Kinda Silly that...

Anyone thought it's kinda weird that the 20-30 or so heroes the world had, (even more counting henchies) could easily have crushed palawa, stopped the Charr, and save their respective faction with time to spare? I mean what are Undead when compared to Menzies, Nazi Emperors compared to Urgoz HM or Deep HM, and Charr compared to Titans?

I mean, granted. Orr was unpreventable as well as the rising of the dragons. But the rest should have been child's play.

Yep.

It's especially annoying that Ascalon falls while we're still alive.

Exactly. My primary character is from Ascalon and has crushed gods, demons, zombies, and the worst evils from the hellfires of the earth. Not to mention vanquishing Diessa, Draggons gullet, and the Breach. The Charr invaders probably weren't as powerful as what I faced. hell gimme a bonder and a spellbreaker monk for adelbern, dump him in front of ascalon city gate, and I probably could have won the battle. Maybe a p/mo for good measure.

QFT. At least wait until our characters are dead, damn it!

While I had the same response at first, looking at the dates, it does make sense.

The first of the disasters for humanity, the fall of Ascalon, happens 30 years after GWEN, which is in turn six years after the Searing. Assuming the average character starts adventuring at 18, Ascalonians would 56 at the time - still able to fight, maybe, but certainly past their prime. Canthans would be 54, and Elonians would be 51.

Emperor Usoku's tyrannism (is that a word? If not, I just made it up) started in 1127. By contrast, the Searing occured, from memory, in 1072. So that's 55 years after the Searing... Ascalonians would be reaching their 75th birthday, and the youngest, the Elonians, are around 70. Even by the standards of modern medicine, you'd be expecting them to have started dying of old age by this time, let alone remaining in fighting form.

Palawa Joko, on the other hand: It says "within sixty years of Kormir's ascension". Let's translate that as 60 years after the Searing... even the Elonians have reached the average lifespan according to modern medicine, so it's probably safe to say that around half of them have died of old age if we assume that magical healing is approximately as effective at modern medicine.

It looks to me like Palawa has essentially done what I predicted he'd do in an earlier thread - lie low and pretend to be a good neighbour (possibly even to the point of helping to defend against other threats to Kourna and Vabbi) until the current crop of heroes were too old to stop him, and then strike.

Good point Draxynnic. Plus as a warrior, I doubt my prime is much longer than EOTN. Think about professional sports players in contact sports. Their careers generally end pretty quickly. If an injury didnt get me, there would come a time where I just couldn't support my armor/shield/weapon. Sad, but true.

At 56 I highly doubt the ability to go toe to toe with a 20 year old (or the equivalent age) Charr.

We were off with Rurik dancing on Vatlaaw's corpse, rather than out killing the Charr.

But all games are this way, the armies fail and the main character(s) can take on everything.

We should still try to defend our lands. It seems, the way things are written, that several mini apocalypses occured over night between GW1 and 2, and we didn't do anything about them.

draxynnic, your point about Joko, I couldn't agree with it more. Wait until the current heroes turn old - especially since it feels like we're the only heroes, and nobody before or after us (aside from our GW2 chars, that is ) have the slightest chance of doing anything to help the world.

I think draxynnic pretty much nailed it, but there's another thing.... All the heroes are really spread out. The world may have 20-30 major heroes, but if they try to prevent everything bad from happening, then they would have to spread out across Kryta, Ascalon, the Far Shiverpeaks, Istan, Kourna, and all across Kaineng City leaving only 4-5 heroes in each general area. Each of those general areas is rather large, so the heroes would be spread very thin, indeed. That combined with their age and being well past their prime does not make for a very powerful league of heroes.

Rather, think of it this way. If our heroes weren't around at all during those years, things might have turned out much worse much faster. Or perhaps the heroes were busy delaying the other dragons from awakening as well or saving the world from some other major disaster that the rest of the world would never learn about. Perhaps most of our heroes even journeyed to the far east of Tyria in search of new lands and new peoples during some of these disasters and by the time they returned the situation was too bad for them to redeem it.

Lots of things could have happened, but I suspect a great deal of the missing in-between story will be told within GW2. After all, much of human history has been lost by the time GW2 begins, so I think one of our tasks will be to recover some of that lost history.

Indeed. GW2 has tossed us humans aside like rotten cabbage.

But the SUNSPEARS! In Elona, the Order and the Sunspears should be able to fight Palawa to a standstill.

