to do it

Doesn't matter if a build is counterable, it's a matter of whether there are practical means of defeating it. Go ahead and build yourself to counter ritspike, and then lose to everything else because the tools you brought can't handle anything else. Personally I didn't spend $150 to play rock-paper-scissors with pretty graphics.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

11 Aug 2007 at 23:56 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Doesn't matter if a build is counterable, it's a matter of whether there are practical means of defeating it. Go ahead and build yourself to counter ritspike, and then lose to everything else because the tools you brought can't handle anything else.

Yeah, rit-spike is definitely counterable but you'd need a build dedicated to defeating a rit spike team. Your build would be so specific that you'd probably get pounded by Zergway or ranger spike because you aren't prepared for anything else.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

11 Aug 2007 at 23:58 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

They nerf that skills that promote skill-less play.

Doesn't matter if a build is counterable, it's a matter of whether there are practical means of defeating it. Go ahead and build yourself to counter ritspike, and then lose to everything else because the tools you brought can't handle anything else.

actually (and i wish these forums had a working search so I could find the exact quotes) there are people that had normal HA builds and wiped out ritspikers before they could get a spike off.

And the skills don't promote skill-less play. quite the opposite, actually. the skills are fairly useless if not played right. played right, thats skill aint it? I'm still waiting for people against ritualists to post what they think skill is.

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

12 Aug 2007 at 00:16 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Yeah, rit-spike is definitely counterable but you'd need a build dedicated to defeating a rit spike team. Your build would be so specific that you'd probably get pounded by Zergway or ranger spike because you aren't prepared for anything else.

No you don't, a balanced team can destroy rit spike, just smack down one of their spikers fast and their whole team will CRUMBLE.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

12 Aug 2007 at 00:42 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

No you don't, a balanced team can destroy rit spike, just smack down one of their spikers fast and their whole team will CRUMBLE.

Yeap its the same with all caster spikes. You stop that initial phase and its bye bye history with them, but try to explian that to a few around, and well you see what happens. Brain dead sheep is what we have now in PvP.

englitdaudelin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

East Coast

Soldier's Union [SU]

N/Me

12 Aug 2007 at 02:33 - 14

From the OP:

Pretty much ALL of the melee shutdown took a big hit at the same time - blurred vision, aegis, spirit of failure, price of failure, meekness, faintheartedness, reckless haste, shadow of fear. From a PvP standpoint, I have a bad feeling that we're going to see a lot of unchecked warriors rampaging through helpless backlines. The bigger problem, in my eyes, is what it does to Hard Mode in PvE; there's a ton of HM zones that absolutely require very strong melee shutdown to stay alive, and I'm not sure this nerf leaves enough viable options for that task.
The exhaustion on channeling. OK, newsflash: ritualists aren't elementalists; they don't have a very deep energy pool; exhaustion basically tacks a minimum recharge of 30sec on a skill for them. It's fine on the spirits, since they don't get cast very often. But it just completely destroys the channeling direct damage skills it got stuck on. They just aren't usable in this state.
From a PvE standpoint, it really hurt channeling rits to lose both of their AoE attacks in one update - Ancestor's Rage got exhaustion and spirit rift got even harder to aim

Yeeks. This bit concerns me for several reasons: First, the potential anti-melee in HM... It was already hard enough, right? Interestingly, HM play is affected somewhat by the rit nerf, too--I've been out vanquishing, and now several key skills for the rit are dented, if not flat out wrecked.
Dissonance, Displacement, Ancestor's Rage all exhausting, and a longer cast on Spirit Rift. Harder to vanquish, that's for sure.

So, my feedback on the Skill updates--
I understand the desire to hamper overpowered PvP teams--I really do. But dropping the help on anti-melee skills only serves to make melee classes marginally more overpowered. Notice that assassin skills got small buffs--why? Warrior Skills got small buffs--why?

I think the alternative that might be better would be some marginal defensive buffs to elemental defenses (i.e. ward against elements, elemental resistance, some of the paragon shouts, etc...) to counter rit spikes (and HM ele spikes too?), and nerfs to the damage that the spirits do, rather than what I'm feeling is a FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE to how rits and their spells behave.

For the moment, I'll tolerate these...I'll swap in glyphs, or not spam Ancestor's rage, or simply change my skillbar entirely to avoid exhaustion. I think, however, these changes might not be for the best.

