I have been playing with the prep Rapid Fire, and have realized that with Marksmanship set to around 8 this prep allows for a IAS prep that lasts for 16 seconds. I mixed this with a freshly won pair of brass knuckles from my buddy Kilroy. Dagger skills and Moebius Strike, and BAM!
Dagger Ranger! A real Dagger Ranger, with prep for IAS and all. Whirling Defense and this prep makes life better. Has anyone else done this?
Rapid Fire with secondary Weapons! It really does work!
Darkpower Alchemist
moko
...and then it has been stated that Rapid Fire only works on bows and is going to be fixed.
remember; this is just a preview. :P
however, if there won't be fixes, or there will be with changes around it..it might be pretty insane, but i'd never take it due to the cast time and spec really.
remember; this is just a preview. :P
however, if there won't be fixes, or there will be with changes around it..it might be pretty insane, but i'd never take it due to the cast time and spec really.
Epinephrine
Say they don't change it -
It's in Marksmanship, so you throw away points in a weapon you won't be using. Even at 16 seconds, you've wasted an 8 in an attribut, and you need to stop for 2 seconds to use it - so you get 16/18 seconds with it active. Assuming that they stand still for it that's only ~25% IAS; using any non-bow they get a chance to flee (well, spears are an exception) so against a kiting foe you lose the pressure.
I see little problem with it - sure, you can get an IAS, but at what cost? If you want any expertise (I assume that is why you'd be ranger primary) and some marksmanship to throw away you are left with few attribute points for your weapon and any survival/heals you might want. The amount of damage lost with a melee weapon due to taking 2 seconds to prepare an IAS is substantial. I suppose that with a spear it might matter less, but is it really worth it??
It's in Marksmanship, so you throw away points in a weapon you won't be using. Even at 16 seconds, you've wasted an 8 in an attribut, and you need to stop for 2 seconds to use it - so you get 16/18 seconds with it active. Assuming that they stand still for it that's only ~25% IAS; using any non-bow they get a chance to flee (well, spears are an exception) so against a kiting foe you lose the pressure.
I see little problem with it - sure, you can get an IAS, but at what cost? If you want any expertise (I assume that is why you'd be ranger primary) and some marksmanship to throw away you are left with few attribute points for your weapon and any survival/heals you might want. The amount of damage lost with a melee weapon due to taking 2 seconds to prepare an IAS is substantial. I suppose that with a spear it might matter less, but is it really worth it??
Snow Bunny
Or I could use frenzy and Evis+Exec+Agon while you were casting Rapid Fire.
Darkpower Alchemist
Sigh, don't be foolish. Why do people always think that things just apply to PvP? Eviscerate me when I'm preping with RF..Pfft,please little bunny. You don't even like your warrior, so someone else will be attempting to Eviscerate while you watch!
Also, for comparisons sake:
[skill=big]Apply Poison[/skill]
[skill=big]Kindle Arrows[/skill]
[skill=big]Read the Wind[/skill]
Do we all see a pattern yet? If not, then allow me to varify what the question of casting time was about. NOTHING! All of these preps are used in PvE/PvP by almost every ranger and all take 2 seconds to apply, so that has little to do with anything.
The use of RF gives the ranger the opportunity to use a defense stance like WD and not LR as a makeshift IAS/Defense stance or even Frenzy or Flurry or the other secondary IAS stances. Yet, it is another option. I say make it into expertise to avoid abuse by stance tanks and such, since I was able to prep RF with Expertise of 8 daggers at 12 and Marksmanship at 4+ my archer's mask. Taking it to expertise would make it a more Ranger Exclusive skill. It worked really well with my bow, but it was just fun with daggers and the dwarf skills.
Don't start the PvP use thing. I'm generalizing the usefulness of RF with other weapons. It's recharge at 8 is overlapping its duration. It can't be removed and it doesn't interfere with other stances or weapon spells. If it was under expertise, then it would be for only rangers for the most part, and it would not be as easily abused.
Anyway, now that the cast time question is dispelled, what else makes people think it isn't worth it to use? When LR takes...45s to recharge, flurry decreases your already dismall DPS and Tiger's/Beastial Fury negates all your non attack skills and needs you to invest heavily in BM?