And the headmasters of Shing Jea were brilliant and powerful. Hell a good number of the Henchies were them. Not to mention the Canthan Guilds. And that doesn't even include the Factions.

And in Tyria... The Ebon Vanguard? Did they just vanish? The lionguard? Combined with the Ascalon armies, I believe they could have stopped if not beaten the Charr. And I find it hard to believe that the mighty Forgotten and their constructs would have bent easily to Palawa. Afterall, they are an extraordinarily powerful, magical race.

30/3 = 10 heroes not counting henchies each. Maybe a disproportionate amount in favor of Tyria and Elona, with more henchie heroes in Cantha.

That one at least can be fairly easily explained: The Forgotten, at least those in or near Palawa's territory, got virtually wiped out by the Margonites. We don't know how those to the north fared, but it seems reasonable that if they didn't go to help their cousins to the south they had a darn good reason not to. I'd guess they simply didn't have the numbers to offer Palawa any significant resistance, and any survivors probably just laid low in order to pick a more important fight.

Keep in mind that it was humanity that overthrew the order the Forgotten were originally brought to Tyria to preserve - they probably don't figure they owe humanity anything. Heck, they may even have petitioned the gods that they weren't even remotely able to fulfill their roles any more and asked if they could just go home...

Well, the reason the Searing happened was because the Ascalonian army was stretched thin after the Guild Wars. Read the manual

"For many generations the Sun Spear were the guardians of peace and justice in Elona. Before the dark times, before the return of Palawa Joko. A young Sun Spear named Koss Z. Jenkins III, helped Joko hunt down and destroy the Sun Spear." - Morgahn Jr

Lol, I would laugh so hard if it really turn out like that. As for the Order of whisper, their pve only skills won't work on the undead so they ran away and hide.

Who wants to save nations when we can be at the Battle Isle shouting '4k for cyber partner' or in Lion's Arch spamming 'WTS ectos 5k'

The Battle Isles went kaboom.

Lion's Arch is still there, though.

It will be interesting seeing these post-apocalyptic versions of old GW areas though. Kind of like how it was neat seeing how similar Old Ascalon and <that explorable area in pre-searing with Ashford Village> were.

God...I've forgotten the name of that area. What is wrong with me?

Nothing's wrong with you.. I had to google it myself! Doh!

but then again its kinda silly that there are thousands of players, why cant they all take palowa on at once. its a game..just accept it as it is.

i think that the heros just become too old. there would be no point in ressing after it had died because they would still feel like crap.

Haha, tens of thousands of geriatric heroes, too weak to lift their Brute Swords, standing on the Great Northern Wall watching the Charr come charging.

Adelburn has the right idea there, when you're old, use an FDS cos its all lightsabrey.

I think the Sunspears all became reconstruction workers, and were caught offguard by Palawa Joko, as they were rebuilding the mosaic in the Garden of Sebohin.

"What? You mean <insert Character Name> did not kill Palawa Joko when he/she had the chance?!?!"

Agreed. If a mere human can
1) save the world four times over
2) destroy an army of titans
3) send a tormented soul back to the Mists
4) kill a god (and his 5 most devout followers [Mallyx, Dreadspawn, Jadoth, The Fury, and The Grater Darkness])
5) save the whole world from a raging fiery end
6) and much more, why could he or she not simply gather their friends, pounce all over the charr to keep Ascalon, walk over the Mantle in Kryta, annihilate the destroyers, and save the world several more times?

It makes no sense that a person could accomplish so much in 8 years (Story wise, not real life.), and yet, others of their quality, maybe even greater, let the world down. Were the millions of truly "chosen", but the world in 250 years is SoL with no true heroes?

As ridiculous as it seems, it's what needs to happen to set the story. I don't like it, but it'll come out for the better, I hope.

