Solo, Groups. Casual, Hardcore. Can Anet cater to the best of both worlds?

Anets recent trend is fairly straight down the line. They are catering more toward the casual player than the hardcore player. It turn, its actually good marketing see how most of the players who buy video games as of now are casual players. But i regress, because unlike most people who play GW, i am a Hardcore player. Its easy for me to spend countless hours a day playing this game. GW has basicaly been transformed over the past 2 years to cater more for casual. Economy is purposely being wrecked, rare skin items are no longer rare, reskinned weapons and armor for players with only one campaign, ect... I am not saying this is a bad thing for GW, i am just saying for a person like me it kinda destroys what i loved about GW.

Dont get me wrong, we still have the elite missions that require a good skilled group and time to play. As well as torment weapons, which at this time still hold some value. But i would say 98% of the rest of the game is leaning toward more casual. GW now may never be what it once was, but what about GW2? Can Anet cater to both Casual and Hardcore players? I think it can be done.


I dont think GW would be where it is now without solo play. It was designed for the solo aspect from the start as well as the group aspect. I have played through most of the game solo yes. But i do enjoy spending the time with other skilled players and guildies alike in elite missions or just goofing off. But why cater to one side more than the other? This is a MMO. You can play how you want to play a game and noone can take that away from you. But the design is to actually bring a massive amount of people online to share experiences and to be social. I believe that there should be some seperation between playing by yourself with H/H and playing with a group. I dont believe that this game should be 100% H/Hable. Playing with H/H and Playing with a group are two different kind of skills to be learned. Two different playing types. They should net two different rewards. People who just want to play a game solo and who are anti-social should not be catered to in a community game. The economy is some what community, guilds are community, pvp is community. You want to play a single player game - there are other games out there that might hold your interest better. IMO.

In realitive terms, i think all aspects can be apreciated and catered to. It is very hard to have your cake and eat it to. There will always be casual people wanting the rare skins/armor and not playing for it. There will always be casual wanting to play elite missions but not wanting to spend over 20 minutes at a time to play them or dont want to learn the online aspect of the game and join a group or guildies to do it. The idea of saying that you will never get this item because you cant play for x amount of hours or you cant get this item because you cant solo it, is rather offensive to alot of casual players.

GW rewards skill>time. I believe that skill=time. The more you do anything in life the better you get at it. So why cant the Hardcore players have nice skins, armor and different quests than casual? Because its not fair? I believe they can still seperate and cater to both sides of all the categories and make the majority groups happy. Not everyone will be happy, but please dont cater to one side more than the other in your next projects.

I would like to hear other peoples thoughts to see if all groups can co-exist. This may be a very sensitive subject so i am prepared for alot of different thoughts.

I believe that a game that can't be played entirely solo (and enjoyed that way) isn't a game worth buying. One's entertainment can be bolstered by other people (I love playing this game with friends when I can), but it should never be dependent on them.

As to hardcore/casual, I've sunk 900 hours into this game. To me that's an almost unprecedented time commitment to a single game, and I've yet to remotely feel like I'm running out of fun things to do. I'm not sure where the line between casual and hardcore is, frankly, but for me at least that aspect of the game is fine.

Déjà Vu
Status Effect. For 10 seconds you get the feeling that we have done this thread before. When Déjà Vu ends, you lose 1 unit of sanity.

GW was never intended to be soloed if you mean on your own it was meant to be played as team game as in the word coop and competive.It just so happens it can be soloed well not quests or missions atleast most of them.

I am more concerned what will happen when GW 2 comes out and most are playing over there and would like some help on a mission or something.I would really like to see all missions eventually turn into big quests like EoTN has.

I don't know why people keep repeating that, as it's completely untrue. For the umpteenth time, from the original GW box:

If instead the box had said "multiplayer only, soloing is restricted to specific game areas and will be otherwise supported only at the sufferance of the game designers" I would have put down the box and bought something else. I'm not alone in that.

Yes it does mean well back in release it did as it is a CCORPG meaning cooperative competive online game yes meaning pve>pvp>pve.It was suppose to be team game back in beta as we were told this.

