How will Masochism change the Necromancer class?

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

After looking through the recent skill additions in GW:EN and having the opportunity to play with them, it is very obvious that none of the N skills are even remotely as important as Masochism. It is a ground-breaking skill and I believe it will change a LOT of Necromancer builds.

Some things to consider:

The penalty of Vampiric Spirit can be completely negated with Masochism while using sacrificing skills.

Cultist's Fervor in combination with Masochism creates a godly energy engine for powering high-cost spells, possibly from other caster schools.

BiPpers will love bringing the skill in many areas.

MMs, especially enchantment-reliant MMs, will find the skill extremely useful and it might even replace Signet of Lost Souls.

Discuss.

Kindly, Moloch

[EDIT: Sorry. This thread was meant for PvE Necromancer Forum. If anyone can move it I would be grateful.]

danielsfbay

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2007

I grabbed every Necro skill they offered without haste. I dont remember seeing Masochism...Is it from Soul Reaping? What does it do?

Elena

Elena

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Belgium

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Masochism

For 30 seconds, you gain 1...3 Energy whenever you sacrifice Health.

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

Why would this be useful to an MM? They only have Blood of the Master, signet of lost souls is far more useful.

gene terrodon

gene terrodon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

Maryland/DC Area

Farmers Unite [FU]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Why would this be useful to an MM? They only have Blood of the Master, signet of lost souls is far more useful.
Wrong...SoLS is conditional....and only works if your target is less than 50% health.
Masochism in unconditional and will allow you to spam Blood of the master and, with vamp horrors, not really worry about health or energy.

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

Its conditional to 50% health on a foe... how in gods name is that hard to achieve, if your struggling to get a foe below 50% health then your a very, very bad MM or you just walked into a protted ele nuker who would kill them all.

Performance Pudding

Performance Pudding

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

post ascalon

Over The [Wall]

W/

like the other 2 times new skills were introduced pvp will become even more fun withering aura is gona be great

Doucet

Doucet

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

League of Commanders[LoC]

Anet will catch onto the power of this skill and nerf it in some way sooner or later, but it will be fun while it lasts

street peddler

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Atrophy is the most interesting new skill for necros, or just in general.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Its conditional to 50% health on a foe... how in gods name is that hard to achieve, if your struggling to get a foe below 50% health then your a very, very bad MM or you just walked into a protted ele nuker who would kill them all. Let me explain since you obviously aren't familiar with the builds or the idea behind them.

Enchantment-reliant MMs are relying on Mystic Regeneration, and thus Masochism would provide them with one more +3. These MMs place high value on maintaining their army thus they make frequent use of BoTM. Signet Of Lost Souls can only be cast 1 time per 8 seconds, and that IS at an optimum, whatever you may say about people sucking because they can't kill people. Any decent MM running Aura of the Lich will use BoTM far more frequently than that, even and especially during battle. The energy return is much higher. Order of Undeath is also a sacrifice spell.

ValaOfTheFens

ValaOfTheFens

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2006

Warrior Nation[WN]

I'm looking forward to testing it in FoW. Monks are always like "My Energy is x of x" like 50 times and its bad enough that I've died BR'ing them while Awaken The Blood is active but I gotta give up 10 of my energy. So I'll be able to keep both Monks BR'ed and make sure I don't bottom out myself. MMs don't really need it but I have to say it will be strong in Tomb, especially in HM. Those Scythe of Chaos are constantly casting Mind Wrack!

pingu666

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

guildhall

[DETH]

looks great to me, makes me feel sory for mesmers tho, no easy energy for them.

sols is subject to aftercast, so i often lose a potential use cos the target goes from +50 to dead too fast :P

Kas

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Order of Undeath is also a sacrifice spell.
Quote:
"Lose 2% of your maximum Health" is not considered sacrifice. Source: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Order_of_undeath And it's good that it does not count. Else it would be downright insane, even more imba than the old Soul Reaping Mechanism and if this for some reason does work, it needs to be nerfed asap.

