While I am mostly content with the current ritualist design, I thought I would provide a similar but alternate system in response to the idea that the ritualist has a poor design. I have noticed myself that the ritualist has a lot of holes in its design, especially with spirits.
BEWARE: These posts are long.
First, the idea of using charges in spirits has been suggested by many posters. I have just systematized the idea.
The goal of this idea is to add more strategy to the ritualist system without [I]deviating largely from its current set up. The system I am proposing is almost identical to the current system; the key difference is how channeling utilizes [I]the charge system.
Now, I know it is unlikely any redesigns can be done at this point in time. I am content with the current health based system.
What are these charges and how do they work?
---> counters will be discussed a bit later
Instead of using a health based system, ritualist spirits shall use charges. Charges are nothing more than a specified number of times a spirit acts before dying. For example: Anguish has 8 attacks before it is destroyed. Charges completely replace the health of a spirit, but spirit durations are still applicable. All spirits become immune to all forms of damage outside of specific skills. Spawning Power and Communing increase these charge amounts.
Spawning Power: Every 3 ranks gives an additional charge to spirits. For each rank of spawning power, weapon spells you cast last 2% longer.
Communing and channeling influences the respective spirit's charges and duration similar to how they influence spirit health currently.
--> There can only be a maximum of 6 spirits in any given area.
Forcing a maximum of 6 spirits within any given area removes the spirit forest balance issue, but still allows 2 or more ritualists to work in tangent.
The goal of the skill changes is to increase the tactical sophistication of the ritualist class.
Spirits now follow called targets.
OPTIONAL: A new interface window shows current spirits controlled and their remaining charges.
Skill Changes using 16 attribute level
Spirits
Anguish 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a spirit. This Spirit's attacks deal 5...21 damage and deals double damage to Hexed foes. This Spirit dies after 15-47 seconds. This Spirit has 5-8 charges.
Disenchantment 10 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a spirit. This spirit deals 5-21 damage and anyone struck by its attack loses one enchantment. This spirit dies after 10-38 seconds. This Spirit has 3-5 charges.
Displacement 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a spirit. All party members within its range have a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, this spirit loses one charge. This Spirit has 5-8 charges.
Dissonance 10 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a spirit. This spirit deals 5-21 damage and anyone struck by its attack is interrupted. This Spirit dies after 10 - 26 seconds. This spirit has 3-5 charges.
Earthbind 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a spirit. All non-Spirit foes knocked down within its range are knocked down for at least 3 seconds.Everytime this occurs, the spirit loses a charge. This Spirit dies after 15...45 seconds. This spirit has 3-5 charges.
Pain 5 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a Spirit. This Spirit's attacks deal 5...32 damage. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds. This spirit has 5-8 charges.
Restoration 10 energy, 3 cast, 45 recharge
Create a Spirit. When this Spirit dies, all Party members in the area are resurrected with 5...41% Health and zero Energy. This Spirit dies after 30 seconds. This spirit has 1-3 charges. For each ressurrection skill used within the spirit's area, one charge is expended and all allies in the area are healed for 50-100 health.
Shadowsong, 10 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a Spirit. The Spirit's attacks cause Blindness for 1...6 second[s]. This Spirit dies after 30 seconds. This spirit has 3-5 charges.
Shelter, 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range cannot lose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack. When this Spirit prevents damage, it loses a charge. This spirit lasts 30...62 seconds. This spirit has 5-8 charges.
Soothing, 15 energy, 3 cast, 60 recharge
Create a Spirit. All foes within its range take twice as long to build adrenaline. This Spirit dies after 15... 47 seconds. This spirit has 3 charges.
Union, 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a Spirit. Whenever a non-Spirit ally in its range takes damage, that damage is reduced by 15 and the Spirit loses a charge. This Spirit dies after 30...62 seconds. This spirit has 5-8 charges.
Wanderlust 10 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a Spirit. Whenever this Spirit's attack hits a foe, that foe is knocked down and the Spirit loses a charge. This Spirit dies after 30...62 seconds. This spirit has 3-5 charges.
Bloodsong 5 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a Spirit who dies after 30...158 seconds. Attacks by that Spirit steal up to 5...26 Health. This Spirit has 5-8 charges; for every 100 health stolen, the spirit regains 1 charge.
Destruction 5 energy, 3 cast, 15 recharge
Create a level Spirit that dies after 30 seconds. When this spirit dies, all foes in the area take 1...4 damage for each second the spirit was alive. This spirit has 3-5 charges.
Life 10 energy, 3 cast, 20 recharge
Create a Spirit. When this Spirit dies, all non-Spirit allies within its range are healed for 1...6 Health for each second this Spirit was alive. This Spirit dies after 20 seconds. This spirit has 5 charges.
Recovery, 15 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a Spirit. Conditions on allies within range of this Spirit expire 20...44% faster. This Spirit dies after 30...62 seconds. This spirit has 3 charges
Recuperation 15 energy, 3 cast, 45 recharge
Create a Spirit. Non-Spirit allies within its range gain +1...3 Health regeneration. This Spirit dies after 15...47 seconds. This spirit has 4 charges.
Preservation 15 energy 3 cast, 45 recharge
Create a Spirit. Every 10 seconds, this spirit heals all party members within its area for 10-122 health and loses a charge. This Spirit dies after 60 seconds and has 3 charges.
Empowerment 5 energy, 3 cast, 30 recharge
Create a Spirit. All allies within its range holding an item gain 15...47 maximum Health and 10 maximum Energy. This Spirit dies after 15...51 seconds. This spirit has 5 charges.
Channeling spells
Ancestor's Rage 10 energy, 3/4 cast, 8 recharge
All foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 30...110 lightning damage and one spirit loses one charge. If no spirits are within earshot of the target ally, this skill takes 30 seconds to recharge.
