So, I run my Monk in PvE with minor runes only. I find that the extra health is cuddly in certain circumstances, and I have yet to find any problems with my healing/protting as a direct result of running with Minor Runes.
However...one of my friends decided he wanted to have a miniature flame war about this, that I always run minors in PvE and I should be using a Sup etc etc bla bla.
Anyway, we settled the argument by agreeing to disagree, but I have decided to take a general consensus amongst other PvE monks about whether they run with Sups or not.
This isn't for flaming or arguing please, just stick to saying which you prefer and why you prefer it. Always good to get some outside output.
[PvE Debate] Sup Runs vs Health
MrSlayer
Arkantos
I'd really say it's a matter of preference. I've always ran a sup on my monk and I've never had any problems that a minor run would of fixed.
Stormlord Alex
Minors, on everything 'cept bonder and farmer.
Don't really need the extra few health on LoD or what have you; Protection Prayers are strong even with lower specs; nah, I'd rather sit on ~600hp and Monk knowing the AI will totally ignore me, and instead go for the tarded Ele who thinks Sup Energy is haXx.
Don't really need the extra few health on LoD or what have you; Protection Prayers are strong even with lower specs; nah, I'd rather sit on ~600hp and Monk knowing the AI will totally ignore me, and instead go for the tarded Ele who thinks Sup Energy is haXx.
olly123
not only do the AI ignore higher hp'ed party members witch makes it a strong point no to take sups you also only heal for a small amount
[skill]Words of comfort[/skill]
normal heal: 51(at 12 att) 60 (at 15 att)
conditional: 39 (at 12 att) 45 (at 15 att)
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill]
ignorance of damage 67 (at 12 att) 80 (at 15 att)
is it really worth losing 75 hp to heal for 15 damage or ignore 13 more? really if you are being hit for over 60 dam you should be using [skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill]
so personally i find using sups is a huge was of A health and B money
[skill]Words of comfort[/skill]
normal heal: 51(at 12 att) 60 (at 15 att)
conditional: 39 (at 12 att) 45 (at 15 att)
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill]
ignorance of damage 67 (at 12 att) 80 (at 15 att)
is it really worth losing 75 hp to heal for 15 damage or ignore 13 more? really if you are being hit for over 60 dam you should be using [skill]Spirit Bond[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill]
so personally i find using sups is a huge was of A health and B money
Sab
If you're PvEing, you don't need to choose, just bring both. Get a Sup headpiece and a Minor headpiece and swap as necessary. It really doesn't matter though. Success on a mission doesn't rely on you running Sups or Minors, they both work (you can Monk without runes if you want).
MrSlayer
It's good to see I'm not alone in my use of minors. As olly123 attempted to point out (although mis-spelt slightly) you do only heal for a small amount less than with a sup rune.
My monk has 600hp most of the time, with a 570set for switching to if I need enchant bonuses.
As for the sup/minor take both thing, no can do.
I am currently using 1 storage box, my body and another 1/5 of a storage box for 15k armors, with a farming set, some bonus armor (crown, glacial gloves, specs etc) in storage. I have a +4 Smite and +4 Divine Head Piece for farming purposes, and then a +2 Heal and +2 Prot set for regular use. I think I also have a +2 Divine somewhere incase I feel like running Blessed Light. As you can see, I don't really want to clutter my storage any more. Give my other lesser-beings some consideration. They do need SOME storage room
Yes my Monk is my main.
Yes she probably has way to much stuff.
So sue me
Anyway, keep the opinions going
My monk has 600hp most of the time, with a 570set for switching to if I need enchant bonuses.
As for the sup/minor take both thing, no can do.
I am currently using 1 storage box, my body and another 1/5 of a storage box for 15k armors, with a farming set, some bonus armor (crown, glacial gloves, specs etc) in storage. I have a +4 Smite and +4 Divine Head Piece for farming purposes, and then a +2 Heal and +2 Prot set for regular use. I think I also have a +2 Divine somewhere incase I feel like running Blessed Light. As you can see, I don't really want to clutter my storage any more. Give my other lesser-beings some consideration. They do need SOME storage room
Yes my Monk is my main.
Yes she probably has way to much stuff.
So sue me
Anyway, keep the opinions going
moko
my hero monks do not have any runes at all.
i think that says enough. :P
(if you can't figure it out; adding a minor will only make it better, sup are overkill -- i used to run sups and when i switched to minors i noticed how much easier it was..so...)
however, Sab has a point. you can always head-swap. comes in handy and bonders etc, although you don't even have to swap back on bonders because you should be out of range anyways.
i think that says enough. :P
(if you can't figure it out; adding a minor will only make it better, sup are overkill -- i used to run sups and when i switched to minors i noticed how much easier it was..so...)
however, Sab has a point. you can always head-swap. comes in handy and bonders etc, although you don't even have to swap back on bonders because you should be out of range anyways.