I now return this thread to the inevitable flame wars.

Vermilion

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

NY

12 Aug 2007 at 02:44 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by englitdaudelin

I understand the desire to hamper overpowered PvP teams--I really do. But dropping the help on anti-melee skills only serves to make melee classes marginally more overpowered. Notice that assassin skills got small buffs--why? Warrior Skills got small buffs--why?

Its not a huge deal:

1.The changes to anti-melee hexes were lonnnnng overdue.
2. Shield of deflection and Ward against melee weren't touched afaik.
3. Aegis + blinding surge are still perfectly viable.

So no worries. The Assassin/Warrior buffs are mostly inconsequential anyway, so its all good.

PvE is not my style so I won't go into that.

Blurred was a buff btw.

yeye

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

12 Aug 2007 at 02:54 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

If people chose an all caster team, it would mean that the sheep that play the metagame would have a whole load of hexes and enchantmets (Reckless Haste, Aegis, Shield of Deflection, Price of Failure) that wouldn't mean a thing. But, like I said, it all comes down to stubborness and playing whatever's 'in' (i.e. Conjure warrior, SP assassin, Melandru dervish).

People run melees not because they're stubborn, or because they're 'in'. They run melees because they work, they have the highest DPS, and because they kill things.

How exactly are you going to kill people with casters? Oh, countdown spike and repeat.

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

12 Aug 2007 at 03:21 - 17

Quote:

posted by Chthon
# The exhaustion on channeling. OK, newsflash: ritualists aren't elementalists; they don't have a very deep energy pool; exhaustion basically tacks a minimum recharge of 30sec on a skill for them. It's fine on the spirits, since they don't get cast very often. But it just completely destroys the channeling direct damage skills it got stuck on. They just aren't usable in this state.
# From a PvE standpoint, it really hurt channeling rits to lose both of their AoE attacks in one update - Ancestor's Rage got exhaustion and spirit rift got even harder to aim.

There is something else to consider, Before there was an unspoken rule to all spell casting changes. Exhaustion only happens to Elementalists spells if at all. Why you ask? because the class was designed to handle it plain and simple. I can almost live with some Ritualist "spells" getting exaustion because there was a way to handle the exhaustion through Glyphs, however Binding Rituals have no protection from exhaustion and many people run builds that include the three spirits now affected by exhaustion with no way of dealing with it.

Now that exhaustion is open game for any spell casters and non spell "skills" who will be next I wonder? Necromancers, and Mesmers to keep them from running Hexay? Paragons from running shouts too much? Warrior when they use certain stances? Monks when they use certain divine favor Signets or passive healing spells or enchants? Anything and everything is now fair game for a passive effect meant to regulate the elementalist. That seriously concerns me.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

12 Aug 2007 at 03:36 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

They nerf that skills that promote skill-less play.

Why would they want to do that? 90% of the pvp population is skill less, so what are they going to play? I don't mean that in a bad way but most pvp people are not on a very high lvl. They need their cookie cutter FoTM builds and they deserve to have some fun skills or no, why do you think IWAY was so popular, because the common pvp'r could run it with some moderate success.
Why are these mindless fun builds such a threat?
[/QUOTE]

traiur

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

Feathermoore Clan

R/Mo

12 Aug 2007 at 03:41 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

There is something else to consider, Before there was an unspoken rule to all spell casting changes. Exhaustion only happens to Elementalists spells if at all. Why you ask? because the class was designed to handle it plain and simple.

I would say that this is not quite correct. The exhaustion on the ele spells was there so that the OTHER classes couldn't run skills like meteor without thinking twice about it. Exhaustion(to me) seems to have been a way to make classes double think about slammoing their bars full of powerfull spells. And if this is the case then why cant the other classes have exhaustion causing spells? Also. The Rt's chanelling spells are basically just an attempt to create another ele class.....so there is absolutely no reason why they can't have the same "lets make them ponder about their build" modifications that the ele's have.
The exhaustion on the spirits barely effects the rt (yes I play rt and have played spirit spammer) the exhaustion from a spell is over before the spell recharges in the case of binding rituals. So that is just to (once again) make classes ponder their build instead of just packing it full of all these skills and not learning how to manage energy.

Im not trying to flame. This is truly how the exhaustion mechanic seems to me and I recognize that it is my opinion, however I have yet to see anything to make me think otherwise.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 03:51 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The bigger problem, in my eyes, is what it does to Hard Mode in PvE; there's a ton of HM zones that absolutely require very strong melee shutdown to stay alive, and I'm not sure this nerf leaves enough viable options for that task.

