Thought about the PVE only skills, grind and the futur of the game for casual gamers

Longasc

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

A friend of mine returned after half a year. He was not playing much for one year.

He is lacking so many elites it is not funny. He has to get tons of Balthazar Faction to unlock skills for his heroes. He has to equip his heroes and all that...

He also has to get used to the new skills - many skills got so much nerfed and buffed, he has a lot to re-learn.

And he has no Kurzick rank nor have most of his chars Sunspear ranks at all, only 2 are through Elona by now.


He also struggles with money. He can buy some upgrades for little money thanks to the huge deflation of prices, but that was it.



No, GW is no longer as casual as it was. And the THREE (!) new pve title tracks will not make it more casual friendly either. Some have skills that are simply a must have, Pain Inverter and Asuran Scan are just awesome.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Agree with the OP.

The game is evolving to give grinders more stuff to do (like titles etc.)

That's fine, it's nice to have goals.

Making PvE benefits for grinding is what GW wasn't supposed to be about. Remember the slogan? "Skill, not time spent"

Well, LB rank is +5% damage per level, and +40% damage is a pretty darn noticeable bonus. It takes a fair bit of effort to get r8 LB; my ritualist (for example) has r2 from playing the game through, and has protector of Elona and a few masters in hard mode too, IIRC.

Sure, my main got r8 in it, but it was a lot of grind, and while I think that grind should exist, perhaps with snazzy titles or new skins for weapons/armours/emote flashing that making the PvE part of the game grind based is a mistake.

My Sweet Revenga

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

R/

Last I checked faction farming at lut did require a bit of skill to do it quickly and consistently.... especially mu....

Anyways, a lot of the PVE only skills, you don't even have to grind very high up their respective title chains to make them effective. They're already pretty good skills even at the lowest tier. So just grind enough to be able to unlock the skills, and leave it at that. Even regular skills you have to obtain enough gold to BUY them from the skill trainers in the fist place. Just fool your mind into thinking the grinding is actual regular gameplay.... and everything will be blissfully fine :b

Shadowspawn X

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

I disagree with several points that the OP has presented. His issue is he has too many characters. When a person has 10 characters and considers himself a casual player it doesn't add up. I played one character as a casual player because I wanted to experience the whole game and I knew I couldn't do it with a zillion toons. After eight months of play when I had every skill in the game on my ranger and fow armor/spider and did every quest and mission in the game. Then I decided to make another character. After over two years playing GW. I still only have 3 characters. It is unreasonable to create 10 characters and whine about not being able to max them all out. Anet gave 4 slots in the beginning not six, thats because the game was not intended to be maxed out by a toon in a short period of time. I do share some concern about the amount of grind in the game because the grind tends to be non-creative and has no entertainment value. However, that issue needs to be addressed on a stronger more solid argument than someone stating they don't have time to max out 10 toons, that simply does not have any credibility because its a unrealistic expectation..

wilderness

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...

Bottom line: Hardcore players *should* be rewarded for their extra efforts. Hardcore players will always have more items/loot/skills etc than the casual gamer, but that's never been an issue with GWs as all the benefits to grinding are purely aesthetic.

So our 'reward' for playing like manics is a slight buff to some PvE (the magic acronym) only skills.. wow, I can see how two seconds/points of damage/etc.. is worth all of these tears..

Point is, the increase give by SS/Lb are extremely minimal and PvE is not a contest so it doesn't matter, regardless.

-

If anet were implementing elite areas for those with full titles, pvp skills, or extra dmg weapons and such, I could understand the uproar....

Some of you guys expect everything handed to you on a plate, and when those of us that play(ed) this game like a religion finally get something to show for it (something ever so slight in the grand scheme of it all), you throw your toys out of the pram.

Lots of damp shoulders about these days...

Vamis Threen

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longasc
A friend of mine returned after half a year. He was not playing much for one year.

He is lacking so many elites it is not funny. He has to get tons of Balthazar Faction to unlock skills for his heroes. He has to equip his heroes and all that...

