These players work on the assumption that, like them, you want to be able to beat the mission as painlessly and as quickly as possible. As such, asking for builds and demanding changes is a way of weeding out the idiots.
Let's say you're doing...oh, Gate of Madness, and you get a W/Mo in the group. You ask him to ping his bar, and he gives you crap like Mending without bringing Wild Blow. Well this instantly tells you two things: 1) This guy doesn't have a clue about the mission since he isn't bringing Wild Blow, and 2) This guy is bad at the game because he thinks Mending is a good enough skill to bring. Thus, from the build, you can discern that the player is bad and/or clueless, and that there are better people to find.
Of course, there always is the chance that he is just clueless, and by asking him to change his build you can see if he's a complete idiot. If he goes along with it, then he'll cooperate. He might not be a liability, good. If he demands reasoning as to why, it becomes clear that the player is stubborn and probably not cooperative or a team player. Granted, you can get through almost any mission with one or two uncooperative people.
However, if you find someone with a cookie-cutter build, it instantly tells you that this person either 1) is willing to listen and therefore is more likely to cooperate with the group and/or 2) has some knowledge of the game to know that certain skills work well together or for this mission.
Why do you feel you have the right to pick apart my build and demand changes?
Relambrien
upier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by brian78wa
This is why I dont pug. Idiots thinking that they have the only build that works. If youre at the end mission obviously your build worked well enough to get you there. If you dont like that persons build YOU leave the group not them.
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Party leader = the man.
His party = his shit.
You don't like it = you leave.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bokken
To you know-it-alls: Please be quiet and play your character and allow me to play mine as I see fit.
I am NOT here to please you. My build works great |
A build is only as good as it fits into the team build.
So obviously I have no problems taking or giving advice on skills. I will speak my mind if I see players taking skills that are worthless (worthless as in: 1. worthless in that area 2. worthless because of other team members builds). I will also explain why I feel that way. AND I pretty much expect to be taken seriously - just because I will only comment on stuff that I actually KNOW! I won't demand that players go out and buy 8 new skills - but will try to make the build work with whatever skills they have.
Of course there is the problem that some of the players giving advice are sometimes complete morons. But then again - once YOU know a great deal about the game, you will be able to separate idiots from people giving good advice. And that's where the Kick/Leave button comes into play. OR if you're feeling nice - explain to them why they are wrong. BUT reacting by pulling out your virtual penis solves nothing. And that seems to be your problem.
Iuris
Personally, I'm torn on the issue.
On one hand, everyone has the right to play their character however they like. You think you don't need an elite? Fine with me, in theory.
But then, I also know that 2 out of three PUGs I enter have serious trouble because of the players who don't shoulder their share of the burden. Or simply refuse to play in a certain way.
Just the other day, I arrive at Gyala hatchery to complete my title track, and when I already have a full hero henchman party, I notice some guy looking for a group. So I say to myself, why not, some company would be nice. Except that I told the guy that I intended to avoid the turtles and clear the way first (and got something sounding like an OK), and just when I'm on the other side of the hill at the start, the group's health bars start to move - he just went to the turtles, no matter what. We wipe. Attempt two, I explain to him to stay to the right - no, he cuts straight to the turtles. So I left. And got a looooong tirade of abuse regarding my sexual non-habits since I left them...
In the end, forming a PUG is a negotiation. Who takes what and how the mission will get done is part of the negotiation. In the end - if you are unwilling to accept the agreed upon decisions (including who is leader), noone has the right to force you to agree. But noone has the duty to accept you into the group, either.
On one hand, everyone has the right to play their character however they like. You think you don't need an elite? Fine with me, in theory.
But then, I also know that 2 out of three PUGs I enter have serious trouble because of the players who don't shoulder their share of the burden. Or simply refuse to play in a certain way.
Just the other day, I arrive at Gyala hatchery to complete my title track, and when I already have a full hero henchman party, I notice some guy looking for a group. So I say to myself, why not, some company would be nice. Except that I told the guy that I intended to avoid the turtles and clear the way first (and got something sounding like an OK), and just when I'm on the other side of the hill at the start, the group's health bars start to move - he just went to the turtles, no matter what. We wipe. Attempt two, I explain to him to stay to the right - no, he cuts straight to the turtles. So I left. And got a looooong tirade of abuse regarding my sexual non-habits since I left them...