Clamor of Souls 10 energy, 1 cast, 12 recharge
Target foe and nearby foe is struck for 10...122 lightning damage. For each foe struck, nearby spirits regain 1 charge.
Essence Strike 5 energy, 1 cast, 8 recharge
Target foe is struck for 15...63 lightning damage. If any spirits are within earshot, you gain 1...7 energy and closest spirit loses 1 charge. If no spirits are within earshot, no energy is gained.
Gaze from Beyond 5 energy, 2 cast, 10 recharge
The spirit nearest you loses 1-3 charges. Target foe is struck for 41 lightning damage for each charge lost. If no spirits are within earshot, no damage is dealt.
Spirit Boon Strike 10 energy, 2 cast, 20 recharge
Target foe is struck for 10...106 lightning damage, and all allied spirits near you regain 1 charge.
Spirit Burn 5 energy, 1 cast, 6 recharge
Target foe is struck for 5...53 lightning damage. If a spirit within earshot loses 1 charge, Spirit Burn deals +10...44 damage.
Spirit Siphon 5 energy, 1/4 cast, 3 recharge
Target Spirit loses 1-3 charges. You gain 5 energy for each charge lost.
Signets
Signet of Binding 1 cast, 15 recharge
Target allied Spirit gains +1-4 charges. After 30 seconds, that creature is destroyed.
Signet of Creation 2 cast, 10 recharge
All animated creatures within earshot gain +1...6 Health regeneration. All spirits within earshot gain 2 charges. After 30 seconds, those spirits and creatures are destroyed.
Restoration
-If a spirit is within earshot, all restoration spells heal for +30-50 more health and the nearest spirit loses a charge. Many Ritualist skills, especially those related to healing, life stealing and defense, become more effective with higher Restoration Magic.
Spirit Transfer 10 energy, 1/4 cast, 5 recharge
The spirit nearest to you loses 1-2 charges. Target ally is healed for 132 for each charge lost.
Project: Refining the Ritualist Design
Calen The Civl
Calen The Civl
Immune to all damage? These skills are overpowered!
Without proper counters, yes damage immunity would be overpowered. However, because the spirit is, well, a spirit it makes little sense that a warrior with an axe can "kill" it. Replacing the health points of spirits with charges removes the possiblity to damage spirits in the typical way. These skills could be overpowered and reintroduce the ritspike without counters that deal generic damage and hold the spirits in check. Ritualists were originally battlefield controllers that were balanced by lack of mobility. This charge system requires a ritualist to manage their spirit charges much like other classes manage their energy.
The goal of the counter skills are to be generic enough to be useful in balanced groups but effective enough to balance the ritualist and make the ritualist player think about their tactics.
Counters
Banish 5 energy, 1 cast, 10 recharge
Target foe takes 20...58 holy damage. This spell does double damage to summoned creatures. If the target is a spirit, that spirit loses all charges, its controller takes 20-58 damage and this skill takes 10 seconds longer to recharge.
Ray of Judgment 15 energy, 1 cast. 30 recharge
Elite Spell. All your skills except Smiting Prayers are disabled for 10 seconds. Target foe and nearby foes take 30...110 holy damage. Animated undead struck by Ray of Judgment are set on fire for 3...8 seconds. Spirits struck by Ray of Judgment lose 2-5 charges.
Signet of Judgment 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite Signet. Target foe is knocked down. That foe and all adjacent foes take 15...63 holy damage. All spirits struck with this skill lose 2 charges.
Spiritual Pain 10 energy, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Target foe and nearby foes take 15-79 damage, all spirits within earshot lose 1-2 charges. For each charge lost on each spirit, nearby foes take 10 extra damage.
Unnatural Signet 1 cast, 30 recharge
Target foes takes 15-79 damage. If that foe was a spirit, that spirit loses 1-3 charges.
Consume Soul 10 energy, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite spell. Target Spirit is destroyed. All foes in the area receive 15 damage for each charge on that spirit.
Gaze of Fury 5 energy, 2 cast, 20 recharge
Destroy target Spirit and create a level Spirit of Fury. This spirit has 2-4 charges and does 5-21 damage. If this spirit strikes an enemy spirit, that spirit loses 1-2 charges.
This Spirit dies after 30...62 seconds.
Fear Me! 4 adren
Shout. All nearby foes lose 1-4 energy. If the foe is a spirit, it loses 1-2 charges.
Nature's Renewal 5 energy, 5 cast, 60 recharge
Create a level 1...11 Spirit. For 30...126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast, and it costs twice as much Energy to maintain Enchantments. Spirits have 1-3 less charges. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.
A few other counter skills may need to be added as well.
Caretaker's Charge will need to be renamed to Caretaker's Burden to reduce confusion.
Conclusion
Example 1:
Pain has 8 charges at 16 communing. Spawning Power at 12 will add 4 charges to the spirit (1 charge every 3 levels). This gives Pain 12 attacks before it dies. This is pretty typical to the longevity of Pain in the current system and even increases its attack amount when compared how fragile spirits are to attacks in the current system. However, the player will need to be aware that many skills reduce a spirit's charge amount as well.
Example 2:
At 16 Channeling and 12 Spawning, Destruction would have 9 charges (5+4 charges). That allows the ritualist to get off 9 charge consuming attacks in 30 seconds before the spirit dies. This is not a limiting factor until that spirit is attacked by anti spirit skills. This would limit the amount of channeling damage that ritualist would be able to do.
Spawning Power should also have several charge dependant skills.
An ideal counter Scenario using Superior Rune levels:
6 Spirits are up and 8 ritualists are within earshot of those spirits in order to spike. Spirits all have 12 charges for simplicity.