[skill=big]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
Also, for comparisons sake:
[skill=big]Apply Poison[/skill]
[skill=big]Kindle Arrows[/skill]
[skill=big]Read the Wind[/skill]
Do we all see a pattern yet? If not, then allow me to varify what the question of casting time was about. NOTHING! All of these preps are used in PvE/PvP by almost every ranger and all take 2 seconds to apply, so that has little to do with anything.
The use of RF gives the ranger the opportunity to use a defense stance like WD and not LR as a makeshift IAS/Defense stance or even Frenzy or Flurry or the other secondary IAS stances. Yet, it is another option. I say make it into expertise to avoid abuse by stance tanks and such, since I was able to prep RF with Expertise of 8 daggers at 12 and Marksmanship at 4+ my archer's mask. Taking it to expertise would make it a more Ranger Exclusive skill. It worked really well with my bow, but it was just fun with daggers and the dwarf skills.
Don't start the PvP use thing. I'm generalizing the usefulness of RF with other weapons. It's recharge at 8 is overlapping its duration. It can't be removed and it doesn't interfere with other stances or weapon spells. If it was under expertise, then it would be for only rangers for the most part, and it would not be as easily abused.
Anyway, now that the cast time question is dispelled, what else makes people think it isn't worth it to use? When LR takes...45s to recharge, flurry decreases your already dismall DPS and Tiger's/Beastial Fury negates all your non attack skills and needs you to invest heavily in BM?
[skill=big]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
Epinephrine
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
Don't start the PvP use thing. I'm generalizing the usefulness of RF with other weapons.
So were we. Wasting piles of points in Marksmanship to use another weapon = bad, and the majority of other weapons are melee, so your foe kites away.
And about PvE use of it? Use whatever you want, it's PvE. You can take a Signet of Midnight warrior if you feel like it. It may work ok in some builds where monsters don't kite, but it's not broken, so nobody will care.
Darkpower Alchemist
If you don't care, why comment? As for your phrase, 4 points isn't a "pile" since most builds leave 2 to 3 attribute lvls worth of points in the pool anyway and are still very effective.
With the use of my archer's mask and those excess points, and abit of stretching I got marksmanship to 8. At 5 or 6 it would still be useful. I understand PvE isn't what the forum cares about, since it's brainless play according to most that post here, but what reason did you begin playing RPGs for anyway? PvP? I remember playing RPGs alone for a very long time...but that's besides the point. The now is that RF currently can be used for weapons that are heavy adrenaline, like a hammer. You don't need your pet to use an IAS if RF is useable with all weapons. Yet, in expertise, it would be tons better. The use of Marksmanship will limit secondary useage but not like if it were in Expertise. The time of preping isn't anymore of an issue than the other prefered preperations. The use of Marksmanship to make the prep undesireable to other classes only limits the potential slightly,imo. Yet, I can't force anyone to see my point.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
If you don't care, why comment? As for your phrase, 4 points isn't a "pile" since most builds leave 2 to 3 attribute lvls worth of points in the pool anyway and are still very effective.
With the use of my archer's mask and those excess points, and abit of stretching I got marksmanship to 8. At 5 or 6 it would still be useful. I understand PvE isn't what the forum cares about, since it's brainless play according to most that post here, but what reason did you begin playing RPGs for anyway? PvP? I remember playing RPGs alone for a very long time...but that's besides the point. The now is that RF currently can be used for weapons that are heavy adrenaline, like a hammer. You don't need your pet to use an IAS if RF is useable with all weapons. Yet, in expertise, it would be tons better. The use of Marksmanship will limit secondary useage but not like if it were in Expertise. The time of preping isn't anymore of an issue than the other prefered preperations. The use of Marksmanship to make the prep undesireable to other classes only limits the potential slightly,imo. Yet, I can't force anyone to see my point. Look, you're re-applying the IAS every 15 seconds or so. It doesn't sound like much, but it's a hassle, ESPECIALLY for a melee character. That's why IAS's are insta-cast. Add this to the investment of points into an Attr-linee you're not actually going to use....it's a waste of a slot, a waste of points.
distilledwill
I tried it with my packhunter build, but it just isnt worth the investment in marksmanship, considering the activation time, the fact that you have to use it over skills like apply poison and such and the fact that it spreads your points. [card]Tiger's Fury[/card] ftw.
