Ok, so this is relatively old news, rehashed by someone that doesn't know how to test properly that then goes and flames the people who already know this and have proved he hasn't tested his theory right...
Ok, close please
DAGGERS! 15^50 vs. Energy +5!
Lonesamurai
fenix
Yeah, if you want to test something, then post it up, do it right. Then you go and flame people for correcting you? That's a laugh. In summary:
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
Saphatorael
Right, time to jump in and test it with Crit hits.
I just hopped to Isle of the Nameless, with 2 Dagger sets. One 15^50, one +5E, both are customized.
I brought one skill on my skillbar: Wild BLOW (Read the description, sheesh)
My attributes were: 13 Critical Strikes, 12 Dagger Mastery (commonly used, the spare points are put in Shadow/Deadly Arts, or a secondary's attribute.)
15^50 set on the 60 AL doll: 33 Damage.
+5e set on the 60 AL doll: 29 Damage.
15^50 set on the 80 AL doll: 23 Damage
+5e set on the 80 AL doll: 20 Damage
15^50 set on the 100 AL doll: 17 Damage
+5e set on the 100 AL doll: 14 Damage
All this testing took me less than 3 minutes. It's all that needs to be done, given the low damage 'brackets' of Daggers. The biggest difference is enough, since this is just supposed to show how it hardly matters.
Now, it's obvious that the damage hardly decreases (differences will be even smaller with non-crit hits), but it has been stated before that, in GW, the tiniest of things can matter (even split seconds, for interrupts).
Monks go full Survivor insignia, and don't put Radiant insignia on their armor. They prefer 5 Health over 1 Energy (even though Energy Denial isn't that popular anymore, because of... zomg weapon swapping), for a reason.
To ensure that you're able to kill them, you'll need just that tiny extra bit of damage from the 15^50 daggers, imo. Dagger chains consist out of 4-5 skills, and that'll be 15-30 more damage in the spike if you have 15^50 Daggers.
If I'm DP'ed, and really need the energy for the chain, I'll switch to my +5e set. But for now, I'm still not too lazy to press F1 and F2 every now and then.
THESE NUMBERS are more valid than those from the OP. It's up to you wether you want to go for a little bit of extra damage, or use your +5e set straight away (if you barely have enough energy to do it with a +5e set in the start already, if you're DP'ed, your spike can't work, unless you get lucky with crit hits.. and I prefer to not depend on luck).
Or as stated before, long story short: it's a matter of preference.
Or, you could make up for it by switching to a vamp +5e set when spiking.
PS: And err, how could you even bother trying to make stats using only 10 hits? That's not representative at all. I may have tested using only 1 hit per set, per doll, but I've manipulated the conditions for actual representative results, as opposed to you.
EDIT: Heh, I just read the OP again, more thoroughly this time... not to bash you or anything (I'm breaking down your theory and calculations, rather), but it's just a confirmation that your statistics are utter tripe.
Quote:
* Hitting critical hits sort of messed the averages up,
I just hopped to Isle of the Nameless, with 2 Dagger sets. One 15^50, one +5E, both are customized.
I brought one skill on my skillbar: Wild BLOW (Read the description, sheesh)
My attributes were: 13 Critical Strikes, 12 Dagger Mastery (commonly used, the spare points are put in Shadow/Deadly Arts, or a secondary's attribute.)
15^50 set on the 60 AL doll: 33 Damage.
+5e set on the 60 AL doll: 29 Damage.
15^50 set on the 80 AL doll: 23 Damage
+5e set on the 80 AL doll: 20 Damage
15^50 set on the 100 AL doll: 17 Damage
+5e set on the 100 AL doll: 14 Damage
All this testing took me less than 3 minutes. It's all that needs to be done, given the low damage 'brackets' of Daggers. The biggest difference is enough, since this is just supposed to show how it hardly matters.
Now, it's obvious that the damage hardly decreases (differences will be even smaller with non-crit hits), but it has been stated before that, in GW, the tiniest of things can matter (even split seconds, for interrupts).
Monks go full Survivor insignia, and don't put Radiant insignia on their armor. They prefer 5 Health over 1 Energy (even though Energy Denial isn't that popular anymore, because of... zomg weapon swapping), for a reason.
