Pissed off with henchmen again

Ok, I just started NF hard mode. The first three missions I got done pretty easy. Then I moved onto Consulate docks and got caned. So I reskilled my heroes with different tactics. I got caned again. So Instead of 1 hero monk and a hench monk + warder + para, I took 2 hero monks, Vekk as a warder, and whatever I could find for damage from the henchmen. Devona and Gehraz got caned.

Is it a joke that ANET expect us to do this mission on HM without updating the henchmen skillbars to their normal ones? Khim uses for spells, FOUR SPELLS and those are Orison, RoF, PS, and Renew Life. On HM. I mean seriously is it my fault that I lose constantly when the henchmen have skill bars as bad as these with no elites on HM?

I'm going to retry it with a different H/H team, but I doubt it will make much difference

/rant over.

I usually take 2 monks heroes, one 'tank' or damage dealer and the rest henchman. In particularly hard maps, i'll take a Prot Henchman because they're often better than healer henchmen.

Monk henchmen do need their skillbars reassessed, I would agree.

Brawn is better than brains so take as many eles as possible with SF and perhaps a MM. Don't try to be clever with spirits, paragon shouts or wards because they're not so practical in PvE.

No, all im using for heroes is 1 ellys, 2 monks, then Cynn, Herta, sogolon khim.

My monks are LoD with gwen skills + RC with aegis, elly is a modified Cynn GWEN bar with rodgorts invocation / mind blast / energy blast / glowing gaze / MS.

Ok, its working now with 3 monks, paragon and warder. But seriously, 5 defense chars and 3 fire ellys for damage? :x

SS + Shock ele + Minions for cannon fodder

SS should provide reasonable dmg, use minions as cannon fodder and shock ele for knockdowns/dmg.

Should work.

Wooot!



Just used 3 fire ellys, 3 monks, para + warder lol.

a bunch of warriors with orders behind them are still better damage dealers than eles

I used 4 henchies, my N/Rt healer guy, 2 SH eles, and me; the D/x.

Was a peice of cake.

Just a tip, near the end where there are rows of bowmans, you can easily just use a ranger and make him use [skill]Whirling Defense[/skill] unless they use crossfire which I don't think they do. They will just eventually kill themselves as the ranger just stands there evading the arrows and dealing damage from the stance.

Why? All of those Bowman mobs are stood at the tops of stair cases... conveniantly next to a wall, plus you can just hide below. If your getting killed because your stood in there line of sight you deserve to fail... SF/SS can wipe them all out easily and the melee can just wait until agro isn't on them.

For the bowmen I just used Aegis and Chained MS on them. The only problem was the elly boss who nearly wiped the whole party with meteor + fireball. 5 kills but fash henchie resses. Then kill after kill after kill, but the ressing managed to keep up.

so.... was A-nets vision of HM that it should be doable with these useless henchmen on noob island? I would rather see it harder and be able to use 7 heroes. Off to do pogahn passage now.

Jora the Explora and I agree: needs more bacon.
Sorry, dude.

Party wiped in pogahn passage. I had me as SF, Barrage ranger, Crit barrage Zenmai, Command Para, Sogolon, herta, khim, mhenlo.

The ele boss is annoying... i got lucky, his Aftershock almost killed him when a load of minions exploded around him.

Ok, I just cant seem to do pogahn passage. Ive tried the usuall 3 offense heroes + defensive hench, 2 monk

Pissed off with pugs again. I got into a pug for HM pogahn passage, and quit after refusal for the monk bar changes or to let me use my heroes:



Bar 3 wasnt bad, but I dont want healing touch on heroes ever. Bar 1 is like how is that hero meant to maintain their energy? Bar two was the human monk :x Also, Rebirth in HM when you cant even run away?

I just left.

That first bar wouldn't be so bad after dropping Aura and Rebirth and picking up like, Gift and PS, or something. Not the most efficient thing in the world, but it'd be relatively decent.

I'm aware of that. I said please change skills 7 + 8 and he just wouldnt.

Im so god damn fed up with this mission. Either I can take 2 monk heroes and damage hench and then I cank kill anything fast enough, of I can take damage heroes + hench monks and just get pwned. No combination of anything is working so far.

Why oh why cant I just use 7 heroes?