It like a balance For all the good we do something evil must going to balance it out

Ok hee is what i think.
By the time we destroy Great Destroyer, Dwarves become stoned. Norns go South and Humans are spead on many lands. Now one human nation, Ascalon, the one which has lost so many things. Guild Wars before searing, searing and constant Charr raidning, plus some of its people seeked refuge in other lands there couldn't be many Ascalonians left to defend their nation. Maybe they would have had strenght to resist Kryta since Kryta is ravaged by civil war it self but they surely wouldn't have strenght to fight whole race of beasts! Sunspears got wtfpwned in Gandara and pretty much evrywhere in Elona so even if Koruna armies, Vabbi guards and Istan shorewatchers joined alltogether in one army it wouldn't be easy to fight off undead. Undead can return to safe grounds in Desolation where not many mortals can come, and rest and regain their powers unlike humans in Elona. Human lands ravaged by Margonites could be easily raided. Lightbringers maybe powerfull but they are not an army. They are agents. They spie, assassinate nad safeguard. They are much like Partisans in Yugoslavia in WWII. They can't risk a fight on open field but they can hit and run. So i am not very suprised that Elona fell. Palawa has a Giant Army. Plus he corupted the river Elon for Massive Damage. Poisoned water in desert plains of elona aren't really suitable for life.

Oh and i can't wait for expansion pack to come out so we can go south to Cantha and chek out cool Millitary (comunist like) nation. It has to be total win!

If you guys noticed in the gate of desolation with the wurms at the end the cinematic showed a palawa joko unable to get his men lined up immediately and the Heroes considered him no threat for the time being. I think it'd be pretty easy to forget something I thought pathetic while a god of darkness breathed down my neck.

I also find the image of my character in a wheelchair commanding undead minions disturbing and sad.

With Ascalon, yes. Not so much due to the Guild Wars, but with their population base so devastated by the Searing, they really would have needed someway to keep the Charr back apart from force of arms to hold out.

In Elona's case, however: Apart from that Palawa was freed, I don't think the events of Nightfall really had that big an effect on weakening Elona. There was sixty years between Kormir's ascension and Palawa taking control - three times the period between the world wars - and I didn't get the impression that the civilian population was that heavily affected - probably about as much as WW1 and the following flu epidemic affected the real world. The militaries of the three provinces would have had time to recover.

It's probably just a case of there being no Turai Ossa this time around.

Its most likely down to a combination of a few unmentioned things:
1. Everyone was arsing around fighting the enemys and not bothering to get married and make children.
2. By the time everyone had enough time to settle down they had realised that all these years wearing very restricting underwear had caused them to become infertile.
3. Alesia the most useless of all monks and cannon fodder most likely ruined any great tacticle advantage.
4. Everyone had immagrated to krytan because of the nicer weather and better paid jobs.
5. The krytans couldnt get any jobs in the army due to all these immigrants coming and stealing their jobs.
6.And due to the fact that no one was having children, lack of pay in kryta and the fact anyone who survied didnt want to do any more work there were no more schools/acedmys/military training centres built.

And thats not mentioning the rising prices of gold because they xulnian agents were cut off and no one could speak their canthan version of chinese.

Also keep in mind, the sunspears weren't really that effective to begin with, aside from a few heroes. They were devastated by the failed attack on Varesh in Gandara, and I'm asssuming they and the order of whispers took further losses from the margonites and Abadon before the heroes were able to stop them.

We were crushing them at Gandara until the demons popped up.

And if it wasn't scripted, we probably would have. It was just 2 Blades of Corruption, Varesh (who probably didn't have the be-reborn-as-a-paragon thing she did when we finally filled her, and probably didn't have all the unique skills she does pre-rebirth either), the Hunger, and a handful of Kournans versus a full party, Kormir, and a few dozen Sunspear archers (with a few warriors mixed in).

Even if they were boss Blades of Corruption, I'd have given it a go.

yes this did actually kinda annoy me because if my character can kill the lich, shiro, abbadon and the great destroyer then wots palawa compared to them? i mean what is soo good about undead? if we can kill them in gates of desolation why couldnt we kill them in palawa's return.

All the monks were on strike again.

The situation is not as simple as it sounds at first thought.

While as the heroes we are are the ones that made the crucial moves, we must keep in mind that they were not alone in it. While the support is not explicit, if read carefully enough, it is easy to discover how we were aided:

-the heroes escorted the refugees across the shiverpeaks with help from the dwarves (not direct help, but the stone summit were fighting the Deldrimor dwarves and thus couldn't focus on the humans). Not to mention that the remainder of the ascalon army kept the charr at bay, acting as a rear guard.

-The white mantle helped provide safety for the refugees while the heroes split off on solo (unburdening the heroes so they could go on).

-the shining blade helped the heroes fight the white mantle after the betrayal is discovered, and later the undead controlled by the Vizier were a help, too.

-the heroes RUN AWAY from the mursaat into the desert. In the desert, they face no organized resistance, but only tests by the gods to determine worthiness.