In the end, forming a PUG is a negotiation. Who takes what and how the mission will get done is part of the negotiation. In the end - if you are unwilling to accept the agreed upon decisions (including who is leader), noone has the right to force you to agree. But noone has the duty to accept you into the group, either.
Wolf2581
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
If you are playing with Heroes/Henchmen, then no one is criticizing your build! Win-Win.
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stueyman2099
The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.
Relambrien
Quote:
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Originally Posted by stueyman2099
The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.
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Bryant Again
I will "pick apart your build" because I want what's best for my team. It's not about you or me, it's about us. If you're too selfish to accept this, then please don't join my pugs.
longhornrob
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
I will "pick apart your build" because I want what's best for my team. It's not about you or me, it's about us. If you're too selfish to accept this, then please don't join my pugs.
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me: could you ping your build real quick?
ele: ping
me: is mark of rodgort necessary? you already have immolate/searing flames
ele: yes, it helps set others on fire also
me: ... well, that may be true, but in that case you should pack fireball or firestorm.
ele: what? firestorm is so noob. you're a noob. i'm outta here. *leaves group*
Was that you, Bokken?
Bryant Again
Quote:
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Originally Posted by longhornrob
So earlier today I had an encounter in AB that went something like this:
me: could you ping your build real quick? ele: ping me: is mark of rodgort necessary? you already have immolate/searing flames ele: yes, it helps set others on fire also me: ... well, that may be true, but in that case you should pack fireball or firestorm. ele: what? firestorm is so noob. you're a noob. i'm outta here. *leaves group* Was that you, Bokken? |
zwei2stein
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Commander Ryker
I absolutely despise being told what build/skills to bring and in the days before we could ping the build in chat, I would say ok and then not change a damn thing. But, there has been the rare occasion that I've used a suggested skill to avoid b.s. and found that I liked it a lot. Since pinging, I can't lie about it anymore, so I will give it a try. If I hate it, I'll say so and go back to what I'm comfortable with. No muss no fuss.
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F'ng griefers.
YunSooJin
so don't cry when I kick you..
k?
k?
baz777
I completed NF with my Ele and Mes, and then went through Factions and Prophecies with them entirely with Hero/Hench. It’s not that I’m antisocial, just suits my playing time.
I’ll listen to proposed skill changes and if I deem them necessary I will comply, but explain to the team if I disagree and the reasons why.
I also may comment on someone’s build with regards to constructive recommendations. If you do it nicely and explain the reasons why then I find most people are prepared to listen.
I once found Koss with Mending and Healing Breeze equipped. I kicked him for a whole week, he didn’t do it again!
I’ll listen to proposed skill changes and if I deem them necessary I will comply, but explain to the team if I disagree and the reasons why.
I also may comment on someone’s build with regards to constructive recommendations. If you do it nicely and explain the reasons why then I find most people are prepared to listen.
I once found Koss with Mending and Healing Breeze equipped. I kicked him for a whole week, he didn’t do it again!
Yanman.be
Why do you feel you have the right to ignore whatever the party leader says?
tmakinen
Well, there are four different possibilities:
If both the leader of the group and you know what you're doing, there won't be any fighting over skills.
If you know what you're doing but the leader doesn't and won't listen to reason, you should leave. Why board a sinking ship?
If the leader know's what s/he's doing but you don't, you'll either follow his/her instructions or refuse and get kicked.
If neither of you know what you're doing, no amount of griefing will make the situation any better
If both the leader of the group and you know what you're doing, there won't be any fighting over skills.
If you know what you're doing but the leader doesn't and won't listen to reason, you should leave. Why board a sinking ship?
If the leader know's what s/he's doing but you don't, you'll either follow his/her instructions or refuse and get kicked.
If neither of you know what you're doing, no amount of griefing will make the situation any better
Tijger
Quote:
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Originally Posted by stueyman2099
The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.
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I've played the final mission in Prophecies without Winter as well, which everyone considers a must, and did it just as easily as with Winter.
Many PvE 'wisdoms' are quite often the result of people reading something on a forum and considering that the ultimate without keeping an open mind or trusting that players might have come up with something that will work as well.
I've never asked anyone to ping their build, if someone is crap and we get wiped, well, so be it, seems to me thats the only way to learn how to play the game.
Navaros
In my view PUGs that actually bother checking builds are the very few competent PUGs that exist.
