Petition: no more heroes!

I'm here to chat with you about a little something - I know, it's a pretty aggressive looking title up there, isn't it? Let's just chat a bit and maybe we'll end up seeing eye to eye.

I've been around a while. Remember your first day exploring Tyria? I helped you thump those level 5 Charr, down by the gate. Those were the days. I remember the brightness in your eyes, the way we ran through the green fields, past the bull and my darling Althea. Back then nothing could stand in our way. I remember telling people, "Pair up! You can't do everything yourself!"

Then came the searing, and the world got ugly. We banded together, you and I, and some buddies of ours - Alesia, Orion, XxX Legolazz XxX and I Pwn Noobz, and we taught those Charr a lesson. Sure, I was a little headstrong, and might have been a bit impulsive, but you loved it, loved rushing headlong into danger at my side, backed up by your trusty healer, and the mage who loved to celebrate a good battle with a firestorm.

You've outgrown me. I've stayed in Ascalon, helping new player after new player on the road to becoming a hero - much as I helped guide you, once upon a time. XxX LegolazzXxX moved on too, never see him, but I do get to spend a lot of time with Stefan, Orion, Alesia and the gang. They miss you, as do I. Hehe, I still remember Alesia running across the sky to get back to where we wiped, or getting stuck on a rock (she's cute once you get by the hair thing, but not the brightest bulb in the drawer). Remember those days?

Now, I know that there's no room for me any more; my time has fled, and I relive it only in the early days of Tyria - but why don't you bring Stefan along? Why is Orion stuck here with me? He could be at your side, celebrating your victories with his pyrotechnic exultations! But no, your old friends sit alone, drinking their sorrows away.

Why? Because of them. Sure, the "heroes" sound good, from a practical standpoint. You get to decide their skill sets, order them around, like a bunch of robots. That's all they are, robots. Orion won't throw heal party, but he has principles. He's a fire mage, and dangit, he'll rain fire on Charr Corpses long after the battle's done!

Frankly, some of it is personal. I know my guys - Stefan and I hang out in presearing withthe bear hunters chugging ales pretty often for example - and I like travelling with them. Instead you drag me out with some bird-guy, a centaur pyromaniac and a guy named "so sucky" - of course I'm upset. But also it's about being fair to the henchmen. They work long hours, have helped you through the game time and time again, have died for you, only to be cast aside because of some new fangled bots.

Say no to replacing your hard working comrades at arms with programmable bots!
Let your old friends know you value them. Bring Alesia, Orion or Stefan out with you, or even your old pal "I Pwn Noobz". Take a chance on a PuG!

Say no to heroes, say yes to your old companions, your pugs, and the camaraderie of gaming.

And if you have time, come by Ascalon. I promise not to run too wildly into the fray (except in Nolani Hard Mode. Come on, it's just too cool).

Peace, your old friend with the flaming noob sword,

Prince R.

Hmm, I'm only posting because the title reminds me of the Stranglers song "No More Heroes". Other than that, very romantic post, but really, considering the multi-page war currently raging one post down about having MORE heroes, not the best time for this discussion.

And btw, Koss's hairdo is the funniest set of pixels in the game, so no, /notsigned

Nice attempt at an RPGish post OP. Very cute, but on to business:

Heros allow players to accomplish goals that were previously unattainable using henchmen. They add depth to the players understanding of the knowledge of the various classes and as such i would like to promote my own thread.... I you would like to have the OPTION of having 7 heros in a party available to you please give your comments here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10202643

It's precisely because of the other thread that I started this one. I wouldn't be surprised if it jolts Stefan and Alesia to write in as well, and even Mhenlo and Cynn will be worried about not getting into parties anymore.

Seven heroes would be a bad thing for all henchmen, as well as for gamers in general. I bet the henchman/NPC local 259 will be up in arms over it. Oh yeah, they're unionized these days - that's the only thing keeping heroes in line. Without the strength of the union behind us Anet would have given in to the demands for more heroes long ago. That's the real reason why they can't go to 7 heroes. The merchants and traders would walk out, the economy would collapse. Heck, even some of the big bosses are in the union - Mallyx would simply not show up to work, you'd find him picketing in front of the ToA.

Bottom line, even if you don't care about how it affects the henchmen, think about how it affects the gaming community. Sure, the game's easier now, but is that really a good thing?