Shadow of Fear still outlasts its recharge by a huge margin. It doesn't stack with other speed reducers anyway. Wards are untouched. Aegis is cheaper to cast and you can still use GoC or SoC to prevent interrupts if needed.

Quote:

[*]The exhaustion on channeling. OK, newsflash: ritualists aren't elementalists; they don't have a very deep energy pool;

The depth of your energy pool over the course of time has minimal impact on the pacing of exhaustion abilities. Exhaustion is designed to deliberately limit oversaturation of a skillbar with abilities that cause it, while allowing a great deal of flexibility and low cost on each one. Except for some quirky ones like MS. If you think elementalists can build a strategy around spamming Obsidian Flame back-to-back because energy storage will eat the exhaustion, you're wrong: EVERY build dealing with exhaustion has to pace it the same, the only difference is the amount of time it takes for your energy bar to get flooded with gray and be worthless.

Quote:

exhaustion basically tacks a minimum recharge of 30sec on a skill for them.

Not exactly. The only thing necessary is that the skills are only used on average once every 30, but not only can you still power AR with the newly buffed GoE, but the whole point is that exhaustion clears even if you're not using the skill. You can use AR and get exhausted twice, and pay for the exhaustion while you wait for the next pull.

Quote:

[*]From a PvE standpoint, it really hurt channeling rits to lose both of their AoE attacks in one update - Ancestor's Rage got exhaustion and spirit rift got even harder to aim.

Spirit Rift does more DPS now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It is always the same with every balance update.

Melee class /Buffed

Castor class/Nerfed

Hello?? GoLE buff was probably the best thing to happen to casters since launch. Channeling's huge damage was only possible BECAUSE of buffs. Restoration is significantly better than it used to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

well there have been overpowered skills in the past, but those that were nerfed this week were not overpowered.

Fast-cast Lightning Hammer for 5 energy was obviously fine. 1395 AOE lightning damage spike on a 3/4 sec cast was obviously balanced too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yeap its the same with all caster spikes. You stop that initial phase and its bye bye history with them, but try to explian that to a few around, and well you see what happens. Brain dead sheep is what we have now in PvP.

That's because you don't have a button labelled "kill player" that removes one of the spikers. Ritspike in particular has powerful healing on SEVEN PLAYERS, and a hard rez on FIVE. This is not PvE where you can just pile your whole team on the monk or whoever and expect a kill. Especially when they've all got Vital Weapon on.

Quote:

however Binding Rituals have no protection from exhaustion and many people run builds that include the three spirits now affected by exhaustion with no way of dealing with it.

You mean the overpowered "hi, we're going to wait here and you're going to get KDed, interrupt, and prot-stripped if you attempt to attack us" build? Uh.... good riddance?

Vermilion

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

NY

12 Aug 2007 at 03:54 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Why would they want to do that? 90% of the pvp population is skill less, so what are they going to play? I don't mean that in a bad way but most pvp people are not on a very high lvl. They need their cookie cutter FoTM builds and they deserve to have some fun skills or no, why do you think IWAY was so popular, because the common pvp'r could run it with some moderate success.
Why are these mindless fun builds such a threat?

Because PvP is supposed to be balanced and competitive? ..Yeah.

(Iway was also popular because it was broken)

edit..Yeah I was not reading gud.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 04:04 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

Wait what? I wasn't even aware FC air was being run.

I was referring to Wielder's Strike.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

12 Aug 2007 at 04:24 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by traiur

Also. The Rt's chanelling spells are basically just an attempt to create another ele class.....so there is absolutely no reason why they can't have the same "lets make them ponder about their build" modifications that the ele's have.

1. attempt to make another ele class.... with half the energy.
2. rit attacks are still weaker than ele stuff.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

12 Aug 2007 at 04:32 - 24

Funny, I wasn't aware the skill called Wielder's Strike did 1395 damage. oh.... right..... IT DIDN'T. did't have armor penetration, either... still doesn't on both points.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 05:06 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

Funny, I wasn't aware the skill called Wielder's Strike did 1395 damage. oh.... right..... IT DIDN'T. did't have armor penetration, either... still doesn't on both points.

