Soul Reaping and its abuse

I play as a Necromancer, so you'll probably say my thoughts are biased because of that, but I will say them anyways.

You suggested that Necromancers should be within earshot of the dying foe/ally; that causes a problem right there.

I play as a (Non-"Cookie Cutter") Spiteful Spirit Necromancer. I like to get in, cast my Hexes, and move to the back. By moving to the back, I would never gain extra energy in your proposed idea. If I had to push up anymore, I would easily be a setting hen for a mob of monsters or just one boss (Especially an Elementalist boss).

By reducing the range of Soul Reaping, the Necromancer is put into a "I hope my Monk(s) can heal me so I can get this little bit of energy" type of situation. That would pressure the Monk(s) so much more, because not only do they have to watch themselves and seven others, they have to pay extra close attention to a caster because they have to be so close to just get the benefit of their primary attribute.


In Random Arenas/Team Arenas (And I'm figuring Guild vs Guild and Hero's Ascent, I've never really played them too much), you won't get that much energy from dying foes because there's only 7 members who can die who'd give you energy.

In Alliance Battle, it's different and you do have the chance to have unlimited Energy for quite some time. I do not think I get Energy from stuff dying half way across the map, so I either have to go with a Minion Master who can't hold up his Minions very well (Which, would pretty much be asking the enemies to kill me!) or go with a group to get a steady supply of Energy.

I don't have much GvG experience so I can't speak to that, but check out HA again (I don't know how often you play it) and ask a team what backline they're running. Even if they do have a BiP necro (a rarity these days, but I've seen it fairly recently), they'll say "2 monks" or "3 monks" or whatever. They don't say "2 monks and a BiP;" usually because the BiP necro does other things--he doesn't just spam BiP and if he did his monks would yell at him. Just because BiP and BR support the backline does not make them a part of it.

Which brings us around nicely to my closing point regarding this necros as backline: a handful of skills do not define a class as backline, and it doesn't justify the power had from SR + protective spirits.

I called BiP and BR "open-ended" because, even though they usually are, these skills don't have to be used exclusively on the backline (whereas backline skills should be used on targets taking damage or about to take damage; otherwise they're wasted). Usually if a team has it, the players will keep it in the back of their heads and will call for a BiP (regardless of their character class) whenever they feel they need energy. In that sense it's more of a party-wide support skill rather than a strictly backline one.

But yes, we're using the terms differently and I think that's causing us to talk past each other a little bit. To me, "backline" means heal and prot; nothing else. A character can stand in the back, but if he's casting spells (even if they're sacrifice spells!) that augment the team's offense, he's not really "backlining" from a procedural standpoint. Sure, he might be standing in the back and sure, he's interested in avoiding pressure every bit as much as the monks are, but his role within the party is either offensive or mixed, which precludes him being a strictly defensive player, and that's what I think of when I think "backline."

I'm a bit sensitive about what's "backline" and what isn't because it's about all I play. I just brought up the example to illustrate that a backline (as I use the term) doesn't and often can't afford to stand in the back.

I'm going to have to stop you right there. Are you seriouisly comparing Divine Favor and SR in terms of energy management? 32 extra HP for healing is nothing compared to having infinite frigging energy (which you will almost always have as a N/Rt if your team knows what its doing) for the whole match. If you don't overheal and do a good job of watching the screen, you will never run out of energy as a N/Rt, almost regardless of what kind of pressure you're taking.

Also consider the fact that the wide majority of necro healers go N/Rt over N/Mo, and suddenly the DF/SR comparison comes down like a house of cards. Ritualist heals are balanced differently than Monk heals, owing chiefly (of course) to the aforementioned Divine Favor attribute. I don't know whether or not they're more energy efficient than monk heals, but it doesn't really matter that much when you're getting infinite energy.

There is no tremendous amount of calculation involved in determining whether DF or SR will be more energy economical for a healer: SR is wildly superior, especially when you consider that the same things that are essentially protting your team (shelter, union, displacement, et al) are also your batteries. Divine Favor is one of if not the worst primary attributes in the game; Soul Reaping is easily one of the best.

