Discuss.
So I just got back from almost a year long absence from playing properly. I'm thinking of getting back into the game but I doubt it will happen due to the vast amount of players that have moved on, including most of my former Guild Mates. Would like to hear opinions.
Obviously I'd prefer it to be so. It gave a great strategic element to GvG play, as pushes and efforts to fall back, various splits, and the preperations were a great part of GvG play. Furthermore, there was little stalling to just win at VoD, nor Builds specifically designed to win when those conditions came. There were, naturally, exceptions, however the amount now far outweigh then. Seems to me the main reason for shortening the VoD time is for quicker AT matches, which serves a quantity rather than quality attitude ArenaNet have towards the highest form of PvP.
Also, Cat Maps should be in rotation for AT's. Would be eager to hear views on this - it would be better to keep the NPC staggering as is, change the VoD timer, and change the Cat maps so that they are symetrical and the fixed shot range can actually be implemented (it's a well known fact it's already been tried and tested).
Ta.
Victory or Death back to 30 minutes.
Vanquisher
IMMORTAlMITCH
Signed.
At the very least change it back to 20/25 with a bigger delay between npc waves.
18 min vod with 20 min lord walking just enforces defensive builds with 'VoD skills' (i.e. AoE) because it's much easier to stall for VoD and theres a lot less time to creat a morale/npc advantage.
At the very least change it back to 20/25 with a bigger delay between npc waves.
18 min vod with 20 min lord walking just enforces defensive builds with 'VoD skills' (i.e. AoE) because it's much easier to stall for VoD and theres a lot less time to creat a morale/npc advantage.
I MP I
/signed x10 GvGs were more interesting and fun then. It was the difference maker between winning or losing since a lot could happen in 30 minutes.
Bankai
I like this.
/writes down name
/writes down name
Nurse With Wound
I never understood the reasons why it was shortened down to 20 mins in the first place, now, to merely 18 mins. Bring back old VOD timer.
yesitsrob
While this would probably encourage guilds to run less boring shit. The ones that do continue to run 2 blinding surges, clumsiness mesmers, and other horriblly boring crap will be even more boring to face than they are now, because you'll have to put up with them for an extra 10 minutes and there's about an 84% chance that at least 2 guildies will fall asleep in that extra 10 minutes, thus losing you the match because you forgot to stock enough Red Bull.
In general though I like the idea, I'm just not sure how fun it will be in the current meta where a lot of the defensive skills remain very strong.
In general though I like the idea, I'm just not sure how fun it will be in the current meta where a lot of the defensive skills remain very strong.
Martin Firestorm
I'd support this. As for cat maps in ATs, I'd prefer that AT's just be scrapped altogether, at least for gvg.
crimsonfilms
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Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm
I'd support this. As for cat maps in ATs, I'd prefer that AT's just be scrapped altogether, at least for gvg.
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30 VoD is just too long for a +1/+2 match.
removal of AT with current ladder = dead GW PvP
AT is the only thing that keeps the current top guilds interested. You don't see much no name guilds playing it - meaning it is not that popular for guilds beyond top 100.
pigdestroyer
not a good idea, guilds who run uberdefensive builds will continue to do so... too boring
Yichi
Good to have ya come back vanq.
Yeah id agree that the game play was better back when the VoD timer was 30 minutes, but in the current meta, there are a huge amount of overly defensive builds running around out there that are built just for VoD, even more so than before. The dual bsurge/clumsiness mes is one example. While pushing back the timer to its origional state would be great, the problem you'll see with it is it now just made the AT's another hour longer almost (they lowered the VoD timer to 18 minutes to try and shorten the game play for AT's, or at least that was a reason they gave...) and if you run across a hugely defensive build like that which takes advantage of VoD mechanics, you have even more of a chance to fall asleep during the match.
and yes, the removal of AT's for GvG would kill the current competitive PvP thats left in the game.
Yeah id agree that the game play was better back when the VoD timer was 30 minutes, but in the current meta, there are a huge amount of overly defensive builds running around out there that are built just for VoD, even more so than before. The dual bsurge/clumsiness mes is one example. While pushing back the timer to its origional state would be great, the problem you'll see with it is it now just made the AT's another hour longer almost (they lowered the VoD timer to 18 minutes to try and shorten the game play for AT's, or at least that was a reason they gave...) and if you run across a hugely defensive build like that which takes advantage of VoD mechanics, you have even more of a chance to fall asleep during the match.
and yes, the removal of AT's for GvG would kill the current competitive PvP thats left in the game.
Vanquisher
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Originally Posted by yesitsrob
While this would probably encourage guilds to run less boring shit. The ones that do continue to run 2 blinding surges, clumsiness mesmers, and other horriblly boring crap will be even more boring to face than they are now, because you'll have to put up with them for an extra 10 minutes and there's about an 84% chance that at least 2 guildies will fall asleep in that extra 10 minutes, thus losing you the match because you forgot to stock enough Red Bull.
In general though I like the idea, I'm just not sure how fun it will be in the current meta where a lot of the defensive skills remain very strong. |
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Originally Posted by crimsonfilms
I prefer the 20/25 VoD - especially if they add the new NPC walking behavior.