He also has to get used to the new skills - many skills got so much nerfed and buffed, he has a lot to re-learn.
Longasc, if the game didn't change at all during the last 6-12 months, would you still be playing? Would it have kept your interest? Your friend doesn't sound like a casual player, more like a non-existent player. Isn't he enjoying all the great new stuff? Brand new elites and regular skills, diverse and exciting builds? And he still has all this tasty goodness ahead of him - we shouldn't pity your friend, we should envy him.

TabascoSauce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Virginia, US

TFgt

W/Me

Keep in mind - the grinders are the ones who are asking for more challenge in PvE.

Am I the only one that sees the irony between watching the grinders scream how PvE is too easy, and how ANet rewards them with say, +100 armor, party-wide?

This is a bad idea.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

wetsparks

wetsparks

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilderness
I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...
That line was so good I think I will use it myself. People like to bring up Skill > Time. Guess what, it is actually Skill = Time. Do you think Michael Jordan became the greatest basketball player of all time by not putting in any time? He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better. Hardcore players have more skill because they put in the time. The casual player can make his way through the game, beat the missions, maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs. And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs.
PUGging as casual with no titles goes something like this:

Casual: LFG
PUG: What rank are you?
Casual: No rank
PUG: LOL nub lrn2play ktnxbye

Casual play is heroway all the way. Let's not pretend over something - in GW, if you don't have the titles, you're nobody, and never will be anybody.

Quote:
And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.
Funny... WoW raiding is deemed hard-core, yet, without epic gear, without any special titles, I've never been turned down from a PUG.

In GW, unless I run exactly cookie cutter build, exactly the right title, exactly the right gear, exactly the right hair color, I better now even ask, since the hate tells will be coming in for two more days.

WoW is casual's dream these days, and GW the worst grind fest there is. In GW, I cannot level a character in one month anymore (titles, that is), it's impossible to get anywhere close to DoA on any character except for the monk which happens to be r5 LB, and with GW:EN, title grind will determine who gets to play or not.

Yes, GW has changed. A lot. But apparently, it's selling well, doing well, so people must like it - who am I to judge what is "the right way".

UW was the original elite area - PUGs had no problem there.
Tombs were overran with first-timers, no problems making PUGs.
The Deep was cleared routinely by PUGs.
But DoA? LFM, LB3 or higher required....

Casual does not mean incompetent. Competent person will need very little time to learn. Those lacking skill need artificial boost from skills which can only be gained through grind.

Quote:
He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better.
No... why aren't there better basketball players than him? Is every other human being on planet too lazy? Then why does he suck so much? Why didn't he train for 10 more years, and become god? After all, why stop?

Genetics... training merely perfected them.

TabascoSauce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Virginia, US

TFgt

W/Me

Good post Antheus.

I'd like to add a gem from a few months ago, a real whopper of a discussion about "skill" in GW. What a load of bunk. This game is about reading comprehension - not skill. Basketball (or name any other professional sport) is based on skill, and you see all the wikis out there for that, right?

These people are simply the "grind and entitlement" yahoos.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Good post Antheus.

I'd like to add a gem from a few months ago, a real whopper of a discussion about "skill" in GW. What a load of bunk. This game is about reading comprehension - not skill. Basketball (or name any other professional sport) is based on skill, and you see all the wikis out there for that, right?
I think it's pretty clear that whatever skill this game takes, you ain't got any. Please stop trying to tell people how the game works when you don't know.

Yichi

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wetsparks
That line was so good I think I will use it myself. People like to bring up Skill > Time. Guess what, it is actually Skill = Time. Do you think Michael Jordan became the greatest basketball player of all time by not putting in any time? He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better. Hardcore players have more skill because they put in the time. The casual player can make his way through the game, beat the missions, maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs. And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.
Umm you're way off there buddy. You have to have skill in order to be able to put in the time to learn to develop that skill. Im sorry but no amount of time is going to fix the fact that some, in fact most, people are bad at this game and always will be.

cryptology

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2006

I've read most of this thread... and I'll say there are some really, really, strong arguments from both sides. But I'll throw a little stick into the spokes:

Who exactly do we deem a casual player? I noticed someone mentioned heros all the way, and I agree with that. A casual player should have the desire to go to DoA (as it seems drops are the only incentive, correct me if I'm wrong), or to kill monsters faster than the next guy, or to get every title in the game. I always figured a casual player plays through the story, and as it's been stated can be done without significant grinding, and then stops or does it again on another character.

