State of the Game: The Secondary Profession - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

11 Sep 2007 at 03:49 - 1

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...profession.php

It's been a while, hasn't it? (last one was June 25th)

The end of the article made me laugh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Article

Personally, I love the concept of the secondary profession, with all of its benefits. It provides so many options to players that almost anything is possible with enough creativity, ingenuity, and experimentation. Certainly the future holds even more innovations, and I cannot wait to experience them.

"Creativity?" The entire article is about Cookie Cutters!

And I regret to point out that the future...uh...won't hold future innovations, since...uh...there are no more expansions planned and Izzy is lazy?

Ec]-[oMaN

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Toronto, Ont.

[DT][pT][jT][Grim][Nion]

W/

11 Sep 2007 at 04:00 - 2

Skimmed it over was rather disappointed as usual. The state of the game was always as such talked about within that article, hell, since GW was first released. Nothing truely about the state of the current game in there.

myword

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Korea

11 Sep 2007 at 04:05 - 3

Quote:

A note to some Monks, though: Glyph of Lesser Energy is not for spamming Reversal of Fortune!

well i'll be damned!

acidic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

11 Sep 2007 at 04:11 - 4

so how about anet fire the guys that writes these things and hire some better artist so we don't get some lame reskins

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

11 Sep 2007 at 04:14 - 5

Needs more java. Or something.

Edit for those who don't know: http://www.guildwars.com/community/p...70608-java.php

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

11 Sep 2007 at 04:27 - 6

Someone didn't get the memo that Aegis is 10e.

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

11 Sep 2007 at 04:32 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Needs more java. Or something.

Edit for those who don't know: http://www.guildwars.com/community/p...70608-java.php

On an eeriely related note, that's the only Player Profile, and it was posted June 8th.

ArenaNet is really lacking in Website content.

TheHaxor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2007

two

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 04:34 - 8

I see so much wrong in that post. It's already outdated even. At least for the monk part.

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

11 Sep 2007 at 05:17 - 9

The article is awful, both in content and style. It reminds me of bad high school essays, where the student pretends to know what he's talking about, but actually doesn't because he failed to pay attention in class. The whole article is filled with fluff, bad writing, poor choice of examples, and ends with a cheesy conclusion, which I'll quote:

Quote:

Many people argue that a character build shouldn't rely on a secondary profession to be efficient. I would argue that to a certain extent, that is exactly how it should be. By using skills from other professions, Guild Wars makes it unusually easy for characters to become hybrids in an RPG system. This paradigm has spawned thousands of builds in a game that still sees new ideas and creations all the time.

Personally, I love the concept of the secondary profession, with all of its benefits. It provides so many options to players that almost anything is possible with enough creativity, ingenuity, and experimentation. Certainly the future holds even more innovations, and I cannot wait to experience them.

There are so many irrelevant things in those two paragraphs. But, I guess it's a suitable conclusion for an article that doesn't have much content to sum up in the first place...

Rangers go R/Mo with Mending Touch, sometimes Purge Signet.
Monks go Mo/A with Return and/or Dark Escape, or Mo/W with block stances, or Mo/E with Glyph of Lesser Energy.
Axe Warriors go W/E for Shock, sometimes Conjure. Or they go /Rt for Death Pact.
Flaggers are E/Mos with Shield of Regen, Mend Touch and sometimes Guardian.
Conclusion: I love secondaries!

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

11 Sep 2007 at 06:20 - 10

It looks like it was written about half year ago and considered not worthy for gw web at that time.

It has couple of factual mistakes (like that Mend Touch costs ranger less than 5e - it is expertise affected)

I dont really mind fluff, author tries to explain why those secodnary skills get used, but i would expect him to mention historical builds really dependant on secondaries (N/Rt and N/Mo HA healers for example)

Toutatis

Walking Wiki

Join Date: Nov 2006

Isle of Medication

Visitors from Aranna [VFA]

Me/E

11 Sep 2007 at 06:39 - 11

The future will never have any more real innovation if everyone uses cookie cutter builds, like the ones that article mentions... I'm secretly praying to ANet to drastically nerf every cookie cutter build in the game just so that we can see something new and fresh.

What I'd like to see is a really experimental player write some of these state of the game articles - the more eclectic the tactics mentioned, the better. The profession/build system in GW is capable of so much more than what I've seen in these articles so far.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

11 Sep 2007 at 07:43 - 12

This guy is completely wrong in quite a few respects. One that's already been highlighted is Aegis, but the one that really, really annoying me, was his woeful misunderstanding of why people go Mo/A.

