PETITION: 7 Heros

I am bringing this petition to the forefronts of this thread because I feel extremely adamant about the issue. For various reasons I and many others have found that many players choose to play most of their time with a henchman/hero (h/h) build for the following reasons just to name a few:

1. With 3 stand alone campaigns and 1 expansion the player base is stretched so thin that there are many areas in each campaign that simply lack players to create a sufficient pug.

2. Heros/Henchmen allow you to multi-task IRL in case one needs to use the restroom/laundry/cook/whatever might pull you away from the computer without upsetting the others in the group.

3. In many (not all) pugs you will come across the so called wammo mentality and people running ridiculous builds that simply make no sense. Having heros where one can create the build or using henchman (moderate builds, but no complete noobs) helps to diminish the problem.

However we have all found that many times henchman simply do not cut it when the going gets tough. So for the following reasons I am petitioning for Anet to allow its avid fans to have 7 heros as opposed to the lowly 3 heros that we currently have.

1. Heros allow for player customization of the entire team. Creating a balanced group all running builds designed to synergise with the other builds allows for the user to not only think outside of the box but also to have a better understanding of each class even if that player is primarily one class.

2. Allowing for 7 heros in areas like FoW, UW, DoA, etc. allows the average player to reach otherwise unattainable goals that can not be accomplished in your standard pug and where henchman are simply not allowed.

3. Equiping 7 heros would be relatively expensive task to accomplish, however the reward would hopefully be met as well, thus providing equal risk with equal reward.

4. Having 7 heros allows the player to micro manage for all 7 heros providing more intelligent game play. (precasing protective spirit on the tank)

5. Having 7 heros doesn't discourage human gameplay at all. 1 player micromanaging 7 heros is less likely to be as successful as 2 players micromanaging 3 heros each and 4 human players micromanaging 1 hero each is even more likely to be successful and so on.

6. 7 Heros does not in ANY way unbalance the game. (8 Human players with custom skillbars is attainable already in a guild group and honestly better than 1 human and 7 hero custom skillbars.)

Finally, an addition to all of the aforementioned reasons why I believe that we should have 7 heros available to us is to promote out of the box style gameplay. I have been attempting to form an all paragon group now for about a month and a half. I personally feel that allowing a player to not only bring 7 heros but also 7 heros of any class would be optimal for the advancement of the guild wars community. This could be accomplished simply by allowing recruitable heros of any class at the Temple of Balthazar (or each chapters main outpost; Lions Arch, Kaineng City, Kamadan, and The Eye of the North depending on the class ie paragons and dervish could only be recruitable at Kamadan). This would allow players to not only have fully customizeable skillbars for each teamate in the group but also to try completely out of the box ideas such as an all paragon/warrior/necromancer/ritualist/whatever build. Using the Zaishen to accomplish this goal would provide the additional options to players with minimal changes/work for Anet and its teams.

Petition A:
So if you agree with me that 7 heros should be allowed please simply say /signedA or /agreeA or if you disagree: /notsignedA /disagreeA and give your reasons for agreement and disagreement.

Petition B:
Additionally if you feel that there should be additional recruitable heros to allow for out of the box/non cookie-cutter builds please /signB or /notsignB and as always please give feedback and your reasons for agreeing or disagreeing.

See also: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10201532

Thank you for your time.

/SignedA

/SignedB

Im the OP of course I Sign both for all of the reasons above.

This topic has already gained large amounts of coverage on GWO, http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=463339.
That's 1200+ posts there....

Gaile's comments are also here on GWG: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10199654

No furter opinion on the petition.

I realize that others have posted on the issue and that there have been other forums asking for the same thing... this is part of why i created this petition. Anet seems to care more about when official petitions are made than simply inquiries as to why we don't have say 7 heros already. This is a Petition not an open discussion of why we don't have them already.

/Signed A

/Signed B


I also suggest everyone reads the thread linked before they voice their opinion.
(http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10201532) Incase anyone missed it.

I disagree on all fronts. Guild Wars is meant to be an MMORPG, even though there are many arguments against that fact, and as one it should not be completely reliable on NPCs. Why do you think Henchmen are stupid? So people will want to play with other people, and whether you think so or not, playing with real people/friends is better company then a bunch of animated players that are built to spam their skills.