Darkpower Alchemist
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Look, you're re-applying the IAS every 15 seconds or so. It doesn't sound like much, but it's a hassle, ESPECIALLY for a melee character. That's why IAS's are insta-cast. Add this to the investment of points into an Attr-linee you're not actually going to use....it's a waste of a slot, a waste of points.
Ok, instant stances for an IAS exist and are overall effective in the warrior line only. And those either decrease damage,decrease movement speed, or decrease defense. For Christ sake it isn't Critical Agility, but it sure the hell beats Lightning Reflexes. Tiger's Fury needs a heavy BM investment. It definitely beats Flurry on the damage output end of things. It isn't replacing Apply Poison, but it gives Read The Wind a solid run for its money. And, if played with care, it allows for a weapon that isn't a bow, so that is what my major point has been all along. In the case of a Packhunter, they don't apply the poison normally, the pet does that last I checked. That means you can use something else. Would I say RF, I'm not so sure since I haven't tried it out, but in PvE I use Never Rampage Alone and Heal as One for an IAS and a heal.
Not sure if I'd break that up for RF, but in PvP I'd have to try it out, since high expertise is only needed if you use a pet heavy build. In that case, TF would be better.
Div
So...why not just a sin with critical agility? Instead of wasting points in marksmanship, you can make critical strikes higher and still have the same IAS. Or just tiger's fury if you wanted to waste points in something as a ranger. At least that way you'd be able to use some beast mastery skills too if you wanted...
Epinephrine
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
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In the case of a Packhunter, they don't apply the poison normally, the pet does that last I checked.
Packhunters typically apply poison, since it's easier to spread that way - spreading via pet sucks, and re-applying it every shot is better anyway. I'll agree to this much - if you want to stand in a defensive stance AND have an IAS, it does work, in that sense. Using it with a bow, possibly - it can be as good as RtW, and may outperform it with OoP for example. Using it in melee? Hardly. I mean, sure, if you want to tank PvE normal mode as a ranger, I guess. The reason people use PvP as an example often is that in PvE so many things "work" that it doesn't allow any differentiation of good builds from bad. Equip no skills, take your henchmen out and beat a few missions. It's perfectly doable, does that make it "good"? No - it's pretty much the worst you can do, just equip a weapon and auto-attack, but it'll get the job done. Wow, what a great build! It simply doesn't matter whether you can play PvE adequately with a build, what matters is how it compares to other builds, and the best tests are things like PvP.
Evilsod
If all your trying to say is that PvE is easy... just bugger off, we don't give a toss what you have to say.
Darkpower Alchemist
I didn't start playing GW for PvP. I got into it for the story, the character design concept, and the fact I love the idea of slaying monsters with friends. Most GW players did it for those same reasons. The thought of the PvE aspect being "Easy" is bogus garbage.
Sad to see people forget where they started from. Very sad... Until next thread...
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
If all your trying to say is that PvE is easy... just bugger off, we don't give a toss what you have to say.
What a shock, Evilsod being rude to someone? Perhaps they'll ban you again.
First off, not all PvE is easy, but induction by enumeration is a poor way to prove anything. Saying "it worked" in a limited context is hardly proof that it's a decent skill. I may be guilty of taking it to an extreme by posting a skill-less bar, but that's a valid form of argument - reductio ad absurdum. You'll note I did so exactly - pointed out that by the logic of "it worked" the build is a good one, which it clearly isn't - and which I ensured I explained. Second, I had started by posting that I had little fear that the skill would be a problem, even if applied to other weapons. This was my first post here, in which the PvP balance was essentially referenced - why? Because that's where an imbalance would be most obvious and where adjustments are generally made. Few skills are so out of proportion that they are nerfed for PvE use, and having an IAS simply isn't enough to worry about. I'm not worried about an IAS prep being imbalanced in PvE, especially given that you invest points in Marksmanship to get it, and give up any other preparation. The OP then was dismissive of mention of PvP, "Don't start the PvP use thing. I'm generalizing the usefulness of RF with other weapons." The fact is that the usefulness of a skill is determined not just by numbers or a given scenario, but by how well it performs overall - including kiting. PvP is one area with kiting, but so is HM, and stopping to reapply your IAS to let an enemy monk kite away is problematic. Am I somewhat dismissive of normal mode PvE in general? Sure. I'll admit to that - heck, they even removed the AI improvements to make it easier. Do I think all PvE is easy? No, but you always know exactly what you'll face, and many of the toughest bits are beaten simply by abusing the AI, whose rules we understand pretty well. Heck, I play PvE myself, having just attained legendary guardian, and it wasn't all easy. My point wasn't that "all PvE is easy" though, but rather that the claim that it "works" isn't sufficient. Put another way, induction through enumeration is a generally fallacious form of argument - counting off a few spots it works might lend support to it, but certainly doesn't prove it. The reason people bring up comparison to other skills, builds, and to PvP is that only by comparing can you determine if a skill is useful enough. If you are ignoring the multiple posts explaining why an IAS that forces you to stop chasing an enemy is a bad thing there are two options - you are ignorant, or you are fighting foes that don't kite. If the former I have no use for you, if the latter there are better choices of an IAS skill - like Flail, which you could have up permanently at no energy cost with no attributes wasted. I acknowledged that it has one small advantage - you can have a defensive stance up while under IAS; as mentioned, fine if you are tanking foes in normal mode PvE. In Hard mode I don't think it's sufficient to tank with - 75% blocking and a ranger's AL? Oh, and it's "you're", not "your".
