How the heck I get R5 Norn rank without farming?

To put foreward some thoughts I've been having on the matter:

The thing I really liked about Guild Wars to start off with?

It felt that it was really objective-oriented. I hadn't played actual MMOs before, but I had played online Neverwinter Nights servers where levelling was usually an issue of just going out and killing monsters. I never reached max level, as I usually got bored of it well before then, and in a given session, I never felt that I was achieving something apart from maybe getting a few inches closer to the far-away carrot. Every time WoW players - for the past few years the majority of MMO players I've met face-to-face as opposed to online - talked about things like finally reaching level 60 and reputation grind and how there was a big difference between characters who had just reached 60 and veterans thanks to equipment... I internally cringed, but remained satisfied that in my choice, I'd managed to get away from all that ENGINE GORED.

Prophecies, by contrast, had short-term objectives. Every time you left a town, you could be out there for a reason. Maybe it's a quest. Maybe it's to reach a town. Maybe you're hunting down an elite skill (which could require multiple tries in Prophecies, but that's all right, hunting expeditions don't always have to be successful) or simply out to explore and see the sights. But you have a short-term objective - you're not just grinding points, whether it's experience, reputation, or gold - towards some far-off objective. Yes, some things such as prestige armour did require a lot of time gathering resources - but if you didn't want to farm, you could still gather those resources, surely if possibly slowly, without it. The closest thing to grind would be FoW and the Underworld - but even in those cases, you're not just randomly killing monsters. You have things to do while you're there. You have objectives - things you can do in the short term that can reward you with a sense of satisfaction which just happen to coincide with your advancement to the ultimate goal.

The initial release of Factions did not change this format. Nor did the initial introduction of titles. I didn't ever expect to get any of the grinding ones, but as long as they didn't actually do anything, it didn't really matter, right?

The first alarm bells started ringing when they did. The wisdom and treasure hunter titles having an in-game effect was a small thing at first - not to mention being softened by a general benefit to everyone - but it was the first case of something where a long-term goal was introduced that had an ingame effect.

Then came Nightfall - and the Sunspear and Lightbringer skills. The infamous "Sunspear grind", to be honest, never really bothered me - there were plenty of quests to do, elites to hunt down, and other short-term objectives to achieve while gathering them. Lightbringer, on the other hand, was starting to get worrying - the benefits were restricted to a specific area, but in that area it could make a huge difference. The basic levels - access to the Lightbringer Signet and bringing the Gaze to the point where it would hit the entirety of most mobs - however, could easily be achieved on or not long after finishing the game, and that was without doing most of the Torment quests on the way. I'd imagine that doing them all as well would result in a fairly respectable - maybe not maxed, but respectable - Lightbringer score without resorting to farming runs.

The next step was the introduction of Sunspear and Luxon/Kurzick factional PvE skills. The Sunspear ones weren't a problem - as I've stated elsewhere, reaching respectable Sunspear scores isn't exactly hard. The Luxon/Kurzick skills, by contrast... even account-based, that's a LOT of faction to get. Yes, you can still do it by doing repeatable quests... but that's where I felt the friendship was starting to be pushed.

And then Eye of the North hit. I've stated before that I can see reasons to slow down the acquisition of armour - because it also slows down the rise in demand for materials. But on the other hand - those short-term objectives seem to be missing. To take the example I have the most familiarity with - the Ebon Vanguard side, including all quests, can be done in a weekend... and can be done with still having ten thousand reputation points or more to go for R5. That's along the lines of three or four clearings of Sacnoth Valley, with nothing else to do while you're there, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is grind. It may only be five hours or so of it, but it's a sort of gameplay that I can only stand for an hour or so at a time... preferably with a few days in between.

And heaven forbid that I ever want to use the skills competitively without leading with a Illusion Signet. (And there's an irony - the Vanguard skills are most useful against Charr, but once you've maxed the title, what incentive do you have to continue fighting them?)

Looking forward in time... this is making me VERY concerned about GW2. On initially hearing about "high or infinite level caps" I thought maybe the levels might simply be a prestige thing... but the requirement for a 'sidekick' system blew that out of the water. Maybe ANet will be smart enough that GW2 will have enough to due during that levelling treadmill that it won't feel like grind... but then again, maybe they won't.