To allow people to do the whole game without the interaction of people, except in towns and such, defies the meaning of the game. Also, on another note, if you were able design a whole team, you could pretty much go through the whole campaign with ease. This shouldn't happen, its meant to be hard, and it being hard makes it more of an achievement when you finally complete it.

I am not a hardcore PvE'er, but this is my opinion.

EDIT: I just realized I voiced my opinion, but if no one is allowed to disagree in this forums its going to be pretty bias.

I would also additionally like to point out that this would not effect PvP in any way. As there is a limit on both Hero battles and HA (being the only two forms of PvP that allow heros anyway.

yawn.

didn't anet state there is no way they are going to implement it?

heck. Gaile even said the dev's asked her to never bring it to them again.

The point is that the reasons that Anet has given for not allowing 7 heros have all been debunked.

List of argurments:
1. They say "7 heros is overpowerd" - Players > heros they dont nerf a 8 player group.

2. Interface would be cluttered - Its not cluttered now, make 3 standard and 4 heros that you cant choose what skill is used, or better yet let the player make that choice as we dont even have to see the hero skillbars right now if we dont want to.

3. Go play with real people - Many people already play 3hero/4henchman.. whats the difference other than improved player control? Also more importantly, Sometimes there just aren't real people to play with (its hard if not impossible to find a pure pug that can vanquish UW).

If you have any additional valid arguments i would be happy to refute any/all of them.

/signed

It's been done to death. It's right, of course, and at this point Anet knows it's right, but until they give up the Kindergarten teacher "everyone should play nice with everyone else" mentality it's not going to happen. Forced multiplayer with strangers isn't my idea of fun, quit trying to force me to play the game that way. I play with friends when possible, but frequently it's not. My schedule simply doesn't allow for it. I'm not going to PUG just because Anet thinks they're "incentivizing" it by refusing to let me have a good solo party (and all I mean by "good" here is a couple of steps down in quality from a group of competent friends, the "unlabalanced" argument is gibberish). This business of having to push for single player rights in games like this is getting tiresome, when did games become about forcing people to be social?

Vanraith, how do you feel about the second part of my petition?

/so signed - stupid reason by anet for not introducing this feature, oh and if you don't know what they said it was some bullshit about wanting people to socialize, I mean....really......'Mummy says we've got to talk to one another and get along.' Idiotic!

They're not going to do that, and I don't know that it's a huge priority. 25 heroes is a pretty good pool to work from, there are 2 or 3 of every class in there. I'd agree that it'd be even cooler to have more than that, but it's incidental to the (far simpler) request to simply allow a full party of heroes.

So I suppose that, while I'm not opposed to B, I'm not strongly behind it either, hence why I didn't reply on that point.

This is why I hate having multiple threads on the same issue, people seem to refuse to read the other before they make a comment (especially when its 10+ thread like it is in this case).

So ill try and put down the main points here (Although It would be better to go and read the other thread to see all the points and opinions)

Basically this is to allow the casual player who doesnt have enough time to find a pug and do a mission, who has to afk multiple times (Has a young child for example) and doesnt want to inflict that on a pug etc (More in the other thread).

As it stands I have never been in an elite area of the game, I dont have enough time. If I had 7 heroes I could walk away and come back later and carry on.
I havent been in HM for the same reason, I just dont have enough time.

Now while we currently can use h/h they are vastly inferior to a pug. Even with 7 heroes it would be inferior to a pug.

To quote myself from the other thread for ease:


Basically this petition is about letting the casual player, be able to play the game how they want without being punished for not having enough time. The punishment here is that they are forced to go with h/h which extremely weak when compared to a decent pug and isnt even worth comparing to a guild/alliance group!
Having 7 heroes would improve this, would sitll be weaker than a pug however, but would allow the casual player to play all of the game how they want at the same level as a hardcore player.

Thanks for your input. I just believe that it would promote many of the ideas that Anet seems to be attempting to promote (thinking outside of the box/nontraditional builds/individuality and creativity in player and team builds)

/signed on both

A while ago, I had a suggestion that Anet make a hero factory, where a player can create additional heroes using something similar to the character creation process. I think that if you gave everyone 7 free slots per account to use, and a template code for makeing that specific characater again so you can change them on the fly, this would allow people to have non-cookiecutter builds.