Usually, PUG players are so bad that they cannot succeed with Heroes/Henchies even though doing so is extremely easy if one understands the game --- which is why they are in a PUG in the first place. Therefore most of the time PUG players do not bother checking anyone's build simply because the PUG leader is not a good player, does not understand the game, and doesn't know what a good or bad build is if he sees it pinged. So he doesn't bother asking to see builds merely because he's a bad player.
Therefore, if you in a PUG and someone asks to see your build, be thankful that you are possibly in one of the very few competent PUGs out there. Be thankful the good players asking to see your build are actually bothering to PUG with you when it would be much easier and much faster for them to make a much better party out of Heroes and/or Henchmen instead of PUGing with you.
Usually, PUG players are so bad that they cannot succeed with Heroes/Henchies even though doing so is extremely easy if one understands the game --- which is why they are in a PUG in the first place. Therefore most of the time PUG players do not bother checking anyone's build simply because the PUG leader is not a good player, does not understand the game, and doesn't know what a good or bad build is if he sees it pinged. So he doesn't bother asking to see builds merely because he's a bad player.
Therefore, if you in a PUG and someone asks to see your build, be thankful that you are possibly in one of the very few competent PUGs out there. Be thankful the good players asking to see your build are actually bothering to PUG with you when it would be much easier and much faster for them to make a much better party out of Heroes and/or Henchmen instead of PUGing with you.
NeHoMaR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bokken
I'm curious. When we are in the same group, why do you feel that you have the right to pick apart my build and ask me to (or worse, DEMAND that I) make changes?
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around
PvP is what PVE would be like if it were balanced. The builds that work in PvP usually will work in PvE.
A11Eur0
I can imagine this is the monk I saw yesterday with 3 divine favor spells on his bar without any divine favor attribute, along with resurrect AND rebirth at the same time.
Get over it. If your build sucks, people are going to tell you. If you get alot of people telling you your build sucks, then I guess you best realize it sucks.
Get over it. If your build sucks, people are going to tell you. If you get alot of people telling you your build sucks, then I guess you best realize it sucks.
Vamis Threen
Next time, just bring cautery signet like the guy wanted you to.
WinterSnowblind
I can't really argue about this, unless I know what your actual build is. I do hate it when people try and force their own play methods on other people, but like others have already said, if you were attempting to do a difficult mission, and you were using a bad build, then they did have the right to tell you to change things up. After all, Guild Wars is all about working in a team.
I don't think people need to be so rude, or demanding about it, but for example, if I'm trying to do something like the Gate of Madness, I often kick people if they're using bad builds. There's no point in taking people like that just to be polite, because we'll just fail the mission, wasting a good deal of time.
I don't think people need to be so rude, or demanding about it, but for example, if I'm trying to do something like the Gate of Madness, I often kick people if they're using bad builds. There's no point in taking people like that just to be polite, because we'll just fail the mission, wasting a good deal of time.
Cebe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by vaxmor
I agree with OP - I hate it when ppl criticise me (W/MO) for taking mending + healing breeze.
They dont understand thats what a paladin is supposed to do - heal and do massive dmg with powerful skillz like 100 blades. whenever ppl criticise my choice of Mending + healing breeze I just laugh at them for not having a 14-20 12%hex crystalline sword like mine. |
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
In response to the Original Post. Some skills are - more helpful than others - in specific missions. For instance, in Abaddon's Gate, Cautery Signet and Martyr work well, whereas Extinguish will also *suffice*, but is not as good.
I feel there is a balance when it comes to sorting out a team's build. It is ok to request certain skills, and point out why they are important / beneficial, but it should never be demanded. Neither should anyone have the right to completely change anyone else's build...as in re-write the build from scratch, such as insisting an Ele plays Earth Magic when they've only ever known Fire Magic.
For example, In my mind, it would be ok to ask a Mesmer if they could take Power Block into Gate of Pain, because it can shut down a Dryder, but it would be out of order to demand that the Mesmer switched from Illusion to Domination is order to take said skill.
Sometimes I will try to help players who are clearly new to playing a profession, such as an Ele, who clearly hasn't heard of Glyphs or Attunements because after 1+ year of GW experience you know that they will spam "My energy is 5 of 102!" after a few minutes. Some people accept what I suggest, and some people ignore me. If they ignore me I don't push it, although if the party looks doomed I will on occaision opt to leave before the mission begins.
Unfortunately some people in this game think they know everything. Those are often the same people who have Mending on their bar.