1395 Lightning damage = 5 rits casting Spirit Rift on you and Ancestor's Rage on the guy next to you. Per-player it's 279. Can anyone other class do that much damage hitting simultaneously? ..... no. Overpowered.

Armor penetration doesn't matter when pre-nerf Wielder's+Burn did more than Orb+Strike to a 60AL and fell short on a 100AL by only 3 damage, while costing half as much and taking half as much time to cast the first damage packet. The modern Rift+Rage spike did even more, case closed. Oh yeah, this is also on a character with good healing capability AND a free secondary too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

1. attempt to make another ele class.... with half the energy.

Mesmers can figure out how to run exhaustion skills, even Warriors can, and it isn't particularly difficult to run when most of your abilities cost 5 or 10 energy.

Quote:

2. rit attacks are still weaker than ele stuff.

They're also less expensive.

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

12 Aug 2007 at 05:09 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

That's because you don't have a button labelled "kill player" that removes one of the spikers. Ritspike in particular has powerful healing on SEVEN PLAYERS, and a hard rez on FIVE. This is not PvE where you can just pile your whole team on the monk or whoever and expect a kill. Especially when they've all got Vital Weapon on.

Now where did I say anything about insta kill or even killing the player. All I said was stopping that intial spike. L2READ. Maybe if you werent one of those sheep you might have realized what I said. As it seems you could learn a few things from PvE. But nice try.

Miral

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Hell. AKA Phoenix, AZ

The Gear Trick [GEAR]

W/A

12 Aug 2007 at 05:09 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

1395 Lightning damage = 5 rits casting Spirit Rift on you and Ancestor's Rage on the guy next to you. Armor penetration doesn't matter when pre-nerf Wielder's+Burn did more than Orb+Strike to a 60AL and fell short on a 100AL by only 3 damage, while costing half as much and taking half as much time to cast the first damage packet. The modern Rift+Rage spike did even more, case closed. Oh yeah, this is also on a character with good healing capability AND a free secondary too.

Mesmers can figure out how to run exhaustion skills, even Warriors can, and it isn't particularly difficult to run when most of your abilities cost 5 or 10 energy.

They're also less expensive.

so fix spiking in general. make it so that in PvP you can't be hit by the same spell twice in a 1 second window. wow, spike builds killed.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 05:18 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Now where did I say anything about insta kill or even killing the player.

Considering the quote you were responding to was suggesting just "smacking down one of the spikers", that seems to imply killing them. Balanced does have tools to deal with it, disrupting the spike is not one of the more feasible ones, because it was 1-sec and 3/4-sec, and the necro's got Spell Breaker on them.

My point is that it's far easier said than done. If it were that easy to just shut down even a single player, most people would probably be using whatever trick that entails to train enemy monks to death in seconds. Since we know that doesn't really work that well, how do you suggest putting a dent in a 7-healer team?

Quote:

As it seems you could learn a few things from PvE.

Thanks for the laugh.

Quote:

so fix spiking in general. make it so that in PvP you can't be hit by the same spell twice in a 1 second window.

Good idea, adding clunky counter-intuitive mechanics is so much better than actually fixing overpowered skills.

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

12 Aug 2007 at 05:18 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Now where did I say anything about insta kill or even killing the player. All I said was stopping that intial spike. L2READ. Maybe if you werent one of those sheep you might have realized what I said. As it seems you could learn a few things from PvE. But nice try.

Forgive him for thinking you meant that since the post you quoted specifically stated that to stop the spike, "smack down one of their players". So if you don't want to kill them, how do you propose stopping their spike? Pre-protting doesn't work, and catching the spike is almost impossible, so what do you do, Mr. Pro PvP? All it seems you're really pro at is flaming and attempting to discuss things you're clueless about.

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

12 Aug 2007 at 05:22 - 30

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You mean the overpowered "hi, we're going to wait here and you're going to get KDed, interrupt, and prot-stripped if you attempt to attack us" build? Uh.... good riddance?

Yes as opposed to an assassin, warrior, or Necro build who can do the same thing even faster in some cases. Whats your point?

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I would say that this is not quite correct. The exhaustion on the ele spells was there so that the OTHER classes couldn't run skills like meteor without thinking twice about it.

Think about what you just said... thats right... you just helped prove my point. Exhaustion was for some of the Elementalist skills for a reason. Think about it some more.