1. Spiritual Pain is used to attack one of the ritualists. That ritualist takes 79 damage + all ritualists take 120 damage. (6 spirits x 2 charges lost on each spirit x 10 damage ).
2. Consume Soul is used on a Spirit with 10 charges on it. That spirit dies (5 spirits left with 10 charges) all the ritualists are hit with 150 damage (15 x 10 charges).
Total Damage across the entire party: 270
3. Gaze of Fury is used on another Spirit. (4 spirits left with 10 charges).
4. Unnatural Signet is used on a spirit (3 Spirits, 10 charges, 1 spirit 7 charges.
On the ritspike team, heals will be used in addition to other skills, further reducing the spirit charges.
This system would introduce a new tactic to the class and better balance spirit forests and channeling. Ritspike would be available but not overpowered with the limitation of 6 spirits and the charge mananagement necessary on the skills. Counters for spirits have more power but are still generic enough to be useful against other builds (perhaps some of them are overpowered). The charge system would allow the revival of the ritual lord defensive build but balance it by making the spirits more fragile to being destroyed and adding to the 6 spirit limit.
Ritspike could become viable again as a somewhat balanced build. Six spirits limit the Spirit forest problem and a group of 8 channelers would quickly exhaust the charges of those 6 spirits. (I am not a ritspike player. I just dislike seeing any type of build be killed instead of just toned down).
Phew, long post. So what do you think? I am sure many of the skills I have listed need adjusting so feel free to adjust and explain the reasoning behind it.
Without proper counters, yes damage immunity would be overpowered. However, because the spirit is, well, a spirit it makes little sense that a warrior with an axe can "kill" it. Replacing the health points of spirits with charges removes the possiblity to damage spirits in the typical way. These skills could be overpowered and reintroduce the ritspike without counters that deal generic damage and hold the spirits in check. Ritualists were originally battlefield controllers that were balanced by lack of mobility. This charge system requires a ritualist to manage their spirit charges much like other classes manage their energy.
The goal of the counter skills are to be generic enough to be useful in balanced groups but effective enough to balance the ritualist and make the ritualist player think about their tactics.
Counters
Banish 5 energy, 1 cast, 10 recharge
Target foe takes 20...58 holy damage. This spell does double damage to summoned creatures. If the target is a spirit, that spirit loses all charges, its controller takes 20-58 damage and this skill takes 10 seconds longer to recharge.
Ray of Judgment 15 energy, 1 cast. 30 recharge
Elite Spell. All your skills except Smiting Prayers are disabled for 10 seconds. Target foe and nearby foes take 30...110 holy damage. Animated undead struck by Ray of Judgment are set on fire for 3...8 seconds. Spirits struck by Ray of Judgment lose 2-5 charges.
Signet of Judgment 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite Signet. Target foe is knocked down. That foe and all adjacent foes take 15...63 holy damage. All spirits struck with this skill lose 2 charges.
Spiritual Pain 10 energy, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Target foe and nearby foes take 15-79 damage, all spirits within earshot lose 1-2 charges. For each charge lost on each spirit, nearby foes take 10 extra damage.
Unnatural Signet 1 cast, 30 recharge
Target foes takes 15-79 damage. If that foe was a spirit, that spirit loses 1-3 charges.
Consume Soul 10 energy, 1 cast, 20 recharge
Elite spell. Target Spirit is destroyed. All foes in the area receive 15 damage for each charge on that spirit.
Gaze of Fury 5 energy, 2 cast, 20 recharge
Destroy target Spirit and create a level Spirit of Fury. This spirit has 2-4 charges and does 5-21 damage. If this spirit strikes an enemy spirit, that spirit loses 1-2 charges.
This Spirit dies after 30...62 seconds.
Fear Me! 4 adren
Shout. All nearby foes lose 1-4 energy. If the foe is a spirit, it loses 1-2 charges.
Nature's Renewal 5 energy, 5 cast, 60 recharge
Create a level 1...11 Spirit. For 30...126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast, and it costs twice as much Energy to maintain Enchantments. Spirits have 1-3 less charges. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.
A few other counter skills may need to be added as well.
Caretaker's Charge will need to be renamed to Caretaker's Burden to reduce confusion.
Conclusion
Example 1:
Pain has 8 charges at 16 communing. Spawning Power at 12 will add 4 charges to the spirit (1 charge every 3 levels). This gives Pain 12 attacks before it dies. This is pretty typical to the longevity of Pain in the current system and even increases its attack amount when compared how fragile spirits are to attacks in the current system. However, the player will need to be aware that many skills reduce a spirit's charge amount as well.
Example 2:
At 16 Channeling and 12 Spawning, Destruction would have 9 charges (5+4 charges). That allows the ritualist to get off 9 charge consuming attacks in 30 seconds before the spirit dies. This is not a limiting factor until that spirit is attacked by anti spirit skills. This would limit the amount of channeling damage that ritualist would be able to do.
Spawning Power should also have several charge dependant skills.
An ideal counter Scenario using Superior Rune levels:
6 Spirits are up and 8 ritualists are within earshot of those spirits in order to spike. Spirits all have 12 charges for simplicity.
1. Spiritual Pain is used to attack one of the ritualists. That ritualist takes 79 damage + all ritualists take 120 damage. (6 spirits x 2 charges lost on each spirit x 10 damage ).
2. Consume Soul is used on a Spirit with 10 charges on it. That spirit dies (5 spirits left with 10 charges) all the ritualists are hit with 150 damage (15 x 10 charges).
Total Damage across the entire party: 270
3. Gaze of Fury is used on another Spirit. (4 spirits left with 10 charges).
4. Unnatural Signet is used on a spirit (3 Spirits, 10 charges, 1 spirit 7 charges.
On the ritspike team, heals will be used in addition to other skills, further reducing the spirit charges.
