Before I begin:
- These ideas are meant to promote active play among the Ritualist, which is the way Guild Wars was meant to be played in the first place.
- Defensive Spirits, mainly Shelter, Displacement, etc, are the type of skills that promote passive play, and thats the reason why they were nerfed to oblivion. This ideas are meant to fix this issue, bring balance into the PvP Ritualist, and make them more useful in PvE.
- If you are posting, I always welcome any flaming/praising, but please always try to add a bit more into the ideas and provide your reasons why.
Special Thanks to:
Calen The Civl
frojack
Aethon
Who all contributed greatly in the original thread by Calen The Civl.
Featured Changes
(Current) Spawning Power: For each rank of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) have 4% more Health, and weapon Spells you cast last 2% longer. Some Ritualist skills, especially those related to Spirit creatures, become more effective with higher Spawning Power.
(Change) Spawning Power: For every 3 ranks of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) have an additional level. For each rank of Spawning Power creatures you create (or animate) have 2% more health and weapon spells you cast last 2% longer.
Additional possible changes to include Item Spells:
- For every 3 ranks in Spawning Power, whenever you are holding an item you increase your Health by 5 and Energy by 2, and have a 5% chance to halve skill recharge of spells.
What this changes means is that for Spirits, at 10 SP they have an additional 3 levels, and 20% more health, and at rank 12/13 an additional 4 levels with 24/26% additional health. The health gain compared to the previous 4% is practically the same, but additional armor is added into the spirits to make them more sustainable to damage.
Edit (15/09/07):
What everyone has agreed as of yet:
- The Binding Rituals concept is fine as it is. What it needs is basically a balance in Casting/Recharge times and possibly cost. The ideal decrease in casting times could be 2 seconds for 3 second spirits, and 4 or possibly 3 seconds for 5 second spirits.
- Reducing the Area of Effect of spirits is a must if balancing is to be successful. The ideal range would be within earshot.
- And most important: No one wants a revival of the old siting-across-map-Spirit-Spamming-Ritual-Lord days. This changes are also meant to prevent that from happening.
- It was suggested that a change into the functionality of the main defensive spirits should be implemented, mainly for Shelter and Displacement.
Calen The Civl added by suggesting that the Shelter and Displacement, or possibly Union, be changed into weapon spells.
Quote:
Weapon of Shelter(10e, 1c, 12r): Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack.Project: Refining the Ritualist Design 2
I??aki
Weapon of Displacement(10e, 1s, 12r) Weapon Spell. For 5-8 seconds target ally has a 50% chance to block incoming attacks.
Weapon of Union(10e, 2s, 20r) Weapon Spell. For 8-12 seconds, when target ally receives damage half that damage is directed to you and is reduce by 3-10 points.
SP = Spawning Power
Ritual Lord(10e,30r)[Elite]:Skill. For 30 seconds, your Rituals cast 15...40...50% faster.
Weapon of Quickening(5e/2c/5r):Weapon Spell. For 5...21...25 seconds, target ally has a Weapon of Quickening, and Spells and Binding Rituals cast 33% faster.
Binding Rituals Modification:
Shelter(10e,3c/4c,30r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy. This Spirit dies after 8...18...20 seconds.
At 15 Communing: The Spirit has lvl 8 and lasts for 20 sec
10 Spawning Power: The Spirit has lvl 11 (8+3)
Health = 300 + (300*0.2) = 360
Armor = 69
13 SP: lvl (8+4) 12
Health = 320 + (320*0.26)= 403
Armor = 75
Thanks to Aethon for this version of Shelter.
Quote:
Union(10e,2c,25r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Whenever any Non-spirit ally within earshot of the spirit take damage, that damage is reduced by 15 and the spirit takes 15 damage. This Spirit dies after 5...18...20 seconds.
At 15 Communing: lvl 8, 20 sec,
10SP: lvl (8+3) 11
Health = 360
Armor = 69
13SP: lvl (8+4) 12
Health = 403
Armor = 75
Allows for 24 hits possible, at 10 SP; and allows for 27 hits possible, at 13 SP.
Displacement(10e,2c,30r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of the spirit have a 75 % chance to block incoming attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, this spirit takes 20 damage. This Spirit dies after 5...13...15 seconds.
At 15 Communing: lvl 8, 15 sec, 4 allies.
10SP: lvl 11
360 Health
69 Armor
13SP: lvl 12
403 Health
75 Armor
Restoration(10e,4c,20r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. When this spirit dies, all allies in the area of the spirit are resurrected with 15...41...50% Health and 10...22...25% Energy. This Spirit dies after 20 seconds.
Preservation(5e,2c,20r)[Elite]: Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. Every 2 seconds, all allies within earshot of the spirit are healed for 30...60...80 Health. This Spirit dies after 2...8...10 seconds.
Recuperation(15e,3c/4c,20r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All allies within earshot of the spirit have +1...3...4 Health regeneration. This Spirit dies after 5...18...20 seconds.
Recovery(10e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Conditions on all allies within earshot of the spirit expire 20...44...50% faster. This Spirit dies after 5...21...25 seconds.
Life(5e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. When this spirit dies, all allies within earshot of the spirit are healed for 1...6...7 health for each second it was alive. This Spirit dies after 10 seconds.
Rejuvenation(10e,2c,10r): Create a level 1...8...10 Spirit. That ally and 2...4...4 allies within earshot are healed for 3...9...10 health each second. This spirit looses 3...9...10 health for each party member healed this way. This spirit dies after 5...9...10 seconds.
*Winds: This spirit should be changed into a Nature Ritual. I never quite figured why Anet would make this a Binding Ritual.
The Minion Master / Minion Bomber:
This numbers correspond each to 16 Spawning power and 12 Death magic for the Ritualist and 16 Death magic for the Necro. Notice: at 16SP/12DM, Ritualist add an additional 5 levels plus an additional 32 % health, but are limited to only a max of 8 Minions.
Animate Flesh Golem(10e,3,30r):
- at 16SP/12DM it creates a level (21+5) 26 Golem with [600+(600*0.32)] 792 Health and 103 armor.
- at 16DM, it creates a level 26 Golem with 600 Health and 103 armor.
Animate Bone Horror(10e,3,5r):
- at 16SP/12DM, it creates a level (14+5) 19 Horror with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- at 16DM, it creates a level 18 Horror with 460 Health and 73 armor.
[B]Animate Bone Fiends(25e,3,5r):[B/]
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 and 72 armor.
Animate Bone Minions(15e,3,5r):
- 16/12, 2 level 15 minions with 449 Health and 61 armor.
- 16, 2 level 13 minions with 340 Health and 54 armor.
Animate Vampiric Horror(15e,3,15r):
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 Health and 72 armor.
Animate Shambling Horror(15e,3,25r):
- 16/12, level 19 with 607 Health and 76 armor.
- 16DM, level 18 with 440 Health and 72 armor.
*Jagged Horrors:
- 16/12, have level 17 with 502 Health and 69 Armor.
- 16DM, have level 15 with 380 Health and 61 armor.
Other Skills that would need to be changed:
Armor of Unfeeling
Signet of Binding should have the 30 second limit lowered, perhaps 10 seconds?