Ensign
The amount a superior healing rune will help you is inversely proportional to how good you are at using your prot. If you're good with your prot, superior runes are entirely worthless. If you're shit, superior healing might be needed to keep red bars up in a protless environment.
Faer
I Monk naked.
Truth be told, I run superiors in PvE, but that's only because I use them for farming and I am too much of a cheapass to buy anything else. Minors are definitely the way to go.
Truth be told, I run superiors in PvE, but that's only because I use them for farming and I am too much of a cheapass to buy anything else. Minors are definitely the way to go.
Age
I use minors when not farming however I could alway pull one out.
drupal
Minors all the way, altough I think it doesn't matter in PvE.
IMHO the health loss doesn't stand in relation with the small added heal.
IMHO the health loss doesn't stand in relation with the small added heal.
cellardweller
I gave up pve monking when they gave us heroes, but I always run superiors on them. With proper use of the terain, you can go through practically the whole game with your monks taking nothing more than an occasional wanding. Having superiors has the extra advantage of making the ai try to target the squishies, making it easier to round them up into sympathetic visage/splinter/spiteful/whatever deathballs.
roger pedrosa
i run sup in farming but i use alot of minors for pve........ but hey if u could keep other alive and you do a good job doing it than my hats off to you kid....
Div
I went through all of tyria and cantha on superiors. After learning how to play the game (by the time nightfall came around), I've played the rest on minors. Anyone who tells you that you're gimped because you're running minors is just silly. With smart PSing, the amount of red-barring you'll have to do is minimal, and a 14 attribute heal would easily cover it.
I just like the idea of having 580-640 health in PvE/FA. Makes those wammos mad when they ping their health under endure pain and still have less than me :O
I just like the idea of having 580-640 health in PvE/FA. Makes those wammos mad when they ping their health under endure pain and still have less than me :O
Cebe
Personally I use Superiors because it really does bug me if I can't get 16 in an attribute. Just a pet-hate I guess. It's the same across most classes. I dunno...just seems wrong...I guess that's just a personal reason. Clearly though, it means I must suck at the game since I prefer a superior rune over a minor, or major one though eh, Ensign? Generalisations ftw?
I think not.
Most of my heroes tend to be given minors or majors because if there is one thing a hero is not good at, it's positioning him/herself...so the extra health is useful in these situations, but for a human player who knows how to position himself, knows how to kite, to move out of AoE and generally defend himself? What use is extra health anyway, as everyone keeps reminding everyone else, PvE is just C+Space world.
I think not.
Most of my heroes tend to be given minors or majors because if there is one thing a hero is not good at, it's positioning him/herself...so the extra health is useful in these situations, but for a human player who knows how to position himself, knows how to kite, to move out of AoE and generally defend himself? What use is extra health anyway, as everyone keeps reminding everyone else, PvE is just C+Space world.
Omniclasm
I always use a Sup rune. I don't mind if I get targeted. 20+ seconds of 10 regen and 115 armor lets me sit pretty comfortably.
Faer
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
I just like the idea of having 580-640 health in PvE/FA. Makes those wammos mad when they ping their health under endure pain and still have less than me :O
Needz moar 1 Vitae ruen.
Toutatis
Really, the choice is whatever works best for you. It's PvE, so you can make pretty much anything work.
My monk uses one superior rune, as he's a smiting monk and that attribute is a case of "all or nothing" in my opinion. The rest of his armor has a minor divine favor, a minor healing, a vigor and a vitae to give him some extra survivability and power up his self-heal.
My monk uses one superior rune, as he's a smiting monk and that attribute is a case of "all or nothing" in my opinion. The rest of his armor has a minor divine favor, a minor healing, a vigor and a vitae to give him some extra survivability and power up his self-heal.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Personally I use Superiors because it really does bug me if I can't get 16 in an attribute. Just a pet-hate I guess. I dunno...just seems wrong...I guess that's just a personal reason. Clearly though, it means I must suck at the game since I prefer a superior rune over a minor, or major one though eh, Ensign?
With such stellar reasoning driving your decision making it would be unpossible for you to be bad.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
but for a human player who knows how to position himself, knows how to kite, to move out of AoE and generally defend himself?
Then I suggest you learn how to prot too. That way it doesn't matter if you have 14 or 16, but you gain the advantage of not being the first target the monsters munch on. And given that 99.9%+ of GW monks don't know how to prot, chances are you don't either...