Pwny Ride

Pwny Ride

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Aussieland

Prime Players Of [OSHA] ~ [dth] alliance. <3

Me/E

And Hexer's Vigour hasnt sparked any remote interest? I'm pretty sure Hexers Vigour, being imba, will have more of an impact.

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

So, PvE MMs now need energy management? hahaha, come on! MMs can absolutely ignore they actually have an energy bar, lol.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
If an MM can "ignore he has an energy bar" he is running a suboptimal build. Agreed. The best MM bars use every bit of that energy. Not to mention, it entirely depends on how much damage your minions are taking and how often you have to heal them. Order of Undeath MMing eats up energy like there's no tomorrow, too. Course, it's more fun, IMO

Graphik Desine

Graphik Desine

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2006

N/

in PvE terms--considering the addition of hardmode and other more difficult monsters (release of gwen), my usage of minions is starting to go down the toilet.
unless i am doing something in the easy missions, or normal mode missions (where lots of clutter is necessary), i find myself spamming hexes (ss, etc) instead--which new spells such as atrophy are fabulous, and can also be pretty devastating in pvp if used at crucial times...

if high soul reaping points are a given, i lean more towards what the other skills have to offer, so i don't have to put an extra energy management skill in ._.

but that's my opinion. trying new strategies to builds...

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

I mean as Minion Master I am normally full energy all time, with 10 minions plus spamming Blood of the Master, so I can ignore my energy bar because I am doing the right job with a healthy horde of minions and never see the not enough energy message. Soul Reaping is overpowered as hell.

The thing I am waiting impatiently is not Masochism skill, but the 3rd necro hero!! 3 necros FULL of energy all the time look plenty good for anything I wanna do, plus Blood is Power, oh! God! I will cry of happiness! or of overpowerness? <- not sure if that word actually exist.

Kas

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
If an MM can "ignore he has an energy bar" he is running a suboptimal build.

Oh, and edit:

"Order Of Undeath: Skill details: Sacrifice 10% of your maximum Health. For 5 seconds..." Read the notes.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

Could someone please move this thread to Necromancer - PvE forum? It's where it belongs.

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

Pfah...

Necromancers have enough energy management anyway.
Soul Reaping gives a chunk in itself.
The signet may be conditional but works very nicely.

A meagre 1-3 energy for every health sacrifice ... or even 4 if high enough soul reaping... isn't even going to be noticed for anything other than maybe Cultist's Fervor.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

SotiCoto, are you able to run an MM with constant coverage of Order of Undeath with no energy management and no energy problems?

Until you can, don't claim we couldn't use more energy.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

Again, I am please asking a moderator to move this thread to Necro PvE forum.

Muspellsheimr

Muspellsheimr

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
SotiCoto, are you able to run an MM with constant coverage of Order of Undeath with no energy management and no energy problems?

Until you can, don't claim we couldn't use more energy. Don't forget to mention that this also allows you to perma-BiP a full 8-player group. That is what I was running during the preview weekend, and it worked wonders.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwny Ride
And Hexer's Vigour hasnt sparked any remote interest? I'm pretty sure Hexers Vigour, being imba, will have more of an impact. I suspect Hexer's Vigor may become very overpowered with Mesmers using Signet of Illusions whilst spamming Illusion Hexes.

Surely it would have to be altered to "ends if you cast no necromancer hexes"

Onto Masochism. Will be insane with Cultist's Ferver and Vampiric Spirit. Looking forward to using it very much, though I feel that this, like many many other Eye of the North skills will be nerfed into oblivion when wammos find out Mending can't outheal their effects in PvP...

cataphract

cataphract

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ashford Abbey

Hey Mallyx [icU]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
I'm looking forward to testing it in FoW. Monks are always like "My Energy is x of x" like 50 times and its bad enough that I've died BR'ing them while Awaken The Blood is active but I gotta give up 10 of my energy. So I'll be able to keep both Monks BR'ed and make sure I don't bottom out myself. MMs don't really need it but I have to say it will be strong in Tomb, especially in HM. Those Scythe of Chaos are constantly casting Mind Wrack! Word of advice: those monks are teh sux and you would do well to stop playing with them.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
After looking through the recent skill additions in GW:EN and having the opportunity to play with them, it is very obvious that none of the N skills are even remotely as important as Masochism. It is a ground-breaking skill and I believe it will change a LOT of Necromancer builds.