This system would introduce a new tactic to the class and better balance spirit forests and channeling. Ritspike would be available but not overpowered with the limitation of 6 spirits and the charge mananagement necessary on the skills. Counters for spirits have more power but are still generic enough to be useful against other builds (perhaps some of them are overpowered). The charge system would allow the revival of the ritual lord defensive build but balance it by making the spirits more fragile to being destroyed and adding to the 6 spirit limit.
Ritspike could become viable again as a somewhat balanced build. Six spirits limit the Spirit forest problem and a group of 8 channelers would quickly exhaust the charges of those 6 spirits. (I am not a ritspike player. I just dislike seeing any type of build be killed instead of just toned down).
Phew, long post. So what do you think? I am sure many of the skills I have listed need adjusting so feel free to adjust and explain the reasoning behind it.
Quicksilver Switch-Blade
Well, one thing is for sure, it would have the possibility of making some of the GW:EN skills more useful (Spirit Leech Aura being the main one, agony and rejuvination being the others, though questionable). It could also make some spirits (that hurt themselves) not as bad.
Though Im not sure skills would need to be changed to counter this (spirits would still have vulnerability to spells and nukes which is what the changes you suggested would accomodate).
The limit of spirits to an area might be overkill too.
Instead of using a charge system, they could just use energy which they wouldnt normally use (and as far as I know, not many take spirit siphon, I could be easily mistaken though) and if they dont have any energy, their effect goes away or something like that.
It is an interesting idea though
Though Im not sure skills would need to be changed to counter this (spirits would still have vulnerability to spells and nukes which is what the changes you suggested would accomodate).
The limit of spirits to an area might be overkill too.
Instead of using a charge system, they could just use energy which they wouldnt normally use (and as far as I know, not many take spirit siphon, I could be easily mistaken though) and if they dont have any energy, their effect goes away or something like that.
It is an interesting idea though
Dr Strangelove
Um, you worked really hard on this but the whole "charge" concept is kinda bad. Your method where an entire set of skills will be reworked to be the only counters to spirits promotes a rock paper scissors mentality that is really, really not fun to play with. At any rate, it's adding a nonintuitive mechanic to the game to fix something that really isn't broken.
Sazgo
Your suggested changes to spirits such as shelter still dont fix them they are still kinda worthless and last a couple of seconds in HM or vs large groups.
My opinion would be that shelter should either last much longer but have a really low recharge time and keep a high energy cost/cast time so that a ritualist could devote himself and all his time in keeping shelter up which makes him very wanted in groups, or keep it the way it is now but lower the e cost and cast time so its basically a quick cast that prevents a few hits and isnt such a huge wasted time/energy drain as before. Displacement lasts a really short time as well but atleast with this it has a much lower castime/recharge/energy cost and is almsot worth it. Union i think is fine due to the low amount of damage the spirit takes and how much hp it has, with signet of creation its quite easy to keep it alive for a long time. Perhaps the spirits could be changed so that they are less effective but can be kept up for longer. like displacement 50% block chance.
Either this or buff spawning power much more in the way it increases spirits survivability.
I also saw someone suggest an energy drain while you keep a spirit up like with enchantments this is one solution that would allow for them to be made much stronger.
I would personally like them to just redo the way spirits work somehow so that they just dont become so useless against larger groups of enemys or vs things with fast attacks speeds/aoe damage etc. The spirits shouldnt lose much of their effectiveness just because you play on hardmode no other classes skills suffer like this.
Im happy with how long spirits last on normalmode and any hm areas with small groups but when i gimp myself and take 2 sup runes i dont expect to see shelter/displacement die as soon as it comes out of the ground making me a wasted group spot and monk should of been taken instead.
I dont know why they havent been balanced yet as the defensive spirits just plain suck compared to bonder/prot monk skills.
My opinion would be that shelter should either last much longer but have a really low recharge time and keep a high energy cost/cast time so that a ritualist could devote himself and all his time in keeping shelter up which makes him very wanted in groups, or keep it the way it is now but lower the e cost and cast time so its basically a quick cast that prevents a few hits and isnt such a huge wasted time/energy drain as before. Displacement lasts a really short time as well but atleast with this it has a much lower castime/recharge/energy cost and is almsot worth it. Union i think is fine due to the low amount of damage the spirit takes and how much hp it has, with signet of creation its quite easy to keep it alive for a long time. Perhaps the spirits could be changed so that they are less effective but can be kept up for longer. like displacement 50% block chance.
Either this or buff spawning power much more in the way it increases spirits survivability.
I also saw someone suggest an energy drain while you keep a spirit up like with enchantments this is one solution that would allow for them to be made much stronger.
I would personally like them to just redo the way spirits work somehow so that they just dont become so useless against larger groups of enemys or vs things with fast attacks speeds/aoe damage etc. The spirits shouldnt lose much of their effectiveness just because you play on hardmode no other classes skills suffer like this.
Im happy with how long spirits last on normalmode and any hm areas with small groups but when i gimp myself and take 2 sup runes i dont expect to see shelter/displacement die as soon as it comes out of the ground making me a wasted group spot and monk should of been taken instead.
I dont know why they havent been balanced yet as the defensive spirits just plain suck compared to bonder/prot monk skills.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazgo
I dont know why they havent been balanced yet as the defensive spirits just plain suck compared to bonder/prot monk skills.
And so they should.
The direction Izzy is trying to go - and how Guild Wars should be - is to reward active play.
Sitting half a map away from your team and shitting defensive spirits takes no skill at all to do, and should not be rewarded in the same way that a decent prot monk is. Unless they make defensive spirits a more active in play style, they should always suck compared to Prot.
IMO, Shelter ought to be 'nerfed' the same way that Dissonance or Anguish were, to make it more viable as an active play skill.
But before they do that, Communing actually needs to do... well... something.