To ensure that you're able to kill them, you'll need just that tiny extra bit of damage from the 15^50 daggers, imo. Dagger chains consist out of 4-5 skills, and that'll be 15-30 more damage in the spike if you have 15^50 Daggers.
If I'm DP'ed, and really need the energy for the chain, I'll switch to my +5e set. But for now, I'm still not too lazy to press F1 and F2 every now and then.
THESE NUMBERS are more valid than those from the OP. It's up to you wether you want to go for a little bit of extra damage, or use your +5e set straight away (if you barely have enough energy to do it with a +5e set in the start already, if you're DP'ed, your spike can't work, unless you get lucky with crit hits.. and I prefer to not depend on luck).
Or as stated before, long story short: it's a matter of preference.
Or, you could make up for it by switching to a vamp +5e set when spiking.
PS: And err, how could you even bother trying to make stats using only 10 hits? That's not representative at all. I may have tested using only 1 hit per set, per doll, but I've manipulated the conditions for actual representative results, as opposed to you.
EDIT: Heh, I just read the OP again, more thoroughly this time... not to bash you or anything (I'm breaking down your theory and calculations, rather), but it's just a confirmation that your statistics are utter tripe.
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UNDENIABLE PROOF
Undeniable proof when you admit there's a fault in the calculations? Even if you 'solve' the problem by directing us to the possibility of Critical Hits, which has no relevance at all to the actual damage being dealt (or, more importantly, the difference between the 2 inscriptions)? Your stats are equally valid as to what you think you've proven, but, I can also use your statistics to say that I had more damage with a +5e set when doing a critical hit, than when wielding a 15^50 set and having a normal, non-crit hit. Hell yes, it's undeniable! These numbers and my statement, the possibilities of it all, +5e Daggers CAN be better than 15^50's!
Mekkakat
imo the only time a sin should swap is for elemental damage.. period.
15^50 or +5, whatever you choose of the two, i prefer 15^50. i use 15^50 Zealous AT ALL TIMES (+30 hp) and if for whatever reason, then team would be using say.. mark of rog or something, i would swap for fire obviously. if you swap at all besides elemental, it should (or would) only be for a longbow for pulling, and a staff of fort, and a staff of enchanting of some sort, so that you can use your hard res/heals/escape moves/shadowfarm build whatever. and another thing.. sins that use +5 energy weapons seem kind sad imo. critical strikes with a zealous weapon should be more than enough.. and if it isnt... well.. you fail at pve. you shouldnt need some double black combo to kill some grawls...
Coloneh
1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.
2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better. nice try
Saphatorael
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.
2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better. nice try Try reading this? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=43
Faer
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Originally Posted by Mekkakat
if it isnt... well.. you fail at Guild Wars.
I like fixing things.
Mekkakat
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
1. you didnt do enough trials to get a an average that means anything.
2. everyone already knew that +5 energy daggers were generally better. nice try the damage spectrum in a game like gws doesnt allow mass quantities of damage flux in the game, otherwise, 15^50 would be doing 20-30 more damage than +5 energy crap. even if the damage is minimal, any boost in damage is going to put you at an advantage more so than the guy trying to boost his sins energy pool over 35. if you need more energy, take another set with +energy.. if you really need that swap, maybe you need more practice anyhow. the +5 energy is a waste, when you could get an extra 4-7 damage out of each skill in your dagger chain.
Ensign
Saphatorael said what needed to be said about the original posted. 10 isn't a big enough sample size to draw any real conclusions from using normal attacks.
The only thing I'd like to add is to not overlook the vampiric / zealous choice. It's almost as significant as the +5e / 15>50 choice for a given combo. Against a soft target, you're looking at +24 damage at best from 15>50 using a off/dual/off/dual, if everything cits: if nothing crits you're getting a bit better than half that; if half crit, you're getting around +19 to +20 from 15>50. Vampiric over Zealous on a 6 hit combo will do +18 every time. The energy is roughly the same as well - the Zealous is worth 6 energy over the course of a combo, +5 is worth, well, that. There's a pretty even set of steps on your daggers for damage vs energy, vampiric/15>50, zealous/15>50 (or vampiric/+5), zealous/+5. You should probably have all of them available depending on what you need to do.
