I hate my Paragon.
Why? Because now all of my other characters seem FAR inferior, and I cannot make myself play them anymore.
O
Paragon: Dead Class?
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I gotta say I'm a bit concerned about all these calls to further nerf the paragon. The class is by no means currently dead, but alot of its skills are. In fact, I'd say of all the classes it currently has the fewest viable skills. If anet takes your advice and starts knocking down the better skills that are left the paragon wont have much to stand on.
Anyway, I'm a bit skeptical of these claims of the paragon currently being overpowered. Warrior dps still beats out the paragon, plenty of backline professors get by just fine without super armor. Maybe the paragon can out-protect a monk, but he probably doesnt stand a chance at that without the pve skills. And sure, the paragon can do a bit of everything, but a well rounded team can already do alot of everything. But by all means, please post some builds to prove me wrong about that...
Anyway, I'm a bit skeptical of these claims of the paragon currently being overpowered. Warrior dps still beats out the paragon, plenty of backline professors get by just fine without super armor. Maybe the paragon can out-protect a monk, but he probably doesnt stand a chance at that without the pve skills. And sure, the paragon can do a bit of everything, but a well rounded team can already do alot of everything. But by all means, please post some builds to prove me wrong about that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trx
Though I agree with most of what you're saying these statements dont sound like they are based on any kind of facts. There are alot of terrible players in this game but I dont believe its worse with paragons then any other class.
Terrible Elementalists still take spells that do damage and they cast them on things. Terrible Monks still make red bars go up. Terrible Warriors still stand in front (with a bit of prodding) and have a lot of armor. Terrible Paragons stand there and do nothing. That is the main difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Anyone who plays paragon correctly will tell you their paragon is rarely the target of a pve mob. Or anyone that has played with a paragon hero will have noticed that the hero never really needs to be healed aside from the occasional damaged caused by AoE or the spreading of hexes. *If* -20 was 30% more damage, There's Nothing To Fear! would cancel out that out anyway. It's not like you're 106 AL paragon even needs the 35% damage reduction of a maxed Sunspear Track currently anyway.
Or, you can just press your escape key and stop attacking to regain your 20 armour if the mob for some reason decides your 86 armour is suddenly squisher than the rest of your 60 AL group.
Again, if the paragons you've seen play choose to stand in AoEs they should be more concerned about learning how to play. Paragons don't get attacked in PvE unless you literally are not paying attention (which does happen since they take very little thinking to play effectively, you may nod off when paragoning).
If the only thing that's going to get hit for paragons to make them as balanced as the community wants is this -10 or -20 while attacking, then people should really wake up and try this broken profession themselves. This should really wake them up about the whole Paragon ordeal. I really think that PvP and PvE shouldn't be meshed like this though. Wouldn't it be a better world if A-net can find a way to get a nice balanced center in these skills for PvE and PvP, both different, but both balanced for those styles of play. That shouldn't be too hard, and It would keep people's mouth shut.
Like you said, there isn't really any danger in being in the middle of the fighting if you pay attention to what the hell you are doing. My Paragon rarely ever dies. I have indomitable on him, and I never even tried to get survivor in the first place. I don't pride myself on being a good player either, because I really suck with most professions. (I don't get how those monks do it...so...much...micro-managing...) But, for some reason, I rule with the Paragon.
In the end, I actually approve of your arguing. Paragon lovers, cheer on the decline in Paragon love! That means greens, runes, and insignias are all the more cheaper.
Or, you can just press your escape key and stop attacking to regain your 20 armour if the mob for some reason decides your 86 armour is suddenly squisher than the rest of your 60 AL group.
Again, if the paragons you've seen play choose to stand in AoEs they should be more concerned about learning how to play. Paragons don't get attacked in PvE unless you literally are not paying attention (which does happen since they take very little thinking to play effectively, you may nod off when paragoning).