Its the definition of "solo." The box meant with henchmen (and now heroes). I assume Age meant "solo" as in alone, as in a Party of one member. I dont think GW was ever originally intended for that.

I don't think anyone's talking about playing without a party, I know I'm not. My only concern is being able to play freely with other humans or with AI in every part of the game. It can even be more challenging with AI than with people, but it shouldn't be impossible.

Ohhh. Misread I did.

I've been playing for over 28monts now.

I've played with PUG's, I've played with GUILDIES, I've played with 7 Hench and with 3Heros.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can play with 7 HEROS.

My reasoning is simple. I do not have the patience to sit and wait for a PUG, ping all our skills, try to get people to change thier skill bars or defend my own then venture out and have somebody quit the instant he gets 15%dp.

When I log on if my guildies are there we talk then go do something, no real need at this point to over plan anything. If there not online I like to just pick something dungeon/mission/quest and go do it. If I find a party forming for said Dungeon/Misson/Quest I may join them or I may not. I just like having the option.

I would prefer this post not be turned into another closed discussion about 7 heros.

I was really asking if can Anet cater both to the solo and nonsolo players, and the casual and hardcore players? Any chance of that happening?

Disabling map travel while in a group with other players would prevent someone from rage quitting.

Not really, they can always just log out. Disable that and they can always simply close the game. Disable that and they can simply turn off the computer. There's always a way out.

I'm honestly not trying to be an ass here, but it seems to me 7 heroes is how Anet could cater to solo players without harming fans of grouping. Absent that the game is always going to be favoring groupers, who can access all content in the game, over soloers, who have it much harder in hard mode and can't really play elite areas at all. I'm open to hearing an alternate solution to that that would be more acceptable to the grouper crowd, but for myself I don't see one. I don't see how Anet could be accommodating the multiplayer crowd more than it already is without changing the fundamental dynamics of the game to remove instancing and AI players, which is exactly what GW2 sounds like it's going to do. That'll completely alienate solo players, incidentally, so apparently Anet is of the opinion that both groups really can't be made happy and they should instead cater the game specifically to one. Bummer for me and those like me, I suppose.

As to the hardcore/casual divide, I have to admit that I don't see the problem. Maybe that means I'm a casual player (900 hours over 21 months, does that qualify) because I'm under no threat of getting bored with the game. I certainly am never, ever opposed to new stuff being added to the high end of the game, though, so long as when I finally get there some day I can have access to it. I actually tend to agree with you that skill = time, at least to some degree, and am perfectly comfortable with some things in the game taking seventeen ages (and a great deal of skill) to get to.

The game currently favors people who group so you should be happy.

You have whole areas that you can not play H/H (VERY irritating), I don't mean too hard to complete - that's fine - I mean not even allowed to enter it.
PvE only skills are only equipable by humans, none of your heroes can use them. In some instances this is a VERY large difference. In fact, when people complain about it Anet tells us it is to encourage grouping - giving them an advantage. Both of these put together means that there is a alrge part of the game H/H players can not experience without playing the game in a method they despise. If you to imagine somewhat how that feels think of if there was a dungeon that you had to hench and was the only place that gave the drops needed for the higest end armor and the hench/hero had special skills that you couldn't use - I'm sure you would be quite angry at being locked out of enjoying major sections of the game.

But then grouping vs non-grouping has little to do with casual vs non-casual. How many hardcore players looking for those really rare skins do so through solo-farming (truly solo, for example the 55 monk)? Most of your PUGs nowadays are the casual players because they do not have the skill to hench/hero and aren't good enough to get into a decent guild.

Then there are rare skins that are out of the reach of casual players - FoW, Elemental Sword, Tormented Weapons, and quite a few others. Should there be more such skins? Yes, even for the casual player they are nice - there was nothing like seeing that gold low req elemental sword drop with my name attached to it (and then the let down of it being one of the unusual ones with no inscription - bleh), with nothing out there being rare who cares what drops.

Anet is trying to do what they intended to do in the first place - create an MMO where one can play solo if you wish (as opposed to us that play an online solo game where you can multiplay when you wish). The first case that they are pushing will always degenerate into the latter - if you give people the option to solo all parts of the many will do so. The only way to stop the second class of people is to remove the ability to solo those areas, I don't see them doing that except in the elite areas - even in GW2.

