Now that Anet has decided that Charr are evil, were evil, and always will be evil...
how will they be received as a Playable race?
I'm going to bring up Orcs in WoW, not to try and start a flame war, but to illustrate a point. Orcs work in WoW for many reasons: The whole Alliance / Horde PvP side, the fact that players have been playing Orcs since the Original Warcraft, and that they are not "evil" any more than humans are "evil"... there are evil orcs and good orcs. Evil humans and good humans.
But there are no "good" Charr. Pyre is not good. He will do whatever it takes to kill the Shaman, even ally with the Humans he hates.
Then, to make matters worse, to anyone who's played Guild Wars, the Charr will be the enemy. No ifs, ands or buts. So, there will be the old-timers who are sitting around Divine's Ascent, pissed that Ascalon is in the middle of Charr territory, and a bunch of newbies making up Charr thinking they look "cool." With no idea of their background. (I suppose there will be a few old-timers playing the "other side", but at least they know what they're getting into.)
Yes, this is just a game. And perhaps I'm blowing this out of proportion. But unlike the Norn, Asura or Sylvari, I just don't see how the Charr will fit in. You might as well make the Undead a playable race (well, maybe Anet will), or the Destroyers for that matter. After all, the Charr are monsters, no matter what kind of gloss you cover them with... they are savages, and admit it, and relish in it.
Will Charr be suitable for Players?
Mordakai
Bryant Again
Wait and see. But to add some fuel to the speculation, they could probably make a sect of renegade Charr who believe in like goodness and stuff..
Vahn Roi
"Good" and "Evil" are relative.
drago34
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Originally Posted by Vahn Roi
"Good" and "Evil" are relative.
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I was going to say that or at least something VERY similar lol.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Vahn Roi
"Good" and "Evil" are relative.
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Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in.
drago34
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Ahh, yes, it's all relative, right? It's OK to bring down a meteor on a civilian city...
Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in. |
Exoudeous
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Ahh, yes, it's all relative, right? It's OK to bring down a meteor on a civilian city...
Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in. |
As for char, well who knows, in the hundreds of years between games they might have to ally to a side because of the new threat in Tyria. If you look at GW:EN they wernt even attacked by the great destroyers yet, they are still in their own civil wars right now
Mr. G
Well it would be a good way to sort people out
All the mature players will play a selection of races to absorb the plot and storyline and enjoy a richer experiance
all the 13 yr olds will play the charr "2 nUkZ da Innocent peoplez lolololololol"
...
eh perhaps my views are outdated, But ive found that 90% of the "XX Evil dude XX" speak in a pitch that only most dogs can understand
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but mini-rant aside, I hope there arnt any Little white/black hats put on anyone
All the mature players will play a selection of races to absorb the plot and storyline and enjoy a richer experiance
all the 13 yr olds will play the charr "2 nUkZ da Innocent peoplez lolololololol"
...
eh perhaps my views are outdated, But ive found that 90% of the "XX Evil dude XX" speak in a pitch that only most dogs can understand
------------
but mini-rant aside, I hope there arnt any Little white/black hats put on anyone
Bankai
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Ahh, yes, it's all relative, right? It's OK to bring down a meteor on a civilian city...
Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in. |
I know I'm going to make a charr character in GW2.
Toutatis
I don't think that the Charr are inherently evil. True, Pyre does say that "some Charr are more evil than others" but in context, I think he was using those terms to help Gwen understand the point he was trying to make. Gwen had already made up in her mind that all Charr were evil, and as Pyre couldn't possibly say anything to force Gwen to see otherwise he spoke to her in terms that she would be able to understand; but this does not mean that the Charr are truly evil.
So maybe the Charr have laid waste to Ascalon. Ascalon probably would have done the same if the roles were reversed. And take the example of the Mursaat and the White Mantle - they killed innocent civilians, but did that to prevent the Titans from escaping and wreaking an even greater destruction on the world. Sometimes it's necessary to be a part of one evil to prevent the advent of a greater evil.
Also, we still know virtually nothing about Charr society. Who are we to judge something we know so little about?