If the only thing that's going to get hit for paragons to make them as balanced as the community wants is this -10 or -20 while attacking, then people should really wake up and try this broken profession themselves. This should really wake them up about the whole Paragon ordeal. I really think that PvP and PvE shouldn't be meshed like this though. Wouldn't it be a better world if A-net can find a way to get a nice balanced center in these skills for PvE and PvP, both different, but both balanced for those styles of play. That shouldn't be too hard, and It would keep people's mouth shut.
Like you said, there isn't really any danger in being in the middle of the fighting if you pay attention to what the hell you are doing. My Paragon rarely ever dies. I have indomitable on him, and I never even tried to get survivor in the first place. I don't pride myself on being a good player either, because I really suck with most professions. (I don't get how those monks do it...so...much...micro-managing...) But, for some reason, I rule with the Paragon.
In the end, I actually approve of your arguing. Paragon lovers, cheer on the decline in Paragon love! That means greens, runes, and insignias are all the more cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
Terrible Elementalists still take spells that do damage and they cast them on things. Terrible Monks still make red bars go up. Terrible Warriors still stand in front (with a bit of prodding) and have a lot of armor. Terrible Paragons stand there and do nothing. That is the main difference.
Don't believe I was argueing the fact that bad paragon players are less effective then bad players of another class. To state that the majority of the paragon community are very bad at the game and that they mostly have their lack of skill and bad builds to thank for it that pugs wont take em is something else though 
.
Quote: Originally Posted by Bouldershoulder
.Quote: Originally Posted by Bouldershoulder
In the end, I actually approve of your arguing. Paragon lovers, cheer on the decline in Paragon love! That means greens, runes, and insignias are all the more cheaper.
Hehe indeed, I like playing the paragon because its one of the least played classes in PvE. People that play them generaly know they are a good PvE class, I don't really care what the average pug player thinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trx
There are alot of terrible players in this game but I dont believe its worse with paragons then any other class.
Almost every paragon I've seen runs 0-3 spear mastery, which is completely pointless. I had one yesterday in AB follow people around and try to heal them with signet of synergy. You see the same problem with the warrior and sin class. Thanks to a pile of really bad players when Factions first came out, everyone thinks sins are squishier than jello on a hot day. As for warriors, no one seems to realize the insane damage they can do thanks to a horde of mending/riposte/power attack wammos who make everyone else look bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
To put it short (and as blunt as I can without getting myself banned for life)...
Thanks to TNTF, Paragons are the most powerful profession in Guild Wars PvE, bar none. I agree, but they are only that powerful using certain predetermined skills and skill sets. That is an unfortunate situation for any profession.
While a strong advocate of the Paragon class, and someone who considers his paragon one of his "main" characters, I still have to admit that nerfing things is occasionally a necessity--anyone with a brain can tell that TNTF! and Aggressive Refrain are abnormally strong next to comparable skills of other classes. That doesn't mean I want them nerfed, but I can't say I'd be surprised if they did.
However if they're going to nerf "There's Nothing to Fear!" and Aggressive Refrain, I really think they need to take another look at the Motivation line, "Incoming!" and perhaps re-examine which Shouts and Chants affect allies/party members.
Thanks to TNTF, Paragons are the most powerful profession in Guild Wars PvE, bar none. I agree, but they are only that powerful using certain predetermined skills and skill sets. That is an unfortunate situation for any profession.
While a strong advocate of the Paragon class, and someone who considers his paragon one of his "main" characters, I still have to admit that nerfing things is occasionally a necessity--anyone with a brain can tell that TNTF! and Aggressive Refrain are abnormally strong next to comparable skills of other classes. That doesn't mean I want them nerfed, but I can't say I'd be surprised if they did.
However if they're going to nerf "There's Nothing to Fear!" and Aggressive Refrain, I really think they need to take another look at the Motivation line, "Incoming!" and perhaps re-examine which Shouts and Chants affect allies/party members.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iridescentfyre
I agree, but they are only that powerful using certain predetermined skills and skill sets. That is an unfortunate situation for any profession.
That is the same situation that every profession besides Warrior, Monk, and to a lesser extent Elementalist is in.