And not spirit-shitting, 'cause that sucks for the game.
The direction Izzy is trying to go - and how Guild Wars should be - is to reward active play.
Sitting half a map away from your team and shitting defensive spirits takes no skill at all to do, and should not be rewarded in the same way that a decent prot monk is. Unless they make defensive spirits a more active in play style, they should always suck compared to Prot.
IMO, Shelter ought to be 'nerfed' the same way that Dissonance or Anguish were, to make it more viable as an active play skill.
But before they do that, Communing actually needs to do... well... something.
And not spirit-shitting, 'cause that sucks for the game.
Sazgo
Theres absolutely no 'skill' difference between being a bonder and a spirit rit. Having to see who lost the bond is not any harder to play than looking at which spirit died, and player activity should have absolutely no effect on how good a skill is. Just look at searing flames, with your theory a spell like this shouldnt exist as it doesnt require a 'skilled' player to target an enemy and keep pressing the button.
Stormlord Alex
The difference is, a Bonder doesn't provide the whole team with 75% dodge chance, max 10% damage and the damage reduction of union (the old, pre-nerf Rit Lord build). The fact that spirits are non-removeable - short of killing them - as well as whatever Weapon spells the rit takes, too.
Standard enchant removers own bonders. Heck, if they were to suddenly become the new meta, we'd see multiple copies of Mirror of Disenchantment.
Where's the Mirror for spirit shitting?
And SF is fine, it's fragile and it's been nerfed. The damage output for energy investment is pretty paltry for a single ele, and it's far too energy intensive for a pack of SF to do anything useful on the side.
Mind Blast is where it's at.
Standard enchant removers own bonders. Heck, if they were to suddenly become the new meta, we'd see multiple copies of Mirror of Disenchantment.
Where's the Mirror for spirit shitting?
And SF is fine, it's fragile and it's been nerfed. The damage output for energy investment is pretty paltry for a single ele, and it's far too energy intensive for a pack of SF to do anything useful on the side.
Mind Blast is where it's at.
Sazgo
Your idea of what a ritualist is, is totally different to how they are in todays game. Spirits being unremovable is totally wrong. the spirits take alot of damage each time a player is hit. When you are dealing with groups of 6+ enemys or enemys with hardmode casttime/attack speed the spirits die after a couple of seconds which is not lnog enough to justifiy them having for exmaple 25 energy cost 5 sec casttime 45 sec recharge. At the same time they are easily killable by enemys hitting them if they are not placed far back.
Bonds dont wear off after someone is hit 5-6 times. Yes there is enchantment removal but the difference here is that when the game is switched to hardmode or youfight in a different area, they didnt give every enemy some more enchatnment removal spells so that bonds would become less effective. Theres a big reason why bonder monks are used in alot of builds and not spirit rit's.
Bonds also prevent a hell of alot of damage like spirits just harder to give the exact numbers. With life barrier halfing the damage and life bond spliting the damage and reduceing it. The energy gained from balthazars spirit allows you to cast other things such as aegis/condition removal etc. as well.
Bonds dont wear off after someone is hit 5-6 times. Yes there is enchantment removal but the difference here is that when the game is switched to hardmode or youfight in a different area, they didnt give every enemy some more enchatnment removal spells so that bonds would become less effective. Theres a big reason why bonder monks are used in alot of builds and not spirit rit's.
Bonds also prevent a hell of alot of damage like spirits just harder to give the exact numbers. With life barrier halfing the damage and life bond spliting the damage and reduceing it. The energy gained from balthazars spirit allows you to cast other things such as aegis/condition removal etc. as well.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazgo
I digress, yes - bonders own the crap outta spiritspam because, generally speaking, PvE foes don't carry enough concentrated enchant removers to beat a bonder.
2-3 Bonds getting shattered isn't really an issue when Barrier is still alive and kicking, and the Bonder can easily reapply LB in a couple of seconds.
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25 energy cost 5 sec casttime 45 sec recharge.
Which is why Shelter needs to be 'Anguished'. Say, a 5e, 3 sec cast, 20 sec recharge Shelter that carries exhaustion. In this state, it'd be more useful to a PvE rit - shorter recharge allows more coverage to deal with HM mobs, and even spammed on recharge the exhaustion wouldn't be that bad. It'd also be healthier for the PvP game, adding exhaustion to cheaper, overall more flexible spirits promotes their use as a spot-tool in active play, whilst discouraging spirit-shitting and camping, and otherwise degenerate gameplay. Calen The Civl
Spirits being immune to traditional damage is a necessity because they dont have any health at all under my system. They simply use charges much like splinter weapon or nightmare weapon have charges. However, I do realize the few skills available to counter them would lead to more build vs build mentality. That is why more skills with a spirit effect clause are necessary than I have listed. The counter list is just to get things started.
The charge system is an effort to make the class more dynamic. Just spamming spirits and forgetting about them until they recharge is not a good system. Instead the system seeks to add more interdependence to the spirits in order to add more interactivity. Since Guild Wars is headed for more active play, the ritualist needs to find a better system because spirits are passive by nature. Unless a way to handle exhaustion is added to the ritualist, I am against all forms of it just as I would be for any other caster class not designed for it. Item spells and exhaustion are not a very good mix. I have to admit, Stormlord, that your idea for Shelter has a lot of potential. It still runs into problems with the item spell mechanic lowering the energy pool, however.
Dr Strangelove
Exhaustion on spirits doesn't lead to a particularly active playstyle, since they've still got a fairly long recharge and cast time. I can't spam it now, making it 20s recharge with exhaustion means I can't spam it then, either. Exhaustion more or less means that you're limited to one exhaustion-causing spirit. Anguish, by the way, is totally worthless now. When it comes down to taking dissonance for interrupts, disenchantment for enchant hate, or anguish for a shitty version of pain, you sure as hell don't take anguish.