MrFuzzles
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tijger
I've played the final mission in Prophecies without Winter as well, which everyone considers a must, and did it just as easily as with Winter.
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If he doesn't have a good reason for bringing it (I won't ask people to buy skills, and their build might be good enough to warrant all 8 skills), I will kindly ask him to leave. If he flies off the wall and starts lecturing me that winter is a noob skill because you can learn it early in the game, I will boot him and consider it good riddance of someone who joins a team but is completely unwilling to work in one.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tijger
I've never asked anyone to ping their build, if someone is crap and we get wiped, well, so be it, seems to me thats the only way to learn how to play the game.
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If you get wiped, it doesn't have to mean that someone is crap, it could mean that your team build is awkward. Maybe you have 5 healers, 2 utility and one DD. Maybe you have 4 tanks, 2 healers and no DD's, maybe the two monks are both smiters, the possibilites are infinite.
Everyone pinging their build and adapting them based on what the others are using is just so incredibly efficient and easy to do (I'm thinking in basic terms here - simply removing double ranger spirits and designating a puller/tank, and figuring out if you have a basic amount of damage and heals), that I don't understand why people shun it *so* much.
Exoudeous
Fact is people dont like to lose, and if your build is really horrible then you need to fix it or leave the group.
I dont require people have cookie cutter crap, but just sue soemthing that actually works.
however, in end game areas like DoA, Id rather the person use a proven build simply because those areas take to long, and nothing is worse then spending over an hour to only lose.
I dont require people have cookie cutter crap, but just sue soemthing that actually works.
however, in end game areas like DoA, Id rather the person use a proven build simply because those areas take to long, and nothing is worse then spending over an hour to only lose.
Kool Pajamas
Quote:
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Originally Posted by longhornrob
So earlier today I had an encounter in AB that went something like this:
me: could you ping your build real quick? ele: ping me: is mark of rodgort necessary? you already have immolate/searing flames ele: yes, it helps set others on fire also me: ... well, that may be true, but in that case you should pack fireball or firestorm. ele: what? firestorm is so noob. you're a noob. i'm outta here. *leaves group* Was that you, Bokken? |
But i prefer SH over SF in AB anyway, but thats just me.
Performance Pudding
Quote:
| Urgoz lately, explaining to us how we're idiots for not taking a tank. |
post seemed kinda like b**** fest but ya.
Yichi
and just what praytell do you use in your builds that makes them as efficient and useful as known, proven builds that most people would like you to run....
im actually curious. So say I was to ask you to run a searing flames ele and you wanted to run something different, what are the other 3 or so skills are you goign to run in place to the standard searing flames bar that will make that build NOT suck complete ass and still work as effectively?
im actually curious. So say I was to ask you to run a searing flames ele and you wanted to run something different, what are the other 3 or so skills are you goign to run in place to the standard searing flames bar that will make that build NOT suck complete ass and still work as effectively?
Moloch Vein
What this sounds like is a real bad player who hates when other people call him out on his bs. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying that's the impression.
A good player is never afraid of pinging his build or to defend it if necessary.
A good player is never afraid of pinging his build or to defend it if necessary.
tmakinen
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MistressYichi
say I was to ask you to run a searing flames ele and you wanted to run something different, what are the other 3 or so skills are you goign to run in place to the standard searing flames bar that will make that build NOt suck complete ass?
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In Domain of Secrets it's hard to beat the combo Mind Blast + Immolate (take +30 energy wand and focus set) - because of the energy denial environment SF is just not feasible.
In AB I have a very different fire build that I won't discuss here
stueyman2099
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Well, most of the time the core of my nuking build is Glyph of Sacrifice - Meteor Shower - Liquid Flame - Assassin's Promise.
In Domain of Secrets it's hard to beat the combo Mind Blast + Immolate (take +30 energy wand and focus set) - because of the energy denial environment SF is just not feasible. In AB I have a very different fire build that I won't discuss here |
Yichi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Well, most of the time the core of my nuking build is Glyph of Sacrifice - Meteor Shower - Liquid Flame - Assassin's Promise.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
In Domain of Secrets it's hard to beat the combo Mind Blast + Immolate (take +30 energy wand and focus set) - because of the energy denial environment SF is just not feasible.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
In AB I have a very different fire build that I won't discuss here
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Gneppe
I hit people right in the face with facts if they have a bad build.
I don't care.