I'm not too terribly worried about it, I expect something fairly similar to what we have now. If they want to keep it casual friendly and designed such that one can solo areas when they need too (which they stated they do) then those of us that want too can do every area that way. At worst we may get another Vizunah Sqaure or two out there but they seemed to have learned how much most of the players hate that type of mission. Not to mention that the same thing will occur all over again - when 70%+ of your player base wants solo content they are forced into going there (for example the introduction of heroes), it will happen there also.

I dunno, but I certainly hope you're right. I love this game, even if I do find my inability to access certain bits of it except on the rare occasion I can schedule an elite run with friends infuriating. I'd certainly LIKE to enjoy GW2 as well.

WTF...you mean the opposite. The reputation title tracks (Luxon/Kurzick/Norn/Asura/Vanguard/Dwarf) are basically ridiculous to max as a casual player. They also announced that GW2 will have unlimited/200 or so level cap...

Skill > time was the motto.

Skill is not = time.

That explains why people with FoW that didn't ebay/buy gold online have bad skillbars.

Farming is an example of a time consuming brainless/skill-less activity.

There are diminishing returns of playing the game. Once you reach a certain level of knowledge...you cannot improve that much more.

Racthoh is the biggest noob I've ever seen. Seriously, who does that guy think he is?

the problem with PuGs is there is also bias..like the ASSASSIN >_> A person could play the sin well but the chance of them getting into a PuG is a lot harder than pretty much everything else. For the record, I've only been kicked out once and that was because of a MONK who said "ewww an assassin?!" at the Gate of Pain. Right, the Gate of Pain >_> It took that long (prophecies, factions, most of nightfall) before I was actually not allowed into a group, but I do remember in the early stages that it would take a while for a group to let me in and even then it was under skepticism. (BTW, the group that took me in loved me cos I had Temple Strike and could therefore take out one of the dryders while a ranger with BHA took out another)

But usually I had spend most of my playing time with heroes or my boyfriend and his heroes because either a) it was taking too long to find a group b) the groups were unbalanced c) got into a decent group but tanked after 3 tries. I mastered Nahpui Quarter with just henchmen (no heroes, this is pre-nightfall and factions was still relatively new) on my sin o_O And in a PuG it couldn't be done until I made them let me lead.

As I also do a lot of things by myself (due to boyfriend being busy, people not online, strange hours that I come on like when I'm supposed to be sleeping like now >_>) it would be nice to have the 7 hero option. I've done all the areas I could in hard mode (missions and vanquishing) that I could with my sin and heroes and henchmen, but now I'm at a standstill unless I have one other person with heroes. And usually that's with my boyfriend because everyone else has now disappeared due to real life and game changes. It's annoying to go through an area to have 95% of it complete only to come up against the last boss group that requires more than just the henchmen skill set and they all wipe before my heroes and i do. And I don't even want to think about a PuG vanquish. mission maybe, but not a vanquish as those take a very long time and the chance of them having to go are higher.

Or if they could make the henchmen a little bit more customizable. It's fun having Mhenlo and the others in my party, but they just don't really cut it for hard mode. Maybe for different professions it would be easier, but for me as an assassin, it's just working out well >_>

And whether or not a person joins a PuG or not is completely up to their mentality and how they want to play it. You shouldn't be forced to be with a PuG, especially if you just don't want to play with other people except those you know.

Currently GW does cater to both I think (I consider myself inbetween) it just can be improved..as everything can always be improved o_o I may not want to play by myself, but I'm currently forced into it. And since I'm at a standstill my interest is waning.

I want my titles, dammit!

QFT.

I'm 7 months behind you though. Guildies & heroes ftw and bring on 7 heroes.

Yes Anet could cater to both worlds. However, they did not for some reason.

The OP has been misleaded. As shown by GW:EN, him and his hardcore PVE carebears will be pleased in GW2. Actually Life infu is right: Anet does not support anymore the casual, but the hardcore PVE carebear who like to grind. Because grinders are the main playerbase of GW.
Based on Gwen, you'll have to be 189 tier in whatever faction rank to have l33t armor. You should be pleased instead of complaining.