The existance of the skills should come into question if they need to be nerfed for doing what the dev team wanted them to do in the first place. Toning down specific skills because they work "too" well is the most insane set of reasoning anyone can ever use.
That same reasoning is what causes the majority of great/good skills to go to the Ether Renewal Graveyard. Not saying that a penalty to keeping an nearly infinite IAS running isn't needed, but honestly, didn't this cross someone's mind when it was created?
If you give me candy for free for 5 months straight, do you expect me to even think to pay for what I got for free for 5 months in the 6th month if I was never told of that stipulation? And, do you expect me to be happy about it if I have no choice in the matter?
Hence, the mixed opinions. Hence, this thread's creation.
The truth is that what Ensign and Iridescentfyre said is a QFT in combination. Besides the RPG Trinity, every profession is moderately under siege when it comes to how a "Skill Balance" comes about.
If it's too popular, too good with "X" skill set, or Gamebreaking on its own, then the nerf bat is brandished. Yet, the dev team knew what they were doing when they made it, right? AR was made to constantly stay up on a heavy adrenaline based spear throwing shout machine that has an energy pool that is filled not by regeneration, but by the very shouts/chants they created it to use. They had to see the uses to come in the warrior line and vise/versa, hence the creation of Vocal Minority and other anti shout/chant skills, spells, and countermeasures.
They knew what it would be used to do. GfTE! and AoF alone can keep energy flowing and damage output high. Add ToF! and damage mitigation is not even in the same league as Aegis, but very synergistic with blocking 75% and reducing what gets through by almost 33%. Then they make TNTF! to mitigate another 33% and heal for nearly 60hp to the whole party for every 10s?
And you thought that when you increase the recharge of TNTF! and make AR into a paragon version of Frenzy that people were just going to swallow it like good little children? Fat chance!
These changes are obvious for the fact that the 2 skills were gamebreaking in the sense that TNTF! in PvE made a dramatic difference when put in this particular build, and almost everything burns(Until the destroyers) and AR is the only IAS that has no penalty for it being used.
Yet, they made it pre nerf anyway? Pfft, too funny.
That same reasoning is what causes the majority of great/good skills to go to the Ether Renewal Graveyard. Not saying that a penalty to keeping an nearly infinite IAS running isn't needed, but honestly, didn't this cross someone's mind when it was created?
If you give me candy for free for 5 months straight, do you expect me to even think to pay for what I got for free for 5 months in the 6th month if I was never told of that stipulation? And, do you expect me to be happy about it if I have no choice in the matter?
Hence, the mixed opinions. Hence, this thread's creation.
The truth is that what Ensign and Iridescentfyre said is a QFT in combination. Besides the RPG Trinity, every profession is moderately under siege when it comes to how a "Skill Balance" comes about.
If it's too popular, too good with "X" skill set, or Gamebreaking on its own, then the nerf bat is brandished. Yet, the dev team knew what they were doing when they made it, right? AR was made to constantly stay up on a heavy adrenaline based spear throwing shout machine that has an energy pool that is filled not by regeneration, but by the very shouts/chants they created it to use. They had to see the uses to come in the warrior line and vise/versa, hence the creation of Vocal Minority and other anti shout/chant skills, spells, and countermeasures.
They knew what it would be used to do. GfTE! and AoF alone can keep energy flowing and damage output high. Add ToF! and damage mitigation is not even in the same league as Aegis, but very synergistic with blocking 75% and reducing what gets through by almost 33%. Then they make TNTF! to mitigate another 33% and heal for nearly 60hp to the whole party for every 10s?
And you thought that when you increase the recharge of TNTF! and make AR into a paragon version of Frenzy that people were just going to swallow it like good little children? Fat chance!
These changes are obvious for the fact that the 2 skills were gamebreaking in the sense that TNTF! in PvE made a dramatic difference when put in this particular build, and almost everything burns(Until the destroyers) and AR is the only IAS that has no penalty for it being used.
Yet, they made it pre nerf anyway? Pfft, too funny.