I don't know where he gets that it's for energy management, as quite honestly that's a very poor misconception when you play against better players. It's far more about self sustainability, and just like when EvIL began running Mo/A's, good teams will quickly learn to just pressure the hell out of soft targets without self sustainability. I also can't believe he didn't highlight the main disadvantage such a character has, which iQ showed so well in the GWFC Semis.

PS. "Cookie Cutter" Builds are generally the most effective. I seriously suggest that people stop complaining about them and stop trying to run something innovative that's just bad.

Redfeather1975

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Apartment#306

Rhedd Asylum

Me/

11 Sep 2007 at 08:33 - 13

I didn't read the article. I'm bad.
But I love secondary professions.
It's the only reason I still play my mesmer in PVE.
I get bored very easily and find it fun to create whacky hybrid builds.
When Signet of Illusions got buffed I think I fainted.

-Loki-

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2005

11 Sep 2007 at 09:01 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

On an eeriely related note, that's the only Player Profile, and it was posted June 8th.

ArenaNet is really lacking in Website content.

They got a bit embarrassed when they tried to interview someone with no life trying to act self important because he's 'good' at HvH.

Henchman

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

A cave in the Shiverpeaks

Mo/

11 Sep 2007 at 09:25 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...profession.php
"Creativity?" The entire article is about Cookie Cutters!
[/b]

And if you actually take a moment to think before bashing you'd realize that most cookie cutter build are CREATIVE builds that have become over-used.
There is not denying the creativity behind a thumper, shock-axe warrior, or even pve builds such as the E/D tank. You just so used to them, that you don't see them as creative anymore.

Sab

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

11 Sep 2007 at 10:22 - 16

There's nothing inherently wrong with cookie cutter builds. They are strong, versatile builds which usually take a lot of experience to master. Unless they're abusing some overpowered skill combo, or they take no player skill beyond button-mashing to play, there's no real reason to scream for balance.

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 10:30 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

It's far more about self sustainability

What do you think the term 'Damage Negation', means?

And as the above poster points out, all the cookie cutter builds we know and loath today were bright and fresh ideas at one point. There has been so much innovation and brilliant thought put into builds in this game, please don't forget this just because the masses have no imagination - or indeed intelligent motivation - to think outside the box themselves and have to spam other peoples ideas.

And also to whoever said don't try to innovate with rubbish ideas, just play what we have... how do you think ideas evolve? Out of the blue as concrete and perfect? Wow...

Most of you are so quick to crit that you don't put any thought into it.

Real shame.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

11 Sep 2007 at 10:48 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

What do you think the term 'Damage Negation', means?

And as the above poster points out, all the cookie cutter builds we know and loath today were bright and fresh ideas at one point. There has been so much innovation and brilliant thought put into builds in this game, please don't forget this just because the masses have no imagination - or indeed intelligent motivation - to think outside the box themselves and have to spam other peoples ideas.

And also to whoever said don't try to innovate with rubbish ideas, just play what we have... how do you think ideas evolve? Out of the blue as concrete and perfect? Wow...

Most of you are so quick to crit that you don't put any thought into it.

Real shame.

Good teams won't keep hitting on someone with Dark Escape up unless he's

a) running a flag and they need a boost and he's snared
b) they have wild blow

It's not energy management at all, it's a thing there to keep themselves alive, most often through spikes. The writer may have got the damage mitigation aspect of it correct, but he didn't actually have a clue as to how or why it's used. He said it was pretty much exclusively there to save energy due to the mitigation of damage on yourself. That simply isn't the case in guild wars unless you're playing against morons.

Also, there are a finite number of good skills in this game. There are more that are good in certain circumstances which you can create, but that generally makes gimmick builds which will win unless x event happens. Those are horrendously imbalanced builds and generally require little player skill to succeed with when conditions favour you (ie. good map, the need of 1/2 skills to counter you). I'm quick to criticise this kind of article because the writer clearly has no idea what he's talking about, just like most of the other State of the Game articles.

PS. Food for thought - secondary classes, while making the game far more dynamic and diverse, also contribute hugely toward the imbalances of it - discuss.

Retribution X

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Check behind you again.

N/

11 Sep 2007 at 11:39 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

And if you actually take a moment to think before bashing you'd realize that most cookie cutter build are CREATIVE builds that have become over-used.
There is not denying the creativity behind a thumper, shock-axe warrior, or even pve builds such as the E/D tank. You just so used to them, that you don't see them as creative anymore.

I'm creative for using a build someone Pm'd me, and said use this or get kicked?

Yeah. that's the most creative thing I've done.

/endsarcasm.

they were creative at one time, many, many, many, months ago...