Darkpower Alchemist
I dismissed nothing. I just said to not make this all about PvP, like almost every thread does when discussing a skill. Their are more things to factor into a skill's usefulness than PvP.
And what prep causes a person/monster not to kite? Kiting is handled through a build's attack skill makeup. That's like saying if an enchantment doesn't prevent kiting and I have to reapply it, and it's a 2s cast, then it's useless. I see the point of what you see as not being useful for a PvP scenario, though I may see it differently. However, the overall view is that it could be used and effectively if applied properly. I can take your disagreement, but you don't have to continue to blast your point again and again because I think otherwise. Your point is the spread isn't worth it in PvP, and we get that. Does that change that it could be used and used effectively, not at all. The empty skill bar thing was just overkill, since we know that even if your bar is empty, no other hench/hero bar is. Yu can auto attack with 7 others with skills to heal and kill, and possibly get through a NM mission. It was just overkill, you see it in hinesight, so let's move on.
Snow Bunny
The skill sucks with a weapon other than a bow, for reasons already stated.
/moveon Close thread Please.
lennymon
Just bring a cripple skill and kiting will be less of an issue. You can reduce a discussion to whether a single skill is 'good' or 'bad' and will make valid points, but the fact remains that we get 8 spots. All 8 skills make a build and their interplay determines a builds value as well as teammates bars interplay with your own. So all I'm saying is all skills have weaknesses, all of them... just play to each one's strength and Bob's your uncle.
Epinephrine
Yeah, I'm fine then. I only posted to say that I wasn't worried about it being overpowered really. If it enables people to play builds they wanted to play, great; I'll likely use it with a bow, but probably not with other weapons.
SotiCoto
*Sighs*
Could the arguing stop for even a moment? Yes.... so Rapid Fire works with things other than bows. Is it worth it? No. Why? Let me count the ways in full: #1. Investment in Marksmanship needed. Waste of points better spent elsewhere. #2. Two second cast time. Annoying before battle and infuriating during battle... and as if that isn't enough... #3. Easily interrupted. You try to prepare in battle, you will be interrupted... no doubt. You had better hope you can kill the entire enemy mob in a single duration... #4. Disallows use of other preps... e.g. Apply Poison. #5. All Melee classes have their own IAS better suited to their needs. Yes... while you CAN use it.... I can't think of a situation where it would be good for anything other than Bows or Spears.
moko
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Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Yes... while you CAN use it.... I can't think of a situation where it would be good for anything other than Bows or Spears.
it's not good for bows and paragons have agressive refrain.
why would anyone ever use this?
Darkpower Alchemist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
The skill sucks with a weapon other than a bow, for reasons already stated.
/moveon Close thread Please. The day they let you moderate, I'll be speechless and stop coming to this forum. I see you don't have much of an open mind to things. /getoveryourselflil bunny... As for it not being good with bows, that isn't a fact, but an opinion. It works fine with a bow, but with AP being the most useful prep against fleshy characters, and they being the dominant monster type, RF won't be on most bars.
Utaku
It doesn't work with other weapons anymore. End of debate
haggus71
read the updates. thread is irrelevant.
Darkpower Alchemist
The update happened on 9/4/07, so yeah, this is now a moot topic. Not when I made my last comment. Get to reading before you add to dead topics.
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