Flipping back to the present: I don't see having to work for your armour (or skills, or whatever) as being a problem. What I do see as a problem, however, is that there isn't anything to do on the way. Sure, you might say that in only four runs I'll get there... but what I say in return is what do I get out of the first run? Nothing. Just another few feet towards that metaphorical carrot in the distance. Just like what makes me cringe when I hear people talking about their "achievements" in games like WoW - which is a direction that GW seems to be careening towards.

Some of you may see that as a call for instant gratification. In a way, it is - but I'm not asking for the ultimate goal to be brought any closer. Instead, all I'm asking for is something more along the way that means that after any given session, I can sit back and think that my character has achieved something now - not simply that they're 1/3 or 1/4 of the way closer to an objective that will require them to do the exact same thing at some later time in order to get another 1/2 or 1/3 closer.

In conclusion: Give us back our short-term, objective-oriented play. Don't just leave us continually reaching for some long-term objective that requires multiple repetitive sessions to see any results. Frankly, at this point I'd be happy just to see an announcement from ANet that new, possibly repeatable, quests are planned to be released at a later date - that way I'd know I can do something more interesting now with the knowledge that sometime further down the track there'll be a more interesting way to get that carrot later.

I'm at rank 4, and I still have 3 dungeons/Quests to do. And I wont be r5 when Im done, but ill have very little grinding to do to reach rank 5.

You can do it!

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I beat GW:EN with my Rit and I needed one elite armor set to display in Hom (never found one I liked better than the basic exotic way back when). After comparing options on the Wiki, I decided to go for Monument. Unfortunately, I had less Vanguard faction than anything else - oh well.

My strategy was to first complete all of the quests that give reputation, and then experiment with different farming options.

The quests were well-designed and fun - indecisive flaming scepter mages FTW. Each one I completed I got a new vanguard skill, which I usually tried out during the next quest. If, in the course of doing the quest I killed more than 100 baddies, I'd run around and hit all of the rez shrines. Finally, I had a quest that took me to Rragar's Menagerie.

Rragar's is a repeatable dungeon that gives 3000 reputation plus a nice chest drop per clearing. Warning - you must talk to Gron the quest giving merchant again, or you can't get past the first level - doh! Once I figured this out, I decided I'd repeat this dungeon until I had my R5. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I didn't get to do it a second time. When I completed the last quest in the ever-burning forest place, R5 was mine.

So, in my (admittedly small sample size of) one experience, I found getting to R5 a mostly grind-free experience.

I got to rank 5 doing this:
- All Norn quests.
- 4 Dungeons in the Norn region.
- Fully exploring and clreaing all 6 Norn areas.

I got some decent Master of the North points too.

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personally, I could care less about the armors or skills. The skills offer nothing I can't get from skills I know and use well already. The armors, other than maybe the Norn ranger, aren't worth the time.

However....for those who argue "you don't need the armors/skills to play the game", this is a game. You play it to enjoy it. If you can't get your character to look the way you like it, since you are going to be looking at it all the time, why should you play the game? If you are forced into gameplay you don't like just to get a character you would enjoy more....why should you play the game?

Honestly, if you don't like this....Hellgate comes out on Halloween. LOTRO is out already. Tabula Rasa(looks like a HALO MMO) is out next month. Age of Conan comes out in the spring. Try them out for free. Skip a few trips to Starbuck's(latte:$3.50, muffin:3.00. +tax) and get the money for the fee. If Anet is doing something that ruins your enjoyment of a game, and show no signs of changing it, vote by NOT PLAYING. If you still do something that is pissing you off and giving you no enjoyment....well, you shouldn't have to do that on a GAME. People have jobs that do that.

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Just do all the Dungeons in the game, Duncan the Black gives 5000 norn points. Turning in the handbooks to norn faction gives you another 5000. If you do all the quest and all the dungeons in the game you will end up at r5 or very close in asura and vanguard lines.

I dont get the whine in this thread, finish the game and then you can get the armor.