So maybe the Charr have laid waste to Ascalon. Ascalon probably would have done the same if the roles were reversed. And take the example of the Mursaat and the White Mantle - they killed innocent civilians, but did that to prevent the Titans from escaping and wreaking an even greater destruction on the world. Sometimes it's necessary to be a part of one evil to prevent the advent of a greater evil.
Also, we still know virtually nothing about Charr society. Who are we to judge something we know so little about?
EternalTempest
Charr seem to be tribal / nomadic vs Tyria which is like a city state / kingdom.
Historically any of those types of cultures near each other = war / conflict.
And the "warring" char was the shaman class worshiping the titans (and latter destroyers) and the whole revolt - there will be a new form of gov.
Historically any of those types of cultures near each other = war / conflict.
And the "warring" char was the shaman class worshiping the titans (and latter destroyers) and the whole revolt - there will be a new form of gov.
prism2525
I take it that every race will have it's own starting point. Yes, reminds me of WoW, but how can Humans live with Asura who think they're gods of intelligence and savage Charr? (For that matter how can Asura live with Charr who I bet would just love to taste one).
Norn seem ok with the humans but their love for a good brawl makes them unfit to live in Ascalon for instance. Sylvari may get along with humans but that's just one race of a confirmed 5. And we don't know if Anet pops out with a couple more races.
That is just from the human point of view but you really have to consider the other races. The Charr would try to eat any race (except the Norn I guess), The Asura -if there are any more Gadd-like ones- won't be that pleasant to share your neighbourhood with, Norn would just brawl like hell, and the Sylvari will just make flower arrangements.
As you can see, it's clearly impossible to have all races start in one spot. Good/evil issues are another thing though, Charr seem like the only "evil" race so far. Could Anet add some mad, bloodthirsty centaurs to keep them company?
Norn seem ok with the humans but their love for a good brawl makes them unfit to live in Ascalon for instance. Sylvari may get along with humans but that's just one race of a confirmed 5. And we don't know if Anet pops out with a couple more races.
That is just from the human point of view but you really have to consider the other races. The Charr would try to eat any race (except the Norn I guess), The Asura -if there are any more Gadd-like ones- won't be that pleasant to share your neighbourhood with, Norn would just brawl like hell, and the Sylvari will just make flower arrangements.
As you can see, it's clearly impossible to have all races start in one spot. Good/evil issues are another thing though, Charr seem like the only "evil" race so far. Could Anet add some mad, bloodthirsty centaurs to keep them company?
Imori Akari
Yeah..for the record..I'm not brand new to this game..played for a year now and very happy with it...and I'm going to play Charr. And I'm not into evil stuff, I just get into the whole "Tribe" thing. Its cool to me.
And to Mr. G: If I see someone talking in 1337 or whatever the hell that is, I'll smite them =P I hate it to
Zomg did u s33 dat!?!?! lolololol omg wtf bbq roflcopter!
(I dont understand why they put bbq and roflcopter. anyone care to elaborate on this noob speak?)
EDIT: Prism, you mention Centaurs... I think thats an amazing idea! I would love to play as a centaur!
And to Mr. G: If I see someone talking in 1337 or whatever the hell that is, I'll smite them =P I hate it to
Zomg did u s33 dat!?!?! lolololol omg wtf bbq roflcopter!
(I dont understand why they put bbq and roflcopter. anyone care to elaborate on this noob speak?)
EDIT: Prism, you mention Centaurs... I think thats an amazing idea! I would love to play as a centaur!
Buruko
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Ahh, yes, it's all relative, right? It's OK to bring down a meteor on a civilian city...
Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in. |
Is bringing down a meteor on civilian city evil? Sure, in that context and statement it is. Now let's add more context: The city contains civilians of a group you are at war with, it also house enemy troops that are willing to kill you and all of your kind. Is it so evil now?
I fail to see a world that is so black and white, the ultimate clear cut. It's all a big ball of gray. And the Charr fall into that category... I highly doubt the whole Charr race agrees on the same thing, much like ourselves they probably don't all agree on much at all. The story even weaves a civil war within the Charr nations who's to say what motivation and conflicts spawn from those events?
So 'good' Charr are a possibility, but their motivations will be their own and those motivations may not be tied with descendants of Ascalon or they may be forced into an Alliance for many other reasons and somewhat common goals. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is a good proverb here.