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
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And ok, so I've not played any high-end PvP....which means I automatically suck at being a monk. Since PvE is just so Goddamn easy, it hardly matters though, does it? I don't find myself being targetted by monsters, in normal mode - which is all my monk does, and my team (albeit heroes and hench, which has been well established as being superior on all counts...except Mhenlo) doesn't partywipe when I'm in control of the monk skills.
Perhaps I'll try with a minor rune on a headpiece, as clearly it's not like I can monk any worse than I am doing now, and since it's my monk's turn to play through Eye of the North, it seems like a suitable time to do so.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
With such stellar reasoning driving your decision making it would be impossible for you to be bad.
I corrected the spelling for you.
I had considered giving you the response you clearly wanted to that post, although that would probably have gotten me banned. Based on that, I dediced not to, as a responsible little forum poster should. After all, we wouldn't want to this to turn into another "Glyph of Sacrifice + Res Chant" debate now would we? 
bungusmaximus
In hard mode I would say, as much health as possible, these monsters spike squishies like the best of them, but a lot can be solved by kiting/positioning and w/e more.
fenix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
I corrected the spelling for you.
Reported for misquoting.
So basically, you're saying that...you prefer an extra 2 attribute points over the 75 health? What are you stupid? Why would you intentionally handicap yourself...for no benefit? The difference between 14 and 16 is so minute, it's a joke that you use a sup. Yes, you are bad. That much is clear. The fact that you are unable to comprehend how bad you are, is the part that surprises me.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
I had considered giving you the response you clearly wanted to that post, although that would probably have gotten me banned. Based on that, I dediced not to, as a responsible little forum poster should. After all, we wouldn't want to this to turn into another "Glyph of Sacrifice + Res Chant" debate now would we?
Darkpower Alchemist
It never amazes me to see the flamefest start for the varied preferences of players anymore. The sup rune was the staple for any build a year or so ago, until ANet stopped scalp/helm swapping in PvP. So, now that PvP guys can't change up during a fight, everyone has to be like you and follow the rats through the maze or you're stupid?
Spare me such nonsense! The argument of the extra 75hp is valid, yet in PvE, it's optional since positioning and playing skill rule the day. The AI has gotten a bit smarter, but people haven't become stupid if they were good from the start. Learn to think a little more, and not be a follower. If you have a sup rune setup, and die alot, then change to fit your needs. A major can do just as well as a sup in most cases and not take a 75hp hit. Hell, if you really want to be audacious then use 2 majors and spread the attribute points for more versatility while taking the same sup rune like hp hit. In the end, you're playing YOUR game. The intolerance of people will never cease to amaze me.
Auron of Neon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
The intolerance of people will never cease to amaze me.
Like yours, for example?
bungusmaximus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
Spare me such nonsense! The argument of the extra 75hp is valid, yet in PvE, it's optional since positioning and playing skill rule the day. The AI has gotten a bit smarter, but people haven't become stupid if they were good from the start. Learn to think a little more, and not be a follower. If you have a sup rune setup, and die alot, then change to fit your needs. A major can do just as well as a sup in most cases and not take a 75hp hit. Hell, if you really want to be audacious then use 2 majors and spread the attribute points for more versatility while taking the same sup rune like hp hit. In the end, you're playing YOUR game. The intolerance of people will never cease to amaze me. Good point, because I think both Ensign and Beaver are far from bad. Personal preference matters a lot, My own builds tend to be pretty unorthodox at times too, but if it gets the job done smoothly there is no problem. People will sure as hell laugh when they see my prepared shot/tigers fury ranger heroes, yet still they PWN ^^.
Avarre
There are very few cases when any rune except minor is needed, or even wanted, on a monk. They generally involve pure healing bars, which generally involve bad players.
If you're playing effectively, it's simply an extra penalty to your health with a negligible benefit. Turbobusa
What if people were wrong in the past? Ho and I don't even know if we can compare, since skills were updated, some new introduced, the context has changed.
Right now, 75hp is not worth the 2 attributes. Even 35 hp isn't. It maybe is to reach some break point, but the extra 1sec enchant or 5hp heal isn't going to save you. 35/75hp may give your monk more time to react. Darkpower Alchemist, there is no need to be against everything the majority of player says.
Dr Strangelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
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Quote: Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
In the end, you're playing YOUR game.
You can play with triple suped flare spammers for all I care. Personal preference has nothing to do with what's actually better.
moko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
Spare me such nonsense! The argument of the extra 75hp is valid, yet in PvE, it's optional since positioning and playing skill rule the day. The AI has gotten a bit smarter, but people haven't become stupid if they were good from the start. Learn to think a little more, and not be a follower. If you have a sup rune setup, and die alot, then change to fit your needs. A major can do just as well as a sup in most cases and not take a 75hp hit. Hell, if you really want to be audacious then use 2 majors and spread the attribute points for more versatility while taking the same sup rune like hp hit. In the end, you're playing YOUR game. The intolerance of people will never cease to amaze me.
and hey, if people play their own game, why are we even on this board? aren't we all influencing our OWN opinion into YOUR gameplay?