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The exhaustion on the spirits barely effects the rt (yes I play rt and have played spirit spammer) the exhaustion from a spell is over before the spell recharges in the case of binding rituals. So that is just to (once again) make classes ponder their build instead of just packing it full of all these skills and not learning how to manage energy.

I'm sorry to inform you but yes it does have an effect on the Rit, Ive tested several builds only to discover what I thought was correct on paper. You need to look at this in the total % of effective energy available in comparison to an Elementalist of equal level. Try running a fast casting Air Mesmer with two exhaustive spells. Even with the Mesmers great E management skills you begin to realize just how severely limiting exhaustion is on classes not meant to handle it. Classes with energy between 45-55.

As far as energy maintaining energy for three high cost 25E spirits was easy thanks to some great E management skills in the channeling attribute. Given the time it took to re charge the spells you can be up and casting again in 45 seconds having all three spirits up again in 15 seconds. That is good E management. You cannot manage your exhaustion with E management you can only wait for it to go away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh
They nerf that skills that promote skill-less play.

Define skill-less play? Anyone can run a 8 skill bar and kite. There is more skill involved in forming a team then running skills.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 05:29 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Yes as opposed to an assassin, warrior, or Necro build who can do the same thing even faster in some cases. Whats your point?

..... huh? Please link me this Assassin build which is randomly KDing, interrupting, and prot-stripping their opponents every couple seconds, all at the same time, while continuing to heal teammates or spike.

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Define skill-less play? Anyone can run a 8 skill bar and kite. There is more skill involved in forming a team then running skills.

Pushing the Spirit Rift button when you hear "THREE!" on Ventrilo, clicking a box in your party window, and pushing the Ancestor's Rage button 3 seconds later. Repeat until you can shoot a neon bambi out of your torso.

Dumping fire-and-forget spirits that cause huge amounts of annoyance with little to no coordination required: Just don't put them so close that AOE blows them up.

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Try running a fast casting Air Mesmer with two exhaustive spells. Even with the Mesmers great E management skills you begin to realize just how severely limiting exhaustion is on classes not meant to handle it. Classes with energy between 45-55.

Try running an air ELEMENTALIST with two exhaustion skills and you're going to feel the pain as well. It's just an issue of when. You can not keep casting exhaustion shit faster than you recover, period, you need to pace it no matter which class you're running it on. Generally speaking, if your strategy involves more than one exhaustion-causing skill, you need to revise it. Anyone who played an ele, or Shock Axe, or Me/E with Gale figured this stuff out a long time ago. Even high amounts of exhaustion can be temporarily mitigated with a high-energy swap on other casters, aside from that, unless you're riding the top of your energy bar and need to dump it all quickly, light exhaustion barely matters.

neoflame

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Aug 2007 at 05:34 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Yes as opposed to an assassin, warrior, or Necro build who can do the same thing even faster in some cases. Whats your point?

I'm pretty sure no assassin, warrior, or necro build knocks down, interrupts, and disenchants every two seconds at the same time.

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You need to look at this in the total % of effective energy available in comparison to an Elementalist of equal level.

Limiting my discussion to the spirits, exhaustion on Anguish/Wanderlust/Dissonance/Disenchantment basically changed them so that you could only carry one at a time (if you carry more, exhaustion will catch up with you very quickly), but improved them for builds carrying only one at a time (because of lower energy costs and recharges, which allow you to occasionally cast every 20 seconds instead of 30 if you needed to.) Overall this is good for the game because it weakens spirit farm builds (which was boring to play against, skill-less to run, and quite frankly needed to die), while encouraging diversification (i.e. builds that run a few spirits and then random other stuff, say Restoration) as well as encouraging skill (e.g. making you decide whether or not you should eat the extra exhaustion to cast another Dissonance before 30 seconds.)

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Define skill-less play?

Play that could be imitated at approximately the same level of effectiveness by a trivial bot. Cast Boon of Creation when it's down, rez when able, and other times cast spirits on recharge, moving a few feet between casts? Sounds pretty trivial to me.

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

12 Aug 2007 at 05:51 - 33

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..... huh? Please link me this Assassin build which is randomly KDing, interrupting, and prot-stripping their opponents every couple seconds, all at the same time, while continuing to heal teammates or spike.