You might as well say, play with less party members, or without armor, or something.

Henchmen as they are have pathetic skillsets. Orison and HB spam does not equal healing.

As for PUGs...

How am I supposed to complete chained and cross-linked quests (hundreds of them) across 4 continents with PUGs?

The way the game has changed it's impossible to play without heroes. Even if playing with other people, waiting for that missing member for 2 hours is not fun.

If I want authentic PUG experience, I go do "LFG Duncan" for 2 hours.

The game has changed. People have learned to play. The challenge of old areas is gone. I'll play with guild group. If that one isn't full, We'll use heroes. If PUG isn't full, we'll use heroes. If I have absolutely no other choice, I'll use henchies.

But personally, I don't enjoy having party members with 2 useless skills only. Players or henchies. Sorry, but no dice here.

Thats precisely it... the game isnt easier... is it easier to manage one skillbar or to micromanage 4? or for that matter to manage 8?

To make an effective 8 man balanced build one would have to have intimate knowlege of each of the classes to be used... is this an easily attainable goal?

I'm more likely to agree with a limit on AI support, whether its heroes or henchmen. I just think too much AI support negates any challenge Guild Wars intended.

If you feel the need to fill your entire roster with AI support then you have serious problem playing the game. The best solution would be to keep experimenting with your skillbar. Also keep in mind that a good player is always tweaking it's build, especially when the circumstances call for it.

Don't forget to tweak your Hero's build too, besides having the right heroes to work the builds.

Ever hear the phrase "It is the quality rather than the quantity that matters". or "less is more". If not then please think about it before suggesting 7 heroes.

I'll sign only after you'll find a way to remove stupid players from GW. And after you'l find a way to fill every area with normal players.

Yeah screw casual players, they only make up the majority of the playerbase. Who needs their money?

Good thread, Even tho im not really a pver.. i agree with you.. i pvp most of the time, But since its RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed now i started to pve again, I made a Prophecies character, and its like... No ppl to play with, Only way to complete it is to get runned,Cuase every1 is using their heroes.... Heroes Ruined both PvE / PvP imo.. Guild Wars was fun cause of team work, But yeah... What is guild wars now? Some1 give me some answers please..

I'm going to side with the Prince. Not surprising, we've both been playing since betas.

First off - removing heroes doesn't mean "never change henchman skillbars". They could be improved.

Secondly, ANet introduced a fairly powerful party search feature. It could be further improved, allowing you to list multiple quests even, or expanded to advertise across multiple towns/search towns.

Third, the illusion that nobody is playing and the difficulty finding groups is caused precisely by the existence of heroes.

It's ironic that a party search function arrived after heroes made it obsolete.

Takida you are in the oldest game shortly after the release of a new expansion. Most people are in GW:EN. There are a lot of people in every outpost in GW:EN right now.

Its now possible for people in your situation with no one to play with to complete the game using heroes so they have a decent team. Removing this would be very stupid, so many areas are dead that using h/h is the only way to go.

Hmm.... You know what you take away if you remove heroes from the game? The last element of skill we have left in PvE.

Now, its been such a long time since guild wars was released, and gradually, the skill element has left PvE. Gone are the days when skills were all shiny and new, and you could experiment with different combinations to make an interesting build. I mean, you can, of course. But most good builds have already been though of (yes, I know I may be leading myself into a "everything that can be invented has been invented" situation). There'll be a bit of experimenting with the new PvE skills for a while, but that will die down. And even then, you don't actually have to make up new builds, with the wiki as a source of good ones. So thats the character building element of skill gone.

There was also a fairly recent time when a successful vanquish had to be played out well, otherwise your party would get 60dp and you would fail. However, with the addition of powerstones, this chance of failure no longer applies, if you're willing to grind for cash. You still have to be good, but not as good.

So, now, the only element of skill left is the plan. Working out a team that fits together like a well oiled machine, rather than 8 separate pieces rolling about ineffectually. This will always be there for a team of 8 players, but henchies just don't work that way, so without heroes, if you're on your own, this element of skill is removed. I don't want that to happen.

3 heroes is good enough, not less, not more.

BTW. Prince Rurik was dead the last time Ive met him.

Why was the other thread locked then and this crap is still open?