The key to making communing more active is leaving the spirits sort of clunky and weak by themselves, but buffing the options for spirit healing/damage reduction, like signet of binding, soul twisting, signet of creation, signet of ghostly might, spirit boon strike, etc. This should go hand on hand with buffs to some of the direct communing damage reduction spells, like dulled weapon, vital weapon (reduces the number of procs from shelter), binding chains, etc.
Quicksilver Switch-Blade
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It'd also be healthier for the PvP game, adding exhaustion to cheaper, overall more flexible spirits promotes their use as a spot-tool in active play, whilst discouraging spirit-shitting and camping, and otherwise degenerate gameplay.
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And not spirit-shitting, 'cause that sucks for the game. As long as 1/5 of the Ritualist skills are binding rituals, things like soul twisting, boon of creation, and rit lord exist, and exhaustion isn't put to most spirits (it shouldnt be on any in the first place, but thats not the point) spirit spamming will always be apart of the ritualist, deal with it.
The ritualist would need an overhaul to stop spirit spamming just because quite a few rit skills (other than rituals obviously) promote it.
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The idea is admittedly to make them as effective as monks. Simply put, most ritualist communing spirits are a waste of space. They have to be or they would be over-powered. |
Where's the Mirror for spirit shitting?
Spiritual Pain? Unnatural Signet? the only reason these are probably considered useless compared to mirror is because you dont see rits as often as you see aegis, tainted flesh necro or whatever else ppl use to put enchants all over the party, I dont really know, Im just some inexperienced PvP n00b.
frojack
They are interesting ideas but you've analyzed your micro game far too much without taking the basics (the key to what makes GW a good game) into consideration.
(disclaimer: PvP perspective here) Dropping a spirit is bad. 1) Sitting still watching a bar move up because of 3 to 5 second creation times sucks. Just like it sucks casting Meteor Shower without Glyph of Sac. It's inherently 'non-fun'. 2) Sitting still for 3 to 5 seconds means your a total dead weight. Once you've created said spirit, it can't move, and to a lesser extent, 'you' can't either (not too far anyways). Anet tried to resolve this with the 'earshot' change, but it's still a tactical ball and chain in an activity that usually resembles long distance Olympic running. Mostly the reason the Water elementalist is so valued is because they deny this 'natural' ability. Ritualists do this to themselves... 3) Taking 3 to 5 seconds to stand still to do something makes you interrupt bait, ultimately reducing whatever your trying to do to essentially a bad joke. 4) Tactics in a match change fast. What was a viable strategy 3 seconds ago, may have become the key to your downfall (for example an obvious crutch to kick). A rit dropping spirits in 3 to 5 seconds can't change tack as quickly as everyone else, and thus can't use them tactically. A spirit Ritualist essentially has to think 5-20 seconds into the future and predict whether or not his mediocre, short-lived Shelter spirit will be a boon to the team. Then he has to also think where. (More GvG but the point still stands). This is inherently impossible so his only option is saturation in the hope to make it useful somewhere down the line. Anything saturated needs to be shit or it breaks the game. If a tool is watered down heavily enough, it becomes worthless (hence why Shelter is generally crap these days). This change of yours seems to have come about by the desire to 'balance' spirits my adding more limiting factors (from looking at the skill descriptions you make them the constant use of them mandatory). This is something that Izzy has been trying to do since the creation of the class culminating with exhaustion to make them more active rather than passive (not too shabby actually but still lacking). Simple truth is, none of the proposed changes I've seen offer anything close to fixing all of the aforementioned issues for me personally, and all don't prevent spirits going against the free-form and dynamic nature of the game. In fact your system so heavily binds Ritualists to their spirits by 'killing' them for using beneficial 'conditional' skills like Essence Strike (the bread and butter e-management channeling skill) and Spirit Burn (defacto standard 'dumb' but consistent DD), that you end up required to do more dull 3-5 second creation jobs, reducing tactical viability even more. I cannot see that as a good thing... I'm not just going to call 'boo' to your idea (as counter-intuitive as I see it, it's very creative), I'll offer up something of an idea that offers another method to deal with those issues I mentioned (though not all unsurprisingly and still somewhat dubious). It's an old idea but I'll echo it again in light of the recent change to Aegis... Shelter. The reason why it is so bad right now is because it's effect is too strong to allow this skill to ever be good. It just makes the game bad. This has been proven... So let's reduce/change it's strength: Shelter 10-15, 3/4, 2 5...20 d Target ally is 'bound' to the Spirit of Shelter. While this spirit is alive, target ally cannot lose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack and has 0...4 health regeneration. When this Spirit prevents damage, it loses XX Health each time. Up to 0..3 allies nearby target ally are also affected. Prot spirit is the obvious counterpart for comparison: This is now almost as 'fast', and can be used with 'similar' tactics. Still it needs to be different or it's pointless so... The idea is to make it effectively a decoy. To deal with this protection, the enemy need only continue to beat on the player (though spirit health changes would have to occur to make this somewhat of a chore), or divert offensive resources to kill the spirit (far stronger and faster method of tackling the situation) thus giving the prot'ed target more room to breath without requiring a hard counter (Spiritual Pain, enchantment removal etc.) beyond your already defacto standard physicals. It does more stuff, because it is balanced differently basically. This is also to greater separate it from Prot Spirit. Pro's: 1) Can not be stripped from the target. 2) Offers health regeneration. 3) Potentially protects up to 4 allies. 4) Requires the diversion (and thus the dilution) of offensive pressure to effectively deal with it. Con's: 1) Spirits physical 'body' still exists so it can in a sense be 'stripped' by no more than the 'basic' and 'natural' tools built into every class (obviously wanding is stupid however). 2) Costs more than PS as it needs to be applied more often since it's effective for less time (and theoretically much shorter still if the opposition adjust to deal with it. Incidentally Boon of Creation would need to looked at for balance issues to ensure the above). 3) The multi-ally benefit is subject to the total hp of the spirit and requires nearby range to work, reducing movement benefits similar to a ward (though the effect will move 'with' the 'bound' target withing normal spirit range. 4) Just like a weapon spell and echoing the current spirit functionality, only one of these Shelter spirits can be used at any one time. (the main reason the recharge is so low. You need to effectively choose who get's prot'ed as it will generally only effect 1 guy. This 'guy' can be changed, but then energy becomes a significant factor and highly predictive reactionary play will quite easily see yourself Diverted. Quite similar to how Spirit Bond functions actually.) So here we have a far more 'active' Shelter, that isn't so over-powered in it's design that it needs to be crap for some kind of bizarre balance, that won't slow the team down heavily, require precognitive ability to use well, or reduce a spirit-spammer into a seemingly mindless automaton, that makes him (laughably) even more interrupt bait by being predictable. This can obviously be re-purposed for other 'problem' spirits (union, Displacement, Wanderlust, etc.) but it's a system within current mechanics that generally follows the 'flow' of the current game and is thus quite flexible on a case-by-case basis instead of a mass, sweeping change. Sorry for the thread high-jack but there you go... Calen The Civl
frojack, you may be on to something. Spirits are binding rituals; therefore why not allow them to be bound to a person? Perhaps mobility could even be added to the spirits so they may "possess" a foe?