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 11:41 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

1. It's not energy management at all, it's a thing there to keep themselves alive, most often through spikes.

2 ...but that generally makes gimmick builds which will win unless x event happens. Those are horrendously imbalanced builds and generally require little player skill to succeed with when conditions favour you (ie. good map, the need of 1/2 skills to counter you).

1. I'll quote from the article:

Quote:

Damage Negation: One method is to negate damage so the Monk doesn't have to follow up with extra prots or heals.

Damage negation decreases amount of energy spent on self healing. Maybe not the main focus of the build but a healthy by-product. He focuses both on the reduced damage + the reduced energy cost because of it. IMO, the details professed in this part are just fine.

The article then goes on to talk about energy management with GOLE, so maybe a rage skim would blend the emphasis a little...

2. I wasn't arguing against this. Of course these builds cause imbalance/unfairness but nonetheless at their time of origin they were innovative and exciting and some of them quite brilliantly so. I'll reiterate: just because the masses tend to spam other people ideas doesn't lessen the fact that these ideas were once fresh, intelligent and fun.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

11 Sep 2007 at 11:51 - 21

Isolated quoting can always work in someones favour. Looking at the actual article though, it seems clear enough to me he was being dumb and saying that Mo/A is good energy management all the time, which it isn't. I guess though, that running out of energy when your team is dying is a good thing?

He, quite clearly at that, states it's a method of energy management, which it just, isn't. I could say why, but it would just be repeating myself. It's as if he's equating the game to PvE, where mobs won't switch targets when they get protted.

Ghost Recon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

11 Sep 2007 at 11:54 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

PS. "Cookie Cutter" Builds are generally the most effective. I seriously suggest that people stop complaining about them and stop trying to run something innovative that's just bad.

I totally agree everyone should just run the same build for the next 2 years that won't get boring at all.[/sarcasm]

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

11 Sep 2007 at 12:10 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Recon

I totally agree everyone should just run the same build for the next 2 years that won't get boring at all.[/sarcasm]

Way to completely misinterpret him. Either that or you're mentally deficient and can only see things in pure extremes of black and white.

He said specifically to stop running builds that are just bad. They're different from the cookie cutter, yes, but different doesn't mean good or useful. The cookie cutters are as such because they're effective and they work well. Why the hell would you run something different if it's clearly inferior?

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 12:12 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Isolated quoting can always work in someones favour. .

Okay, so I'll quote the section in questions entirety:

Quote:

Damage Negation: One method is to negate damage so the Monk doesn't have to follow up with extra prots or heals. An example of this is the Monk/Assassin, popularized by the Last Pride [EvIL]. The Mo/A commonly has two Assassin skills: Return and Dark Escape. These two skills cost 5 Energy each but still save a Monk tremendous amounts of Energy. Using Return to Shadow Step to a distant ally Cripples an attacking Warrior, giving the Monk time to recover. Dark Escape reduces all damage by 50%, which is useful in general, but it becomes even more important when a Monk gets knocked down and can't cast any spells. This skill also gives a 25% speed boost, transforming an ordinary Monk into a superb kiter.

Damage negation skills like these allow Monks to spend less Energy on self-survival, freeing up more Energy to protect both themselves and their teammates. Although the Monk/Assassin has declined in popularity, Monk/Warriors now fill a similar role with skills such as Shield Bash, Defensive Stance, or Soldier's Defense.

He quite clearly adds the fact that damage negation on a monk requires less self heals and therefore saves energy as a healthy by-product to the main focus of the build. This build will give the monk less red to fill, and more prot to dish out which is much more effective when keeping your team standing.

I will stand by your claim that it's badly worded in places, but the core idea he presents is a valid one.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

11 Sep 2007 at 12:20 - 25

I'm pretty sure you bolded "still save a Monk tremendous amounts of Energy" - how would they ever do so if people don't attack them so they can't actually use them?

And he said it was energy management like the line before that (2 examples of how a Monk manages energy are...).

The build will occasionally decrease energy usage, but only in terms of if the other team decides to wail on you for 12 seconds or however long Dark Escape is up for, while its up. If they don't you essentially have somewhat useless skills. The use they have is the fact the other team will be less likely to attack/try to spike you (except when they get to a decent level and learn to fake out Dark Escapes, keep the time in mind, and hit on what it can't be put back up). Another is the movement they provide, especially in a situation where you're skirmishing, but very few teams are actually effective at doing that so it's almost redundant.

Seriously, do you understand this basic concept at all?

If you don't get hit, the skills to limit the damage you take will not save you energy.

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 12:24 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

I'm pretty sure you bolded "still save a Monk tremendous amounts of Energy" - how would they ever do so if people don't attack them so they can't actually use them?

And he said it was energy management like the line before that (2 examples of how a Monk manages energy are...).