Signet of Creation, maybe same as Sig of Binding?, this would actually benefit Minion Bombers.
Summon Spirits
Draw Spirit
Oso Minar
We weren't broken before. This thread, while impressive in length, is entirely pointless.
Terra Xin
I had to stop at Shelter because I got confused. Could you provide a clarification for 'bound' please? It seems to be a new mechanic that you've introduced but you haven't explained how it works. Thanks.
Dahnel
Ritualists are broken ? I did'nt get that memo... 
street peddler
what an overly-complicated/pointless idea..
Calen The Civl
Inaki's goal is to add more viability to Spawning Power. However, while some of the skill changes have potential (Shelter and the other defensive spirits are obviously broken as they are) the spirits are seeing a completely overhaul that makes them similar to minions. At first, I was fond of the idea as well; however, after consideration it would be a too large a reworking of the class's mechanics to be viable.
The idea of defensive spirits being bound to an ally (which is basically the same as casting an enchant on a player) and have the effect influence the earshot area around that ally would be a nice way to make the spirits different from protection spells. These spirits would have to remain immobile however.
The idea of Spawning Power influencing animated and summon creatures levels seems like a decent addition; however, the energy gains attached to the primary are not needed. Boon of Creation with a few energy management skills are enough to handle energy for even the current 25 energy spirits.
The current weapon spell and health influences are fine at the current 2% mark because it still encourages active vs more passive play.
Nice number crunching btw.
The idea of defensive spirits being bound to an ally (which is basically the same as casting an enchant on a player) and have the effect influence the earshot area around that ally would be a nice way to make the spirits different from protection spells. These spirits would have to remain immobile however.
The idea of Spawning Power influencing animated and summon creatures levels seems like a decent addition; however, the energy gains attached to the primary are not needed. Boon of Creation with a few energy management skills are enough to handle energy for even the current 25 energy spirits.
The current weapon spell and health influences are fine at the current 2% mark because it still encourages active vs more passive play.
Nice number crunching btw.
I??aki
Edited the original post:
Reduced the extensiveness of the thread and easiness to read.
Eliminated the binding idea.
Modified the changes in Spawning Power
Only showing protective spirits. offensive spirits should also be changed to equal the level of activeness the protective spirits have with these changes.
Clarified the ideas for which this thread was meant for
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
Reduced the extensiveness of the thread and easiness to read.
Eliminated the binding idea.
Modified the changes in Spawning Power
Only showing protective spirits. offensive spirits should also be changed to equal the level of activeness the protective spirits have with these changes.
Clarified the ideas for which this thread was meant for
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Oso Minar This thread, while impressive in length, is entirely pointless.
Quote:
This is exactly how I see it. The only thing I don't agree on is in Draw Spirit. Instead of using another skill to place spirits, i figure casting them where they have to be is much better. And also, in addition to reducing the are of spirit AoE effect, a maximum number of allies affected is a good idea because it prevents massive damage taken. That is why Shelter reads:|
Originally Posted by street peddler
what an overly-complicated/pointless idea..
Fixed the issues in the original post to help you understand how i view it. Try to read again and look into it. I really believe that fixing the way that binding rituals work is not pointless. Quote:
You´re right. Item Spells are part of what makes a Ritualist unique.
Edited op with these idea. Quote: |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by me
Shelter(15e,3/4,2r): Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit at target ally's location for 5...12...17 seconds. That ally and 2...4...4 Non-spirit allies within earshot of the spirit cannot loose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack or spell. Whenever this Spirit prevents damage it looses 20 health.
Thanks a lot for your help and support.
Oso Minar
As it stands now, I can actually do things in PvE and PvP OTHER than just sitting around spitting spirits out. Remember the old days of Ritual Lord? Those days were TERRIBLE, and did absolutely nothing for the Ritualists. And that precicely is why people glance over us now, is because we no longer have the power of spitting spirits to our hearts' content wherever we go. And I'm perfectly happy with that. It actually lets me play the game the way I want to play it. I can be effective by not just sitting there spamming my dumb spirits all day long like y'all seem to want.
3/4 casting time? 2 second recharge? Seriously? That's just too much, man. All we would be resorted to would be spamming those spirits, Offering of Spirit, Essence Strike, and Energetic Was Lee Sa all stinkin' day long. There is absolutely no way I want to go back to that sort of playstyle. In PvP OR in PvE. Similarly, I think that you may be giving too much of an advantage to the spirits in terms of health loss. Granted, I think that some of the skills have a bit too much loss per hit, but you're neglecting the way that proper parties are run. While your suggestions for the added health / decreased helath loss may be okay for the RED ENGINE GO teams out there with terrible aggro management and all, a proper party would abuse the bejesus out of your suggestions. When you only have one tank getting all the aggro and bodyblocking around a corner, he's perfectly fine with only a Prot Monk or a Bonder helping him out; imagine if you could spam defensive spirits on him and make things even easier? Things would be far too easy. AND we would STILL be stuck spamming spirits all day. As far as your talk of how Item Spells need to have something to do with Spawning Power, I honestly don't believe there's anything really wrong with the current item system. The popular ones are all pretty powerful at the moment (with a few granted exceptions, but there are dumb spells in all classes), and to lengthen the holding time would only cause problems. As it is, the ones that you can maintain have cooldowns shorter than their recharges, and the very powerful ones that require upkeep are that way for a reason. Vengeful was Khanhei farming would be even more braindead if you could hold the ashes longer, for instance. I wouldn't mind a little leeway on Destructive was Glaive, though, but that's just me. As it is, though, I think the Item Spells are okay. You give up your weapons in return for something else, it's a question of balance. While some players think it's not worth it, I say they're simply limiting their own playstyles. ------ In all though, there are a few things that I would like to see changed. I'd be a happy camper if casting times were decreased a little, from 3s/5s to 2s/4s. As it has it, we're on the ground for a long time doing nothing, while giving the other team free potshots at inturrupting us. With a casting time that's a little faster, it will both force other teams to be on their guard as well as allow PvE characters to actually get a spirit or two off during a fight (as the AI is simply mind-boggling in effectiveness). I still grumble when I wait for Spirit Rift's 2s cast, but I can see that it's necessary for PvP changes. As it has it, there are still ways to effectively spike with a Ritualist, so I guess I can't complain too much. Some of the spirits do seem to lose an awful lot of health (such as Displacement) during RED ENGINE GO moments, and it would be nice to just test what would happen if the spirit only lost, say, 30 or 45 health points. It might help a little. ------ All in all though, the measures you are proposing are simply over the top, and would result not only in a return to those old, dumb, sit-around-and-spam-the-spirits days of old, but eventually once folks realised just how broken the skills you're proposing are, we would just get nerfed back, potentially worse than we are right now. Right now, I think that we're perfectly all right. In the hands of a skilled player, the Ritualist can do everything they were meant to do and more. I just don't think we're broken, that's all. I'm happy with the way our class is now. A little creativity in your builds goes a long way. I'm glad that these "nerfs" you talk about have in effect only opened up our class to experimentation and new things. See what happens when you make me write long things? >.< In no way do I mean to belittle anybody else in this thread. It's good to have a little bit of criticism here and there on the things that really matter, but to suggest complete overhauls like this are just too far out there, in my opinion. If we're to get anything changed, it's going to come slowly and in small increments. I would rather have ten "Oh hey, that's pretty cool" updates than one big "WOW!" followed with one big "AWW."