Honestly, that's what I started out as. I purchased Nightfall on release and it took me about a month to get through the story whilst completing most of the quests. I wasn't trying to reach level 20 in a week and I, frankly, didn't care what other people had. I honestly didn't care about what some people mention; having one more second of spell time than me, etc. I really only cared about the story and playing with my friends.

I did play the first couple of weekend beta events before Prophecies was released. Yes, it seemed like everyone, casual or hardcore was on a similar playing field. I don't think the OP is arguing from a casual player's standpoint. The OP is arguing from someone who wants more than a casual player, but won't put in the work it takes to do so.

I'm perfectly fine with the concept of getting better things for your grind. In the end, for the casual player, the game does what it should. To go "hard core", you need to put some work in.

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

Bah!

S*ny is to blame for casual gaming.

Much as I wish it would just die out.... it won't.
As such, anything that exists in direct opposition to the casual gamer attitude gets my vote of approval.


*Proud gamer since the days of the Amiga 500*

Nemo the Capitalist

Nemo the Capitalist

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Trust me you dont want to know my Chasms of Despair

Zaishen Brotherhood

N/Me

dont buy EOTN wait tilll GW 2 comes out sample it then decide whether WOW OR LOTR online

Acolyte of Zero

Acolyte of Zero

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2007

HoPe

P/W

for most of the time, player's skill, and the time they spend playing this game is linked... the more they play, the better they are..

most of the title in this game is meaningless and gives so little advantage over so much effort,
for some title Im not gonna even bother about it, and so will most of u.
but some ppl has so much time, or like to have a goal in game
and in return ofcourse they want something.

salvage % and all that is so tiny we shudnt even cry about it..

Engel the Fallen

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

With only three PvE skills now total allowed on a bar, why bother grinding anyway? Sure it is retarted that most of GWEN's skills are SO OVERPOWERED to people that they need to be restricted, but really you can just skip entire lines of skills.

Engel the Fallen

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

None of these skills is stronger than Lightbringers Gaze was or the lightbringer track. 40% more damage for nukers and an AoE nuke that interrupts was never complained about, and groups were never insisting that nukers be rank 5 or above to join DoA teams that I saw.

And alot of builds already are dump all into Att and put the rest where ever. Bippers are a great example. They certainly are not taking high levels of Soul Reaping because it helps them, they are doing just because they can. Sames goes for death only MM, damage warriors, most Eles and other classes. Sure they get perks for dumping but most of the time they do not need to have one stat at 16 and the second at 13.

Given too mods are more balanced, the game favors tradition builds for the dungeons. I am sure odd multiman builds will be found using the new skills but more likely than not, people will stick to the old combo's with enchantment removal and different monk bars.

TabascoSauce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Virginia, US

TFgt

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I think it's pretty clear that whatever skill this game takes, you ain't got any. Please stop trying to tell people how the game works when you don't know.
Sticks and stones, buddy. Your like or dislike of me does not alter the facts.

Let me restate them for you, so you are clear. Wouldn't want you to be confused.

Skill in GW is secondary to your build. That is why wikis make such a difference in GW, and are not used in any professional sport. You can consider yourself a better player than I, but irrespective of your opinions if you have a hammer warrior and I have a good anti-warrior necro build, any 1v1 match is a foregone conclusion. Build > Skill. And that equates to reading comprehension for PvE - do two runs through Ruins of Morah with and without "shields up" on a warrior in your party. Big difference, just from reading a wiki. So go ahead and make the case that "skill" can be defined in GW as picking the skills in your build. Not likely. That is why the FotM exists, right? Because someone finds a lucky combo by trial and error, and suddenly every tom, richard, and harry is bulldozing with it. Yeah, check out them FotMs in the basketball wiki. Heh heh.

The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW. ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

darktyco

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW. ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.
Interesting take on the subject- I never thought of it that way.