W
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
To put it short (and as blunt as I can without getting myself banned for life)...
Thanks to TNTF, Paragons are the most powerful profession in Guild Wars PvE, bar none. Thanks to Aggressive Refrain and Leadership, Paragons are one of the most powerful professions in the game itself, when you get down to the basics and start crunching numbers about how much damage you can pump out with them, combined with the amount of support you can crank out with the adrenaline you gain from the increased attack speed (assuming you aren't Blind half the time or more from Eruption, or something) and the energy you gain from using that adrenaline. You essentially have everything you need in one bar of eight skills (some of the following may vary depending on the skills you choose): healing, damage, self protection, party protection, party damage augmentation, energy management, IAS... The works. I'm not a hardcore PvP player like some of the other people who post on these kinds of subjects, but even I can see how horribly strong the profession is (though admittedly, it does have its faults).
If you think Paragons are bad because of the nerfs, or dead, you are wrong, and need to review some game basics. Dervishes can give paragons a run for their money in PvE land. Eternal Aura is just obscene with Melandru. Paragons are good, incredibly good, and anyone who says otherwise is flat out ignorant. I personally put paras as my #2 PvE class due to the derv's ability to spearhead an unstoppable offense in PvE and how they take so well to buffing. Pre-TNTF nerf, paras were without a doubt #1.
Thanks to TNTF, Paragons are the most powerful profession in Guild Wars PvE, bar none. Thanks to Aggressive Refrain and Leadership, Paragons are one of the most powerful professions in the game itself, when you get down to the basics and start crunching numbers about how much damage you can pump out with them, combined with the amount of support you can crank out with the adrenaline you gain from the increased attack speed (assuming you aren't Blind half the time or more from Eruption, or something) and the energy you gain from using that adrenaline. You essentially have everything you need in one bar of eight skills (some of the following may vary depending on the skills you choose): healing, damage, self protection, party protection, party damage augmentation, energy management, IAS... The works. I'm not a hardcore PvP player like some of the other people who post on these kinds of subjects, but even I can see how horribly strong the profession is (though admittedly, it does have its faults).
If you think Paragons are bad because of the nerfs, or dead, you are wrong, and need to review some game basics. Dervishes can give paragons a run for their money in PvE land. Eternal Aura is just obscene with Melandru. Paragons are good, incredibly good, and anyone who says otherwise is flat out ignorant. I personally put paras as my #2 PvE class due to the derv's ability to spearhead an unstoppable offense in PvE and how they take so well to buffing. Pre-TNTF nerf, paras were without a doubt #1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Paragons can maintain "Save Yourselves!".
I don't see how there is a discussion. QFT
Even if TNTF got nerfed, I find unremovable, maintainable (almost, in some cases) +100 armor along with unremovable 15-35% damage reduction up for ~50% of a battle with a 20-60 party heal when it's over very hard to beat, defense-wise.
I don't see how there is a discussion. QFT
Even if TNTF got nerfed, I find unremovable, maintainable (almost, in some cases) +100 armor along with unremovable 15-35% damage reduction up for ~50% of a battle with a 20-60 party heal when it's over very hard to beat, defense-wise.
I liked my paragon,....at first.
After a while i wanted to buy him 15k armour and realised that there is none that looks good. Could i live with an average looking armour? Yeah, i guess i could, if they would at least have helmets!!!!
Fighting with spear and shield, ancient design and yet no helmets? Crazy! Honestly, this may not be logic but that ruined the Paragon for me.
After a while i wanted to buy him 15k armour and realised that there is none that looks good. Could i live with an average looking armour? Yeah, i guess i could, if they would at least have helmets!!!!
Fighting with spear and shield, ancient design and yet no helmets? Crazy! Honestly, this may not be logic but that ruined the Paragon for me.
D
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
I love seeing topics like this, because Paras are the most broken class in the game.
Infinite energy? YES
IAS that lasts forever and is unstrippable? YES
Attacks for sword damage at long range and is under IAS and has 94 Armor? YES agreed. there are many ways to counter the nerf...even though it was easier with TNTF.
