Wiki's fault?

So usually i use heroes and hench to get done what I need to get done. Since (for better and worse) HM has occassionally taken me out of my tab/spacebar mantra (some of it is still pretty tab/spacebar-safe) and required me to actually use people for some of the missions (at least the ones where masters is time-sensative), I've noticed a new phenomenon of, "I don't know anything about (profession X) but the Wiki and popular gossip tell me that blah-blah-blah is the best elite and lah-dee-dah is the best, "build".

Has anyone who pugs a lot noticed this or did I join an alliance with some really stupid people in it? I guess I've been pretty sheltered too since I only really play my ranger in HM...i ping my build usually and nobody says anything...but I've joined groups recently where people have demanded particular builds or skill combos that were completely stupid and/or irrelevant for the mission at hand.

Has anyone else noticed an increase in this kind of behavior?
Is it universal that the people that know how to play your class the least are the ones that insist you take their build the most?

Anyone else agree that someone who tells you that [wiki]barrage[/wiki] is the best ranger move in the game has obviously never played a ranger?

actually...everry ranger who caps barrage for the first time thinks it's the best ranger skill in the game for about a month at most before they realize it's about the worst ranger skill in the game ([wiki]otyugh's cry[/wiki] was changed so it's no longer the worst ranger skill in the game) and the wiki definition still has the old description.

Here we go again.

not news, just eleetist who prob wrote the wiki themselves. Dont like it don't PuG, leave said PuG, or join an alliance/guild with people who are more openminded.

What has elitism got to do with anything?

voltar, i fully agree... our guild recruits from only pugs... and i make sure i pug at least 1 or 2 times a week... last 2 months, ive recruited noone, but i sure have a stronger love for my guildies....

so tired of hearing... well the wiki says... then i usualy comment, yes the wiki says that, but the wiki got standard on this mission....

eek i posted on ur dupe thread...

I'm one of those wiki followers for pugs, I just like to point out things and have the team prepared for said events. Better to go in prepared then blind and unaware of the dangers.

This works for like Gate of Madness, where you NEED stance removal, and where Spoil Victor pretty much owns him. In other missions, is it just pointless because they are easy enough as it is. Horribly bad builds though....yeah.

anyone who berates my build and insists that I bring something else = eleetist IMO.

Now there are paces where some group builds are tried and true. gates of madness and deep are two of those said places. Other then that, build should suit the players. Only build I ever critisize are fire builds on fire Island and MM where there are no real exploitable corpses.

This has been around ever since wiki and guru became popular. The thing I personally don't like is the trade illusions that people believe in. "but guru said this thing costs 100k", "guru says 10k I sell for 5k"... and etc. The truth is people trust these sites way too much. There is no arguing about the info I have found here and in wiki, but sometimes it justs misleads people. I haven't seen anyone insisting on me using a particular build just because wiki said so, but I have definitely met some people that just asked for a build and kicked me If I disagreed. In such cases I just make my own party for missions. It's normal when you ask someone to be a MM/SS necro for example but asking for a particular skillbar with weird skills just because you read it in a site is plain stupid. When these skills actually make the missions way easier it's OK. Same thing goes for prices. The majority of ppl trusts guru for a price check. We all know that most of the green item prices are really outdated (at least they used to be, I haven't checked it lately) and almost everyone claims that "wiki said" what the price of everything is. Too bad they don't realize how wrong they are in some cases. I consider such guys amateur traders. And these "tempting offers" - wiki says 10k but I sell for 5k... IDK if people actually go for that. Big mistake. Anyways, my point is that this syndrome has been around for a long time. Don't take it personally, just ignore such players and make your own party for example. Or consider the possibility that the build they want you to use is working fine. But when it seems crazy just move on and leave the idiot leader alone. :P

Most people are elitist because most pugs in pve have really bad players who think barrage with apply poison is good.

So if you ping a build that I know would suck for whatever area and I say "The build won't work here" that makes me elitist?

I'd at least take the time to try and explain why it sucked I guess, but for you to not take constructive criticism is something you might want to reconsider.

Best comment in the entire thread.

I have been in enough pugs to know that there are some people forming groups that don't know WTF they are talking about... just the same there are lots of people who run builds that make me think that they are at LEAST 1/2 retarded... so I don't know if the person was a moron or if your build really did suck... but either could be the case.... btw like others have said, this is nothing new at all.

WTF? LOL..that statement is just so wrong. While I support individual builds and people using them, sometimes cookie cutter is best.

Barrage is far from the worst elite in the game.

It is the only spammable ranger AoE skill and has decent damage, does not cause scatter, and spikes with splinter weapon.