Most spiritwat teams run 2 N/Rts and a Rt/Me, at least from what I've seen (but I haven't played in a couple weeks). So usually they tend to do an okay job of spreading their spirits out amongst these characters so no one is caught with his proverbial pants down.

I don't think spiritwat (as a whole) is overpowered either, but the backline kinda is. It can be beaten easily enough, but that's usually due to player error rather than any glaring shortfall of the build (which is actually pretty weak) or its backline (which isn't). I won't really mind too much if they leave things the way they are, but SR from spirits has bothered me for a while now, mainly because we monks have no technique that even comes close to being as good as the prot/battery ability you get from spirits and SR.

I don't want to come across like I'm bitching about the meta; if I gave you or anyone else that impression I apologize. I know people run builds that are easy and viable, and that it will always happen. But as a career backliner (hehe ) I feel a bit put out that monks have been marginalized to this degree by a class that has literally dozens of other uses in PvP. Necros have a wide variety of weapons at their disposal and are capable of many (often wildly different) forms of offense or support. They can hex spam, they can add offensive or defensive pressure, they can even deal direct damage--and now they can backline better than monks. Monks, on the other hand, have no use beyond the backline (okay, we had Dual Smite Mk. I and Mk. II before and just after Factions, but they fell off the board pretty quickly) and now all of a sudden we're playing second string at our own game to a class that, frankly, has enough other uses.

honestly, the energy gain from spirits should just be removed...*puts on flame proof suit*

Seems like you got owned by some spirit spammers and are PO. So why not petition to nerf spirits? Why choose another classes primary which has already been nerfed to hell and back. Plenty of necro's need SR to run necro skills you know, not all necro's run spirit spam. How would you like it if all your main heals were 10-15 energy? Necro's aren't ele's you know. And we're not monks who can run full bars of 5 energy spells either.

You do realise that for SR we do have to put points into it, right? It's like a third of our attrib points or so. Not like its just free for being a necro. Running a 12-9-9 or 12-10-8 is pretty common, and using 9 points or so for energy management is fair, don't you think? What about you monks, do you spend 9 attrib levels on energy management? If you don't then what right do you have to say our energy management shouldn't be better than yours?

/not signed
I'll sign the day that divine favour only triggers on allies^50% health or when it only triggers 3 times in 15 secs. Nerf spirits if you want, but leave our SR the hell alone.

From a necro, and proud of it.

Look at this, a ranger build that can spirit spam.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/Rt_Oath_Spirit_Spam

Rangers are using Expertise to be better Spirit Spammers too! OMG, NERF THEM!

Seriously, we've already found out that you started this whole thing just because you don't like Spirit Necros (why else would you persist in telling us why they must be nerfed). It's not overpowered, it's powerful. There's a difference.

Spirit spamming isn't broken. The synergy of protective spirits being energy batteries is. Managing energy with Soul Reaping is wildly more productive than managing it with channeling, GoLE or whatever else. It is certainly an order of magnitude more powerful than any other energy management technique I've ever seen or used myself. This makes it overpowered, especially considering it benefits a class that is already very useful in virtually any other capacity of PvP play.

Ranger spirit spam is nothing new; people have been Oathing spirits since before you or I knew what GW was. I'm not making the case that spirit spam itself is inherently broken. It's not the spirits or SR alone; it's the two of them in tandem.

GoLE takes no points and can be used by anyone. Channeling can be kept up indefinately with 3 points in inspiration and can be used by anyone. You try using SR at 0 or 3, you'd get nowhere. Necro's have to sink points into SR for it to do anything, especially considering there's so few skills in SR anyway. So yes, it's a bit better than some energy management around, so what? It should be, cause it actually has a significant attrib cost. If spirit spamming is that bad for you, go petition to nerf spirits before anet decides to nerfbat SR again. And you know anet is as subtle as a norn. Just look at magmus.

To note a couple of things:

1, I've run out of energy quite a few times playing N/Rt. This is due to the fact that A: there are powerful e-denial skills in the game (which is, of course, universal). B: if my spirits get interrupted (3 seconds cast time, so you can imagine that happens quite frequently) I'm left with a black hole in my energy pocket until something else dies. C: I don't know if I got that point across, but the other N/Rt and Rt/x players' spirits give me no energy.