Very good Thread and a very good question for Anet Considering If you Bought the Collectors edition of Nf and Watched the DVD you would know that Anet Prefers the Hardcore Players They Love it when people take off work just to play Guild wars. But the casual player is the majority and majority rules even if Anet LOVES HARDCORE PLAYERS. They love them so much that if you make a fan site that rocks have a large and friendly guild they could offer you a job as a Alpha Tester. AKA UBER HARDCORE PLAYERS

I agree with the OP that GW doesn't cater to the hardcore. Very few games do. The market for hardcore games is so small because very few people fit into that category.

I would also like to see more hardcore content. I'm not in the top 5% of players myself, but I'd like to see something that's out of my reach for the time being. Something to shoot for. That would be great IMO.

Looking at the evolution of the game from Prophecies thru Factions, Nightfall and now Eye of the North, it appears that ArenaNet has lost sight of one of the key issues facing the casual gamer: available time per session.

Many casual players that I know sometimes have a hard time getting in more than 30 minutes at a time. This worked fine for most quests and many missions in the earlier campaigns. However, there has been a very noticeable upward "time-creep" in certain areas of the game, and it's extremely obvious now in GW:EN.

Players in my alliance have complained about certain multi-level dungeons taking up to 3.5 hours to complete. There is almost no way that I or several other casual gamers I know could ever hope to complete that.

This could probably be fixed by simply adding more cities/waypoints in convenient locations.

Because we like playing withe H/H makes us anti-social? Whoa! I can't even find words to describe this other than that is very insulting and you Sir are fairly condescending in your assumptions.

I won't even bother trying to explain why you are wrong, we definitely do not live on the same earthly plane.

Single player gamers, at some point, became an abusable "minority." The statement you have bolded there is the direct equivalent of "get out of my game." I don't think it's Anet's intention to alienate single player gamers, but certain members of the "I like grouping" crowd certainly seem intent on doing it for them. These people are, ironically, exactly the reason we don't want to play the game in PUGs. They believe their gameplay experience is more important than ours, and as such are very unpleasant to deal with be it in or out of game.

What's even more peculiar is that catering to the SP crowd has only one effect on the PUG crowd, it gives us the option of not having to play with them. They seem to realize just how unpleasant they truly are to deal with, in that there's an awareness that if people have the option to avoid them they'll take it. Interesting. Perhaps the proper translation is actually "you should be forced to play with me, because I'm so unpleasant no one will do it if they have the option to play alone."

I agree with you in a sense. I already stated in my post at the bottom that this may be a sensetive subject. But if you were to not twist the words a little it would sound alot less insulting.

First words in my paragraph you quoted, I BELIEVE, basically my opinion. Another was i stated that people who want to play solo AND who are anti social should not be catered to in a community game. I didnt say people who want to play solo are anti-social. I myself have played through the majority of the game solo and have contributed to the community, and made friends and joined great guilds. Same with alot of other guild wars players, they play through a big chunk of the game solo with H/H and they still are active in the online aspect of the game.

Mainly as far as i can say about hardcore and casual is not the dungeons but the game itself. Tryia missions were long and drawn out with bonuses to complete. They made Factions with timed missions some with completion times of 15 min. Nightfall added some flare with some bonuses but kept with the time. It was actually a good idea to shorten alot of missions. Rare weapons such as elemental swords, dwarven axes, runic swords, crystaline swords, tribal axes, all can be obtained alot easier in GWEN. The prices and the economy keep getting man handled by Anet, i understand the reasons for it because it only helps the majority of casual players to be able to afford certain items now. If you dont believe me, you could go back about a year or even 9 months when ectos hit 12k and beyond, rare skin items were going for 800k, now we have constant gold sinks.

I wouldnt mind grinding for armor if the armor was leet looking and were not reskins, but a different story.