I want to complete that mission and if the other monk who joined the team has Mending, Healing Breeze or other really really bad monk skills, i ask if they could change them. If they wont, or if i sence that they have absolute no idea about what job they have as a monk i leave/kick them (if i am the leader).
(monk i just an example proffession)
I know this is harsh, but i actually dont care. I do not feel like doing the same mission over and over because of 1 bad skillbar/player.
So therefore take it as a help instead of immediately thinking
"omg they hate me and my bar they can go f themselves"
We are actually advising you on good skillcombos.
// Sorry for my bad english.
I don't care.
I want to complete that mission and if the other monk who joined the team has Mending, Healing Breeze or other really really bad monk skills, i ask if they could change them. If they wont, or if i sence that they have absolute no idea about what job they have as a monk i leave/kick them (if i am the leader).
(monk i just an example proffession)
I know this is harsh, but i actually dont care. I do not feel like doing the same mission over and over because of 1 bad skillbar/player.
So therefore take it as a help instead of immediately thinking
"omg they hate me and my bar they can go f themselves"
We are actually advising you on good skillcombos.
// Sorry for my bad english.
stueyman2099
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gneppe
I hit people right in the face with facts if they have a bad build.
I don't care. I want to complete that mission and if the other monk who joined the team has Mending, Healing Breeze or other really really bad monk skills, i ask if they could change them. If they wont, or if i sence that they have absolute no idea about what they're job is as a monk i leave/kick them (if i am the leader). (monk i just an example proffession) I know this is harsh, but i actually dont care. I do not feel like doing the same mission over and over because of 1 bad skillbar/player. So therefore take it as a help instead of immediately thinking "omg they hate me and my bar they can go f themselves" We are actually advising you on good skillcombos. // Sorry for my bad english. |
As for the second part, I always try to make my arguements towards skills rational and logical. When I tell monks healing breeze is bad, I don't say it's bad, I say it does the same thing as heal other over time and is worse than heal other for that reason. Mending is bad becuase it's only 6hp/second, and that ammonts to very very little. [insert fire elite here] is bad becuase searing flames owns it for dd in 90% of situations.
zwei2stein
Winter is fine example.
Is it necesary? No way.
Does it help: A lot!
Is it worth one skill slot: Hell yeah.
Can any other skill that ranger can bring more important than that? No way.
All that boils to fact that requesting that skill is perfectly fine, while not taking it sounds ... suboptimal at least.
There is no valid excuse for not taking this skill in Hells, and if you get ranger refusing to bring it, you can kick him safely because you wont miss that person at all.
Is it necesary? No way.
Does it help: A lot!
Is it worth one skill slot: Hell yeah.
Can any other skill that ranger can bring more important than that? No way.
All that boils to fact that requesting that skill is perfectly fine, while not taking it sounds ... suboptimal at least.
There is no valid excuse for not taking this skill in Hells, and if you get ranger refusing to bring it, you can kick him safely because you wont miss that person at all.
Effendi Westland
^Haha, yes winter is an great example, especially on Hell's Precipe. I remember the good old days, pugging that mission in the early evening. Posting GLF Ranger with winter, a ranger joins, "Do you have winter?", "Why? it sucks", "We have two fire eles and it helps them alot", "Hmmm ok". We enter, I ask him to place winter during first fights, he places Favorable winds while our eles go "Why did you ask me to go fire, fire damage sucks here."
Hehe, yes I thought that too, though the OP doesn't state which mission it is I'm assuming it's either Abaddon's gate or the domain of anguish elite mission. In both cases build discussion is the sensible thing to do. And as long as the team leader gives a reasonable explenation why a skill is better then another I would allways change it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vamis Threen
Next time, just bring cautery signet like the guy wanted you to.
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Sophitia Leafblade
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
In response to the Original Post. Some skills are - more helpful than others - in specific missions. For instance, in Abaddon's Gate, Cautery Signet and Martyr work well, whereas Extinguish will also *suffice*, but is not as good.
I feel there is a balance when it comes to sorting out a team's build. It is ok to request certain skills, and point out why they are important / beneficial, but it should never be demanded. Neither should anyone have the right to completely change anyone else's build...as in re-write the build from scratch, such as insisting an Ele plays Earth Magic when they've only ever known Fire Magic. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Unfortunately some people in this game think they know everything. Those are often the same people who have Mending on their bar.
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unienaule
If you must know, it's because so many people are incredibly terrible at Guild Wars. However, this thread is pro flamebait, and as such is closed.