30 VoD is just too long for a +1/+2 match. removal of AT with current ladder = dead GW PvP AT is the only thing that keeps the current top guilds interested. You don't see much no name guilds playing it - meaning it is not that popular for guilds beyond top 100. |
If you were trying to farm ladder points, would you prefer 3 quick matches with a longer VoD timer, or to turtle for 30 minutes knowing you're likely to lose anyway. You can easily make more points in the time you would be stalling, which is why during the last weekend of tournament seasons with ladder qualification everyone used to run quick builds, and in the 3 day season most people ran SBRI and Dual/Triple Smite. Quick results, quick points.
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Originally Posted by pigdestroyer
not a good idea, guilds who run uberdefensive builds will continue to do so... too boring
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"Ye ok."
The High Lord
I agree with the catapult changes which should have been implemented ages ago. But I don't know about the VoD timer. Yes, matches will become better, but due to alot of people leaving the game it will be hard to find opponents. Not much people want to spend 45 mins/round.
pigdestroyer
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Originally Posted by Vanquisher
Catapult Map and the use of tactics pretty much dominates any such strategy. That was the advantage of Cat maps. Even if teams turtle you just have that massive advantage.
Very few matches that give +1 or +2 lasted anywhere near VoD when it was 30 minutes. People very rarely stalled for VoD unless they'd been pushed back, and the vast majority ran with offensive builds and strategies that prevented this from happening. The better teams would often play all the way up to 30, with VoD preperations beginning at around 20/21 because they were unable to beat eachother before that. Those were amazing matches too. The slightest mistakes would be capitalized upon and you'd lose. If you were trying to farm ladder points, would you prefer 3 quick matches with a longer VoD timer, or to turtle for 30 minutes knowing you're likely to lose anyway. You can easily make more points in the time you would be stalling, which is why during the last weekend of tournament seasons with ladder qualification everyone used to run quick builds, and in the 3 day season most people ran SBRI and Dual/Triple Smite. Quick results, quick points. Because when it was 30 minutes before, every team did that, didn't they? "Ye ok." |
Winstar
While 30 minutes would be hard on the ATS, I don't agree that the ATS is the glue holding things together. The fact that the ATS, after forefits happen, is basically small tournament with a handful of 200 and better teams is an indication of a problem. What the game needs is a way to encourage more teams to get better, play more, and revitalize GvG given the loss in the player base at the top. The current ATS system doesn't seem to do much to encourage newer players and guilds to break into GvG. While it might do the job of hanging on the the remaining top players, something needs to be done to get more people playing.
Winstar
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Originally Posted by pigdestroyer
key word of the day "did" past time, not the same guilds, not the same meta, for the current meta I'd take the 18 min VoD over 30 easily.
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Lykan
/signed
go vanq!
go vanq!
fenix
This could be a good change, considering how much better GvG was before the 20 minute VoD. Teams were allowed to 'dig in' at the stand and put constant pressure on the other team, and not worry about them stalling until VoD came. Matches were almost always over quickly too, which is nice, since teams ran highly offensive builds to wipe the other team as fast as they could, rather than chill out till VoD and NPC-fsck their opponent...
I agree with this change, it would be nice. Although AT's would be painfully slow....
I agree with this change, it would be nice. Although AT's would be painfully slow....
Tifa Superstar
Some people have a RL and don't have all day to spend in a match unfortunately.
/not signed
/not signed
IMMORTAlMITCH
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Originally Posted by Tifa Superstar
Some people have a RL and don't have all day to spend in a match unfortunately.
/not signed |
around
I really don't want 30 minute VoD because I have bad experience of playing in a team with a spirit shitter that forced all GvGs to go on for agggggggeeeeeesssssssssssssss.
20 minute VoD is much better because matches don't drag on for so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long.
20 minute VoD is much better because matches don't drag on for so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long.
RhanoctJocosa
While ATs would be longer, it would be well worth it considering how much better old-style vod matches were than the present.
Hope you stay Vanq, now all we need are the Koreans.
Hope you stay Vanq, now all we need are the Koreans.
Vanquisher
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Originally Posted by Tifa Superstar
Some people have a RL and don't have all day to spend in a match unfortunately.
/not signed |
The only good reason I see for not having a 30 minute VoD is because the ladder is so utterly meaningless and the focus is on these AT's that very few people even care about in comparison to the major tournaments that used to be hosted. Seriously - who talks about say, the May AT in comparison to the amount of people talking about the GWWC and GWFC. Those big competitions brought the best players and Guilds, and after they went, half of those players and Guilds pretty much instantly quit. The biggest criticism then was that the Ladder rewarded grinding far too much, which was more a problem with the system employed than the timer. The fact that VoD is so early has served only to increase the ability of builds focusing one on aspect of play, because there is not enough time to successfully employ various tactics and strategies against them. 20 minutes was exactly the same as this in essence.
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Originally Posted by spawnofebil
I really don't want 30 minute VoD because I have bad experience of playing in a team with a spirit shitter that forced all GvGs to go on for agggggggeeeeeesssssssssssssss.