I still maintain that having skills that are only obtainable (or that you can only rank up) by grinding away at a title is a broken gameplay mechanic. But, if by just completing the storyline, or side-storylines perhaps (like Sorrow's Furnace), then I am okay with it.

With this mindset, I think Sunspear isn't too bad, Lightbringer is somewhat bad, and Lux/Kurz are terrible. It is also why I haven't bought EotN yet: I'm waiting to see how much PvE grind there will be first.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Sticks and stones, buddy. Your like or dislike of me does not alter the facts.
How ironic, I could say the same.

Quote:
Skill in GW is secondary to your build. That is why wikis make such a difference in GW, and are not used in any professional sport. You can consider yourself a better player than I, but irrespective of your opinions if you have a hammer warrior and I have a good anti-warrior necro build, any 1v1 match is a foregone conclusion. Build > Skill.
Wiki makes a difference to players that don't make a difference. Moving on...

This demonstrates the importance of skill balance. Firstly, GW is not balanced to 1v1, and is not meant to be - if you had any, even mentioning that as an example would destroy your credibility. Guild Wars is balanced to a team setup - a format which can handle a variety of situations, depending on the skill setup. Secondly, skill is vastly important in actually playing a build. The cause of this is skill selection and tactical play - the reason why skills like Searing Flames, which largely require the least skill for the most effect, are disliked.

A team build, when well played and co-ordinated, as an immensely larger effect. This is why in PvP the strongest guilds tend to run builds that are the most flexible - they can adapt to situations to cause the most effect rather than trying to simply brute-force their way through. An example of this is EvIL's prophecies build, or from more recently, the meta balance of 2w 1r 1me 2e 2mo. No specific skill is overpowered in this build, no combination 'broken' or from the wiki - the power in it is that player ability can magnify the capabilities of the build. Otherwise, you would see rank 1000s copying [rawr]'s build and giving them a solid fight.

Yes, a strong build is important, but for the most part players don't win through straight-out build domination (there are notable exceptions to this with regards to gimmicks, iB vs EW, winter tournament, etc) while the overall state of the game is balanced. Tactical play, co-ordination, maximization of skill use, and personal character skills like mitigation and targeting make an immense difference in the quality of a team.

While places to actually show skill are less prevalent in PvE (since direct force often wins against one-dimensional foes), there are still relevant points.

Quote:
And that equates to reading comprehension for PvE - do two runs through Ruins of Morah with and without "shields up" on a warrior in your party. Big difference, just from reading a wiki. So go ahead and make the case that "skill" can be defined in GW as picking the skills in your build. Not likely. That is why the FotM exists, right? Because someone finds a lucky combo by trial and error, and suddenly every tom, richard, and harry is bulldozing with it. Yeah, check out them FotMs in the basketball wiki. Heh heh.
Never used "Shields Up!" in that mission, never had to. Don't see why you would need it, unless you're trying to tank many mobs and Varesh without dodging spears? Protection magic and kiting works wonders.

The FotM exists because it is the easiest build to run that wins. A combination of flexibilities, sheer power, simplicity, and a variety of other things are involved in it - and yet as the FotM changes, the same teams tend to win. Sometimes the FotM based on a strong skill combo (triple smite), sometimes based on overall balance (current) - this often varies on the overall state of the metagame. Mostly, it depends on what people see being most effective. Yes, there is some buildwars in this, but once everyone, as you say, runs the 'bulldozing' build, it comes down to player skill again, in the great number of mirror-matches.

Since you seem so well learned, please point out the various 'lucky combos' in the current meta. Assuming you know it at all. After that, I'll be happy to watch you run it in the ATs against teams that don't run the meta. By your logic, since build > skill, and the meta is the best, you should win, yes?

In conclusion, you're funny.

TabascoSauce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2007

Virginia, US

TFgt

W/Me

I would say that you know more about PvP than I do, since the last time I spent any time active (and not watching) in PvP was well over a year ago. I like PvE better, and I am active in other online games. So I cannot match your challenge to tell you "current" meta builds by hands-on experience, since I am not there.

Your statement that 2 teams with equivalent builds will be determined by player skill is truth.