Infinite energy? YES
IAS that lasts forever and is unstrippable? YES
Attacks for sword damage at long range and is under IAS and has 94 Armor? YES agreed. there are many ways to counter the nerf...even though it was easier with TNTF.
c
Isn't frenzy a good alternative to AR? Double dmg taken is not that much if I don't get hit. So could someone explain why frenzy isn't used on a ranged tank with 106AL and 30%dmg reduction and maybe a cancel stance. AR is more energy eficient but it also requires a usless chant (anthem of flame) to maintain it because I can't always bring ToF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by candyman_sb
Isn't frenzy a good alternative to AR? Double dmg taken is not that much if I don't get hit. So could someone explain why frenzy isn't used on a ranged tank with 106AL and 30%dmg reduction and maybe a cancel stance. AR is more energy eficient but it also requires a usless chant (anthem of flame) to maintain it because I can't always bring ToF.
Why waste your energy on Frenzy and risk getting double damage when you can use AR once before battle and keep it up all the time by spamming the skills you're going to end up spamming anyway?
D
(and get infinite energy from them)
EDIT: For comparison sakes:
Frenzy:
+IAS!!!
-Double damage
-Can be removed
-Doesnt synergize well with other stuff
-You need a cancel stance just in case
AR:
+IAS!!!
+Synergizes with GftE for INFINITE ENERGYYYY
+Unstrippable
+Lasts forever
+Dont need a cancel stance
+Stacks with stances
+Doesnt make you take double damage
-? I got nothing.
EDIT: For comparison sakes:
Frenzy:
+IAS!!!
-Double damage
-Can be removed
-Doesnt synergize well with other stuff
-You need a cancel stance just in case
AR:
+IAS!!!
+Synergizes with GftE for INFINITE ENERGYYYY
+Unstrippable
+Lasts forever
+Dont need a cancel stance
+Stacks with stances
+Doesnt make you take double damage
-? I got nothing.
B
Quit ruining this for us paragons, we're supposed to suck remember. Lets make them keep thinking this way. Boo ho , no more nerfs paragons suck lmao ..... paragons are a sick class, very very strong and versatile. No paragons are not monks, no they are not warriors, no they don't do interrupts, damn they just had to settle with moderate energy and healing ability with a decent dps and excellent party wide defensive capabilities all while buffing the parties dmg. Shit.... i'd delete my paragon but i'm a glutton for punishment.
/sarcasm off
/sarcasm off
c
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkantos
Why waste your energy on Frenzy and risk getting double damage when you can use AR once before battle and keep it up all the time by spamming the skills you're going to end up spamming anyway?
Like I said, whats the chance to get hit as a paragon? Mobs go for the one who agroes them first or for those with low armor/health. And don't tell me that anthem of flame is usefull. How else can I maintain AR betwen fights? ToF is another alternative but if I can't always bring it if my team has no SF eles.
Frenzy costs more energy but at least I don't have to stop every 10 secs and cast a chant that does nothing but to slow me down.
To DarkNecrid.
What synergy are u talking about? Just because AR gets refreshed by Gfte? Thats like saying frenzy synergizes with the paragon cause hes a tank and mobs don't target him. And how many mobs remove stances?
THIS IS FOR PVE not PVP. Altough if wars use frenzy in pvp it should work for paras too.
Of course AR is better, I just said frenzy is a good alternative for those who don't like spamming anthem of flame betwen fights.
Frenzy costs more energy but at least I don't have to stop every 10 secs and cast a chant that does nothing but to slow me down.
To DarkNecrid.
What synergy are u talking about? Just because AR gets refreshed by Gfte? Thats like saying frenzy synergizes with the paragon cause hes a tank and mobs don't target him. And how many mobs remove stances?
THIS IS FOR PVE not PVP. Altough if wars use frenzy in pvp it should work for paras too.
Of course AR is better, I just said frenzy is a good alternative for those who don't like spamming anthem of flame betwen fights.