Ive been asking in my guild + alliance chat all day for help. I offered to pay 2 k to anyone that helped me complete the mission with masters. I got one offer, then the person realised they didnt have pogahn passage on their map.

Pugs dont work. Friends dont work cos their busy doing something else (Playing GWEN), henchmen dont work.

Can we have 7 heroes yet?

You seem to be forgetting taking 1 Hero, 1 Hench (Kihm has ZB and is 9001% better than Mhenlo) monk, and then mixing up offense and defense (Para/SS/Fire ele heroes are decent, for example).

Relying entirely on hench for your offense or defense is, as you said, not the most effective method in many cases.

Ok, first off, Heroes do not know how to use Restore Conditions. They are extremely horrible at using it! My experience with this is that they'd rather spam Dismiss Condition than to use Restore Condition once and cleanse it all.

And yes, Khim uses Zealous Benidiction, but she also spams that as her priority heal wasting 10e each time she casts it when you'd be better off getting hit with Orison or something of the likes.

Mhenlo is alright, he has Word of Healing but it's redundant to get healed by both Mhenlo and Khim at the same time when at 50% health as either skill would bring you back up to near full health.

Also, I use Rebirth all the time in HM, hell I'm almost Legendary Vanquisher and every time I've gone out I've had Rebirth on my bar, as well as a few of my heroes, the difference between you and me is I know how to Control + Click the skill so that my hero doesn't constantly spam rebirth when someone dies making my entire team useless.


Trust me the problem isn't the Hench or the Heroes in many of the cases it's the players tbh. If you're running Searing Flames, you'd be more effective running with 2-3 Searing Flames eles at a time, that's where the power of SF comes in, it's not with one it's with spiking it, and heroes do know how to target the same AI as you, even if they are focused on someone else, you click the number by there name in the party window, and there's like a "sight/scope/target" thing you click that when you have the AI you want them to attack and they'll stay on that one AI until it's dead or you tell them other wise. Another thing I can personally see wrong with your build is there is absolutely no damage or support behind it. You have 2 Barragers hmm, ok cept every time i've tried to get my heroes to barrage they'd do everything except barrage... GG.

Your H/H team might start out strong but you are definitely losing steam probably mid-battle in a battle that takes more then a minute to fight.

So, I'm going to make a suggestion to you, to help you out some what take it for what it's worth a grain of salt or so.

1. I'd drop the 2 useless barragers, and opt for Zhed, Vekk or Souske for those two slots. Also, I would make either one or both Searing Flames but I would class them as Ele/Necro and drop a skill for Blood Ritual, trust me this 1 little spell on 2 of your party members will make a dramatic difference in your HM experience, you will no longer run out of steam mid-battle and everyone would have enough energy for "epic" battles.

2.I would change your bar to Ele/Monk and set Protection to about 8/9 if you could, reducing either your Fire or Energy Storage or both just a little and bring Aegis on your bar (if you don't already do this).

3. Your Monk, what to say what to say, I started off running a Word of Healing monk, but found it to be redundant when I also had Mhenlo in my group, I don't really care much for LoD as I think it's Anet's way of allowing really horrible monks to get in groups by just spamming LoD, Heal Party, Aegis and Rebirth (This is Aside from Urgoz) I'm talking about any NM/HM mission... So I dropped my Healing Monk all together for my Protection monk, who runs Life Sheath and does an amazing job with it! Also if you flag your H/H back and pre-Prot up yourself and pull and hold mobs you'd be suprised about how fast you can actually kill things.

Sorry if you felt as though I ripped into you on this, but honestly I'm just sick and tired of people complaining about Heroes and Hench and how "bad" their AI is when it's clearly the person doesn't understand the Hench and how to flag and use them properly.

-Astro-

If you're having many problems this early, you will get rocked in some of the later missions. I got the NF guardian title using H&H (eventually), but I was monking for it, which freed up an extra hero slot. H&H monks are fine sometimes, but they tend to get rocked around AoE, since they sometimes glitch and just run around, not casting. If you're not monking yourself, you will probably have to stick with 2 hero monks for some areas, unless your team build has good support and damage mitigation.