Dark Paladin X
A green Zealous Dagger of Perfect Enchanting with a +5 energy, +15% damage while enchanted, or +15% damage with -5 energy mod would be a sheer dream for me.
Coloneh
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Originally Posted by Saphatorael
Mekkakat
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
what about it? proves me right. extra 3-4 damage is not worth limiting your combo. id rather get off more attack skills.
unless you have a dagger combo thats ten miles long, +5 wont do jack.
even a double black combo is better off 15^50 zealous +30 with ATTUNES and not +5 energy. sacrificing that so-called minimal damage, might be what cost you a round in TA after all that armor ignoring damage is migitated. imho, if you have more than 5 dagger attack skills, you flat out have no clue how to play a sin, and even 5 is pushing it. its that exact scenario, the lack of utility and self-support in sins, that gives us a bad rep. its like the "selfish warrior" people tell you to stay away from. there's no i in team, and theres no auto win with 6 attack skills either.
moriz
much better question would be: why are you even bothering with energy? given the power of the SP sin, you'll be gaining most of your energy back on the first hit (black lotus strike). if you are not running a SP... then why aren't you? it's the best combo available. and why are you bothering with 15^50? just go with 15 while in a stance.
keep in mind that the above comment is for organized pvp (gvg, ha, ta). SP sins don't work too well in pve.
Kiba of hidden leaf
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Originally Posted by moriz
much better question would be: why are you even bothering with energy? given the power of the SP sin, you'll be gaining most of your energy back on the first hit (black lotus strike). if you are not running a SP... then why aren't you? it's the best combo available. and why are you bothering with 15^50? just go with 15 while in a stance.
keep in mind that the above comment is for organized pvp (gvg, ha, ta). SP sins don't work too well in pve. Correction. It's the most used combo. Other combos including Moebius - Death Blossom make much better use of the 15 ^ 50 than a spike build. The mod becomes more affective the higher your auto-attack damage is and the more frequent you are hitting. Symbol
When will people learn that +energy is not energy management.
If you need +5e just to combo, your build is bad and you should feel bad. +5e daggers should be a swap, not your primary set.
Abedeus
Or that combo is energy-extensive and REQUIRES higher energy, to minimize time between each combo. Saying to an ele ,,why you use + energy on staff, if you can't live without energy even with ES, you suck!'' or to monk ,,+12 offhand? get a shield, you won't need that much energy if you know how to use skills!'' is a stupid thing. You MUST be prepared that, for example with SP sin someone will remove your hex before you attack (pre-veiled target, monk with fast reflexes), or you encounter e-denial. Sins are as complex as mesmers, and they must be prepared for almost anything.
And yes, I use +5 ene daggers. +4 dmg each attack is worth nothing. Oh, and one thing. I use my combo, 30 energy went to hell, I got 15 energy back from combo... And I want ~10-13 seconds for my energy to regen? No. I will use +5 ene daggers and wait only 5-7 seconds. Almost twice as much combos, no? Yes, you can use math against me. I don't care. 15^50, 15^ench and other damage mods should be used on high-damage weapon like hammer or scythe or medium-damage, like sword, axe or spear.
Saphatorael
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
what about it? proves me right. extra 3-4 damage is not worth limiting your combo. id rather get off more attack skills.
Yes, I have tested things by myself (and it's more accurate than the OP), but I have stated in that very post, that it IS a matter of preference, and I explained why I myself use 15^50 standardly, and the +5e set in emergencies (most obvious example would be if I'm DP'ed).
Your opinion isn't truth; if you've read the entire thread, you've seen that multiple people (even Ensign) have arguments against your bold statement. +5e has its uses, but a lot of people still swear by +damage inscriptions, for the results I have calculated (and likely even other reasons). So, as a recap: my calculations are NOT meant to prove anything for either side. You can use them as a comparison, then pick your favorite inscription. I picked the other side (compared to you), but I have stated why I have this preference. You did not, and just shouted that I somehow claimed that +5e is the best mod. If you fail to understand this, go read the post again. And again. And again. Have you still not understood GW's premise? There is no best gear/skillset. You adapt. This can be in playing style, positioning, timing, gear, etc. I prefer adapting. Come back and post something useful, after you've learned to argument properly, and bring up actual facts/calculations as to why +5e would be better than anything else.