Now, do I get energy when and if my team mate dies? Yes, but that means I have failed.

2, N/Mo will have to put their stock into minion spells, which again requires something to die. Enemy or friend, no matter, but it's still conditional. And minion spells, also, are ranged and long cast time, which means A: If it's a foe, you have to get to the corpse and cast the spell before he's resurrected, and B: If it's a friend, either you'll have to wait for the N to cast his spell (which might be critically impossible) or simply resurrect the ally anyway and maybe lose the minion batteries. N/Mo healer can be tricky to play unless you're running a veritable corpse battery, which requires you to sacrifice most of a player's usefulness to the purpose.

I don't deny that Soul Reaping is a far more versatile primary than Divine Favor. What I do question is whether whacking down on the primary would be a good way to solve the problem. It's already been done, and to be frank, I don't think it'll be revised... A-net is too scared about the monstrous outcry from the first nerf. And, there are loads of primaries that frankly make no sense. The entire game is a house of cards.

It's kinda sad when people never petition for positive change in a situation like this. I wouldn't mind a boost to Divine Favor of some kind.

And it sucks for backline emanagement (in GvG or HA at least; it's fine most other places).

Frankly, comparing SR from channeling implies you've never played one or both in the same areas I'm talking about. 8v8 Builds like these are almost always built around taking monks down-- monks moreso than any class are the obvious first targets and the builds that succed in doing so without much hassle are invariably the ones that people will play (they use monk unfriendly combinations or tactics--it's why IWAY, Spiritwat and Bloodspike have been so popular). Try recasting channeling every time it expires at 3 points, and see how it works for you. SR allows you the freedom to keep away from enemy pressure and keep moving--channeling requires you stand in or near it and keep still. Infinite energy is possible from channeling as well, but the process as a whole is usually much more risky than having a spirit + SR battery.

Still, I'm surprised that no one has gone for the obvious Achilles Heel to my argument: spirits can be used for monk emanagement too via Channeling. The only problem is that leaving them up usually benefits the other team a lot more than yours. I also can't put a rune into inspiration and it requires a slot on my skillbar to make (diminished) use of it. SR requires neither.

I know, I've been running at 0 for a while now. It kinda sucks!

No, it's better than all of them, at least in the chinese fire drill that we sometimes call HA. Like anything else I guess it's only really powerful under a select set of circumstances; my point is that those circumstances are easier to meet and more beneficial than any others. At least that I've seen.

But I'm getting a bit carried away. I'm not saying monks can't possibly outperform N/Rts, but it definately takes a lot more work, most of the time. I didn't really mean to compain this loudly about Spirits + SR, because I honestly haven't had too much trouble killing it (well... my teams haven't. I play monk ). SR from spirits is just something that's always kinda stuck in my craw, and from a prot + e-mangement standpoint, I can't find anything else that compares. That might be my own fault but I gotta calls 'em as I sees 'em. I don't really think they're any more likely to do anything about it now, since its been around for so long.

Honestly I think they leave it in because monk emanagement is more dependent on the player (it's why good monks are at such a premium; it takes practice to learn what and when to cast, and to not overheal, etc), whereas the necro energy battery is a more team-oriented tactic.

Before I say anything else, I want to stress the point that you're been ignoring like 3 week old bread:
Soul Reaping requires deaths. If you can't kill anything, Soul Reaping is useless.

Necromancers have a total of 4 energy management skills. Two of which are elites. As well, 2 of them require someone to die.

Spirits are not a problem since you only gain energy from your own spirits. Most N/Rt builds use spirits that cost 15-25 energy, and have 14 Soul Reaping. Even when their spirit dies, that's still a net loss of 1 energy at least. The only way to gain energy is to either wait or kill something.

More proof you have no clue what you're talking about.

[skill]Channeling[/skill]

Channeling only triggers on foes, so making a bunch of spirits would do absolutely nothing to help them.

I find it amusing how you keep saying that we've obviously never played certain forms of PvP, especially since you seem to think that Channeling is crappy.
Ever monked in HA? You tend to get swarmed by foes trying to kill you, and so channeling works perfectly.