Taking your Shelter idea, instead of it being stationary, it attaches itself to the target ally and follows that ally around. Likewise, Pain would attach itself to a foe and do so much damage a second for its duration or until it is killed. And so forth for each of the spirits. Essentially, they would become a visible graphical hex spell. Obviously spirit health,cost, cast times, and duration would need some adjustments if they could bind themselves to a character. Hmmm. I could even picture the spirit graphics overlaying the character or foe they bind onto. I don't mind the thread hijack. The charge system was just something I have heard discussed in various places and thought I would take a stab at the idea. This idea of spirits binding onto characters seems to have more potential. Aethon
The problem I see with the proposed idea in the OP is that charges are basically the same as packets of Health; all that really seems to be affected is that spirits are immune to damage and some skills got changed. I'm not certain if it really fixes the real "flaws" of the spirit system.
I see two primary ways to improving spirits: Transform them from passive skills into active skills (like what frojack suggests), or give them some completely esoteric effects that other skills/professions don't already have. When I refer to esoteric/unique effects, I mean things unlike what enchantments (and other skills) do now. An example off the top of my head is something like Displacement trading places with an ally that takes melee damage, up to once every few seconds (This isn't a well thought out skill; it's just to illustrate what I meant by esoteric/unique). Another example is that spirits could act like "summoned pets" with maintenance costs; depending on the type, the spirits could act with skills like AI healers, protectors, rangers, warriors, etc. using their own active skill(s). So spirits would be a kind of like a meta-active skill, if that makes sense. All my rambling aside, frojack's (or similar) ideas are probably simpler to implement and balance. Calen The Civl
This thread is more of a brainstorming thread in an effort to make the ritualist more active. frojack's idea has a lot of potential:
1. Spirits act more like hexes and enchantments but with health and odd effects. They would be removed by killing them. 2. Spirits may be bound to an ally or foe; they are not stationary turrets any longer. 3. When bound to an ally or foe, they would attach graphically to that target in some way and move with that target. 4. When the target they are bound to dies, the spirit dies as well. A few examples: Pain 5en, 2 cast, 20r Bind a Level 1-7 spirit onto a foe. Every second that foe takes 5-10 damage. This spirit lasts 15 seconds. Life 10en, 2c, 20r Bind a Level 1-7 spirit onto yourself. When this Spirit dies, all non-Spirit allies within its range are healed for 1...6 Health for each second this Spirit was alive. This Spirit dies after 20 seconds. Preservation 5en 2c 20r Bind a Level 1-7 spirit onto an ally. . Every 2 seconds, this Spirit heals all nearby allies for 10...94 Health. This Spirit dies after 16 seconds. Dissonance 10en, 3/4c, 15r Bind a Level 1-7 spirit onto a foe. This Spirit deals 5 damage each second and interrupts the foe. This Spirit dies after 5...10 seconds. Union 5en, 1s, 18r Bind a Level 1-7 spirit on an ally. Whenever a nearby non-Spirit ally takes damage, that damage is reduced by 15 and the Spirit takes 15 damage. This Spirit dies after 5...15 seconds. The numbers would need some adjusting, but such a system would be much more active. The defensive spirits would be similar to protection spells but with area of effect around the bound ally. Offensive spirits would bind to the enemy and either siphon health (Bloodsong) or just do damage per second in addition to their effects. Basically, they turn into killable hex spells.
frojack
(Damn the server for kicking me out and removing my very long and detailed post _-_. A summary...)
Personally I think all spirits need to be bound as they are now for balance reasons. New stuff for attack spirits: They can now be bound to 'train' a target, if a target is selected while they are being created. No target selection makes them act like they currently do. (Why use this old method? Clearly inferior so hopefully mindless spirit spam is bred into extinction.) Rules: 1) Only 1 spirit can train a specific target from your team (error message tells you 'no' on additional train-spirits. Good balance clause.) 2) Bonds break for attack spirits (debatable for buff spirits) if they are moved by Draw Spirit. (No tele spirit ganking nonsense please) 3) These bonds break if either the target dies or the spirit expires. (In the event of the target expiring, the spirit becomes a 'fire at discriminate will' type.) 4) If the target moves out of range, spirit is docile (good balance for strong pressure on a foe. Health, cost and duration changes would obviously need a look at also). Buff spirits - additional considerations Potential earshot as opposed to half radar range to make them easier for the opposition to terminate. Draw Spirit should not break bonds but should a 'bound' ally moves and remains out of range, bond breaks after 2 seconds and the spirit dies. I've probably forgotten more (damn server...) but those are the only potential exploitations I can think of for now. On the whole I think the concept is far more solid. Calen The Civl
I like the idea you have. Binding spirits directly in order to work as a hex or enchantment would be a larger redesign than your binding idea.