I??aki
Hello again everybody
Originally Posted by Oso Minar
Quote: |
|
Some of the spirits do seem to lose an awful lot of health (such as Displacement) during RED ENGINE GO moments, and it would be nice to just test what would happen if the spirit only lost, say, 30 or 45 health points. It might help a little.
This is exactly what I'm looking for in this thread. I need people from different poles to express what they feel and what should change. Just like you did. There is something we all agree on: We would like to see some kind of change to just test things out. My point of view is that Binding Rituals were meant to be a big part of the Ritualist, including Defensive spirits. As I understand, you don't want any of these changes because Ritualist should not be Quote:
prot spirit
Quote: |
Quote:
Weapon of Union (10e 2s 20r) Weapon Spell. For 8-12 seconds, when target ally receives damage half that damage is directed to you and is reduce by 3-10 points.
angelic bond
So, as everyone agrees:
- The Binding Ritual skills concept is fine as it is. What it needs is basically a balance in Casting/Recharge times and possibly cost.
- Reducing the Area of Effect of spirits is a must if balancing is to be successful. The ideal range would be within earshot.
And last:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethon
Quote:
Weapon Spells really are unique to the Ritualist, and one of the more usefull and fun type of skills they have. Yet, I have to disagree with your idea to convert Spirits into Weapon Spells, simply because Binding Rituals are also a big part of the Ritualist. And in terms of the class concept, a Ritualist with such few Spirit skills and so many Weapon Spells would not really be a Ritualist.|
Originally Posted by Calen The Civl
Sheltered was Qin. (10e, 1, 30r) Hold Qin's ashes for 10-15 seconds. While you hold these ashes party members within earshot of you cannot lose more than 10% maximum health from a single attack.
that's overpowered shelter
How is that unique ? Skill concept is good as it is imo. Few recharge/cost/casting time changes would be enough to make Rit better. Maybe switching skill lines of few skills, thats it. Aethon
That's better; I prefer essays over half-sentences any day.
@Oso: I don't want the old spirit spam anymore than you do. If spirits could be made more active, I'm hoping that spirit spam, if you could still call it that, won't be nearly as boring or mindless, although I also hope that future skill changes will be made to provide more viable alternatives for Ritualists. I'd just like to focus on spirits for now because they are the most troublesome problem, I feel. As far as Item Spells go, I'd be fine with just some minor, token effect from SP. I'm just annoyed that it seems to be the only spell category that is unique to a particular class and has no benefits from it's primary attribute at all. @Calen: I highly doubt that they would change spirits into weapon spells, since that would require a drastic overhaul on a LOT of spells. I think that, in general, reducing casting time/recharge/duration on all Binding Rituals would be a move in the right direction, along with a reduction in range to the healing/defensive (and maybe some of the utility) spirits to earshot. Lastly, changing the basic effects of Shelter/Union/Displacement may be in order. Taking a shot at fixing Shelter is in style. What have I got to lose? Shelter 15e / 2c / 30r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 8...18 seconds. All allies in earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy. There, I tried.  Now I need feedback. I have some ideas for attribute lines and whatnot, too, but one thing at a time is best, methinks. Fixing defensive spirits is essentially the same as fixing Communing, anyways.
I??aki
Thank you everyone for your help, support and new ideas.
Originally Posted by Calen The Civl
Quote: |
So, as everyone agrees:
- The Binding Ritual skills concept is fine as it is. What it needs is basically a balance in Casting/Recharge times and possibly cost.
- Reducing the Area of Effect of spirits is a must if balancing is to be successful. The ideal range would be within earshot.
And last:
Quote:
Lastly, changing the basic effects of Shelter/Union/Displacement may be in order.
Taking a shot at fixing Shelter is in style. What have I got to lose?
Shelter 15e / 2c / 30r
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 8...18 seconds. All allies in earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy. I read this and I think, why not?
Changing the effects of Shelter and Displacement would be a great idea and a great help for balancing sakes. Although, for your Shelter, I do not agree (aside of the energy regen) that for a 15e,2c,30r skill it is as useful as it should be. It seems underpowered in my opinion, but your idea is creative and fits in the name of the skill.
I think that adding a permanent +24 armor while the spirit lives is rather better, without the energy gain.
My shot:
Shelter(15e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of this Spirit gain +24 armor. This Spirit dies after 10...22...25 seconds.
I think that the within earshot is a very limiting factor in this case...I don't know.
Displacement(10e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit within earshot of the Spirit have a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. This Spirit dies after 5...12...15 seconds.
Might be cool to try out, and also do you think this Displacement is overpowered? Maybe reduce blocking to 50%?
But I think that the most important thing that we have to balance are the actual skills that would allow us to spam spirits (Ritual Lord).
What i suggested is that the skills Ritual Lord and Weapon of Quickening should affect casting times, instead of recharges, of the binding rituals. This would actually promote more active rather than passive play. What do you think?
Also, I need some more insight into the Spawning Power changes, and maybe have a vote if it should include anything related to urns, and what it would be.
Again, thanks for all the help/ideas/support.
Taking a shot at fixing Shelter is in style. What have I got to lose?
Shelter 15e / 2c / 30r
Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 8...18 seconds. All allies in earshot of this Spirit gain +15 armor while activating skills. If an ally's skill is interrupted, that ally gains 1...8 energy. I read this and I think, why not?
Changing the effects of Shelter and Displacement would be a great idea and a great help for balancing sakes. Although, for your Shelter, I do not agree (aside of the energy regen) that for a 15e,2c,30r skill it is as useful as it should be. It seems underpowered in my opinion, but your idea is creative and fits in the name of the skill.
I think that adding a permanent +24 armor while the spirit lives is rather better, without the energy gain.
My shot:
Shelter(15e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot of this Spirit gain +24 armor. This Spirit dies after 10...22...25 seconds.
I think that the within earshot is a very limiting factor in this case...I don't know.
Displacement(10e,2c,20r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit within earshot of the Spirit have a 75% chance to block incoming attacks. This Spirit dies after 5...12...15 seconds.
Might be cool to try out, and also do you think this Displacement is overpowered? Maybe reduce blocking to 50%?
But I think that the most important thing that we have to balance are the actual skills that would allow us to spam spirits (Ritual Lord).
What i suggested is that the skills Ritual Lord and Weapon of Quickening should affect casting times, instead of recharges, of the binding rituals. This would actually promote more active rather than passive play. What do you think?
Also, I need some more insight into the Spawning Power changes, and maybe have a vote if it should include anything related to urns, and what it would be.
Again, thanks for all the help/ideas/support.
Aethon
I balanced my version of Shelter as such because I didn't want it to be stronger-than or stack too well with [skill=text]Ward Against Harm[/skill] and similar skills. It's got pros and cons that I think balance it out.
And that Displacement you posted is way too good. That can keep up 75% block 75% of the time.