Bringer Of Fury
Im not sure why everyone assumes the charr are evil, we have only seen them from the humans point of view.
From what i gathered in EOTN the charr seems to be no more evil than the Norn.
Tribesmen that put value in honor and fighting skills, they see humans as we (the players) see trolls or hekket.
We don't consider ourselves evil even tho we slay thousands of creatures to reach our goals.
And don't start telling me that slaying trolls or hekket prevents nightfall or the titans from taking over the world. They just happen to be in the way.
Personally i think i will be playing either a charr or a norn, and until i see more actual lore showing the evil ways of the charr i won't consider them the "bad" guys.
But from a role playing point of view, if you play human, they are THE bad guys
From what i gathered in EOTN the charr seems to be no more evil than the Norn.
Tribesmen that put value in honor and fighting skills, they see humans as we (the players) see trolls or hekket.
We don't consider ourselves evil even tho we slay thousands of creatures to reach our goals.
And don't start telling me that slaying trolls or hekket prevents nightfall or the titans from taking over the world. They just happen to be in the way.
Personally i think i will be playing either a charr or a norn, and until i see more actual lore showing the evil ways of the charr i won't consider them the "bad" guys.
But from a role playing point of view, if you play human, they are THE bad guys
Taki
Willing to wager that not many people give a foot about lore, back-story or w/e and will play whatever looks the best to them or provides the most fun. Story-telling and immersion were not GW's strong points.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Bringer Of Fury
Im not sure why everyone assumes the charr are evil, we have only seen them from the humans point of view.
From what i gathered in EOTN the charr seems to be no more evil than the Norn. Tribesmen that put value in honor and fighting skills, they see humans as we (the players) see trolls or hekket. We don't consider ourselves evil even tho we slay thousands of creatures to reach our goals. And don't start telling me that slaying trolls or hekket prevents nightfall or the titans from taking over the world. They just happen to be in the way. Personally i think i will be playing either a charr or a norn, and until i see more actual lore showing the evil ways of the charr i won't consider them the "bad" guys. But from a role playing point of view, if you play human, they are THE bad guys |
But it's not like I can turn off my aggro circle... 
About Moral ambiguity...
I do believe some things are ambiguous. The debate of dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima is still pretty thorny. So, believe me, I understand it's not all black and white - in the real world.
But (and this should prove to be an interesting discussion), my point was about a Fantasy race that has been portrayed as nothing but savage and bloodthirsty. (and no, I'm not talking about Humans!).
I honestly thought the Charr would be reimagined. Perhaps its better they are not. Perhaps this is a sign that Guild Wars is maturing. I just really wanted to get a conversation going, and see what others thought.
Solas
yeah, Good and Evil are all relative.
Al'Quida Sees:
See's armerica and now some of europe as enemies,bombing them, seeign themselves as martyrs, the good guys, and the west as evil and corrupt
The West Sees:
these rebels killing innocent people,and going on in to stop militants and war on terror, seeing themselves as the good guyts and terrorist as evil.
These are examples and im not saying that i do/not justify deaths caused by these. JIC
also peave may happen in 400 years or new wars waged
Al'Quida Sees:
See's armerica and now some of europe as enemies,bombing them, seeign themselves as martyrs, the good guys, and the west as evil and corrupt
The West Sees:
these rebels killing innocent people,and going on in to stop militants and war on terror, seeing themselves as the good guyts and terrorist as evil.
These are examples and im not saying that i do/not justify deaths caused by these. JIC
also peave may happen in 400 years or new wars waged
Nevin
I have a feeling there will be a good and bad side to every playable race, let me explain. (This is using the theory that Pyre is a good charr, because he wants the shamans to stop lying to his people)
Okay so you decide to create a charr character. La Di Da you customize him and hes off into the world. You are a "good charr" you can only play a "good charr", the good charr are the now present resistance to the shaman that Pyre started in our time. Virtually Charr are at civil war and you're on the side against the shamans, the shamans because NPC baddies that everyone can hate.