Some things to consider:

The penalty of Vampiric Spirit can be completely negated with Masochism while using sacrificing skills.
It does indeed. Too bad vampiric spirit isn't much good outside of RA/TA. "Nearby" is not terribly safe for necros in PvE. And the untargetability of vamp spirit has always bothered me. Maybe for a farm build?

Quote:
Cultist's Fervor in combination with Masochism creates a godly energy engine for powering high-cost spells, possibly from other caster schools. I was using this on a 55 build in the bison tourny during the preview. The infinite energy engine was frighteningly powerful. But, ultimately, it used up both the elite slot and another skill slot, and that left my killing power so low I often had to map out since I couldn't kill strong self-healers.

Quote: BiPpers will love bringing the skill in many areas. I've never known bippers to really need e-management, but, if they do, this would be excellent.

Quote: MMs, especially enchantment-reliant MMs, will find the skill extremely useful and it might even replace Signet of Lost Souls. I absolutely agree on it as a replacement for SoLS. Tabbing around for a low-health foe is time consuming and distracting. Often a target gets healed or dies just as you cast. Sometimes what looks like 50% is really 53% or whatever (though lifebar mods help with that now). All in all, SoLS rarely operates anywhere near it's optimum rate of about 1e/sec. My intuition is that the long-term average on SoLS well under .5e/sec. Tied to the baseline 1 BotM every 6 sec, Maso is good for a consistent, reliable, passive .5e/sec at 12SR. IMO, a consistent, reliable, passive .5 is better than an inconsistent, unreliable active amount that (I think) averages under .5. Even if SoLS, with excellent use, averaged above .5, the reliability, consistency, and passiveness of Maso might put it ahead.

A few other thoughts on the topic of MM's and Maso:

I look at the breakpoints on Maso and I see that 13SR breakpoint, and I wonder if that's worth trying for. That means either a sup SR rune to keep 8 in the self-healing attribute or a major SR rune and only 6 in the self-healing attribute. Hmmmm...

I'm not sure if all of this is moot. I don't use SoLS. I just manage my SR energy very tightly. Generally there's enough for 10 minions, OoU, and a couple of direct damage/utility spells. If SoLS doesn't justify displacing one of those direct damage/utility spells, then I'm not sure Maso will either, even if it's better. Can I make up for giving up one of those direct damage/utility spells with increased OoU spam?

That brings me back to what I said when I first saw this skill. It's a slap in the face to everyone who objected to the SR nerf. "Here, if you play with a 7-slot bar, you can have this nice shiny skill that replaces the SR we took away from you." = pissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
If an MM can "ignore he has an energy bar" he is running a suboptimal build. Agreed, 100%. If you're not using every last drop of energy, you need to improve your build. If you can't even understand that you should be using every last drop of energy, you're an idiot who needs to stop trying to play MM and go back to hamstorm.

Quote:
"Order Of Undeath: Skill details: Sacrifice 10% of your maximum Health. For 5 seconds..." Indeed. The initial use of OoU is a sac, so it will trigger Maso once. I haven't the faintest clue why someone is trying to argue that it won't.