It's pretty late where I am, otherwise I'd take a stab at it; it's a tricksy skill to balance in relation to other skills like [skill=text]Aegis[/skill]. Whereas [skill=text]Union[/skill] would be nearly perfect with a reduced cast, recharge, radius, and duration (and a fixed description 
), I don't think [skill=text]Displacement[/skill] can really stay the way it is with the whole unconditional blocking thing going on unless we just make it feel like an Aegis or [skill=text]Ward against Melee[/skill] clone.
And that Displacement you posted is way too good. That can keep up 75% block 75% of the time.
It's pretty late where I am, otherwise I'd take a stab at it; it's a tricksy skill to balance in relation to other skills like [skill=text]Aegis[/skill]. Whereas [skill=text]Union[/skill] would be nearly perfect with a reduced cast, recharge, radius, and duration (and a fixed description ), I don't think [skill=text]Displacement[/skill] can really stay the way it is with the whole unconditional blocking thing going on unless we just make it feel like an Aegis or [skill=text]Ward against Melee[/skill] clone.
Ensign
Your concept of balance correlates very weakly with reality, if it correlates at all.
Calen The Civl
The ideas I threw onto the table don't apply to all spirits, but just those three. I know that the ideas are equivalent to various protection spells but the difference would be the inability to strip them. I do believe in a nice open brain storming session however.
Do you have any insight on these skill discussions, Ensign?
Do you have any insight on these skill discussions, Ensign?
I??aki
I fixed and updated the original thread with the new ideas and suggestions.
Aethon
@Calen: I suppose that's more reasonable than what I thought you meant, yet I doubt it will happen. Still, I'm not certain that's the best way to take things, as it is a fairly drastic change.
@Iñaki: I forgot about the armor stacking limit, and the +energy, in retrospect, is probably not going to be much consolance if one is interrupted; I guess that kind of invalidates my reasonings. Still, I felt it was kind of generic just being +armor. Maybe it could be reworked as a purely anti-interruption skill? Ritualists could use one that actually works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
@Iñaki: I forgot about the armor stacking limit, and the +energy, in retrospect, is probably not going to be much consolance if one is interrupted; I guess that kind of invalidates my reasonings. Still, I felt it was kind of generic just being +armor. Maybe it could be reworked as a purely anti-interruption skill? Ritualists could use one that actually works.
Quote:
Your concept of balance correlates very weakly with reality, if it correlates at all.
Who in this thread are you speaking to, exactly? But more importantly, how can anyone accept this statement without some justification? If something doesn't seem right, nothing is more useful than clearly stating why that is, and nothing is less useful than refusing to do so at all. Please try again for the sake of the discussion.
But just to reiterate the point of this thread, the idea is to change spirits so they can be viable without being sharply on either end of the overpowered/underpowered spectrum, and this is hoped to be achieved by altering them to require skill for proper use. Is this not a noble goal to undertake? Fail or not as we may, at least we're trying.
But just to reiterate the point of this thread, the idea is to change spirits so they can be viable without being sharply on either end of the overpowered/underpowered spectrum, and this is hoped to be achieved by altering them to require skill for proper use. Is this not a noble goal to undertake? Fail or not as we may, at least we're trying.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calen The Civl
The original poster proposed massive buffs to all of the passive defensive spirits, increasing their raw power, their durability, and their resilience to disruption. I cannot understand what he can be thinking that would make those proposed changes a good idea.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aethon
But more importantly, how can anyone accept this statement without some justification? If something doesn't seem right, nothing is more useful than clearly stating why that is
The original post included a patently absurd buff to Shelter, though it has since been edited out. It also currently includes enormous buffs to Union, Displacement, Preservation that are *obviously* out of line with every other bit of passive defense currently out there. I thought I gave all of the information I needed before; the suggestions in the original post are absurd, and all you need to reach that conclusion yourself is the ability to read his post.
All I was doing was pointing out the painfully obvious in case some readers had turned their brains off.
I??aki
Hello everyone again:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Quote: Originally, I was trying to compare the effects of the spirits to other skills, like for example comparing Shelter to Protective Spirit, but I guess its not valid since Ritualist are not Monks therefore they should not do the same thing, even if a bit different (AoE effects). That is why it was proposed to completely change the mechanics of Shelter and Displacement, and therefore the original Shelter was changed. But I still haven't been able to think about anything for Displacement. Aethon said that maybe make it a clone of ward against melee, although I don't think you would agree as I said above. This is what Displacement could possibly look like: Displacement(15e,2c,30r): Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. All non-Spirit allies within earshot have a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. This spirit dies after 1...3...4 seconds. What do you think? Imo, it lasts a bit longer than the current Displacement and has a better recharge, as well as a 2 second casting time, and since Ritual Lord would not affect recharge times, there would be no spamming. I based it mostly on [SKILL]Ward Against Melee[/SKILL] and the current Displacement. But, I can't really see why you think Union is so overpowered, as it still does the same thing, only that it is harder to kill by damage because of Spawning Power. As for Preservation, your probably right, so maybe I suggest this: Preservation(5e,2c,30r)[Elite]: Create a level 1...7...8 Spirit. Every 2 seconds, all allies within earshot of the spirit are healed for 20...45...50 Health. This Spirit dies after 2...8...10 seconds. How about that?(I'm just trying to get you to help me out a bit). Also as I said, an actual Spirit Spamming build would no longer exists, because Ritual Lord and Weapon of Quickening would not affect recharge times. But there would still be mostly-Spirits builds. Off-Topic: I love your signature, because it reminds us that since you are arguing with us, we are idiots  . Thats cool, very creative.
Aethon
@Ensign: Thank you for elaborating. I wasn't sure if you were talking to me, or Iñaki, or Calen, or someone else. I do get grumpy at one-sentence replies, but I don't have a problem if one extends their point eventually.