So, yeah, lets remove healing from the game it's imba.










...Anet went through tons of testing with SR and came up with the best solution that they can without nerfing it to shit. SR is just as imba as any other primary. Don't like necros using it? Bring [skill]Backfire[/skill] if they are smart they won't cast with it on them and if they are stupid they will kill themselves. And BTW take a look at casting/energy costs/recharge times of almost every necro skill, you will understand (I hope) why the skills are the way they are.

Picking on the poor necro again, that's ok we will get our revenge when your character dies ahhh the power surge.

Are we reaching the point where pvp and pve have diverged so much that altering the skills for one messes up the other too much.
If you play 90% pve as I do what happens in pvp is irrelevant to me and messing up some of my skills because someone is doing something in pvp is a little ludicrous.

Why not make the local conditions in the pvp arenas variable like some of the tougher areas of pve.
That would modify any imbalances there without messing up the other game.

I have played all the main character types and find the prime attributes of each pretty good.

Some have more energy others use less or have skills that dont require any energy at all.

Mesmers are glorious because they can get free energy pretty much at will as long as there is a victim they can damage.

Necro skills on average take a little longer to cast and cost a little more energy than the average.
If I get shot down on that comment I will go check but its the impression I have from playing a necro through all the games.

The mm necro is most in need of energy because he has so much maintenance to keep his army going.
The necro may get a free energy return but the necro is also usually sacrificing health like crazy.

And you say I don't know what I'm talking about? Replacing spirits, or simply allowing them to die via the damage they take anyway does not require any killing. It doesn't require that you kill things, it simply requires that they die, since Spiritwat teams get them from dying pets as well (do you really think they bother healing those things?). Please.

... and they don't use any of them. Are you reading from beginning to end or are you just pasting random sentences up there? This isn't about skills being broken, and the very fact that Spirit + SR proponents leap to this apples to oranges comparison should tell anyone right away that the moldy bread is on your plate, not mine.

Which is irrelevant because most other teams won't, and you're no worse off either way. If they do use them said spirits typically don't grossly impede anything you're trying to do, so either way enemy spirits are already either of no conseqence, or even beneficial to you ("Hey check it out... EW is already up!").

I'll take a "net loss of 1 energy at least" over varying energy returns for monks (which may or may not be possible by virtue of terrain, ease of movement, pressure etc.) under the same circumstances. Yes, you may have to wait for a spirit to die, but it's protting your entire team while you do. If they attack and take them down, they give you energy. If they wait, they give you energy. My point here is that SR + Spirit synergy is not only more easily used but also a fair amount more versatile than the competition.

Which brings us to my favorite part:

I didn't mean to imply said monk would get the energy from his own spirits. Why would the phrase "You can leave them up" appear in that sentence if I was talking about my own team's (usually nonexistent) spirits? I'm obviously talking about enemy spirits, which seem to qualify as "foes" at least from a targeting perspective.

I don't think channeling is crappy, I just think that its use is a little more limited and dangerous. I might not have to load up as many points in inspiration as you would in SR, but I pay for it by A) not being able to rune the attribute B) Having to run an enchantment (that can obviously be stripped or interrupted--SR can't) and C) Trying to stay in a cluster of enemies.

Soul Reaping has an advantage wider than the attribute point disparity for that reason alone.

sigh... I held off as long as I could, and I know this isn't as "impressive" as it used to be, but I've got about 5600 fame, and all but probably 6 or 800 of it is from monking in HA. I haven't been around for everything (I started after the first GvG season and took several breaks), but I've seen a lot and I've tried a lot; most of it has failed spectacularly. I'm not saying that's always the game's fault, and I'm also not saying the Necro alone is imbalanced (so you guys can stop taking it so personally, geez ) or impossible to kill, but its powerful enough for me to be ornery about

I really, really didn't mean to get into this as deeply as I have, but I've developed certain forum habits that prevent me from dropping things like this, as I'm sure you all can see. But I'm not trying to OMG DESTROY the Necro or even SR in general, but I just think (and I don't think you're going to change my mind on this) the overall benefits to their enery management are easier to use and more powerful than anything in my arsenal as a PvP Monk. At least in 8v8. Where lots of stuff dies

/Notsigned

Soul reaping is all about powering up the necro when people are dying, MM's should be able to turn the favor of a close fight in PvE even if it means making use of dead allys, they need that.