I'm sorry I thought you were aware an assassin could Knockdown, Interrupt, strip an enchant, spike kill then teleport away virtually unharmed then rinse repeat? Oh thats right I don't use builds from PvX, I RTFM and use my own builds accordingly. But I'll give you a hint how to take down one of those spirits, use a decoy then use an AOE. You kill the creature faster then most spamming rits can get it back up. This is why many balanced builds can beat a Rit Spike team. They think outside the box and usually don't use PvX.

I'm shocked... nothing personal but I will let you figure this one out for yourself. Its like when people asked me how in the world am I maintaining 6 25 E cost spirits with virtually no energy downtime. There is more to spirit spamming than spamming the spirits there is timing involved and the right mix of E management skills combined with the right timing to cast that 5 seconds needed to get my spirit up without being interrupted. Plus you need to have those spirits up and running in 60 seconds again. This usually only gives me time to watch the battle unfold from my radar screen while I'm fulfilling my duty to my team.

No offense again but I don't share my PvP builds, they only get nerfed eventually. And just as another hint the team build is what counts not the individual skill bar. Unless you factor in exhaustion then your skill bar counts.

Hong Kong Evil

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

Rt/R

12 Aug 2007 at 06:00 - 34

why not make a rule that only so called 'balanced teams' are allowed in HA and GvG?
players find a way to win with necros, then necros are nerfed, when players find a way to win with rit team, then rits are nerfed

i feel boring to see "balenced team" all the time

the true overpowered class is monk, you see monks all the times and they are not replaceable, the most overpowered skill is LoD, all teams have this skill

Voltar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2006

My dog let's me crash at her place.

POB

R/

12 Aug 2007 at 06:11 - 35

Yeah, I can't say that I've ever run Rt bars with more than one of the recently-exhausting spells. As a matter of fact, I'd stopped trying to use spirit rift at all shortly after making my Rt (and made a pre-"Spirit-Spammer" spirit-spamming build which greased the wheels greatly and used none of the exhausting skills...maybe the occassional dissonance).

I really wish I could give first-hand experience on the Rt-spike groups but there's no way to get fame if you don't already have it. That's the biggest problem with HA as far as I can see.

As for the issue of favor...didn't Anet have Kormir say in the last cutscene of NF, "F the gods. This is our game now," or something like that? shouldn't we pass that along to the actual game? This new system is (at best) just as lame as the old one.

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

12 Aug 2007 at 06:13 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Now where did I say anything about insta kill or even killing the player. All I said was stopping that intial spike. L2READ. Maybe if you werent one of those sheep you might have realized what I said. As it seems you could learn a few things from PvE. But nice try.

It seems like you think you know more about beating Rit Spike than those who used to play against it every day. So tell me, given a build of your choosing (details are up to you, as long as it is specced to beat other teams on different maps), tell me exactly how you beat Rit Spike 1v1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I'm sorry I thought you were aware an assassin could Knockdown, Interrupt, strip an enchant, spike kill then teleport away virtually unharmed then rinse repeat? Oh thats right I don't use builds from PvX, I RTFM and use my own builds accordingly. But I'll give you a hint how to take down one of those spirits, use a decoy then use an AOE. You kill the creature faster then most spamming rits can get it back up. This is why many balanced builds can beat a Rit Spike team. They think outside the box and usually don't use PvX.

A good N/A spike is unprottable, uninfusable, and unkitable. The spike does almost 1400 damage, they strip every enchantment off you, and your health bar goes from 100% down to 0% in about 1/4 of a second, not to mention it's AoE. Are you seriously comparing a Rift spike to one Assassin's 1-2-3-4-5-6 combo? Something tells me you've never seen a Rift spike before, let alone played against one.

Hollow Gein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Menos Espadas

N/

12 Aug 2007 at 06:27 - 37

LOL...imagine that. Me with a Rit/Mes/Nec trying to stop a melee attacker from getting close to me so he can bleed, deep wound, and cripple me. Maybe we should just cast one spell at a time so you can knock out a few attacks before we cast again.

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

12 Aug 2007 at 06:41 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No the point is no matter if your spike does 15 million damage and it gets stopped during its cast its worthless. I already gave 1 character build, but it was to hard to handle for most people. Now as far as stopping spikes as in learning from PvE try DoA and RoT on HM. You'll learn fast enough.

You mean your build with choking gas, barrage, ignite arrows, and nightmare weapon? Yeah, that's definitely pro enough to take into HA.

Stopping spikes in PvE is a matter of stopping them before they even start usually, with something along the lines of Prot Spirit or Shelter/Union. Comparing the mindless AI of PvE to other players in PvP is retarded, just stop.