This is for the casual player, someone who doesnt have time to join a group. Some people can only play for 30-40 mins at a time. If they have to spend 10 mins forming a group that can mean they dont have enough time to do the whole mission. This is obviousely made even worse when you consider how long elite areas and dungeons can take.

Also how does a team of 7 heroes and 1 player running custom builds suddenly become more powerful than 8 players running custom builds?

You seem to forget that players can do everything and more than heroes can. A group of 7 heroes will never be more powerful than a decent team of players.


Also no one said you cant voice your opinion if you dont agree.
All I suggested was you read the other thread first. Since that contains all these arguments and I wouldnt have had to post them here for you

Please note that thread has views from people on both sides and has brought up some good discussion so its deffinately worth reading.

QFT. Besides, there are some areas in HM where I don't want henchmen because most of them have bad bars.

I totally agree here... also has anyone ever successfully vanquished an area in HM in a Pug... a true Pug? I would say that its extremely difficult for the average player to complete.

I'd rather have the ability to have 1 or 2 of my own characters as support instead of 3 heroes or 7 henchmen.

Thats another great idea.... Allow players to use their own charactors to help each other out as recruitable/or something similar heros.

Use two real players and six heroes, rather than creating petitions that you know beyond all doubt that Arenanet will not listen to.

/not signed on A

/not signed on B

Sometimes even another competent player is hard to find, or a player that has heros with skills equipped and insignias/runes/weapons, or even for that matter a player who has NF or GWEN to have the heros in the first place.....

Im sorry are people ignoring that fact this is about the casual player? If someone has to go afk multiple times (young kid as the example here again) it doesnt make a difference if its 7 players or 1. You are still forcing them to stop playing for what can easily be over half an hour each time.

For some people going with another player simply isnt an option. Hence the reason this has been asked for. While h/h can be used its extremely weak and is a punishment for people who dont have enough time.

And Anet are generally very good at listening to the community. Obviousely they will only consider something if they think its needed. Thats why we have these threads. We put down the pros and cons of ideas which can then be looked at. This is a change that a lot of people want (There is a vote linked to in the other thread that is 75% in favour) so its not a waste to make these threads.

Can you explain why you are against it?
There is a lot more gain for everyone when the pros and cons are put out there and discussed. Just /not signing doesnt actually tell anyone what you find wrong with the idea.

Playing with strangers isn't fun. What's the point of playing the game in a way that's not fun?

/signedA

Very good Post makes more sense than All the other posts out

Any reason for why /notsigned? or just something you don't want for you? In which case why hinder anet from allowing us to have it?

TYVM I hope that anet will pay attention to this and all of the other threads showing what their customers want. There really honestly is no VALID reason why they shouldn't implement this other than that it isn't currently in the game now.

A. /not signed

B. /not signed

I have valid reasons, not going to say them due to massive flaming and trolling from feedback.

I am interested in hearing your reasons.... I wont flame. I am only concerned with having a relevant discussion about why players should or should not be allowed to have 7 heros at any given time.

Not giving reasons doesnt really help however.
Is it because you think it will be overpowered?
Is it because you think pugs are the right way to play?
Is it because you just thought you would /not sign?

Its impossible to see the reasons when they arent given.


Also there really hasnt been any flaming or trolling. At worst there have been passionate people posting . As you can see in the other thread there have been some very good discussions between both sides. Its those sort of discussions that help.

But then this is a change that would allow so many casual players to finally play the game how they want. Finally access high end areas. Finally not be weaker than someone who has more time.
So its not a suprise we have passionate people posting.

Agreed completely. I am not here to be dictatorial and condescending to the people who dont want 7 heros in parties. I am here to ask Anet in an appropriate setting to give 75+% of the player base an additional and reasonable tool to accomplish the goals that many of us have set forth for ourselves without having the game itself dumbed down or the goals themselves given to us on a silver platter.

7 heros would allow for us to accomplish the goals through hard work and determination.

While I agree that 7 heros would not cause an imbalance in the game, A-net seems to have a pretty firm stand on their decision.