Quote:
Enchantment-reliant MMs are relying on Mystic Regeneration, and thus Masochism would provide them with one more +3. The AotL/mystic regen MM is only worthwhile in AB. At least some of the foes in AB are smart enough to make a beeline for any MM they see, and it does a very good job of not dying to them. In PvE, the foes aren't smart enough to prioritize you over those 10 enticing low-armor meatbags, and you need to worry more about offsetting your life sacs in an energy efficient way than taking hits. If you've already got AotL on your bar, putting the energy into casting AotL on the recharge gets you much, much better life/energy returns than anything you can do by diverting that energy to mystic regen.


One final thought on Maso: It might finally make blood a viable skillline. Blood's always had trouble with energy, even back when SR worked right. Now dark pact and blood of the aggressor spam nearly for free, and for a net gain under cultists fervor. If we can find a way to get some decent DPS out of blood, the energy is finally there to support it.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Energy problems for bipers eventually happen. You usually see someone calling his energy with bip answring call with his low energy.

Masochism enables bip to keep on bipping 24/7 even without stuff dying.

The Lurch

The Lurch

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

In the darkest depths of your mind.

Guilds are for yuppies.

A/

When I read Masochism, I instantly combined it with Cultist's Fervor. Think about it, a necro Nuker. Hed have good energy management with Masochism and Cultist's Fervor, not to mention SoLS and Soul Reaping. The only think he would have an issue with is health, that is if he went straight SR and lets say, Fire Magic.

Moloch Vein

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

Re: Chthon

First, the Bippers. While it's true that in most areas a bipper will seldom if ever run out of energy, it happens frequently in Domain of Anguish, especially in City. There are some powerful energy-denial environmental effects in many areas of Realm of Torment that makes bipping less than a walk in the park.

Second, about the infamous meleemancers. While putting a necromancer on the front line might be very foolish in many instances, there are, actually, ways to make it work by the /D combination. As a test, I used a Mystic-powered N/D melee build with a hero-hench party to complete Hell's Precipice, with the necromancer as the only frontline figure. This worked. (By the way, this was before the release of Eye of the North.)

There are some instances, when you fight with only hero-hench, where it's a huge benefit to be the one leading the charge for strategic purposes.

I resorted to the same strategy while completing a GW:EN Masters quest for Kilroy Stonekin where you had to kill a huge amount of Stone Summit who loved eating up your corpses before the hero-MM could get to them. This time I went with a Vampiric Spirit/Masochism/Mystic build utilizing Verata's Aura as a fourth enchant, and Angorodon's Gaze since I kept getting conditions on me (by the way - Angorodon's obsoletes Vampiric Gaze. Totally.) Initially I tried doing it with my standard SV build but it proved difficult. The melee character swiped it, easily. Again this is a specific advantage of being at the frontline - Verata's simply wouldn't have worked otherwise.

As for the viability of the /D Mystic MM, there's much to be said. I nearly always use /D for MM in every PvE area. It creates an anchor character that is ridiculously stable and hard to kill. However, I never use Aura of the Lich. My specific build is:

Dark Bond - Infuse Condition - Mystic Regeneration - Order of Undeath - Animate Bone Fiend - Animate Bone Horror - Signet Of Lost Souls - Blood of the Master

I have recently replaced Signet with Masochism and this does a better job.

The synergy between Mystic and the maintained enchantments is simply supreme. At 8 Earth Prayers it does a FAR better job healing you in battle than anything Healing Prayers has to offer. It counters degeneration, it muffles damage, it does everything.

Even if you only bring Dark Bond (which most MMs definitely do) and Masochism, Mystic Regeneration will heal you for 18*20=360HP over 20 seconds. This makes it easy to spam BotM and OoU. If you do add the fourth enchant, you pop it up to +12, which makes you have a positive health regeneration while bleeding and burning at the same time. (And as a side note, of course these conditions won't take effect until you've lost your last minion.)

My Olias runs the exact same build as I rarely play MM myself, preferring a Curses/Blood build that is difficult for hero AI to handle properly, and he's the most resistant hero on my team (if you discount the rare instances where I utilize Sousuke as an ele-tank.)

And again, please move this to Necromancer PvE?

Cheers!