If you can interrupt enough of the rits to stop anyone from dying, you must have a team with a good number of interrupt rangers/mesmers with great reflexes. If that's the case, where's your real damage? Where's your counter to melee-heavy builds? What's to stop you from crumbling to pretty much any other build?

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

12 Aug 2007 at 06:54 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

All 3 at once woot.

No the point is no matter if your spike does 15 million damage and it gets stopped during its cast its worthless. I already gave 1 character build, but it was to hard to handle for most people. Now as far as stopping spikes as in learning from PvE try DoA and RoT on HM. You'll learn fast enough.

Try reading Riotgear's post again. It deals with disrupting the spike, and how it is a lot easier said than done.

I want to ask you something, have you actually played against Rit Spike before? If so, you should be able to tell me exactly what you did to beat them - "stop the spike" isn't enough information.

Riotgear

has 3 pips of HP regen.

Join Date: Aug 2006

The Objective Is More [Cash]

W/

12 Aug 2007 at 07:00 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

But the skills weren't overpowered, the tactic was. that's the whole point. get it now, or do i need to make a paint by number coloring book?

Compare Wielder's Strike to any skill with similar payload, you'll find it was quite out of line. Here's a quick challenge for you: Go count the number of skills that do over 100 damage, of any sort, with a cast time shorter than 2 seconds. Now, go count the number of skills that do over 100 damage that cost 5 energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I'm sorry I thought you were aware an assassin could Knockdown, Interrupt, strip an enchant, spike kill then teleport away virtually unharmed then rinse repeat?

Once every 20 seconds. Spirit farms de-prot, interrupt and KD more like every 2.

Quote:

But I'll give you a hint how to take down one of those spirits, use a decoy then use an AOE.

Throwing out AOE just to kill a spirit means you just put another one of your abilities on cooldown just to get on equal footing. Time spent killing spirits is time spent not making any progress while the rest of their team takes you apart. Time not spent killing spirits is time spent getting KDed and interrupted repeatedly.

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No offense again but I don't share my PvP builds, they only get nerfed eventually.

Considering PvP builds are not exactly top-secret material once they've seen use, I find it more likely that you don't have such a build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hong Kong Evil

why not make a rule that only so called 'balanced teams' are allowed in HA and GvG?
players find a way to win with necros, then necros are nerfed, when players find a way to win with rit team, then rits are nerfed

i feel boring to see "balenced team" all the time

the true overpowered class is monk, you see monks all the times and they are not replaceable, the most overpowered skill is LoD, all teams have this skill

Balanced is preferred by the playerbase because it is a flexible build that gains the vast majority of its strength from intelligent play. Ritspike, hexway, zergway, etc. tend to be discouraged because they allow clueless idiots to beat seasoned veterans, negating the entire "skill-based" pitch of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No the point is no matter if your spike does 15 million damage and it gets stopped during its cast its worthless.

I'm still waiting to hear your awesome tactic to stop 5 people from using 1-second-cast abilities. Even if you disrupt two casts, you're looking at over 1100 lightning damage.

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I already gave 1 character build, but it was to hard to handle for most people.

Actually no, you didn't. Unless you mean that absurd suggestion to put Balanced Stance on everybody.

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Now as far as stopping spikes as in learning from PvE try DoA and RoT on HM. You'll learn fast enough.

Mobs in PvE do not sync-spike with enchantment stack strips. If you think stopping sporadic, uncoordinated and generally-random abilities that do stupid amounts of damage individually is anything like PvP spiking, you're deluded. PvP players coordinate spikes with removal, the smarter spikes would use feints and good calls to preempt or misdirect prot attempts anyway. Mobs don't care if they see the Spirit Bond face pop up, they'll keep throwing shit at them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

fixed, since everyone seems to think ritspike is no skill mindless play

Caster spike builds tend to be no skill mindless play by definition: Almost all of the coordination is being handled by one person, the caller. Five of the eight people on the team are just performing extremely simple routines.

In the case of ritspike: Shit a spirit, cast MB&S on someone if they're getting beat up, cast FOMF on someone if they die, do some other simple task [i.e. cast Rend instead of Rage when asked, spam Vital Weapon on everyone, etc.], and when the spike is called on vent, hit T, push the spirit rift button, count to three, then click the caller and push the Ancestor's Rage button.