Bar 1 is bog standard Glyph/Shield of Regen monk, and is a GuildWiki build if I recall correctly. It used to be awesome in human hands. The recent SoR nerf has made it a bit iffy, but it can still work. Heroes can run it sort of. They tend to use Aegis at exactly the wrong times and have no clue about what conditions to dismiss. Moreover, hero AI is screwed up for glyphs: they will wait until they can pay full price for skills instead of factoring the Glyph of Lesser Energy into it. So, you will often have to force the GoLE.

It's terrible for hard mode, though. Depending on the area, you want to be using either a Boon (anti spike) or an LoD (anti pressure) healer, both of which the heroes can use competently. The prot henchie can catch the occasional slipup well enough. Two copies of RoF, DC or SoA are almost never needed. Also, what's the point of two prots if you are not going to be chaining Aegis?

SoR is fine in human hands. AI monks just waste their energy too fast. I like to run SoR, LoD and ZB. I were just lucky enough to get two guild monks and pwned Moddock Crevice and Kodunur Crossrads with no problem after they used the builds I gave them. Then they left so I put out a LFG message and got someone wanting to do nundu HM.

He had this on his monk:



I just told him I wasnt in the mood to spend ages sorting it out so I kick him and enter with Mhenlo, Khim, sogolon, and Herta.

I noticed just now he was a paragon and didnt even have the sunspear skill on his bar. If a paragon doing HM doesnt have the sunspear skill im not taking them.

Party Wiped by the first Nightbringer

Did a bit better the next time, I took an extra monk. Beat the nightbringers, The elly boss (with a few deaths), then got party wiped by the Dervish boss's Mystic Twister.

Bar 1 look more for human control but I have one of my Tahkl set sort of like that SoD might be wiser choice.Bar 2 ZB or Divert Hexes would be better choices for an elite.Bar 3 doesn't look to bad and I have never known an AI to use healing touch on you themselves yes. but maybe Devine Spirit instead of Holy Haste.


That Mo/R bar no Devine Favour and pets don't well you know what I mean.That person is in a bad guild.

Hero monks suck at prot elites. ZB is used as a main heal, they ignore RC in favor of non-elite condition removal, and SoR is just a bad skill in many applications. Here's what I like to run in pve (HM especially):

[skill]aegis[/skill][skill]divine spirit[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill][skill]mend condition[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill]

For HM, you'll have degen and pressure on multiple party members often so 1 (even 2) copies of LoD can be a life saver. In most areas I don't even bother with hex removal since hexes in HM are re-applied almost instantly. You're burning 5 energy for a +30 heal from divine favor pretty much. The exception would be if I know an area is loaded with migraines and I want to pre-veil.

Anyway the point is H&H are actually a lot more reliable than your average pug in HM (not that there are any HM pugs). It's just a matter of figuring out what skills the heroes can and can't use effectively, and how to micromanage them when needed. Have fun with Jennur's Horde

Yep, that says it all. Hard Mode is when I truly learned how to utilize my heroes, I used to feel the way you did and the later missions just seemed absolutely impossible, but having learned how to really use a hero team in HM you can do just about anything with them. I have but 2 suggestions for you, the rest is all you man:

1.- It's not just the individual builds or team builds you use but the placement of the heroes, henchies. Not using your flags is suicide. Expirement with them and learn how to make a net to pull into, or a formation with a defensive frontline, there are many possibilities. If you already know this I apologize, don't mean to underestimate you, but it should be working. Just keep trying different combos of char builds, team build, and strategic formation untill you find what works for you.

2.- Using 3 heroes and the rest hench is doable, but a 2 man full hero party is far superior. My gf and I play togather so we always have 2man, 6 hero. I recommend you find one good player, just one really really good experienced player you can get along with and buddy up with them. 2 Heads are better than one, right?

Hope this helps and best of luck, if you need any pointers you can always mssg me in game.

Ign -Naughty Vampire God.

I suggest That Anet fix Henchmen skill bars or allow 7 heroes, not me having to find work arounds to having WoH + ZB at the same time, or henchmen with no elites.

2 man 6 heroes is great, but sadly there isnt ever anyone free to do it. Theres never any pugs, and when anyone wants to join, they have monks with no elites and pets.

i did it with the mighty Razah as spiritspammer, hes a god in my eyes.

Disable rebirth on you're monk! he uses it in the MIDDLE of the battle (or sometimes even at the begin of one). SoR still works great^^

I'll try with razah.