Henchmen suck, no one cares about their involvement with the story when they have charge and healing breeze. If you actually prefer using henchmen over heroes you are a very very bad GW player and can rot in the game not being able to accomplish anything since you have no idea how to play it.

Keep blaming heroes for the fact that no one wants to group with you, rather then the fact that you carry mending and healing breeze on your warrior.

/this thread phails.

The reason no one is playing prophecies with you is because they are all in GW:EN now, or playing HM. TBH at anyone still playing prophecies now on NM - LoL - if you actually expect to make full player groups in prophecies for normal mode, and blame not being able to on heroes, I pity your brain.

Kind of reminds me when I'm in a proph outpost with 3 heroes setting their skill bars. Invite from a lvl 14 monk with players from lvl 12-15 (Yes there was a pug!). I get a whisp, Kick your heroes and join us.

I feel like hitting my head against a brick wall in order to bring myself down to the same level of intelligence as these players.

BTW people actually starting new characters in proph CANT actually use heroes for the first half of the game anyway. People with heroes have most likely already completed proph + factions on their characters that have full access to heroes.

More hero slots please

I stopped playing the game because henchmen became inadequate. I picked it up again because Nightfall added heroes. I never PUGed, because I don't believe in playing with people like the OP, who feel their enjoyment of a game is more important than mine.

All that said, I'd laugh my ass off if they removed heroes and henchies from the game. All the PUG crowd would be thrilled, up until they realized they were completely alone in district 1 in LA, Kamadan, EotN, and everywhere else. Remove people's ability to supplement with the AI, make this an all PUG game, and you'll abruptly find there's no one playing it anymore. Have fun grouping with your fellow selfish twits, if you can find them.

Oh and btw, if you're going to close the other thread, this one has to go too.

Go to maguuma jungle and look for a party there...

Oh! No one!

Heroes stay.

Keep the heroes. I'd like to have at least 3 people on my team that aren't gonna draw cocks on the compass or BS about how sad Britney's career is these days when we're trying to get through Hard Mode. I still PUG occasionally, but more often than not I bring back stories of Mo/Rs bringing level 5 pets and Comfort Animal into Ring Of Fire missions.

Plus, as noted, everyone's in GW:EN. You're just not going to have bountiful bored Level 20s dotted across the outposts, ready and willing to lend a hand while they wait for the next new thing. They're already in it.

I AGREE!!!! heroes are gay, they make nobody want to play together, and people are forgetting this is a CORPG / MMORPG and i almost never see people teaming anymore.

if i could have it my way i would have them shut off al the NF and factions servers and FORCE EVERYONE TO LOVE TYRIA AGAIN!

you wanna know the best way to see what gw would be like if we removed heros? look at EVERY SINGLE OTHER RPG!!!! gw is VERY innovative with heros, and i love them. without heros and henchmen i dont think i would play gw cause these "vile heros" provide a way to actually PLAY the game not sit in town saying "LFG" or "GLF" a million times -.-, why dont we just make a LFG simulator, no game just a big chat room where you yell lfg, im sure you would love that.

if you didnt notice /notsigned.

What's the problem ?

This game has no henchemen - if you don't hire them

No heroes - if you don't take them

No other players online - if you don't interact with them.

But most importantly all of the above if you want them.


So again I ask what's the problem ? play the game how you like and let others play it the way they like.

personally I play with and without players with and without my guild and alliance friends.
It all depends on what I am trying to achieve in the game.

You want heroes gone? You want to RUIN my gaming experience and those of a large portion of Guild Wars players just because you don't like heroes? Even when they're OPTIONAL?

You're trying to ruin our experience out of pure spite. When it will not benefit you at all. When all it will do is make all of us H/H players quit.

/NOT SIGNED

Best. Troll. Ever.

This thread is probably an ill conceived joke. But I don't see anyone laughing.
Also, Archer_Of_Vulpes, you really need to chill. Wherever I go all I see is wts/wtb/lfg/glf.

Great story, but don't worry. I'll always take Cynn and Mhenlo with me, at least in GWEN...

Ah, Alesia, lest you forget, you accompanied me on many of my adventures. Remember when I had to bring two run skills just to be able to get far enough ahead of you, just to aggro the groups first? You and your enthusiasm! You and your zest for Restore Life while our companions fell! You and your desire to wand every monster to death from Ascalon to Droknor's Forge while standing half an aggro bubble in front of the fellows with more substantial armor than tattoos and clothes. I chalked up your...quirks to simple youthful exuberance.