ValaOfTheFens
I don't understand the point of this thread. The initial experiment doesn't prove much because the OP only put points in Dagger Mastery. *shrug* What kind of Assassin doesn't put any AP into Critical Strikes?
There's no way to prove one is better than the other. If PvE was the same in every area then you could conduct a test like this and the results would be reliable. However, given the wide variety of PvE experiences this experiment doesn't provide any relevent data.
Yanman.be
Vala, he tried to make an objective experiment but failed. So yeah...you're both wrong in that PoV.
Dark Paladin X
i actually prefer a perm +15% mod with armor or energy penalty or +5 energy mod rather than +15%^50 or any conditional additional damage mods.
fireflyry
The only seemingly apparent goal of this thread I can see was a dude trying to show off his golds.
Woopee. +5e ain't squat and sins already get some of the best e-management of any profession.Add Zealous + Critical Strikes + Critical Agility and who cares about +5e? I don't care if the damage from 15^50 is insignificant as I've NEVER needed +5e in all the time I've played sin.....ever. Still I agree with all the comments regarding such a comparison being futile. Deadly Eyezz
I don't have energy probloms with my Assassin.
Why should i lose the 4 damage.
Shuuda
I prefer to use +5 energy and 20% from customisation, therefore I can run Suvivor instead of crummy radiant.
Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
-I have lots more health -I have a good energy pool -I get a small +on my damage Works well as far as I care. But being the great guy I am, I always carry a pair of 15^50. Quote: i run 16 dagger
/laugh /giggle /snicker
Anyway, yes this thread fails, since most assassins will carry multipule sets (with 15^50 and +5 in the mix) and there are more important comparisons, like why Suvivor is a million times better than raidiant, or why you should run 14 dagger mastery, and not 16.
Bowstring Badass
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Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz
I don't have energy probloms with my Assassin.
Why should i lose the 4 damage. ... Nice thread necromancy. Let this thing die already tired of looking at it. But shuuda I will agree with you I carry a pair of +5 slashing and 15^50 slashing and piercing (yes I know its stupid but shields up = annoying). X Cytherea X
well i prefer to sacrifice health for more killing ability while some do the opposite, that makes them weaker sins in my eyes
Shuuda
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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X
well i prefer to sacrifice health for more killing ability while some do the opposite, that makes them weaker sins in my eyes
The 2 attribute points barely makes a difference, not compared to the extra surviveability Minor att runes and survivor insigina give, running a major is ok, but the 1 attrubute is even less worth it.
moko
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Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass
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Shields up doesn't do anything to daggers.
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well i prefer to sacrifice health for more killing ability while some do the opposite, that makes them weaker sins in my eyes
dead sins are good at damage, yes.
makosi
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Originally Posted by Mokone
Shields up doesn't do anything to daggers.
It does if they're Piercing damage daggers as opposed to Slashing damage.
~ 15^50 all the way for me. +5 Energy is only handy under extreme DP where you need the energy to pull off a combo. Otherwise your build should be energy efficient, Critical Strikes should be high enough and switching off and on Zealous daggers can be handy for energy.
moko
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Originally Posted by makosi
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The armor bonus actually applies versus all projectiles, not versus piercing damage.
orly, is that so? it doesn't do anything vs assassins, go try it, it's also on wiki.
makosi
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Originally Posted by Mokone
orly, is that so? it doesn't do anything vs assassins, go try it, it's also on wiki.
Oh well, it's a functionality error.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Fireflyry
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I prefer to use +5 energy and 20% from customisation, therefore I can run Suvivor instead of crummy radiant.
I must agree with Shuuda's viewpoint here. here were loads of times when I seriously considered Radiant, and if the +15% dmg only applies to base damage (as opposed to also boosting bonus damage) I can certainly see the validity of running the energy weapons. +5nrg is a LOT. Radiant gives +5 on, let's say, chest AND legs, the viable alternatives are +25HP or (conditional, but easy) +15Armour on those locations, both very attractive indeed.
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
orly, is that so? it doesn't do anything vs assassins, go try it, it's also on wiki.
It is suppose to. Guess I need to study more then o.O
Yanman.be
Bobby2, why is +5 alot, if a sin with zealous daggers gets 80% of that in 1 critical hit?