However, if they do not give us the option to have 7 heros, I would at least like to see individual henchman controls- Alesia trying to tank isnt very good. Nor is the healer hench trying to res in the middle of the fights. Even if we cant change their bars or equipment, I would at least like to be able to disable the healer's res, or tell the spirit henchman to setup before I pull, or being able to flag them without forcing all of the henches to move.

As much as I would like having 7 heroes, I dont see it happening. A-net has shown us hero controls, adding it to the henchmen as well couldnt be too difficult. And they cant tell me that would be unbalanced if we cant change their skills or equipment.

Ok people deffinately arent reading that other thread (or any of the previous posts in this one it seems )

Some people cant play for long periods of time, if they took the time to get 4 other players they would have to ditch them mid mission. Or those that have to go afk often, you cant join a group then expect them to be fine when you go off to do whatever you need to do.

And this isnt about not cutting it with henchmen. But why should the casual player be forced into a weaker team simply because they cant devote as much time as someone else?


I ask again, would people please read the other thread to see if their argument has already been replied to. It makes it a lot easier if the same thing doesnt have to be posted multiple times in multiple threads.

A. /not signed
B. /not signed

I have valid reasons, I am going to say them and I welcome a discussion, but as said above, not flaming.

Firstly, Guild Wars is and remains an MMORPG. The "massive" aspect has, admittedly, regrettably been missing from the start, but it shouldn't totally become a solo game. Sure, I'm guily of slipping into a dungeon with an all NPC party, and complete my campaigns that way (10 chars makes party searching and the problems tied to that rather unatractive). But most of the time, I play with an IRL friend, with 3 heroes each. If you want to play an RPG alone, get Zelda or whatever, it's not what Guild Wars is about. Heck, it's Guild Wars! GUILD. Go with a guildy. Go with a friend. Don't lock yourself in a room to play a "social' game by yourself.

Secondly, less importantly, seven heroes would skew the balance of all high end areas (and loot). The player market has (due to the lack of bind-on-pickup/bind-on-equip) always been weak, as there is a constant input of items with virtually none being removed from the market (I mean, a few PvPers aside, who customizes weapons?). Take DoA. Would it still be nearly as fun if evreybody soloed mallyx with their heroes? No, this is definately not signed. Not signed on behalf of the serious pvE players and not signed on behalf of the entire community, which is still a community and not a collection of individuals.

Its not that we cant cut it with h/h. I personally have completed all 3 campaigns with h/h on more than one character, but i would love to take my own builds into FoW/UW/DoA and vanquish the area... I cant take henchmen, my guild is constantly busy with something or another. The odds of getting a pug that can complete the entire FoW/UW is highly unlikely. The obvious solution would be to give me additional AI options for completion of the said areas. Anet has listened to its customer base before, and by petitioning i am hoping that they will do so again.

The more ways a game can be played the more people will be interested.

Limitations are usually a bad idea as long as they don't need to be there to prevent cheating other players.

So yes by all means have 1 player and 7 heroes, if it makes some people happy.

Well to start I appreciate you saying why you are against it.

In regards to your first point. Yes it is a multiplayer game. But does that mean I shouldnt play unless I have a good portion of free time so I can find a team and then go and do the mission? Most players are casual. They come home from work/education whatever, get to play for maybe 30 mins before they need to start preparing food, then they have to do some cleaning, put the kids to bed, maybe finish off some work or whatever. And all of a sudden they need to sleep.

A lot of people are in the situation where they play in small short bursts with maybe just the weekend where they can actually spend the time to form a team.

Should they not bother to play apart from the weekend?


And as to the second point (which was answered multiple times in the other thread) it wouldnt be overpowered. How is it that a team of 8 players running custom builds, using pve skills and most importantly the ability to think is worse than a team of 7 heroes and 1 player?
Heroes have a lot of problems, they stand in AoE, can int flare and then leave MS to cast, dont kite, dont stand in wards, dont combo skills etc. A team of players will always be more powerful.


And as for you /not singing on behalf of the community. A 75% vote in favour tells us that thats just not true. The casual player will always outnumber the hardcore players. Because of this a feature that allows a casual player to actually play the game is always going to have a lot of support.



Oh and also before I forget, GW is advertised as a game you can play with a team or solo. So playing with a pug isnt the "right" way. If they had advertised from the start that playing solo was going to be a weaker option they would have sold a lot less to the casual market.