Any one have any tips on boreas seabed HM? I know I have to interupt jade fury at the end, but I cant beat the champions at the start.

I tried 2x monks with the hybrid build someone posted avove (lod with aegis), but that only gets me as far as aurora.

I use res chant on my monks if they have holy haste, otherwise I dont take a res on them.

IMO for that start bit you want to stop the bosses using res sig becaues a long fight will put your party under huge pressure. Kill one and then dshot/complicate/ignorance the other. Blind helps a lot in the first two fights. Interrupt Argo's Cry obviously.

I got to the end of boreas using Lord naturals monk builds on 2 monk heroes with a couple of tweaks (Med >> Dismiss, Divine Spirit > Sig of rujuvenation, RoF > Dwaynas kiss), and a third monk horo as life barrier bonder.

I used Talon, Zho, and the two sins as heroes, but couldnt take down the kraken boss.

Funny thing is I got a human bonder from my guild to help me out a bit. I told him to use inspired / revealed hex for E management, then I see him casting Suffering and lingering curse and losing bonds all the time.

I were like WTF and his reply 'I were bored, I dont like this this build, IMHO it wont work'.

I just raged, took all heroes, got to the kraken.

Ive been in boreas seabed for two full days now trying to find people for HM, there isnt anyone there doing it.

heroes use healing touch only on themselves. thats quite nice.



and death pact signet is uber nice for heroes.

OMG! I just hero / henched vizunah! All it needed was.... an MM! Thats 2 missions done that needed an MM.

So chuffed. Now I just have Boreas, Eternal Grove + hatchery left.

I also got venta cemetary done earlier, but that ones easy.

Master of Whispers - [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill][skill]Insidious Parasite[/skill][skill]Shadow of Fear[/skill][skill]Enfeeble[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Olias - [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill][skill]Insidious Parasite[/skill][skill]Faintheartedness[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I use that pretty much everywhere in HM. I find that eles just don't kill things fast enough so I finally ditched Souske and Zhed (I use them in NM however). It owns non-casters and can counter casters to a extent, it would eat though the packs of Kournana Bowman faster than Mallyx killing a squishe

I usually run SS myself so haven't expiremented with it on my heroes, but I am wondering if you run into problems with the two casting Spiteful and Insiduous on the same target, or how you ensure that they are spreading out and hitting different targets with these two spells.

I never had to worry about them, I think the AI is smart enough since everytime we come to a mob that aren't made of casters, I barely get any damage out nor does the monks need to do much healing. I know SoF/Faint + SS/Insidious Parasite is counter-productive but it's to counter the speed buff monsters get in HM

Good to know, i can see how that would be helpfull and shall have to give it a shot myself, thanks.

I personally think this is a common misconception about the purpose of SS. sire if you're fighting one enemy you would want to couple SS with something like reckless haste, but when fighting a mob i find SoF and the like helpfull and the reason is this, every enemy you cast SS on is doing dmg to the rest of the mob as long as they stay alive. Usually I'll hit one with SS and SoF then leave them alone and cast on someone else untill those skills recharge and I can hit another mark and repeat. You want to keep the ones with SS on them in a mob alive as long as possible imo, the later they drop the better.

THis was the MM bar I used for Vizunah that I got from a post in the cantha section, I cant believe how easy it made it:


[skill]Animate Bone Minions[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Order of Undeath[/skill][skill]Infuse Condition[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]


Pretty self explanatory, make lots of minions quick, deal 16 damage off each one with order.

They dont call it hard mode because its a cakewalk you know. I higly doubt it was even supposed to be henchable.

Is anyone else having a bit of trouble with how the henchies and heroes are currently acting?

I'm walking along, wondering around Varajar Fells, when...

• Devona and Jora decide to hold a picnic in the middle of a mass-agro.
• Ogden stands around, admiring the scenery while he picks his nose.
• Mehnlo decides he's sick and tired of my crap and goes off to complete the rest of the game by himself with that stupid 55 build he uses in the Norn Arena.
• Cynn and Talon start 'exchanging builds' behind a nearby rez shrine, thinking I don't notice their absence...
• Zenmai throws down her daggers and tries to strangle the enemy with her bare hands... At least she's fighting.

Once I use the flags, they finally stop RED ENGINE GOing around and start doing what I pay them to do.