Bobby2
Well, I run 13 CS and 14 DM. My chain atm is LMS-WS-DB/HotO-Moebius so there are few hits (chances for critical) before the 'meat' of the chain. I guess it just feels nice to have the reserve. If it means sacrificing, oh, 4 points of damage on the initial chain I think it could be worth it.
EDIT: so you run CS13 on all builds as well. Reassuring. But ask anyone whose Sin has Radiant armour!? I want to keep my Nightstalker.
EDIT: so you run CS13 on all builds as well. Reassuring. But ask anyone whose Sin has Radiant armour!? I want to keep my Nightstalker.
R E Z E R
Imo a +5e inscript isnt important, nor is a 15^50% inscript. You can do just as well with max clean daggers if you have maxxed critical strikes.
So I decided to see how many suits of armor (60 > 80 > 100 > 60 > 60> 80 > 100 > 60 > 60 > 80etc..) In that order I could kill before I could no longer use energy attacks (without allowing my energy to regen while switching targets).
The skills I used where : Jagged Strike > Wild Strike > Death Blossom (I chose these skills as they recharged fast, but ofcourse wild strike with a 4s recharge cant make results perfect. I used full radiant armor fully runed with Attunement runes and had a max energy of 41. 12 in dagger mastery and 12 in critical strikes.
It took 3 lvl 60 armors, 1 lvl 80 armor and 1 lvl 100 armor to get me under 5e. Ofcourse wether I crited or not cannot made the difference. So in PvP or PvE you can theoreticly chain 3 attacks enough times to kill 3 casters, 1 warrior and 1 foe with 100 armor before you need more energy. Ofcourse, the skills opponents use doesnt make this accurate, but not to forget that energy management skills can be used such as : critical Strike, way of the lotus and so on.
In conclusion, the mods / inscriptions on daggers dont terribly matter (Energy-wise and Damage-wise). If you use clean daggers, you can still do alot of dmg and mainly chain your attacks for quite a while. Personnaly I prefer using 15^50 zealous daggers. +2 dmg can make the difference between you killing someone and someone killing you.
So I decided to see how many suits of armor (60 > 80 > 100 > 60 > 60> 80 > 100 > 60 > 60 > 80etc..) In that order I could kill before I could no longer use energy attacks (without allowing my energy to regen while switching targets).
The skills I used where : Jagged Strike > Wild Strike > Death Blossom (I chose these skills as they recharged fast, but ofcourse wild strike with a 4s recharge cant make results perfect. I used full radiant armor fully runed with Attunement runes and had a max energy of 41. 12 in dagger mastery and 12 in critical strikes.
It took 3 lvl 60 armors, 1 lvl 80 armor and 1 lvl 100 armor to get me under 5e. Ofcourse wether I crited or not cannot made the difference. So in PvP or PvE you can theoreticly chain 3 attacks enough times to kill 3 casters, 1 warrior and 1 foe with 100 armor before you need more energy. Ofcourse, the skills opponents use doesnt make this accurate, but not to forget that energy management skills can be used such as : critical Strike, way of the lotus and so on.
In conclusion, the mods / inscriptions on daggers dont terribly matter (Energy-wise and Damage-wise). If you use clean daggers, you can still do alot of dmg and mainly chain your attacks for quite a while. Personnaly I prefer using 15^50 zealous daggers. +2 dmg can make the difference between you killing someone and someone killing you.
terminus123
ATM I'm still deciding to use my 15^50, zealous daggers or my +5 energy, 20/20 sundering daggers, do they like to the same amount of damage?
Coloneh
no, sundering sucks. go zealous for daggers.
BlackSephir
Yep, daggers aren't exactly like scythes. If you want dmg then I suggest swapping to vampiric wjile attacking... And zealous for general.
"I haz 20% ap on my 7-17 weaponz" ;o
"I haz 20% ap on my 7-17 weaponz" ;o
Coloneh
sunder always sucks. the only remotely viable use for sundering is axe or scythe spikes in PvP.
Bobby2
Drifting again; the 2 issues that are on my mind (I'm an egotist. No choice but to live with it.):
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+5 energy can be a great boon, ask any Sin player who will wear Radiant armor or bother with Attunement runes.
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It means foregoing the conditional (!) +15% damage. Does this percentage add to bonus damage as well as base damage, and if not, what's to lose?
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