Then I brought some other monks along. These folks would spam heal party as a solution to one player taking damage. Warriors with a full bar of heal skills abounded at every turn. I was lucky enough to be taken under the wing of a guild who had noticed these same things and we resolved to always help each other whenever we could, and to never, ever suck.

Lo, the cruel gods of work, school, and relationships, not to mention basic human fatigue endurance, conspired to ensure that the small band of skilled players I called my friends were not always around, and I wept. But wait! We can band together with other groups of like minded people, and continue our goal of not sucking. But no, my dream was stillborn and some huge egos, along with an alliance chat full of racist jokes and trade spam, forced us to once again go it alone.

So to recap, we have players with no skill and bad skills, henchmen with weak AI and lame skillsets, and armies of players who think that Healer's Boon and Divine Boon shall be run in tandem.

Then, in a rare stroke of wisdom, we were given Heroes. Now, the only excuse for them being lousy was our own inherent suck factor. No more of Orion's firestorm parties. No more Alesia spamming Healing Breeze around groups of Mesmers. I can decide that I want to run a ZB monk with a Grenth's Balance Warrior and as soon as I can place the skills, it is done. It pains me to say it, but Necro Heroes are better MM's than at least 98% of human MMs, myself included. The warrior AI leaves something to be desired, but in terms of sheer damage output, they leave Healing Hands wammos right where they belong, back in AED 1, spamming LFG and blind inviting the whole town.

My last point is this. Despite losing drops, a percentage of money and having to pay to outfit them, players would rather bring heroes than PUG. Players would rather risk a firestorm party than risk the 95% chance that this player or players will be bad. I do not want to waste my two hours a day trying to help a player who doesn't know he needs help and will insult me for doing so.

Rurik, you are very patient to listen to me and my ramblings. Or maybe it's because you are dead. I distinctly remember killing you at least 4 times. Okay, there was the fifth time when you ran ahead and I chose to not heal you.

Hm, I would vote for a full hero party, but I guess it's the wrong thread.

So, I'm afraid it's /notsigned for me.

Heroes rock.

I hate doing missions, primairy quests alone, I just cant be bothered to do everything with heroes/henches. Id prefer them gone but I doubt they would ever do that. I prefer the failing pug over the succesfull heroes.

Translation: I have no one to play with so I QQ.

/signed for 7 Heroes.

A RPG themed suggestion post is a bad idea as it hides the reasons behind the suggestion. So if you have any good reasons in there, please separate them from your OP.

Also remember that the heroes were one of the things ANET advertised as being special about Nightfall. So if ANET removes them they instantly run into trouble with various false advertising laws in various countries. I don't know about other countries, but here in New Zealand they do get enforced. So regardless of how much the players want them removed, ANET's lawyers will advise strongly against it.

So even if I supported this idea I don't see any way in which ANET could legally implement it.

Haha, what makes you think that people who are already running h/h team would team up if heroes would be removed? That's just 3 henchies more.
Still, 1 player + 7 henchies > most PUGs

totally against it.

other way: want 7 heroes and sign on the other petition, which got "naturally" closed, only because gaile denied it on an other forum -.-

Best way to give this game again balanced gameplay for pve... this game was never an MMO, and it will be never one, its more like an MMO-Offline Game when you look at the mentalility of the gamers.
No one wants to play with others, unless you get forced by anet to do ...

This should get the developers finally into their brains ....

LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE, HOW THEY WANT TO PLAY YOUR GAME, WE'VE PAYED THE GAME(S), SO WANT WE AS PLAYERS DECIDE, IF WE WANT PLAY WITH A FULL PUG, OR WITH 7 HEROES !!!

Anet acts in this point like a dictator, like "We've made the game, so we will tell you all, how you have to play it, and their arguments why we don#t should have 7 Heroes are all dumb bad jokes.

7 Hero parties are not imbalanced, any 7 Pug party can play better then 1 player with 7 Heroes, even 2 Plyers with 6 heroes or 4 players with 4 heroes are better, then a 7 hero team ...