There are other "good" ranger elites, yes. I dont critique ranger builds unless they bring somethning useless like Laceration.

There are only so many skills in the game and it is natural for perferred builds to surface over time.

Being elitist implies that there is a superior option (build), and if there is a better build for a certain area, then heck ya I will be elitist.

Anet has said that HM missions can be completed with mastery with H/H teams - no other humans required. If you are having difficulty, perhaps you should rethink your team build.

Key word = berate. Constructive critisism is great. anyone who suggest something and works with me on a build and can give constructive feedback on why changes should be made and listen to what I say is great. I have learned alot from constructive PuGs and guildies.

However blindly saying you build sucks cause wiki says so is not constructive or benifitial for the person to learn from.

To malace, I understand cookie cutter builds work. Read my whole post pls. I refuse to goto into the deep without the Steel wall group build. I understand that, but the mentality that the whole game has to be played with cookie cutter build is just crap.

Wow, PUGs are bad? Most people in Guild Wars don't have a clue what they're doing? I HAD NO IDEA.

As for barrage sucking, Splinter Weapon-Barrage says hi. Barrage was good even before that though, definitely not the "worst ranger skill ever."

It's not a "fault" at all. Fault implies something negative. Not having to rely on horrible PUG players thanks to Heroes is a blessing, not a fault. If it was to be anyone's fault, it is the fault of the vast majority of PUG players who quite frankly are, always have been, and always will be, utterly horrible and a waste of time to play with.

As I posted in another thread yesterday about the same thing which got closed I shall post here too since it's the same subject:

In my view PUGs that actually bother checking builds are the very few competent PUGs that exist.

Usually, PUG players are so bad that they cannot succeed with Heroes/Henchies even though doing so is extremely easy if one understands the game --- which is why they are in a PUG in the first place. Therefore most of the time PUG players do not bother checking anyone's build simply because the PUG leader is not a good player, does not understand the game, and doesn't know what a good or bad build is if he sees it pinged. So he doesn't bother asking to see builds merely because he's a bad player.

Therefore, if you in a PUG and someone asks to see your build, be thankful that you are possibly in one of the very few competent PUGs out there. Be thankful the good players asking to see your build are actually bothering to PUG with you when it would be much easier and much faster for them to make a much better party out of Heroes and/or Henchmen instead of PUGing with you.

The thing is that "elitist" doesn't really capture the vibe. These people are friggin stupid. That's my point (unfortunately both of these were alliance groups)...It's the "SF is the only ele elite for heroes" and "barrage is the best ranger move in the game" people. The ones who rely on wiki to tell them what the "best move in the game" is since they don't know on their own from actually playing that profession. That's what I'm talking about. Stupid people that jerk off to the wiki...not people that tell you that "12 prot, 12 healing, 3 df" is a bad idea. That is a bad idea. That is something that if..."vetted by the wiki community"...would become the only monk build allowed.

That's the mentality I'm talking about. I'm not talking about defending bad builds.

To clarify:

One group was for (I think) Kodonur Crossroads (the one with all the centaurs). That's a tab/spacebar mission in NM. I joined a group that got wiped at the first mob...I suggested switching to [wiki]broadhead arrow[/wiki] to compensate for the lack of dps on the rest of the group's part. I was told adamantly to switch to some redundant "interrupt-only" build that wouldn't really work with 3/4 sec prot monk casts. I left the group and beat that mission with hero/hench.
That group-leader was an obsidian tank. He was useless and an idiot who shoved irrelevant wiki builds down our throats.

The other group was for Sunjiang District. This guy wanted Slinter/Barrage. Any ranger primary will tell you that barrage sucks, no matter how you candy-coat it with non-runed attributes. I was compliant in this group and did my mild to mediocre aoe damage to easily healed targets and got a lot of really small yellow numbers (and "miss" over the heads of the sins since i wasn't allowed to single-target dps them down like I would've wanted to). This group wiped on the ranger portal (the second one) and I hero'd it with a friend afterward (didn't beat the mission because we steamrolled the trash mobs and kept the momentum going for the 4 end-game bosses which (lamely on our part) aggro'd them all).

The point is that people are incredibly gung-ho on skills that they hear are good and shove lame builds down your throat even though they have no idea what they're tallking about. This isn't an "elitist" issue. I'd probably be one of the elitists.

ditto the WTF. what was the point of that rambling? Guru price checks are done by members and Mods that watch the markets in game and quote prices accordingly, if you dont like the price quote you got thats your problem or your item was merch food and you just didnt want to hear it.