The build will occasionally decrease energy usage, but only in terms of if the other team decides to wail on you for 12 seconds or however long Dark Escape is up for, while its up. If they don't you essentially have somewhat useless skills. The use they have is the fact the other team will be less likely to attack/try to spike you (except when they get to a decent level and learn to fake out Dark Escapes, keep the time in mind, and hit on what it can't be put back up). Another is the movement they provide, especially in a situation where you're skirmishing, but very few teams are actually effective at doing that so it's almost redundant.

Seriously, do you understand this basic concept at all?

If you don't get hit, the skills to limit the damage you take will not save you energy.

I'm not calling it perfect...

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

11 Sep 2007 at 12:25 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I'm not calling it perfect...

He's not calling it imperfect.

He's calling it wrong. For a good reason.

wilderness

tinyurl.com/6hqar7a

Join Date: Mar 2006

We Couldn't Figure Out A Name [LMAO]

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 12:27 - 28

Fine, I won't carry this further.. Yes I understand that you need to be hit for DE to matter in the terms of energy saving he suggests, and yes I understand that decent players won't bother to keep hitting on a monk with DE enabled etc.. I'm tired and I didn't word any of what I was trying to say properly...

I'm arguing semantics mostly, anyway; My Bad.

Ghost Recon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

11 Sep 2007 at 13:08 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Way to completely misinterpret him. Either that or you're mentally deficient and can only see things in pure extremes of black and white.

Actually from what he wrote (even though it needs a comma) he indicated that innovative builds are a bad idea and there is no point running them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

He said specifically to stop running builds that are just bad. They're different from the cookie cutter, yes, but different doesn't mean good or useful. The cookie cutters are as such because they're effective and they work well. Why the hell would you run something different if it's clearly inferior?

Maybe it isn't inferior on paper but when you run it, it's weaknesses shows. Also if people didn't make up crazy builds we would be stuck on the same boring builds for years.

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

11 Sep 2007 at 13:17 - 30

Stop trying to run something innovative that's just bad. != Stop trying to run something innovative, that's just bad.

Ghost Recon pointed out his statement needed a comma. By placing a comma within the statement, yes he would be right, but would make it something entirely different to what Vanquisher was saying.

He said simply to stop running bad builds just for the sake of being different (Stop trying to run something innovative that's just bad).

He did not say stop running different builds as anything other than cookie cutter is bad (Stop trying to run something innovative, that's just bad).

I'm not being a git, I'm being punctual and precise. Recon, on the other hand is being an ignorant tard.

Selket

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Grand Court of Selket/Sebelkeh

What If You Had An Outpost Named After You [slkt]

W/

11 Sep 2007 at 13:31 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

They got a bit embarrassed when they tried to interview someone with no life trying to act self important because he's 'good' at HvH.

You actually thought that was serious?

Man, what.

Ghost Recon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

11 Sep 2007 at 13:39 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

He said simply to stop running bad builds just for the sake of being different (Stop trying to run something innovative that is bad).

Fixed.

12 chars

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

11 Sep 2007 at 13:40 - 33

Quote:

Maybe it isn't inferior on paper but when you run it, it's weaknesses shows. Also if people didn't make up crazy builds we would be stuck on the same boring builds for years.

If we were still on KGYU degen pressure or Blackout-Push I would be very, very happy playing this game.

However we are playing block wars, and it is not fun.

Ghost Recon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

11 Sep 2007 at 14:15 - 34

Leave the whinging about poor grammar at school, thanks.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

N/

11 Sep 2007 at 16:04 - 35

All that i really have to say is... lol

TheHaxor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2007

two

W/N

11 Sep 2007 at 16:20 - 36

Quote:

The Mo/A commonly has two Assassin skills: Return and Dark Escape.

Quote:

Although the Monk/Assassin has declined in popularity

How did everyone miss these two gems? Last time I checked, pretty much no one runs both on the same bar because that is retarded since there are more useful skills to have that you can use on your teammates. Also, last time I checked most all the LoD's run Mo/A with return. How is that a decline in popularity?

Sha Noran

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq

Idiot Savants [iQ]

R/

11 Sep 2007 at 21:52 - 37

People read those?

For a while I read them for the lulz, but after a while the misinformation was so abysmal that it stopped even being funny. It's just embarrassing.

Retribution X

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Check behind you again.

N/

11 Sep 2007 at 22:02 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

He said simply to stop running bad builds just for the sake of being different (Stop trying to run something innovative that's just bad).

I really took it as, "Stop trying to run innovative builds that ARE Bad"

Nothing against good innovative builds. (which usually end up as cookie cutter builds...)

Just please, no 8-res skillbars. tha's an example of innovative, but useless. (Especially in AB. god help us all...)