Anet does nothing about the loss of players in the old campaigns, which means, that certain regions of the game are over months now perma empty, because no players are there anymore, find there a full pug party and you can search for months ingame, anet has even the problem that the new dungeions are simple too uninteresting, that you have to search for certain of them for weeks to find a full pug, what was in the SPE total different, there wanted everyone make dungeons, there was a total hype on dungeons, because players couldn't know there, how imba the dungeons are and how stupid and cheap the rewards are, that making the dungeons is totally not worth the effort and stress.

Anet says, 7 hero parties would overfill the interface, god how stupid are they, they give us the opportunity to show 3 skill bars, so simple limitate this shit on 3 bars and finish ...no player wil have ever the need, to see all 7 skill bars of their heroes, 3 bars are enough and the player will ever open only the 3 of the 3 heroes, which the player needs IN THE GOD DAMN MOMENT, and when the player needs a bar not anymore - click click- bar away and an other of an other hero will be opened ... come on, when the developers didn't thought on this little point, then I must ask me really, if they had used their brains for 2 cents before anytime oO
When they would make 7 hero parties, this wouldn't mean, that the game is coming to its end from day A to B, players which want to make stuff then with real players, will make the stuff then with their Guild Mates, so simple, for that are PvE guilds there !!!!!! to play parts of the PvE game with your guild mates, and not with heroes, when your in a pve guild, but play still everything with heroes and henchs only, i must ask me, what such players search thenin a PvE guild, when they make nothing with their guild mates together....

there are enough other reasons for 7 hero parties and arguments, which let anets arguments look like cheap jokes, but they were all said here or on other forums, but Anet simple ignores them, like they ignore the community in last time in overall, when the community don't likes a change of them and goes then on the barricades, then they sent ever out only their games mascot called "Gaile" which will hear then ever only a bit onto that, what the Com has to tell, says then ever soem stuff about things she doesn't know, but will ask for with the result, that the com gets in the end totally ignored and going on the barricades was a total waste of time ...

Anet is like a dictator, that don't understands, that also dictators can make heavy failures and when the dictator gets frontated with their made failures, then the dictator simple kneels all down with ignorance as says to hisself "I'm unfailable"

Now is only the challenge in finding the best solution, because the community is splitted in 2 solutions:

Allow 7 Hero Parties or No Heroes anymore

Solution 2 is shit, because it would be a kick into the ass for every casual gamer, and 2. why erase totaly a feature of the game, when the system around it only needs an improvement and the rest lies then in the mentality of each player, if the players decide to play with 7 hero parties, or want to search a very active PvE guild to play in future stuff with guild mates ...


So, and now sry that I wrote this novel here, but I could had wrote most of it in the other petetion, when it wouldn't be closed -.-

Rurik,

I still look back and smile as a watched you die in the shiverpeaks. I have never lead the party on that mission because I refuse to run out into the snow screaming "RURIK NO!" I am sorry if you feel that henches have been neglected. I still take them with me to fill in for the now, enedangered good players that are actually looking for a group for quests. That is something I would like to see saved.

Please Please anet hear my cry. Bring back the good players that want to group. But since you cant do that because people have gotten tired of rage quiters, idiots that aggro worse than alesias bald self, people insulting other players, drawing penises and swatsticas on the compass, people talking about how cool the drugs they are on are, the talk in town of "any real girls wanna 'talk' " and other wonderful things.

So to combat this my old fried...i mean friend rurik, we talk heros and henches. Or if we are lucky we have at least one friend who can take heros and we dont have to take any henches at all. Henches much like your bar-b-qued girlfriend are a thing of the past. Now if only anet would come to grips with the loss, and move through the other stages of grief.

thank you for your time dead...erm dear prince,

~The Rat~

If I have learned anything on the forums its this.

1 everything could be solved says the poster if only arenanet changed the game to suit my ideal.
Yes and the few thousand other requests to change the game many of them mutually exclusive.

2 five people have replied aggreeing to my idea ergo the majority of players want it.
And the other threads giving the opposite view also replied to by five people means the majority don't want it.


SO
please
Be polite not abusive, be constructive not destructive.

Ask for things that you want added or offered as an option ie 7 heroes etc.

But never ask for something to be removed, your rights do not supercede those of other players.
Never did and never will.