Heh, are you serious? Where have you been for the past few months?

^ To be fair it's more like the last year or more.

There are two points I'd like to make:

1: A conditional form of e-management primary must be stronger than a non-conditional form.
2: A conditional form of e-management primary that has next to no linked skills must be even stronger.

Soul Reaping deserves to be the strongest e-management attribute in the game for these two reasons alone. Right now, discounting spirit and minion usage, it isn't.

If all energy was removed from spirits dying then Soul Reaping must see a substantial buff.

... And I'm not opposed to that. Drop SR from spirits and get rid of the whole 5 second thing (which was a dumb fix to begin with). I just don't think a class with so many other viable uses should be the as powerful as it is in the backline as well. Necromancers were already more versatile than Monks to begin with. I keep pointing out that Necros have plenty of other uses that wouldn't be compromised by dropping SR from spirits, but the way some people are arguing almost makes it sound like backlining is the Necro's only viable profession.

I honestly can't understand why the defense of Spirit Reaping has been as vigorous as it has been. Dropping Spirit Reaping preserves about 95% of the necromancer's overall functionality, and (should) remove from the PvP backline a class that--in my opinion at least--shouldn't be there.

The way it is at the moment in my eyes, Is perfect.

It's fine, leave it as it is.

Which would be easy: return it to its original mechanic in every way but the spirit thing...

Also lower the cost on bone fiends, they cost way too much for how damn fragile they are...

Anet should just delete the necromancer class.

Or maybe they should remove all primary attributes.

Here's an even crazier idea: we could possibly do our best to enjoy the game, rather than calling out for nerfs on every little thing that pisses us off.

Anybody remember the original Mario Kart? Those Bowser's Castle maps really got to me, but no one (that I know of) ever wrote to Nintendo requesting a nerfed copy of the game.

the problem is pvp you cant ignore things because you bash your head constantly on them.

/notsigned
Minion factory is lol² and relies on SR from allies. Killing it won't remove any imbalance from the game, it will only remove some more fun.

So what's the problem? Omg nerf paragons and remove Steady Stance from the game, zergway is winning games. Brainless people with a brainless build beat brainless people trying to play a good build or simply using a random build, nerfing the builds won't change that. As long as skill > soul reaping > zergway, there's really no problem.

Eh, fair 'nuff. I guess I don't do enough PvP to really feel any impact from this.

Solution: Restore SR to its original state, and remove benefits from spirits. Problem solved.

I think there has been enough discussion about SR now to actually give it a rest.
People have adapted to the way it is now and please leave it be for once.

Anet went through the testing, it's there game and they found a solution to fix it (SR was broken before) and have players agree with it.

And lol @ removing necros from the game.

I remember the good ol' days back when you could have 30+ minions going. Necros have had the nerf bat drop on them the hardest out of any class. To say I can't benefit from my friends dieing is crap, I am a necromancer to the core. If your problem lies with some pvp, N/Rt's then propose you nerf the skill in pvp and leave the rest of us alone. I pve only and for 1 am sick of all the bitching lil pvp kiddies that scream WHAAA I can't beat this build so nerf it. FACT: PVP consists of 1/4 or less of the community, and those of us on forums are less than that. In short BACK OFF THE NECRO'S in pve we have suffered enough.

I can understand class loyalty (and I"m not thrilled with the changes they've made to SR either) but how does removing spirit reaping damage PvE functionality? Is there some killer spirit-reaping farming build I haven't seen yet? It sure seems to me like most of the folks arguing with me here aren't dedicated PvPers, yet they're arguing against what strikes me as a strictly PvP mechanic change.