Okay so you decide to create a charr character. La Di Da you customize him and hes off into the world. You are a "good charr" you can only play a "good charr", the good charr are the now present resistance to the shaman that Pyre started in our time. Virtually Charr are at civil war and you're on the side against the shamans, the shamans because NPC baddies that everyone can hate.
Shiishii Momo
I think it's foolish to try to peg it down to a good vs. evil decision. It would be no harder than when we had to make the decision to ally with Kurzick or Luxon battle standards. When you are speaking in terms of the survivability of a race, good and evil most definitely are a matter of perspective and opinion. Besides, I think the humans are the evil ones. All the other things seem to get along together just fine with each other, we are the ones stomping around all the continents killing everything in our path.
Sleeper Service
I'm finding this thread supremely ironic considering the existence of this one:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0197465&page=1
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0197465&page=1
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
I'm finding this thread supremely ironic considering the existence of this one:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0197465&page=1 |
Yes, I don't want to bring those arguments up again, so allow me to clarify my remarks:
I am NOT talking about real world moral ambiguity.
I am talking about a specific race in a fantasy computer game that has been shown with no compassion or regret. I'm not saying that good Charr are not possible, since as an imaginary race, they can have whatever characteristics their creator bestows upon them.
I AM saying, at this point in time, I can find no evidence of any redeeming characteristic of the Charr.
People keep bringing up our Characters as examples of evil. Well, even if they are evil (and I'm not convinced they are portrayed that way), there are at least other representations of "good" Humans in the world of Guild Wars.
So, please, lets leave real world discussions out of this and discuss how Charr are portrayed in the game. And how can they possibly work as a Playable Race?
bamm bamm bamm
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
...and always will be evil...
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Also, you never played an antihero before?
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by bamm bamm bamm
You've read some in-between filler lore, not the GW2 script. Like all the other pointless GW2 threads that are titled with a rhetorical question, there's nothing to go on.
Also, you never played an antihero before? |
Should I wait until GW2 is released before I voice my displeasure at an evil playable race?
bamm bamm bamm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Should I wait until GW2 is released before I voice my displeasure at an evil playable race?
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dont feel no pain
I was thinking about the asura more than the charr lol so small! 
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by bamm bamm bamm
But that's what I'm saying, you don't know that they're going to be evil. You just know they're 'evil' at the start. Surely you smell the 'coming-together-of-hated-races-to-fight-a-greater-threat-and-ultimately-find-redemption' from a mile off? Why would they use that in some filler lore to sell a magazine when they could use it as a device in the game? As I said, you don't actually know if they 'always will be evil'. You haven't read the script.
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I was just sure some hint of their emerging "goodness" would be revealed by now.
Elena
i think were derailing a little bit
lets yust keep focused on the charr here
on other news we killed his daddy
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Vatlaaw_Doomtooth
lets yust keep focused on the charr here
on other news we killed his daddy
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Vatlaaw_Doomtooth
HawkofStorms
Hey, I LOVE playing as the Empire in Star Wars games. Screw you Luke Skywalker!
So when GW2 comes around... yum, humans = squish
So when GW2 comes around... yum, humans = squish
Fitz Rinley
I by no means accept that good and evil are relative as one suggested. However, perspective of individuals is relavent to position between good, evil, and the other six colors of the spectrum. Pyre is not in a sense evil because he does not in fact hate humans - he loves them as food. The Charr represent a carnivorous race of socially advanced predators, in much the same way that Klingons represent a hyper aggressive militant clan based society. (Although I still think Charr look more like cows than cats, and wonder just how many cups the Charr female-armor will support, .)
But who knows - maybe GW2 will actually have more RP! Could be interesting.
But who knows - maybe GW2 will actually have more RP! Could be interesting.
My Sweet Revenga
Unless the Charr in GW2 look anything like this......
....Doubt if I'll ever like charr. I ain't gonna be food for some freakin chewbacca wannabe.....
....Doubt if I'll ever like charr. I ain't gonna be food for some freakin chewbacca wannabe.....
Retribution X
OMG Some charr attacked me in teh woods! Teh are evil!!!111!!!
OMG! Some humans attacked me in teh jungle!!!111!!! Teh Are Evil!!111!!!