-the heroes return north into a triple war zone: the Mursaat are butchering both Deldrimor dwarves and the Stone summit (with the shining blade already defeated, or at least scattered). Both the Stone summit and the Deldiromr dwarves help with the situation: the Deldrimor actively support while the Stone summit tie down the Mursaat.

-the heroes reach the Ring of fire with support of a dwarven contingent and are boosted by the Vizier

-as the Vizier turns, the titans storm the continent. Fortunately, the lich sends them out after the main population centers instead of having them all chase us down, so we can freely skulk around, close the entry portals and assassinate the Lich. Meanwhile, the titans cause major headaches for the armies on the continent (Mursaat, Lion guard, Ascalon army, Shining blade remnants, Deldrimor dwarves,...). The titan quests are what we need to get them down - andd we are assisting armies there. (remember, all is scaled down for these games)

OK, Factions:

Factions is simple. The heroes are the tip of the spear, but always supported by the armies of the empire and eventually both Luxons and Kurzicks. We may be the ones that go after Shiro himself, but the armies of the afflicted are held at bay by the imperial army, and by the time of the Shiro'ken the Luxon and Kurzick reinforcements arrive, too.

Nightfall is a bit more developed:

-you start out as the sunspears policing the island of Istan.

-the might of the sunspears assaults Gandara, and are crushed. Most dead, the rest scattered. While the Kournans scour the lands, the sunspears hide and run away (remember the secondary quests).

-Istan can rely on its fleet for defense (remember, Istan is not the same as the Sunspear order), so the few remaining sunspears head north to recruit the Vabbians to their cause. They manage to foil the preparatory operations (otherwise, Vabbi would face the kournan military and the margonites with one prince assassinated (Bokka) and one hiding in the hidden city (leaving the armies leaderless) and rampaging heket (the heroes break up the alliance between the heket and the kournans). In the end, the combined might of the Sunspears, the vabbian military and the djinn is enough to prevent the Kournans from ransacking the lands (Jennur horde, Nundu bay, Attack at the Kodash... - note that there is some significant damage done in spite of the succesful defense), but then, we know that Varesh is actually more interested in just passing through to the north - her true goal is ruins of Morah, where the last of the rituals must be completed.

-now, forget the whole junundu debacle. What Palawa Joko really offers the sunspears is his armies - they are what holds back the margonite hordes (read the quests over there). Without them, the sunspears would face the whole might of the hordes, which would be a lot more trouble. While Palawa Joko may not have control of all the undead yet, what he has is enough to hold the margonites back. While the threat he poses provided he returns to full power is recognized, we must keep in mind - he is an ally.

-Realm of torment is the only area where we fight without support. It would seem that the sunspears there are just a small team penetrating into the heart of the enemy, destroying some infrastructure (Soul dam in Gate of Pain) on the way. The victory acts alone are apparently all about assassination (killing the generals in GoMadness, killing other key figures in quests, killing abaddon).

EotN, here, the whole game is about gathering support, so I'll not go into the details.

Essentially, the heroes are heroes who performed the key deeds, but they were not alone.

After all the fighting and saving the world, all the heroes took a nap. When we woke up, the world had quietly turned into a shithole.

Actually, even then, the heroes found that the gatekeepers of the Realm of Torment, the Forgotten and allied souls that joined them after ending up in Torment, while having been put on the back foot - er, tail - still hold many strategic locations within Torment. Imagine trying to go all the way from from the Mouth of Torment to Abaddon in one long instance with no outposts to stop, recover DP, and adjust skills along the way...

Which just reinforces the point. To use your metaphor, at almost every step on the way the heroes were just the tip of the spear. At the times when the various events occur, the head of the spear has started to rust (seems a decent analogy for aging) but, more importantly, the shaft has been cut away.

Alright. Fine. Where was the Kurzick and Luxon support? I find it hard to believe they disappeared. And kuunavang too. What happened to him? But the Emperor with his millions of gold (considerably few lol. Quite a lot of us are richer), was able to raise an army to: beat the am fah. Beat the Jade Brother hood. Beat the Kurzicks IN Echovald, beat the luxons on their own turf as well. and take Shing Jea island which is defended by the wisest and most powerful single people in the land. Along with the Tengu.

The White Mantle were gone, fine, the lionguard had to protect the refugees. What was the Ebon Vanguard doing at this time? The Ascalon Vanguard? The Ascalon Army?