I assume you are referring specifically to spirit spam as it is now, being one-sided, long range, passive effects? I guess you could say we're trying to take the "spam" out of "spirit spam", while also making them less horribly rigid. Certainly we can do something to achieve this end? So far it seems that by reducing spirit's range, making them unmaintainable, and dropping their duration/casting/recharge, we can at least begin to approach this desired balance. I'd like to hear if you think this is a vain attempt or not, if there is something specific that we're overlooking and we should change our perspective on the task. @Iñaki: I think the deal with the Union listed in the first post is the fact that the original Union, when used in a situation that could use it's damage reduction faculties, would almost never last it's full duration (about ~20 hits while needing to last 45 seconds for the original, now it lasts ~20 hits but only needs to last 20). So it's like compressing the original Union's health into a shorter duration, effectively allowing one to keep it up indefinitely. The thing is that these things shouldn't be anywhere near maintainable, even at 16 points. Energy back to 15, recharge up to 30s, and make it's duration capped at ~16 seconds at 16 communing, maybe double the damage it takes. It might need further tweaking, though. I took yet another shot at Shelter. I'm really getting sick of this thing. I changed it into a utility that is far more useful to Ritualists in general: anti-interruption. Tranquil Was Tanasen sucks, let's be honest, but at least it lets us know that such an option is possible for a Ritualist skill (unlike, say, Hex removal). I took a good long look at other anti-interruption skills and they all looked pretty much maintainable, so being that this isn't, hopefully it's okay. I just wanted to get it down and out of my head.Shelter 15e / 3c / 30r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...8 Spirit that lasts 10..15 seconds. Spells and rituals performed by allies in earshot of this spirit cannot be interrupted. Whenever an interruption is negated in this way, this spirit loses 50 health. That's about 6 interrupt blocks (it can handle one every two seconds), though something like Cry of Frustration or Distracting Blow can make it implode pretty fast. Still, something doesn't feel right about it; I'll probably think of it eventually, realizing an obvious error in my logic. I always spend way too long editing and re-editing my posts, so I'll just end abruptly and take what comes. transparo
Permission to join thread
I like the OP's idea of active play and trying to make spirits more mobile/viable. ATM my RT hardly plays the communing line due to spirits long cast, long recharge, immobility and short life. If the Ritualist is regarded as "broken" it is in this area while the rest I am quite happy with it. I hate sitting for 5 seconds doing nothing while observing the ever-changing battlefield. Those 5 seconds are the most frustrating and can be fatal to the entire party. Not to mention after 5 seconds, your spirit manages only to get its head above ground and then die. Here is my wild(est) idea : Some of the health loss spirit could use a delay before their effects actually kicks in, similar to spirit rift. It gets summon and appears on the battlefield. Nothing happens until after, lets say 3 seconds, their abilities then effect the entire party. This would allow the RT to spend less time putting down spirits. (I.e. 2 cast time for shelter and 3 seconds after the spirit appears, it's effect kick in.) A good RT player would then need to concentrate on timing these delays while he could also be doing other things during those 3 second delay than casting a binding ritual. This in effect would still make shelter take 5 secs to activate while making the RT more active. For example : Shelter 25s, 2s, 45s . After 3 seconds, Non-Spirit allies within its range cannot lose more than 10% maximum Health from a single attack. When this Spirit prevents damage, it loses 75...51 Health. This spirit lasts 30...54 seconds. The only problem I see with this is making RTs less prone to interrupts. Good or bad I will leave this for discussion. IMO 2 second is more than enough for a half-decent interrupters. Some ideas I like : Displacement. making them less effective like 50% block is a good idea. And it is still powerful then, considering party wide prot for 15e. Reduce the health loss a little would be nice. For example : Displacement 15e 2s 45s Create a level 1...8 Spirit. After 3 seconds, all party members within its range have a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, this Spirit takes 40 damage. This Spirit dies after 30...54 seconds. IMO current RT protection spirits should retain there functions rather than changing them. I like my RT to have some protection capabilities to give to the party. Just make them easier to maintain, more flexibility and while balancing so they aren't too powerful to allow the old rit lord days to creep back. Some other spirit change I like to see : Preservation. Making them heal the lowest HP party member in range. Keep it single ally heal and rework on rejuvenation to make it more effective and efficient so we have more diversified spirit types .
Calen The Civl
I have never been very good at the number section of skills. I am an overall concept oriented person. The delay on the effects kicking in is interesting,transparo. It would allow signets to be applied to the spirits at least.
In an extension to the idea of the spirits being converted to item spells (although the feasibility of the idea is low I admit) kd now makes you drop an urn. This would also allow a more balanced increase of urn effects if desired. Spirits really are a thorny balance issue. By their nature they are passive, which is against the current direction of play. Yet to make them more active they almost require a complete overhaul which isnt possible.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethon
I assume you are referring specifically to spirit spam as it is now, being one-sided, long range, passive effects? I guess you could say we're trying to take the "spam" out of "spirit spam", while also making them less horribly rigid. Certainly we can do something to achieve this end? So far it seems that by reducing spirit's range, making them unmaintainable, and dropping their duration/casting/recharge, we can at least begin to approach this desired balance. I'd like to hear if you think this is a vain attempt or not, if there is something specific that we're overlooking and we should change our perspective on the task.
To be blunt I do think that you're wasting your time to a large extent, for several different reasons.
Spirits do not lend themselves to being active effects, at all. A best case scenario for them as 'active' effects would be a comparison to Ward or Aegis, neither of which are terribly active defenses. But they balance differently from those skills, because of the spirit itself. The spirit provides a built in countermeasure for a spirit, that it can be chopped down. But as you lower the natural duration of a spirit, or lower recharges, that countermeasure becomes less and less relevant. You eventually hit a situation where you simply have a passive defense that happens to pop a meaningless spirit up on the screen, as a mechanical artifact. That doesn't make any sense to me; you can reinvent what the spirit means, but the spirit really needs to still be central to the mechanic. Communing as a line is broken beyond repair. A passive skill or two on a character usually doesn't cause any balance problems; similarly, a character that runs a defensive spirit as part of a larger strategy isn't undesirable. Communing unfortunately offers very little besides making spirits; at the same time, its spirits are extremely attribute point and resource hungry. Hence it's virtually impossible to design a character that only wants 1-2 defensive Communing spirits; once you've invested in one, it almost becomes a given that you're going to invest in all of them. If a heavy spirit character is viable, it is too good. Spirit spamming is easily the most mindless mechanic in Guild Wars. If that sort of strategy is ever competitive at anything more than the most casual levels of play, you have a problem. Games need to reward effort and player skill, spirits largely do not do that. All that said, I don't think it's a complete waste of time to look at spirit mechanics. I'd suggest brainstorming along the following lines: How else can we make use of the spirit mechanic? Is there anything besides being an effect anchor or health reserve? You can continue to lower the AoEs on these skills, say to In The Area, as well as lowering their potency to compensate for the necessary duration, but is there anything better? How can you lower the attribute burden on spirits? Right now Communing spirits are the most attribute demanding skills in the game, in competition only with minions for that distinction. How do you change that so that these spirits are useful at low spec instead of requiring you to pump up multiple attributes to make them attractive? How do you discourage loading a bar up with spirits? If you already have 1-2 passive defensive skills, why doesn't a character want to take even more? As far as I can tell those are the central problems with the spirit mechanic; getting around those problems is the only way they can become a net positive addition to the game instead of a detriment. Aethon
EDIT: This is what I mean when I say I take too long to write/edit things. I missed the last post above, so I'll get to that ASAP.