At the end of the day if it's that bad an experience put the game back in the box and play something else.

respectfully
David

I cant really make my mind up on this subject, im a casual player. Still with 1 main character(just started another 1 from proph). I dont even have the skills to equiped, a mesmer,monk,ect, outside the basicskills you get with them. Nevermid the cost of giving them weapons ect, wich i did for the 3 first ones(and was a pain). And i just like PUGs, even failing ones(i never leave, leaver are wimps). So for me personally the heroes arnt much better then hench(they even listen less then hench,stupid midget monk).

On the other hand, there are a lot of places/missions ,like some already said, that just dont have any pugs forming. So heroes there with the better armor and some control over there skills, are a better alternitive then henchies

Heroes are ok, but not 7......GW is more and more like a single player game as it is..........pugs is what made me buy the game.

mzzls

ps maybe time to join a guild

I can't make my mind up either.

I used to love this game with only the tyrian continent.

PuGs everywhere, had fun with groups and stuff.. now it's all lonely :'(

But, then again, there's not always people for missions. So that's a good reason to keep the heroes since the henchies arn't too good mid game (Maguuma Jungles/Desert)

So, in conclusion.

/signed AND /notsigned

Oh, I liked arguing in the other thread, so I might just start here also.
A-net implemented heroes for a reason.

In prophecies, life was easy. Everyone was in one game and had to follow the same storyline (well, shortcut Beacon's -> Droks).
So teaming up with others was not that hard.
Along came Factions.
Factions was good, but caused a little problem.
The storyline was split, people were able to complete the game and skip parts of the game. Meaning less players in certain mission outposts.
At the same time, some of those missions became a pain for the less experienced player. So they got stuck at Eternal Grove or Hatchery.
Unwaking Waters was deserted quite fast after release.
At the same time, people were also playing Prophecies. Meaning people are also split on two continents.

<skip very important 'feature' introduction for now>

Then came Nightfall.
People on three continents. Again a split storyline, but with added heroes to make teaming easier.
Instead of several humans + hench it was now possible to team up with one other player and get a very decent team build.
So people would not suffer from abandoned outposts as much as Factions.

So far so good, in my opinion the added 3 heroes add value to team up fairly easy and get a decent team.

Say hello to EotN, more content, more heroes.

<back to the very important 'feature' introduction>

A-net somehow decided it was time to introduce (PvE) titles to the game.
Not only are people on four 'continents' of which three have split storylines.
They are also there to play the missions twice (normal and hard mode).
And they need to vanquish.
And they need to hunt skills, hunt chest, explore, get kurz/lux/norn/asura/vanguard/dwarven points, get *add whatever title possible*. Oh, they want to play in dungeons too.

If there was a single introduction of a feature in the game that started killing PuGs, it was titles and not heroes.
People are not playing for fun anymore, but for grind and vanity glory.
They can't team up anymore with others because time they spend having fun is not spend on grinding the titles.

Now take this my guild (about 25 people online on average evening).
If I go there asking "who's up for vanquishing Snake's" I will get about the following responces:
1 or 2 members: count me in.
Several: been there, done that
Several: I'm busy with ..... (add title thing, mission/vanquish or dungeon here)
Several: takes too long/no time
Several: not interested in vanquishing

If I ask "who's up for vanquish Snake's next Friday evening time X" I probably have at least 4/5 human players, with a little luck 8 or more.
Meaning the interest to do those things is there, but there is no way to team up quick anymore, because everyone is busy doing whatever they do.

Now take that to PuG teams.
There might be plenty of people that want to vanquish Snake's.
But where do they team up? Rancor? Deldrimor War Camp?
And when? Going to Camp Rancor and screaming "lfp vanquish Snake's" it's going to take a very long time before you have even 4 people together.

How do heroes fit in this picture?
When I yell in Rancor and find one human player, we can set up a team that is able to vanquish. It's also very possible with H&H, but it's more fun with human players. With a human player that also has heroes, it's possible to set up a team better for that particular situation.
And instead of waiting a long time to get players (sounds almost like Jade Quarry) it's possible to get started in a reasonable amount of time.
Since time is limited for most players and time spend waiting is time not grinded for titles, this became important.

In the early days I did not mind waiting for a PuG to form at ToPK for half an hour or more.
Now I still don't mind, but in the back of my head I know I could have done X to get closer to title Y in that same time.
A lot of people would choose to do that X instead of waiting for a complete group to form.

Errmn... sorry about that. Six years and she still holds a grudge over that, and she kinda took control for a moment there...

Your thread got served.
Have a nice day indeed