The Sunspears should have thrived in post war Elona. Espicially now that they have the backing of not 2 but 3 armies. Also, are you telling me Glint would have sat idly while her domain was overran?



There's the support. Now lets add our heroes.

8 people + Shing Jea profs + henchies, at the head of all those armies? Against a guy who fuels his whole army with the same amount of gold I use on one guy? I dunno how many 1.5k sets 3000k can buy... (actually i do), but not enough to overwhelm all the heroes at the helm of two of the most militarily experienced nations in the land.

As for Ascalon, let's look at it this way. We were weaker when us + ascalon army + vanguard defeated the Charr ( I mean before crossing shivs). Both the army and the vanguard would have taken losses right? But then the EBON vanguard, recently befriended can fill out in place of the lost men. And throw in heroes who were stronger than they used to be to get this equation:

4 Young unlearned heroes + Ascalon Army + Ascalon Vanguard < 4 Extremely experienced and skilled heroes + Weakened Ascalon Army + Weakened Ascalon Vanguard + Ebon Vanguard


And last but not least, The heroes are spearmarshals, legendary lightbringers, the finest commanders in all of Elona. They should be able to beat Palawa Joko (they did earn the wurms) when backed by all the mentioned armies.

I was under the impression that the Ebon Vanguard was a relatively small band of troops who decided to harass the Charr while the main Ascalon army defended the city. I imagine they were still doing that when Ascalon got wiped out. They would not have made a significant difference in a final battle and served Ascalon better with their raiding tactics in the north. In fact, if not for us in GW:EN the Ebon Vanguard probably would have been wiped out completely.

Wait, when did we defeat the Charr? All we really did in post-Searing was push them back out the wall, and that was only because they weren't expecting a sneak attack. The kingdom of Ascalon north of the wall was still overrun with Charr even though we completed a few quests that hurt them a little. Are you forgetting why we crossed the Shiverpeaks to begin with? Even Rurik knew that we could no longer expect to defeat the Charr and should flee instead.

You're right about one thing, though. The Ascalon army and vanguard took significant losses both during and after the searing. Once we pushed the Charr back to the wall, I'm sure it was all the army and vanguard could do just to hold it for as long as they did. And as I mentioned above, I really doubt the Ebon Vanguard was able to help them, as they were busy harassing/distracting the Charr in the north. But even then, the Ebon Vanguard was reduced in numbers as well.

Ascalon was doomed the moment the Charr seared the land. All we ever did was prolong inevitable defeat for Ascalon.

@The Shelf
Couldn't agree more mate.

Now we are heroes but being powerfull hero doesnt mean you and your brothers in arms (who are also heroes) can defeate whole race! Race of beasts whose only way to survive is to hunt down and as such they are very experienced.

Oh and one more thing, i think it is offtopic but it still considers events that happened after the curent Guild Wars time. There is a mention of a lonley fortres in the far south of Ascalon that is conected to Kryta with Asura Gate. Now that fortres, i assume is builded somewhere near Crystal Desert. That may explain so many Ascalon Soliders in The Dragon's Lair. This fort i am speaking of used to fight of Orrian Armies invading Ascalon and to make a place of rest for Ascalonian armies atacking Orr. I find it really cool that we would have a chance to see sothern parts of ascalon cause i have always wanted to find more about them.

I don't think it's off topic at all. It is the one beacon of hope for Ascalon...

Meet you at Ebonhawke.

The Ebon Vanguard IS part of the Ascalon Army, sent out to disrupt Charr supply lines sometime between Prophecies and EOTN. In fact, I believe it's stated in the lore that it's actually formed from or drawn from the ranks of the Ascalon Vanguard.

It recruits from freed and escaped Charr prisoners, yes, but it's probably taken casualties along the way as well.

That was just for show. There's a difference with lore-wise and gameplay-wise

Gameplay wise a couple of lvl 20s could smoke the entire Charr army in Great Northern Wall but storywise, we would have been owned

Only in normal mode.

(But yes, I did have fun with that with a level 20 W/E. "Did you just try tanking the entire Charr army?" "Yes... and then you had to end the mission before I could collect all the loot...")

Still, it would have been better if they'd shown, say, the Drought and some other boss demon instead of two Blades. Anyone who did the original Gain Zenmai quest would have already known that even level 28 Blades aren't that tough.

Very few AI warriors mobs are dangerous. Only ones that spring to mind are Aatxes and possibly Abyssals, everything else is too easily countered