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - I took some of these ideas to heart, and I'm starting to think that the simpler changes have a greater chance at being implemented. So, once again, I give it a shot, except I hope to be more faithful to the original concepts. - Shelter 20 energy / 2 casting / 30 recharge Binding Ritual. After 3 seconds, you create a level 1...8 Spirit at this location that dies after 10...18 seconds. Non-spirit allies in earshot of this spirit cannot lose more than 15% maximum health from a single attack. When this Spirit prevents damage, it takes 100...40% of the damage negated. Notes: -I upped it to 15% so it would trigger slightly less often. It will last longer, which is probably more useful than blocking that missing 5%. -I've never seen a 20 energy skill, but 15 felt too low and 25 too high. If it isn't possible, I'd rather err on the side of 25. -I cut the recharge and duration. It's spike protection, which means it should only need to stay up a little while, and this makes it more flexible to boot. - Displacement 10 energy / 2 casting / 30 recharge Binding Ritual. After 1 second, you create a level 1...8 Spirit at this location that dies after 7...16 seconds. All party members within earshot of this spirit have a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. Every time an attack is blocked in this way, this Spirit loses 21 health, and another 21 health after 1 second. Notes: -DoT allows it to live long enough to catch a spike, but then is expended shortly thereafter. -Slightly less damage on effect and a reduced activation chance results in a much longer lasting spirit. -Compare to Aegis (which still owns this thing): *Aegis has no movement restrictions, no trigger limit, activate the effect faster, and has no spirit to worry about dying. *This triggers some Ritualist spell effects and lasts a little longer under normal circumstances. - Union 15 energy / 2 casting / 30 recharge Binding Ritual. After 1 second, you create a level 1...8 Spirit at this location that dies after 10...20 seconds. Whenever a non-Spirit ally in earshot takes damage, that damage is reduced by up to 15 and the Spirit takes 200...150% of the blocked damage. Notes: -Damage taken by the spirit is increased due to the reduced recharge. -Not maintainable, but still lasts a good while. Good for anti-pressure when just meeting the enemy. -Lasts for 8 hits without SP (190). At SP=9 (258), it can last 12 hits. -The blocking description is more accurate to it's actual effect. I need specific feedback this time. The good, the bad, is it active enough, is it overstepping it's role, yadda, yadda. I tried to outline how I balanced things, so hopefully the problems can be more accurately identified. - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - I don't want to make a new post, so I'll just add more here. @Ensign: That is exactly the kind of insight I like in discussions like this. It gives us a firm foundation on exactly what points need to be resolved before we can say whether or not we have succeeded in any way. It may very well be a vain attempt, but I'd rather try and fail than never have tried; it's not like I'm being paid to do this, so there must be something about it that keeps me going. I've been at this for a while, so I'm going to take your words into consideration and reply when I can muster a more hearty response.
Quicksilver Switch-Blade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
All that said, I don't think it's a complete waste of time to look at spirit mechanics. I'd suggest brainstorming along the following lines:
How else can we make use of the spirit mechanic? Is there anything besides being an effect anchor or health reserve? You can continue to lower the AoEs on these skills, say to In The Area, as well as lowering their potency to compensate for the necessary duration, but is there anything better? How can you lower the attribute burden on spirits? Right now Communing spirits are the most attribute demanding skills in the game, in competition only with minions for that distinction. How do you change that so that these spirits are useful at low spec instead of requiring you to pump up multiple attributes to make them attractive? How do you discourage loading a bar up with spirits? If you already have 1-2 passive defensive skills, why doesn't a character want to take even more? As far as I can tell those are the central problems with the spirit mechanic; getting around those problems is the only way they can become a net positive addition to the game instead of a detriment. Some of the things that I think make spirit spamming so enticing: The primary attribute Spawning Power, before one of the recent updates, only affected spirits (and minions, but thats a big thing really), it did not affect their other two unique skill types at all, which pretty much meant that the emphasis was on spirits, or at least, thats what it seemed like. Boon of Creation-A spawning power skill that gains you minor health and energy for one spirit, but you start using multiple spirits, you get a very effective emanagement skill, but if you only have one or two spirits, due to recharge of the spirits, you would only trigger this once or twice for each spirit, making this really only useful for spirit spamming. This is also one of the few non-elite emanagement for rits. Spirit Siphon-Another skill that is only useful if spirits spamming, due to the fact it has a fast recharge, but very minor gain, and can pretty much be used once after creation and once before death (if your lucky) of a spirit so it makes the skill somewhat useful, but again, only for spirit spamming. Communing in general-This is where a majority of your spirits are, meaning you didnt have to spec into multiple lines for a spirit spammer, but also, if you chose this line, left you with not much else, other than to spirit spam. Many of these spirits also had little synergy with other skills in other lines if only one or two spirits were used. Many spirits had synergy with each other though (shelter, union, displacement/attacking spirits). Spells with conditions requiring spirits-Quite a few of rit spells require spirits to go from sup-par skill to very nice skill, but in PvP and in some cases, PvE, this is a very exploitable vulnerability if you are the only rit or the only one with spirits, as once your spirit was gone, so was your effectiveness (and many decent spirits kill themselves with their effect), but if you spammed spirits, you still were somewhat effective, though you lost your skills that required the spirits mostly, but you also didnt rely on spirits living. Ritual Lord-This skill only affects rituals, and is an elite, so if your gonna use an elite for rituals, you better have plenty of rituals to put that elite to good use (problem with this is compounded by the communing line). Lack of way to keep spirits alive-Not only does this lead to passive play (since you cant really try and heal them and all, and their are very few skills that can heal, but are limited use skills) but also makes spamming more enticing so you can keep yourself effective to your group as much as possible. All skills that require the destruction of spirit(s)-These all require spirit(s) to be destroyed to have an effect, low and behold, they are almost all in the spawning power att, since most spirits have a useful effect to the party, and due to the long recharge on most spirits, most of these skills seem very counter-productive, unless you are running a multitude of spirits, even then they aren't that enticing, but still, you get the idea. At this point in time, the ritualist would need to be almost redone in order for spirits to ever to be unique, requiring thought, and still be useful, imo. Currently spirits are the only gripe I have about ritualists, the rest of their skills are cool, and pretty good (give or take a few skills of course, but every profession has it underused or bad skills). Bargamer
I like the Minion Bombing suggestions, first off. As for the spirits side of things, the ONLY time I've ever been happy for them is when I go tear it up in the Norn Arena. Outside of that, I use Shelter/Union, and maybe one other Spirit, either Shadowsong or Dissonance, depending on the Boss I need to complete the quest. And I NEED to bring a spirit-spam build for them, because they die too quickly, even when I'm spamming. They, frankly, suck.