It would be helpful as well to have a few spirits have the option to bind multiple party members. No more than 2 or 3 would be bound to a spirit. Restoration, for example, could benefit from this. It would make the spirit less of a blanket effect and more a targeted resurrection method. Preservation would be another benefactor to multiple binding. Perhaps even Shelter or Union at the expense of them dying faster. Docile spirits would help the spirit spamming problem nicely and add more tactics to spirit control. Allowing only one beneficial binding per party member forces strategy to the ritualist nicely as long as the benefits would be close to what a protection monk could achieve. Such a system would require quite a few other considerations. Spirit response time and other bugs (like spirits remaining inactive for long periods) would need to be addressed. A training system would make Signet of Ghostly Might more useful. It might be useful to have the target the spirit is bound viewable to the ritualist somehow. Either the name above the spirit or in an interface. This isn't vital, but would help ease the new system into the game.
Quicksilver Switch-Blade
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Allowing only one beneficial binding per party member forces strategy to the ritualist nicely as long as the benefits would be close to what a protection monk could achieve.
Im kinda of split on that, on one hand, it would most likely make the rit more useful in PvP, but on the other hand, I dont want the rit to become like the monk and spirits become enchantments or hexes essentially that can be removed physically instead by using disenchantment spells, as spirits would lose their uniqueness. |
Making it so only one spirit can be bound to a person makes it sounds too much like weapon spells imho. The only thing I think binding rituals (and in some if not all cases, nature rituals) need is either decreased recharge times (elite ranger spirits got a buff, why not the rest of the rituals?) or decreased casting times, or both, it wouldnt affect PvE too much (casting times just affect how long it takes to setup, and recharge would mean if you do happen to be interupted or something, you dont have to wait a ridicilously long time to recast), as far as I know (which isnt much :P), but it would allow resto rits to just maybe become something to be recognized other than maybe in RA and TA. For attacking spirits, a targeting system similar to pets would be nice (though a shadowsong defending itself can be handy in PvE, cuz melee likes spirits). Training targets could be interesting, but can become kinda weak due to the fact you can only train one spirit to a target, but considering most ppl only bring like one or two attack spirits this wouldnt be a problem for most (though I do like watching the numbers fly as an enemy drops in PvE due ot my spirits concentrating on that target)
frojack
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Originally Posted by Quicksilver Switch-Blade
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Prot monks are far better than anything a rit can do to protect a team (there is no question here, pvp or pve). Sure I speak of PvP mainly but in PvE even, why are people not allowing the tank to take aggro? There's no need to protect more than 2 or 3 people if players in the team play properly. In PvE the enemy just won't be smart enough to run into the back-line and remove a spirit manually like they theoretically would in pvp. so physical removal is a non-issue in my book.
Enchantment removal is not currently huge in the game, but all it takes is for one update to change this. This change to make buff spirits more active makes them approach (and in a very few ways, surpass) Monk prot options in some environments. In most situations monks will still be stronger, but then that's all that monks can effectively do. It wouldn't be fair to take that away from them.
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Plus Weapon spells can't be stacked. Neither can this bound spirit idea, but the AoE effects 'can' be stacked if you play smart
. In say PvE, you could stack AoE Shelter on one tank and AoE Displacement on another. Both receive the benefits if they fight 'nearby' each other. It's very similar to the old system but it's far more focused, rewarding good play and punishing bad. Which is what a skill should always do.Quote:
In 99% of those situations, I bet a good prot monk would have been better hands down. Only in areas of heavy removal does the prot monk's dominance begin to look shaky. Even then they are still usually better....
Similarly a prot monk can save someone in PvP with an RoF+Infuse which is very (VERY!) hard to stop. No Spirit spam can save anyone without it being an accident, and happy accidents have no real value in PvP...
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The only thing I think binding rituals (and in some cases, nature rituals) need is either decreased recharge times (elite ranger spirits got a buff, why not the rest of the rituals?) or decreased casting times, or both, it wouldnt affect PvE too much (casting times just affect how long it takes to setup, and recharge would mean if you do happen to be interupted or something, you dont have to wait a ridicilously long time to recast), as far as I know, but it would allow resto rits to maybe become something to be recognized other than maybe in RA and TA. For attacking spirits, a targeting system similar to pets would be nice (though a shadowsong defending itself can be handy in PvE, cuz melee likes spirits).
You see, that's the problem. They don't have any of that because they would be stupidly over-powered. Before the nerf they didn't even have half of that effectiveness and they were still over-powered. What has to be understood is that spirit-spam is 'almost' mindless. It doesn't need to consider that much and takes very little effort, it's 'passive' play. It has to be bad to make up for this. To make 'active' play (far more difficult, and requiring 'skill' do do well) more effective. In a competitive game you can't have passive stuff being better or even as good as active stuff. It just breaks things if you do. The element of pve isn't really a major issue because pve is as easy as you want it to be. Enemies don't 'look' for your weaknesses and collapse on it. They are not out to crush your team in any and every way possible. They play like they always play so we can all relax and have fun playing instead of worrying about high-end stressful tactics. That is what pvp is for. Still that is neither here nor there. This proposed system is as better than the old in both game types. Quote:
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Well I hope that helped. 
) submit this into the suggestion forum? I think the ideas presented here might be able to get some consideration.
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