I think that the emphasis from ANet on skill balancing shows how powerful "skills" are in relation to player skill.

Your point that there is an element of player skill to GW is true. Where we disagree is in its importance. We both seem to agree player skill is more relevant in PvP than PvE. I am obviously in the camp that builds and wikis, when they can obviously increase player performance by simply recording builds, to me demonstrates the lack of depth of the game, specifically in PvE but also relevant in PvP.

If you want to believe that player skill is greater than builds, then *you* should take your show on the road in PvP, which you obviously prefer, and demonstrate that player skill can overcome inferior builds. That skill is paramount. If you have something to prove, then go prove it. I'd be happy to watch your matches, and cheer you on.

Maybe our differences in opinion are due to your enjoying GW PvP and participation - I'd say that there is no way that you would admit that Build > Skill if you are the online equivalent of a GW PvP Athlete. Of course you'd say that skill is crucial, and to an extent you are right. That is what we disagree on, the extent.

Fair enough. I think I understand your point, and hopefully I have explained mine.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Qual

Qual

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Denmark, Karup.

[PuG]

W/E

I don't like the whole idea of farming points in order to get better skils, but I don't really care either...

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I am obviously in the camp that builds and wikis, when they can obviously increase player performance by simply recording builds, to me demonstrates the lack of depth of the game, specifically in PvE but also relevant in PvP.
I don't fully agree. The players that heavily rely on the wiki's are noticeably not great at the game - they can play one build they took, maybe, but have no idea why it works, have no capability to adapt with it, and their other player skills, such as positioning and mitigation, are weak. For example, I have played with many players that believe the best way to take less damage is to heal more, and there was the Mallyx group that decided air eles were good for damaging. Both ideas function on a misunderstanding of game mechanics, yet are fairly widespread. Much like the majority of concepts from wiki, these are very low-level ideas and won't allow a player to ever be good.

Guild Wars is the most noticeably wiki-affected simply because it's so easy to load up a build, which is so variable, and go. Most players in PuGs are judged by the skillbar they bring - judging how skills are used, however, is equally if not more important. You can say this is a lack of depth in that the majority of the visible aspect of a player is their skillbar, but the importance of how skills are used, in terms of selection and targeting, is typically much more important in the effects caused on the enemy (again, there are some skills that are one-dimensional enough to ignore this).

The fact that two of the same build can be played so differently for different effect, or two completely different builds can be played to similar effects, that is game depth from how players in teams can work. Versatility in team play is, indeed, less prevalent in PvE, but the depth of what you can do is still there. Unfortunately, so long as enemies are one-dimensional players can only do so much, and the extent is limited.

Qual

Qual

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Denmark, Karup.

[PuG]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilderness
I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...

Bottom line: Hardcore players *should* be rewarded for their extra efforts. Hardcore players will always have more items/loot/skills etc than the casual gamer, but that's never been an issue with GWs as all the benefits to grinding are purely aesthetic.

So our 'reward' for playing like manics is a slight buff to some PvE (the magic acronym) only skills.. wow, I can see how two seconds/points of damage/etc.. is worth all of these tears..

Point is, the increase give by SS/Lb are extremely minimal and PvE is not a contest so it doesn't matter, regardless.

-

If anet were implementing elite areas for those with full titles, pvp skills, or extra dmg weapons and such, I could understand the uproar....

Some of you guys expect everything handed to you on a plate, and when those of us that play(ed) this game like a religion finally get something to show for it (something ever so slight in the grand scheme of it all), you throw your toys out of the pram.

Lots of damp shoulders about these days...
wauw, this post just changed my point of view....

Zubrowka

Zubrowka

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW. ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.
Grinders are basically workaholics. They think they're playing a game but what they really want is a work simulator. Getting "rewards" for time and labor spent--that's the very definition of work. There's no way you can get around that. If you want be "rewarded" from spending time in a game, then it's no longer a game: it is work. Real gamers don't want work. They play games to have fun. The diconomy presented by the OP between hardcore gamers vs. casual ones is bogus. People don't want to grind not because they're casual. They don't want to grind because it's freaking stupid.