I'd support some sort of change to spirits, but the way you guys are going about it, you want to put the Rit into the front-lines. Ear-shot? Really? Shaman's Armor only gives +5 through +15 to Armor. I mean, heck, they MIGHT survive in PVE. But not in PVP. Aethon
I put some more thought into this problem, and came up with a quick concept draft to illustrate a few possible ways to address these issues. It quite possibly has a few holes and whatnot, so I hope to get some good feedback on it. When designing this concept draft, I used the following items as deliverables, in order of importance:
1. Reduce passivity of spirits 2. Reduce investment costs / Discourage "spamming" 3. Minimize the need to alter existing skills to conform to the new spirit paradigm 4. Allow Spawning Power to make more viable builds 5. Reduce their mobility "drag" Proposal A Concept Summary: -When a spirit is created, it is bound to target ally* -Spirits will move towards their bound ally until they reach 'in the area'** -Spirits will only affect the bound ally unless otherwise noted -Multiple spirits cannot be in use on the same team at the same time, regardless of range -Spawning Power is modified to become more viable and interesting -Attribute scaling is modified to reduce necessary investment for skill viability *Inspired by the discussions in the other thread, but I gave it a bit of a twist, as you will see. **The graphics options for such a feature are already in the game, as noted in an early Ritualist quest. The irony of the spirit in question does not escape me. Concept Details: Binding Mechanic: When a spirit is created, it is bound to target ally (if none is selected, it defaults to the caster). The spirit will follow this ally up to "in the area" range, and benefits provided by the spirit are given to this "bound ally" for so long as the spirit lives. Also note that, in order to prevent wacky body/wall-blocking hijinnks, the spirit will teleport to this target ally should it ever leave earshot range. Spirit Limitations and Peculiarities: Despite the similarities, this system provides a number of unique features to distinguish itself from other buff skills. Like current limitations, no more than one spirit of the same kind can exist at the same time on the same team, but now this limitation extends to infinite range for Binding Rituals. It is also quite possibly the most easily broken buff effect in the game, as nearly any class can easily dispose of spirits. Lastly, under some circumstances, spirits may be bound to a different ally, allowing the caster to save resources on having to cast the spirit again. Changes to Spawning Power: Despite alterations to spirits, changes to Spawning Power would be well deserved to make the class more sought after. Specifically, Spawning Power is quite weak and lacks versatility. As such, the following modification is suggested: For every 3 ranks of Spawning Power you have, creatures you create (or animate) will have one extra level. For every rank, weapon spells you cast last 2% longer and you gain 1 maximum energy while under the effects of an Item Spell. The specific reasons for this change are in part based on the alterations to the scaling of spirit-creation spells, as well as the fact that the use of item spells can often lead to negative energy, and this hopes to reduce such situations (it's like an energy loan, worded so Item Spells are more useful than picking up a random object). As for the weapon spell effect, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Investment Costs: Or rather, reducing the necessary investment costs whilst maintaining a fair return at higher levels. Given that the "new and improved" Spawning Power shall affect spirit levels, the spirit levels can be fixed. This will allow spirits to remain viable at all levels. In order to keep fair to higher investments, it is the quality of the effect that scales, rather than the quantity of effect triggers. For more specifics, see the example skills section further on. I am open to other ideas on this matter, as I am certain there may be other ways to do this, I just figure that this is the kind of change that requires the least effort to implement. Discouragement for Spamming: It is unclear to me whether or not further discouragement would be necessary if other fixes are made, however it would be best to cover this should it still be needed. Rather than list just one, I came up with several different methods to discourage this kind of behavior, and would like feedback to tell which option(s) is the best, or even if a combination would be optimal. Option 1: Caster Degeneration After casting a spirit, the caster receives one or more points of health degeneration while that spirit lives. Alternatively, this may be energy degeneration, though I suspect Ritualists might be better off with fewer energy maintenance issues. Option 2: Caster Damage Rather than the spirit taking damage for it's effects, the caster takes the damage. This would make spirit destroying skills more appealing (like a cancel stance) as well as discouraging stacking spirits with damaging effects. Again, energy can be substituted, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Option 3: Sacrifice Ritualists have something like 3 sacrifice skills, and is something I'd like to see extended upon. Perhaps casting rituals takes a part of their "essence", and as such they need to sacrifice health to pull it off. It might also make Armor of Unfeeling a bit more appealing, due to the potential for increased vulnerability while casting. Option 4: Spirit Contention When a spirit loses health, ALL allied spirits (in a certain range?) lose health. This would probably need to be combined with a general reduction in spirit health loss when their effects trigger. Could the effect be reversed for skills like Bloodsong or Vampirism? Option 5: Area Maintenance If the caster leaves a certain range, let's say earshot, then the spirit becomes less effective, takes more damage, or degenerates in some way. If they want to maintain all of them, DoT-AoE spells can actually be used effectively against the Ritualists themselves. I'm sure there may be other ways to handle this, so this is open to extension as well. Example Skills: It would be best to demonstrate how these new skills would work, I think, so here are some candidates I've chosen to represent each category of spirit. I've also included some other skills which may need tweaking, and how I'd like to see them altered to suit this new system. Note that these skills were designed with the Spirit Contention mechanic. Union 15 e - 2 c - 30 r Binding Ritual. Create and bind to target ally a level 10 spirit that dies after 8...20 seconds. Whenever bound ally takes damage, that damage is reduced by 5...16 and all spirits in earshot lose the same amount. Bloodsong 10 e - 5/4 c - 20 r Binding Ritual. Create and bind to target ally a level 10 spirit that dies after 8...20 seconds. Whenever bound ally is attacking, this spirit will perform a ranged attack at that same foe that deals 5...18 damage and heals bound ally for half that amount. Whenever this spirit deals damage, all spirits in earshot lose 20...15 health. (Note: Bloodsong gets a two-second attack rate.) Recovery 15 e / 2 c / 30 r Binding Ritual. Create and bind to target ally a level 10 spirit that dies after 10...20 seconds. Whenever bound ally casts a spell, they lose one condition. Whenever a condition is lost in this way all spirits in earshot take 20...15 damage. Empowerment 5 e - 5/4 c - 10 r Binding Ritual. Create and bind to target ally a level 10 spirit that dies after 5...30 seconds. Bound ally receives an additional 5...15 maximum health and 1...3 maximum energy for every second this spirit is bound to him. Benefits of this spirit are increased by 50% if that ally is holding an item. This spell costs 5 more energy for every spirit already bound to target ally. (Maximum health bonus = 150, maximum energy bonus = 30) (Notes: Affects all items on purpose. The contention effect is different by necessity of being a weird spirit.) Draw Spirit 5 e - 1 c - 6 r Spell. The bound spirit nearest to you is bound to target ally and teleports to his location. (Note: A rebinding skill, though I may have overlooked something with the whole rebinding mechanic, I just can't think of what.) The numbers may very well be off, but I tried to make them reasonable. Feedback is appreciated, especially if one can identify which of the deliverables it violated and any methods of solving the issue. I don't expect to be able to solve this myself, so hopefully we can work out the bugs. Suggestions are welcome, too, as I may not have considered every relevant deliverable or thought of every possibility. It took me some time to write this or I would have attempted to address some of the other problem skills, though feel free to do so yourself. Addendum: One quick question - Assuming we somehow succeed, would there need to be a change to the skills in certain attribute lines? There seems to be some strange crossovers that might give a Communing Ritualist (primarily defense), for example, access to a potent damage skill (like an updated Anguish).
Oso Minar
This is just getting silly, to be honest. Moving spirits? Binding to targets? Obviously overpowered suggestions?
This thread is quickly turning into a joke, if it hasn't already. Maybe a tiny decrease (5e to some of the bigger spirits), a tiny decrease to casting times (2s or 4s), and a slightly smaller health hit on a spirit's longevity would be helpful to the people who really really really feel like just sitting around dropping spirits all day. That's all. Calen The Civl
This is just a brainstorming thread, oso. Creative thought is the path to finding a solution to the passivity and the broken nature of the communing line as Ensign has illustrated.
As for my outlandish idea: limit spirits to 1 per ritualist and make them similar to a combination of a pet and a minion. The spirit will follow the ritualist and be upward to lvl 20. Like a pet it would have controls but have a set duration to live. Allow the spirits to receive weapon spells but not enchantments. Spirits would have ranged attacks or even melee if desired. Basically, a spirit will turn into a familiar for the ritualist. This is just an idea to throw into the pile. It is not very well conceived but would make the communing tree more active as the ritualist must choose the right spirit for a given situation and then control that spirit directly. Dissonance and other spirits would have to be modified however. Develop the idea or discard it. A little out of the box brainstorming never hurt anything.