Ok. I think my point went across... (I will hate myself, because I hate idiots that type like I just did. :P)
OMG! Some humans attacked me in teh jungle!!!111!!! Teh Are Evil!!111!!!
Ok. I think my point went across... (I will hate myself, because I hate idiots that type like I just did. :P)
Malice Black
This is a game forum, do not bring real world politics here. I've deleted all reference to any real world events. I do not want to see anymore posted.
Theus
I'm getting a real Faction Vs Faction vibe from Guild Wars 2.
Grreat.Grand.Another terrible MMO aspect for GuildWars 2.
Grreat.Grand.Another terrible MMO aspect for GuildWars 2.
Age
It all depends on where your char was born in Ascalon that the greatgrande children of your char will feel.My char were born in Rin so yeah they like the Charr that much.I would point out that the Main City DoomlorShine is human built as it has those heads you see in Ascalon.This where they are sitting around eating in dinning room that is human built as well.I would gather that the real lands of the Charr are much further North.
That part of the storyline didn't make any sense and Drascir is suppose to be up there but yes I know about what said in the Ruins of Surmia mission.Drascir is suppose to be great city according to the lore greater than that of Ascalon more like main city in Vabbi.
That part of the storyline didn't make any sense and Drascir is suppose to be up there but yes I know about what said in the Ruins of Surmia mission.Drascir is suppose to be great city according to the lore greater than that of Ascalon more like main city in Vabbi.
Dark Paladin X
Ok, you shouldn't always assume the Charr are evil. Sure they invaded Ascalon, but under the orders of the Shaman order manipulated by the Titans. After the Titans left them, the Charr Shaman order fell apart and the Ebon Vanguard comes in to take advantage of the Charr civil war. I don't hate the Charr or feel sympathy to them, I just feel neutral and that's all.
IMO, I prefer playing as an elf or a tengu. Tengus kick butt!!
IMO, I prefer playing as an elf or a tengu. Tengus kick butt!!
lyra_song
I dont really see the Charr's values as...."evil" per se.
They place importance in other things, compassion is considered a weakness.
Victory over all, strength and obviously brotherhood is quite important.
Reminds me a bit of the plains indians.....
Having a hated enemy does not make you evil.
I hate cockroaches...im sure all cockroaches find me evil.
They place importance in other things, compassion is considered a weakness.
Victory over all, strength and obviously brotherhood is quite important.
Reminds me a bit of the plains indians.....
Having a hated enemy does not make you evil.
I hate cockroaches...im sure all cockroaches find me evil.
Sleeper Service
dunno about char but i sure hope the Undead are playable.
now they put things into perspective.
thats unless a undead char still counts as char.
now they put things into perspective.
thats unless a undead char still counts as char.
Unkillable Cat
The whole evil idea is a mute point when you consider that only a few decades ago Germany was "Evil" for declaring war on all of its neighbors and trying to anhialate and entire race, America was "Evil" for nuking a few hundred thousand civilians and celebrating it, go back a hundred years and all white people were evil for supressing all other races, the list could be endless if you studied modern history deeply enough. 200 Years is a long time for a nation to change its stripes, look at the war mentioned above, the most "Evil" is now a democratic leader of the European Union, while two of the "Good Guys" from the same conflict are waist deep in civilian deaths in the middle east, thats in a far shorter time frame. Are the UK and USA Evil for the level of civilian deaths in "war of terror"? not by the wests point of view, its called collateral damage (which in defence is inevitable when air superiority is involved) some even view them as heroes, but Im sure that the Iraqi people view it another way.
Im not a disgruntles war protestor Im simply using the above as a contemporary example of how good and evil are more abiguous than most people like to think a "freedom fighter/rebel" is to be celerbrated but one mans rebel is anothers terrorist.
Im not a disgruntles war protestor Im simply using the above as a contemporary example of how good and evil are more abiguous than most people like to think a "freedom fighter/rebel" is to be celerbrated but one mans rebel is anothers terrorist.
jhu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
Ahh, yes, it's all relative, right? It's OK to bring down a meteor on a civilian city...
Sorry. I think is most people's mind, killing innocent civilians is evil, no matter what gods you believe in. |
"good" and "evil" are relative and determined by the winners. viet cong vs. u.s. military. who was good and who was evil?