Quote:
If you haven't even done HM on a monk, your comments should be given much less weight. It's like someone who only RA/FA joining in on a high-end GvG builds debate. Sure, they can give their own opinion, but their opinion is more likely to be less experienced or sometimes plain wrong.|
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
<snip
lol. :]
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
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Quote: Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist It never amazes me to see the flamefest start for the varied preferences of players anymore. The sup rune was the staple for any build a year or so ago, until ANet stopped scalp/helm swapping in PvP. So, now that PvP guys can't change up during a fight, everyone has to be like you and follow the rats through the maze or you're stupid?
Spare me such nonsense! The argument of the extra 75hp is valid, yet in PvE, it's optional since positioning and playing skill rule the day. The AI has gotten a bit smarter, but people haven't become stupid if they were good from the start. Learn to think a little more, and not be a follower. If you have a sup rune setup, and die alot, then change to fit your needs. A major can do just as well as a sup in most cases and not take a 75hp hit. Hell, if you really want to be audacious then use 2 majors and spread the attribute points for more versatility while taking the same sup rune like hp hit. In the end, you're playing YOUR game. The intolerance of people will never cease to amaze me. Kinda like when everyone said your RE build was trash, but you keep arguing back and turning it to a flamefest?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.
Oh snap! I never learn
Lord Zado
I run a Sup Healing rune on Heal/Prot bars. If I'm full prot or *shudder* full heal, I use minors. Really doesn't make much of a difference. I run all survivor runes, and a sword + shield for +60 health, so even with the Sup rune, I'm never the party member with the least health. I'm rarely, if ever, targeted by the enemy.
The extra 10 health from LoD is nice with all the AoE attacks going around these days. Since I get attacked just as often with or without a Sup rune, makes sense to just use the Sup rune. Desert Rose
The extra-hitpoints when using only a minor rune not also allows you to live a second longer, but prevents that the monk dont get the aggro right in the beginning of a fight.
Monsters attack players with the lowest HP / AL first, so the monk wouldn't be one of the first targets.
boarderx
ive always ran Sups on my headgear in PVE in PVE it is easier to hide from the AI where in PVP they hunt you dwn. I can see the advanatge of minor runes but each has their own style
Darkpower Alchemist
hehe, it never ceases to amaze how people focus on the small statement I make, but never on the big picture of the argument in question.
The RE topic is dead, leave it so. The reasoning I put out was not accepted as being playable by you same set of forum trollers, so no need to revisit it. This is a new topic, and as such is the case, let's try to keep on that topic. I never disagreed with the point of the 75hp loss as being not as needed. I just said it's a matter of opinion beyond PvP. In PvP, more Hp is more necessity than preference as for the already mentioned reasons. You guys really need a hug sometimes. Let the past go. As for Holymasamune, idiots are destined to repeat the same mistakes. Take less personal shots and maybe you won't be one at some point. I believe in you...
Melody Cross
Depends on the team build. With a human frontline that will take agro and keep it, a superior is nice for extra healing. Not necessary, nice. H/H, its nearly impossible to get that done, however. I know I'm going to be taking hits, so I run all minors to increase my HP.
In a good team, sup runes are not a handicap; they are a boon. I mean, if we weren't at least a little concerned with boosting our att points, why not just run all vitae runes and a sup vigor with survivors insignia  If 600 HP is all we worry about, wouldn't 670 be even more ftw?Monking is all about efficiency, and I like my healing to be efficient toward the damage received party wide. If I don't expect much damage, I run a sup headpiece and fewer self heals. If I do, I run minors. Not that either is set in stone. PvE toons can still armorswap in instanced areas. Be nice to each other GGs
Thom Bangalter
there's absolutely no debate: if you run anything other than minors, you're terrible.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
As for Holymasamune, idiots are destined to repeat the same mistakes. Take less personal shots and maybe you won't be one at some point. I believe in you...
Repeating the same mistakes...kinda like not listening to everyone else in the forum while maintaining the wrong stance on a subject? But yeah, I have no need to take cheap shots at PvE'rs. You guys don't concern me much.
superDum
Please pardon my noobish-ness. From what I can see, the most highly rated PVE general monk builds on PVX wiki all include at least a major or superior rune, making it easy to assume that these builds are better.
Based on the majority of opinions found here however, I am going to try an all minor runes build. It should not hurt to add a new trick to the bag, right? Thanks for sharing your opinions. |