But again, i think GW2 if done right, can be made equal or reach a certain median. I think that way both sides of solo/group, casual/hardcore players can enjoy the game alot more than they are currently enjoying GW now. The hardest thing about this game was it was mainly a test in my eyes. They created a pvp game with a pve side aspect. The pve side grew and Anet tried to compensate with other expansions and constant updates and nerfs. They had to try to transform a game that wasnt designed for certain aspects. Thats i think a great reason why to start GW2. Your not going to please everyone, but can you imagine getting on a forum site and seeing more excited people and fun posts.

ive said it before, and Ill say it again: Domain of Anguish. I WANT to do this high end area. I know I COULD complete it. But I REFUSE to have to get into a pug because anet is "forcing me" to in order to experience this high level tier.

Learning game tactics has no reason to be in this. why? if you are going to be a single player, you do not NEED to have tactics. you fail, think about what went wrong, and try again. the second someone dies in a pug however, is not a learning experience. all they will hear is "WTF WHERE WAS MY PROT!? I NEEDED HEALING BREEZE NUB!~!" /ragequit. What kind of learning lesson is that? noone can decipher what went wrong, who was out of place, and what skills were needed. all people hear are endless shouting. I think it would be great for newer players to be able to learn more hero strategies. Maybe then, they wont be turned off by this game. If they are, it wont be because people are using heros and do not play with them. It will be the silly pugs that blame everyone but themselves.

I agree what you say here. Anet/NcSoft make simple easy games and don't cater to the hardcore players. They get paranoid if they make the game too complex that many would not play the game and will see a reduction in sales.
Its all about making the game playable for everyone so people buy your game.

Hmmmm this thread is funny.
About hardcore players they are a small part of the game
There are more casuel playes
i think that 1 of the 100 players is hardcore
And that small group screems the hardest.
Do not listen to hardcore gamers they are never pleased
it's always to easy, and they always want more iff the weapons aren't leet enough they want more leet weapons.
iff there is hard mode they want Uber hard mode
the only thing they do is screem screem screem.

So this is what i wanted to say so flame on

Agreed, most hardcore players as myself can have a GW sitting for 12+ hours a day almost everyday. I personally dont have a life outside of work, forums and GW and i enjoy it. I can recall countless times i have called in sick to work so i can play with friends or guildies. I know its bad, but i enjoy it. So after all the time i play i want more content. Whats wrong with alot of content in a game? We play forever, master it and we want more of it. Beat HM, yeah Uber HM would be awesome. Screaming and complaining about the game because we care is not necessarly a bad thing, it might be a little sad, but not a bad thing.

I don't think those who have FoW armour and are Farmers aren't skilled look at all those players on this board.the game was never intended to be played this way but it turned out that way.I would take my hat of to those very creative minds that were able to do this solo farm.Anet should give them somthing for being creative as they though it wouldn't be possible.

I could mention one Monk on this board who farms and knows how to play the role as most do.Farming is about obtaining a goal unless they were to break the eula and buy gold sure I beleive there are those out there who got away with it unless their guild helped them out.Who knows how ppl got their FoW armour but it is there and players want it.It souldn't cost each piece for 15k and less on ecto and shards.It was to attract more players to the game if all the nice goodies were left out like the UW and FoW.This would only leave pvp for end game content and how many would end up playing that and Anet wouldn't of had that many sales.

Pugging was good when it was Prophecies only as it was much slower paced compared to Factions fast paced.Factions ruined what was GW it should never have come out only the skills and Nightfall was copied much like it.Anet shoudl convert Faction and Nightfall over to prophecies style missions skill quests and a slower learning curve as well get rid of there ranked titles who cares there is a thing called real life.To take it one step further Anet should abadon missions altogther as they were to ease you into pvp play well that is not happening.i would just turn them into mission quests like EoTN.

This game has eroded since Factions came out as well as The Battle Islands.Who asked for timed mission Viz Sqre mission what a laugh and Hard mode no one wanted that.They Anet are trying hold on to the playerbase but they have ruined it through farming and running nerfs.There has been lot of good players who have left the game even on this board.Anet it is up to you to fix it.

Hmm players like you don't make the game.
Why do the needs of the hardcore games be pleased.
it's shows how egoistic you are and only care for youself.
What does the blow jow avarge get from a game that is made for those fagile minded hardcore gamers.
I'm my eyes nothing.
iff you want a challange try real life turn off that frying pan and that refrigerator next to your computer and get a taste of real life that would be a challange

There's quite a large percantage, you'd be suprised.