Nope. Not the issue. Maybe I was unclear but that really has nothing to do with this post. I (an avid pug-hater...gimme 7 heroes!) have been in a few of the most awesome pugs ever (masters with one of my mesmers (on Sunjiang District as a matter of fact) with 3 sins and no healers (rit was channeling).

most pugs suck...yeah...not the issue. This is about obstinate foolishness, not the state of the average player. This is about: I don't have a necro character...I shouldn't shove lame necro builds down a necro's throat since I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

But it is an elitist issue, just of a different form. These guys don't know what they are doing, which is why I didn't bother spelling it right, but insist that they do know. Much like the PuG insisting on a MM in Naphui Quarter. You tell them that there are minimal corpses to exploit and once the tutrle is taken down, his essances exploit corpses faster then most player MM, due to cast times of Minion skill vs wells skills. then the arguement occures.

IMO: both are elitists to a point but the guy who says that MM become largely ineffective, esp when compared to SS, SV or orther curses/blood builds, has a clue and should be listened too. The other guy read somewhere that the MM is a staple in a group, prob from Wiki, and insists that there be one.

See my point here. I call the 2nd guy the Eleetist cause he knows everything and is just such a leet player

I deplore the wiki-cutter mentality many people in GW have (Especially outside of elite mission areas). The wiki has some good information about what you'll face in missions/explorable areas, but it is extremely limited in scope regarding how to succeed against the things you'll face when out and about. I'd prefer NOT to party-up with people who go strictly by the wiki, it just shows their limited experience and noobishness.

The fact of the matter is that there are many team builds that can be just as successful as the wiki-cutter builds.

In the thread that was started yesterday about this very subject, people are saying the same things - suggestions are fine, dictating isn't.

As for Barrage - It's a great skill in places where large groups lurk, but I sure wouldn't want it in the Mission where you kill Varesh! There are many, many, many skills that aren't much good in the majority of areas you go, but are extremely useful in certian situations - Winter in the Fire Islands, Greater Conflageration in the Shiverpeaks (ice imps hate that one), etc.

I dig what you're saying, Healers (though I think I used an MM on that one for masters in hm...just killed the turtles first (effing turtles...hate them...hate the turtles! 1 year of luxon faction....effing turtles!)...think that was even one of the hard modes I did with a friend and his heroes...where we spent the whole time talking about something else on teamspeak) and I guess there's 2 different kinds of elitism...Elitism (which I can respect...but keeps me from getting into a HA group) and eleetism (e1337ism?) which i guess is the question I have.

I also don't want to come off with the Wiki-hating mentality. I use pvxwiki for classes that I'm less comfortable too play (dervish? paragon? assassin?) but it's the ignorance as gospel wiki-fundamentalists that I'm talking about.

Okay, so you know most PUGs suck, and you are an avid PUG-hater, which is great. Yet, knowing this, why are you still wasting your time playing with them? The grief you are experience from these issues , which is caused by horrible PUG players who have no clue about the game, are exactly why as of NF most good players started using Heroes/Hench or Friends/Guildies exclusively and would never anymore PUG upon pain of death.

If these PUGs weren't telling you what "wrong" builds to run, then they would instead be telling you and everyone else in the party nothing at all, which leads to the 7 other horrible players in the party having incredibly whacky, horrible skillbars and your PUG will fail anyways. Which is no better than the situation you are complaining about.

You are subjecting yourself to this by bothering to join PUG parties. Why not simply just never do so? Then these issues will remain where they belong: solely on the backs of people who don't understand and are good not enough at the game to succeed with Heroes/Henchies thus must party with each other. Birds of a feather flock together. If you have a better feather, don't flock with them.

I had a dupe thread? I know you were petty gungho on the armbrace duping but I never got into it.

I like the way your guild recruits. You should put Vol Tar on your friends list and invite me to a pug sometime

I like looking up what I will face in a mission before I head in. I do not insist on following the wiki 100%. You have to admit, some information on the wikis is very useful. Like any situation, one needs to know how to improvise.

In cases where I don't know anything but information from wiki about a mission, I prefer to listen to a person who claim to know what he/she is talking about, and not question it unless we actually failed. THEN, I will suggest to the team to try a "wiki way". Usually works out.

My motto has aways been, trust everyone until they prove to be a liar.

It wasn't about PuGs, bro. Both the idiots in question were alliance. That's (once again) not the point of the post. The point (once again) was that the least informed were the most vocal. I could never again join (what actually did end up turning into a pug but...once again...that's not the point of the post)

so far: Max Gladius, Healers Whisper and Kook~NBK~ got the point. Hopefully someone who hasn't posted but would've perpetrated the error also got the point. We as individuals can't heal the whole world but we can tighten a couple of loose screws in the machine. That's the point.