4ssassin

4ssassin

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2006

none

W/E

First off, Zubrowka, That is exactly what I tell people. If I want to grind for rewards, I'll go to work and make some REAL money.

Now let me tell you guys a story, about a kid who got his first gaming computer.
When he got this gaming computer, he was very happy. But, he had no games. So naturally he pulled out some magazines, and on reading one about 8 months old, he cam across an ad for Guild Wars. In this ad was a warrior standing over another dead warrior. The warrior standing had much, much less play time than the dead one. Then the slogan ran "Guild Wars, an MMO that rewards skill, not time spent."

"Cool!" says the kid. Thats the game for me! So the next game he goes and picks up Guild Wars Prophcies, and its everything he thought it was. Sure, it took awhile to get used to it, but within a month he had max armor, a green hammer, and was playin as an equal with the rest of the community, both in pve and some pvp. (The kid never did play HA, not liking the elitism.)

The kid also didnt like guilds too much, finding them very bothersim, and requiring alot of work to keep the people in them happy. He still plays solo.

Time passed, and Guild Wars Factions came out, which of course he bought and played. This was even better it seemed, with great xp rewards, and being able to get new skills faster. When he got to the kurzick side (his favorite color was blue after all.) He had to do a bit of grind. Now, the kid HATES grind; but it was a very small amount, and after all, everyone else had to do it.

Then in an update, Ane decided to implement titles. The kid was confused by these titles. These did not reward skill over time. These did the exact opposite, the people that played more would be alot more fancy. But, he didnt mind too much, after all, the titles where just like FoW armor: fancy, cool, but not needed to be good, and didnt make him any worse off.

Then Anet made some titles influnece the game. This confused the kid even more: now these people that had grinded these titles just for vanity would have a fairly distinct advantange. Being able to salvage things twice? And still maybe keep the weapon? Why, now the chest runner will get even richer. The kid was saddened by this, but again, he got over it. He had plenty of money saved from his questing, and the fact that he didnt need anything fancy, and didnt hardly buy anything but salvage kits and ID kits. The kid continued to play, enjoying the game.

Then nightfall came out, and the kid, still loyal to Anet, got the game. Heros sounded cool! His warrior hero will be a quivering blade spammer, yay!

But NF brought even more grind. He had to grind to get through part of the game yet again. And, what was worse, is the people that grinded the LB title would be doing much,much more damage than him, and they would be more wanted than him. To make it worse, the high level area was so hard he couldnt get a group, for the kid had vocal problems, and would be little use on a mic. The kid forgot ever being able to play in the high end area. He could get groups in the lower areas, but few people wanted him since he had such a low LB title. (When the kid heard that some people got max LB with no effort to through an exploit that was later removed, he was very angry)
The kid played through NF, and then went back to play in the low level pvp that is factions. 12v12 battles? defending a fort from evil invaders? The kid loved these things.

Now the kid is playing the GWEN sneak peek. He sees that all of his money he saved to maybe set 1 little set of fancy armor, isnt spendable...he must grind titles to get it. 50/70 new skills his character could get are also of very little use, for they must be grinded to be any good. And the HoM made him very sad.

Ah, the weapon momemnt. The fact that he had unlocked all the items with balth faction should come to play here. Or maybe his pride and joy, a req9 perfect Zodaic staff, could be displayed here. Maybe even his chaos and gothic weapons. But no...he must grind and farm or buy new, GWEN weapons

Ah, heros then! Surely the fact that the kid had every single hero across all 3 campagins would be recognized? But no..only koss was, for the kid had once splurged to make his favorite hero look better.

Ah, the armor. Surely his unique blend of kurzick/prophecies/primeval armor would be given a place. But no..only full sets are allowed there...

Well....its not much, but maybe his few minipets: jade armor, juggernaunt, whiptail. could be added? Ah, but only if he didnt mind none of his other characters being allowed to use them.

Well..the kid didnt like title grind, but he didnt mind afking for that spiffy unlucky title, that he was rank 3 in. oh....it is only for very high pvp titles...and not any of the pvp that he enjoyed...

The kid is very sad with Guild Wars now.....he faintly remembers "skill, not time played", and wonders....where that ideal went.....