See above. Remember, hardcore players are people really into the game. So why make a game that's suited for people liking the game but not too much?

And it's not about catering to *only* the hardcore, casual, etc., but to everyone.

And you're showing how careless you are for people who are simply other players.

So if I want a challange than I shouldn't play ANet's games. That's not a very good message.

a game needs to be for every one not only the big screemers
but just like i expected those who feel they are hardcore feel like they need to shut me up couse they are being told the truth hardcore games are never pleased.
it's always to easy sure maybe iff you screem loud enough Anet may hear you
and make the game for those so called hardcore gamers.
But ill go now couse you people go round in circles you have one thing one you mind
"I'm hardcore the game need to fit my specs screw those who play for fun."
So iff they leave play a other game.
And those so called hardcore players find out that a nice game to you'll come there and start shouting make it harder we hardcore gamers think it's to easy
and the whole thing starts over.

I got lost on the second half of this post. I dont know if it was bad grammer or babble. lol. Funny how i agreed with you in an early post.

Sorry not trying to shut you up, you have a valid opinion just like everyone else in the world, I as a hardcore gamer am not wanting to change specs of the game, but to add more content to enjoy. Is there something wrong with adding more content?

Do you not believe that casual and hardcore players can enjoy GW?

How does asking for more content screw the people who have fun?

I do not by any means concider myself a "Hard Core" palyer. (still not real sure just exactly what that is to be honest). But i do spend MANY hours on the game daily. 10 is an average. (I have no life). And I agree, more content would be nice, weather harder then what we already have or similar in what we have now would be wonderful. Either way, i dont care. After about a month of playing GW,(been playing 2 years now this month). I gave up on the PUG groups. I am to old to have to put up with the whily little 12 or 14 year old crying because he ran ahead and died and blamed it on someone else. MY personal favorite: The stupid monk didnt heal me, whats his problem, why didnt you heal me you noob. I already went through the snotty teens with my own children, I will not do it with someone elses on a game. If I want to put up with whiny brats, I will encourage my kids to have children of their own, and have them come visit. If no one in the guild is on (or alliance) or my husband is is at work, then i grab H/H and go for it. Weather it be vanquishing or just exploring some of my favorite places in the game. I love the fact that if i want to play alone i can, if i want company I have that option too. My husband and myself have vanquished 2 of the 3 lands (well, now 4 lands) together with heros (this before consumables), and eventually we will get back to work on that. Hard mode and heros are 2 of the best things i think A-net ever did for us. As for the people that want to complain that the game is to easy, I personally have 2 words for you :Hard Mode. If thats not enough for you, then dont go with a full group, go with 4 or 6 if you can handle it. And if you can do that, i congratulate you. Good Job! Now as for the nerfing of the skills, I love it when that happens to be honest. It gives me a reason to go back in to my skill log and rethink what im using. (I think this is probibly where the casual player in me comes in) I like the fact that they keep us on our toes skill wise. So what if my favorite skill just doesnt have the same affect as it did yesterday, I just think about what it now does or doesnt do, and build on that. I maybe try a differant skill instead. who knows, I may find one that is actually better. It has happened in the past, and im pritty sure it will happen in the future.
Thank you for your time.

I didn't know he replied to me.

Nonetheless, you've completely missed my point - and in doing so, kind of proved what I said awhile ago. Besides, people aren't saying "make the game harder," they're asking to "give us the option to make the game harder."

I got the impression they try to cater to everyone.
And this is why I fear GW1 and GW2 will be going downhill.

QUEST:
Try to unite these things in one game and make them all shine:
Soloplay. Groupplay. PvE. PvP. Casual Players. Hardcore Players. No grind. Rewards for those who play a lot.

It is hard enough to balance skills if you care for ONE game mode only, now try to take all things in regard and wonder if this can work.

In the end I fear a lackluster grinder MMO that is a dumbed down standard vanilla MMO with levelling that appeals to neither faction, neither casuals nor hardcore players, pvpers or pveers.

Right now I get the impression the ultra-casual PvE player who wants to grind a lot is their new target group, yet they still try to get all others into the boat, too.