20 minute VoD is much better because matches don't drag on for so long. |
twicky_kid
Too many defensive skills have been added to the game. I'd love to go back to prophecies meta. Most matches didn't get to VoD back then because defense wasn't that great. Now with bsurge we have lots of bar compression for even more def skills and ect....
I think VoD comes way too fast. Most games 20 minutes would be make or break. It gave you enough time to finish off the team and make a heavy push before VoD.
With it at 18 minutes you might as well just play for VoD and ignore everything else. Everyone complains about heroes but what I don't understand is the NPC kill fest that has become GvG. My first targets are the NPCs not the players. Too much emphasis on VoD now.
I think VoD comes way too fast. Most games 20 minutes would be make or break. It gave you enough time to finish off the team and make a heavy push before VoD.
With it at 18 minutes you might as well just play for VoD and ignore everything else. Everyone complains about heroes but what I don't understand is the NPC kill fest that has become GvG. My first targets are the NPCs not the players. Too much emphasis on VoD now.
Servant of Kali
/notsigned
Sorry, but I quite like it the way it is now. It's less tedious. Granted, I don't play in top50 GvG, but GvG i play is more fluent this way. NOTHING, absolutely nothing changed with the reduction to 18min VoD, except that it ended sooner. In 99,99% matches that I've been into, winner was declared far sooner than 18min mark. Why then would the agony be prolonged to 30min? Would strategy and tactics increase? Sorry, no. Not from what I've seen. Not every guild resigns. Some wait until gameover, even though it's obvious they gonna lose, and suprises happen almost never.
I agree with what yesitsrob wrote.
Sorry, but I quite like it the way it is now. It's less tedious. Granted, I don't play in top50 GvG, but GvG i play is more fluent this way. NOTHING, absolutely nothing changed with the reduction to 18min VoD, except that it ended sooner. In 99,99% matches that I've been into, winner was declared far sooner than 18min mark. Why then would the agony be prolonged to 30min? Would strategy and tactics increase? Sorry, no. Not from what I've seen. Not every guild resigns. Some wait until gameover, even though it's obvious they gonna lose, and suprises happen almost never.
I agree with what yesitsrob wrote.
Burton2000
Theres a reason cata maps arent in the AT's and thats because either defending team or attacking team have advantages depending on the map for instance on wizards isle its impossible to hit the defending team with the cata while not the same for the attacking team. These are fair in normal matches as defenders are the lower rank but no in AT's wheres its just luck if your defending.
Vanquisher
I suggest you read the first post where I said that the Cat maps should be changed so they're equally beneficial for each team and the mod that prevents Cat's from being random is incorporated.
Yes, yes they would. Lower ranked matches aren't what decides champions anyway. Those are the casual matches, and really, if they're finished before VoD in its current state is anyway, why does it matter? The standard, including tactics and strategies at the high end of gameplay, would have a chance to thrive as they once did. And, as I said before, if you're really worried about turtling teams, run a Cat map - it's not going to matter if you're not participating in AT's anyway, and I really don't see why the map designers don't just take functionality into account with Guild Halls rather than prettiness and modify them - they've done it to others before - so they're fair.
Lightning Strike, Lightning Orb, Draw Conditions, Blinding Flash, Ward Against Foes, Heal Party, Ether Prodigy, Res
I ran that bar for the majority of GWFC seasons one through three. What's changed? I've got Surge instead of Flash for Blind, which accomplishes the same thing and is used in almost exactly the same way. I've still got the Ward. I've dropped HP and E-Prod for Convert and Gale, Strike is now Air Attune, and Res is Glyph Lesser.
The functionality has changed very little. In fact the bar's become more aggressive in a way, losing the HP and gaining Gale, but even after playing yesterday I think there are various excellent arguments for reverting back to the old style E-Prod / HP Ele.
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Originally Posted by Servant of Kali
/notsigned
Sorry, but I quite like it the way it is now. It's less tedious. Granted, I don't play in top50 GvG, but GvG i play is more fluent this way. NOTHING, absolutely nothing changed with the reduction to 18min VoD, except that it ended sooner. In 99,99% matches that I've been into, winner was declared far sooner than 18min mark. Why then would the agony be prolonged to 30min? Would strategy and tactics increase? Sorry, no. Not from what I've seen. Not every guild resigns. Some wait until gameover, even though it's obvious they gonna lose, and suprises happen almost never. I agree with what yesitsrob wrote. |
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Originally Posted by twicky kid
Too many defensive skills have been added to the game. I'd love to go back to prophecies meta. Most matches didn't get to VoD back then because defense wasn't that great. Now with bsurge we have lots of bar compression for even more def skills and ect....
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I ran that bar for the majority of GWFC seasons one through three. What's changed? I've got Surge instead of Flash for Blind, which accomplishes the same thing and is used in almost exactly the same way. I've still got the Ward. I've dropped HP and E-Prod for Convert and Gale, Strike is now Air Attune, and Res is Glyph Lesser.
The functionality has changed very little. In fact the bar's become more aggressive in a way, losing the HP and gaining Gale, but even after playing yesterday I think there are various excellent arguments for reverting back to the old style E-Prod / HP Ele.