Dean Harper
seems kinda pointless... i like rits the way they are....
I??aki
I would like to change the subject of the thread and just make this a poll:
Who thinks that the Communing line should be changed, fixed or whatever you want to call it?, If Anet made a mistake in implementing Spirits like Shelter and Displacement to promote passive play and no skill in Spirit Spamming, should Anet simply remove Communing from the game? Should the uniqueness of the Ritualist come from Weapon Spells and Item Spells only, and forget about Binding Rituals? Is there anything wrong with Communing, and the defensive spirits? If there is, then what would be the point in having a Primary Attribute that affects Spirits Health? Should Spawning Power also be changed? Calen The Civl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iñaki
I would like to change the subject of the thread and just make this a poll:
Who thinks that the Communing line should be changed, fixed or whatever you want to call it?, If Anet made a mistake in implementing Spirits like Shelter and Displacement to promote passive play and no skill in Spirit Spamming, should Anet simply remove Communing from the game? Should the uniqueness of the Ritualist come from Weapon Spells and Item Spells only, and forget about Binding Rituals? Is there anything wrong with Communing, and the defensive spirits? If there is, then what would be the point in having a Primary Attribute that affects Spirits Health? Should Spawning Power also be changed? The Communing skill tree does need a closer look, but it does not need removed in my view (nor will Anet remove it). Spirits are too passive, however, and encourage turtling tactics in pvp. In addition, spirits are too immobile and weak for pve. The damage they do is nice for both areas but their mechanics are rather unwieldy. They are simply too attribute and time intensive. The defensive spirits are inherently flawed in their mechanics. As they are now, they are either too strong or worthless. Although I do enjoy spirit bombing on occasion and am guilty of spirit spamming in pvp in the past, I would prefer the defensive spirits converted into either item or weapon spells and all other spirits converted to a familiar-like summon that can receive weapon spells. Spirit familiars would be capped at 1 per ritualist. I would also prefer any other sound, well developed active solution instead of the current depreciative passive spirit play. However, I am not certain how energy intensive such a change would be for the programmers. I assume spirits are a separate class object and changes in that class would influence all objects that extend that class. Any significant change to the communing tree would require spawning power to be reworked as well. The two trees depend upon each other. ---- I rarely use spirits anymore when I play. I prefer to run the other skill trees. Spirits only enter my bar to achieve the skill conditions. Calen The Civl
Edit: Double Post
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iñaki
I would like to change the subject of the thread and just make this a poll:
Who thinks that the Communing line should be changed, fixed or whatever you want to call it?, If Anet made a mistake in implementing Spirits like Shelter and Displacement to promote passive play and no skill in Spirit Spamming, should Anet simply remove Communing from the game? Should the uniqueness of the Ritualist come from Weapon Spells and Item Spells only, and forget about Binding Rituals? Is there anything wrong with Communing, and the defensive spirits? If there is, then what would be the point in having a Primary Attribute that affects Spirits Health? Should Spawning Power also be changed? Communing has a three big problems: 1) Requires you to spec very heavily in both communing and spawning power, leading to one dimensional builds. You either spam all the spirits or you don't bother. I don't really see an easy way to fix this without completely changing things. 2) The active spells in the communing line are generally crap too. Fixing this might help the line a bit. Dulled weapon and binding chains anyone? 3) Spirits are passive and generally require zero skill. This could be tweaked by lowering the health of spirits, but raising the effectiveness of spirit support skills, like signet of binding or spirit boon strike - instead of catching the spike on a player, you catch it on the spirit. As for spawning power as a primary attribute, it really sucks. The only time it's ever worth speccing in for the effect is if you're spamming spirits, which is lame. The 2% extra time on weapon spells is a complete joke. Yay, if I waste half my attribute points, my weapon of warding will last 1-2 seconds longer. Big friggin whoop. The skills in spawning power are mediocre at best, and are rarely a reason to spec in it anyway. A last ditch way to balance defensive spirits would be to have them affect both teams, same as a ranger spirit, and get rid of the health loss aspect entirely. Thus, they become more tactical skills that you avoid using unless you want to screw your offense. Zahr Dalsk
Binding chains should be changed so that it doesn't run out when the enemy takes damage; that makes it worthless as a snare. It can already be removed by hex removal so it's just as fair to have it end only be duration as it is for the elementalist snaring skills.
Aethon
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Originally Posted by Iñaki
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If there is, then what would be the point in having a Primary Attribute that affects Spirits Health? Should Spawning Power also be changed?
Spawning Power needs to do something relevant to skills beyond just spirits (the weapon spell clause doesn't help much). Leaving it unaltered just means that Ritualists are being neglected. Ignoring the weak Weapon Spell addition to SP, the only benefit to being a primary Ritualist is that spirits get more health. Oh sure, so do minions, but a primary Necromancer will be better in all but niche applications. So, it seems designed specifically for spirits that lose health on effect; this is the most narrow and useless primary attribute effect in the game. It doesn't give these spirits a notable boost in health, so it's all about the skills in SP. There are some okay ones, but do they really make being a primary Rt more appealing than being an N/Rt? Or an E/Rt? Or even a freaking Me/Rt? ---- I'm going to throw out some questions, too: Should Rt attributes be designed around a skill type (EX. communing = spirits, channeling = urns, restoration = weapon spells) or around their usage (EX. communing = defense, channeling = damage, restoration = healing)? Or something else? Right now it feels like a muddled compromise between the two distributions I have listed. Are Ritualist skills too conditional? (i.e. in earshot of spirit, under effects of a weapon spell, etc.) Are the possible skill conditions really fulfilled to their potential? I'd love to see more stuff adjusted to act like Spirit Rift or Ancestor's Rage, where they have interesting effects besides "you must spam at least one spirit/weapon spell". ---- The reason I was participating in these threads was that I wanted a basic change to what it meant for a skill to be a binding ritual, rather than just letting Arena.net nerf them, and then proceed to forget about them because they're passive. I want them to become active, usable, and balanced. I've looked over Izzy's userpage, where one can petition changes, but have yet to post anything due to inexperience with a wiki. Apparently he's been "out to lunch" in terms of responding there lately, but I think it needs more exposure to matters like this. So, Zahr, you can use this to petition for a change specifically to Binding Chains, like a number of individuals have done before you. If anyone intends to post something, make sure you're on the right subpage. ---- For the sake of convenient reference, at least for myself, I have listed all proposals from both threads that I could remember, in simplified form: 1. Give spirits charges, which are expended instead of health 2. Bind spirit effects to an ally, which then affects just that ally and nearby allies 3. Give spirits effects that trigger only on an ally's actions 4. Alter existing skill primitives (i.e. energy, casting time, recharge, duration, etc.) 5. Change the problem spirits to non-spirit skills 6. Turn them into something akin to weapon spells, but the effect is granted by a spirit following the affected ally 7. Limit binding rituals to 1 of any kind at any time, acting like a "spirit pet" for the caster |