And (once again) I'm not Wiki-hating. If I wasn't all over the Wiki, I wouldn't know what these clowns were doing.

I kinda get the point. Some people think that their build is the best, even if the entire world says it isn't.

I'm glad I'm not part of that group. you want to run a build, fine. If you fail when you run that build, DO NOT FRIGGEN BLAME THE PEOPLE WHO SAID IT WOULD FAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I always wanted to say that.

Interrupts only builds suck in Kodonur if you can't interrupt 3/4s casts very well. if you can, well, rock on.

Did I hit the nail on the head?

And don't party with those guys anymore. sounds like it's irritating...

I think the point that Voltar is trying to make that some of you are missing(and please correct me if i'm wrong on this), is that he's frustrated that people are having the intelligence handed to them, but don't have the wisdom to use it correctly.

I share in your frustration and have had many pug's wipe because of blindly following instructions without looking at the situation. I guess the question is, you can give out all the knowledge you want, but how do you teach them to use it correctly? This seems to be a large obstacle for wiki-zealots because their general mentality is to believe what they read word for word.

"Wiki says that frenzy is the only skill that will kill kunnavang, everyone load up frenzy(yes, even you monks) and lets go. I'll kick you from the party if you don't have frenzy lol"

^Yes, I know this is an extreme exaguration.

Unienaule, didn't you close a similar thread to this yesterday? Why not this one? - it's the same debate - admittedly the OP's avatar's pretty cool - but no new issues.

I really don't care about having specific cookie cutter builds, but come on, if you have 2 monks in a pretty hard mission and one of them has Healing Breeze, or smite skills, I'm going to either kick them or tell them to change it. W/Mos with breeze are going to be told to get a real build or get out; basically, anyone with stupid or obviously retarded builds will be told that. I know what works, and I can tell a good rogue build (a non-cookie cutter), and I'm fine with those, as long as it works. But come on, each build needs to pull its own weight and idiots who decide to not ping and/or go off and run their own build need to learn to play or uninstall Guild Wars. If you have 6 in each elemental attribute as an Elementalist, I'll be giving you a better build.

I'd like to get things done the first time, thanks.

I'm just confused about.... barrage being the worst ranger elite in the game. (PvE-wise)

It's like driver's syndrome. Everyone but you doesn't know how to drive. This is the exact same thing and it is as patently ridiculous.

Sometimes people do insist in logical things. For example, if you know the area is known to have a lot of hexers ask the healers to bring good/strong/adecuate hex removal. Lots of archers or stances, ask people to bring stuff to get rid of stances, etc. This is not elitist.
Out of the blue suggestions, like don't go MM do SS instead, when there's no real reason to follow are annoying but not necessarily elitist.

This guy complains about people saying what the best builds are and then states that a skill is the worst skill in the game and has no use anywhere?

You are a ranger.....and you say Barrage is the worst elite? Urgoz joins Splinter Barrage in asking WTF?

People who are new to a profession in the game like to have a way to not have to grind through a mission with different builds before they find the right one. Guru and Wiki offer that. From what I've seen, Guru has been very up-to-date and accurate in builds and missions(wipes Guru nut off chin). A lot of good players with tons of time post builds here, and a lot of other excellent players check them out in the game for validity. Wiki tends to be a bit more dated, but is good for missions and the basics.

Yeah, there are ignorant people who don't know what an update nerf is, or that some AoE skills cause aggro. Try to educate them with a chat. If they throw you, don't worry. I am sure at least one of them saw what you had to say, and when they all come back from terrible mission wipe, you can pick them up in your own group.

It's OK to vent about frustrating situations. Just don't generalize when you do it.

And seriously, Barrage is the worst, with Archer's Signet around?

I believe he was referring to having Barrage and Apply Poison. They cancel each other out don't they?

KANE

Barrage is a good elite if paired with things to enhance it such as...

-Splinter Weapon (Best choice)
-Brutal Weapon
-Conjur Fire/Water/Lightning

But, by no means is it the best elite.

To Evilsod: I don't see where the OP mentioned Apply Poison with Barrage.

I never, NEVER would say Barrage is the best elite in the game. I do that and I'll give you my Drago's. I'm just saying it isn't the worst elite, not with Incendiary Arrows, Acher's Signet, and Expert's Dexterity lying around.

Oh, and he mentioned Otyugh's Cry as an elite, which, ummm, isn't an elite.