I am proposing we "nerf [Spirit Reaping] in pvp and leave the rest," since I haven't observed PvE necros to be dependent on spirits for energy. My complaints are strictly limited to the power gained from backlining in an 8v8 PvP environment, where lots of things die and usually in rapid succession. If you don't PvP that's all well and good, but don't pretend I'm just as ignorant about what's on the other side of the fence as you seem to be. I'll be the first to admit I'm hardly a diehard PvE'er, but recognizing Spirit Reaping as a PvP phenomenon shouldn't require a godlike grasp of both PvE and PvP. So I guess my question is... if they removed SR from spirits, how much would it actually hurt you in PvE? It's an honest question: I don't play Necro in PvE. I tried, but it wasn't my thing.

Also, (what's the deal with the Necros here? Have you all got martyr complexes or what?) Necros have not been nerfed harder than "any class," and the suggestion that they have been is ignorant and myopic. I've watched ANet destroy energy management techniques for monks that were already inferior to Spirit Reaping. Remember how they nerfed GoLE + ZB at the same time? or how they took a wrecking ball to the entire dual smite build rather than one or two key skills? Sure, they were powerful, but as emanagement teqniques, only the latter of those two was actually superior to Spirit Reaping. I don't mind that they nerfed Glyph + ZB, but I do mind that they left a stronger combination untouched. I'm not necessarily making the case that monks have been nerfed harder (could you imagine a Divine Favor nerf? ); rather my point is that we've all taken our licks (and gotten our buffs) and Necros aren't horribly marginalized right now because of the changes ANet has made to them or other classes. Monks are.

My guess is that they're leaving Spirit Reaping in the game because it's more dependent on team tactics rather than the individual. Glyph + ZB or Dual smite was too powerful on one character's bar, but Spirit Reaping really only works if the rest of the team is doing its job. C'mon guys, I'm meeting you halfway here. There's no need to act like I'm trying to render your class absolutely useless (or, for that matter, even make it as useless as mine ), and I'm hardly complaining about spiritwat being impossible to beat. Just read the posts. I promise they make sense.

You write so much

But you don't say anything new

When the universe winds down

And you stand on the white cliffs of Dover

Watching humanity destroy itself

You will still care about SRs power balance

Excuse me, but I've had a lot more to say than "Leave them alone they've been nerfed enough." My points are perfectly valid and thoroughly explained. The fact that I have to keep reiterating them is not my fault. For all the arguing people have done with me, I've seen relatively few attempts to explain why Spirit Reaping isn't broken from someone who has anything resembling a fair amount of experience with both Spirit Reaping and "traditional" monk backlines. For the most part, people are just hurling "OMG THEY ALREADY NERFED SR!" or "OMG WHY THE NECRO HATE?!" at me without a terrible amount of explanation.

Look, I'm not implicitly agreeing with the OP's solutions, and I'm not determined that ANet needs to nerf this--I've put up with spirit reaping long enough and for all the complaining I've done about it, I don't find Spiritwat particularly hard to beat--I'm just cranky (here we go again with the repeating myself) that I'm marginalized by a character class that is already much more diverse than the Monk. I don't understand why the people here seem to be laboring under the impression that dropping SR from spirits would make necros useless.

It's "Soul Reaping" not "Spirit Reaping".

Yes, soul reaping is a powerful energy management attribute. Most primary attributes are. With the exception of mesmers and warriors, there is not a one class that does not use it's primary att in some way to reduce energy used. Rits have weapon spells that last longer, reducing the need to cast them. Even Monks have to heal less often with a high divine favor, because their skills heal for so much more.

I have played as both a necro and a monk, have a fair amount of experience with each, and can tell you that your arguments aren't all that good. Monks are the kings of healing, and they have good energy management skills of their own. Essence bond is rather nice, if your tank knows how to gain aggro well. Divine Favor makes your heals more powerful than any other class. Defender's Zeal is great, particularly in HM.

Trust me, the Soul Reaping nerf has gone far enough. Generally, enemies die fast enough that a necro often doesn't have the chance to eat every soul in the area, meaning they sometimes can't use their huge array of high-energy skills.

Quit complaining about Soul Reaping. You don't have enough experience yourself to be arguing for another nerf.

Ok, I do remember the days of running a minion factory in HA. I do not pvp anymore as it infuriates me. more skills in pve get nerfed because of pvp. I understand that the spirit reaping team is a good build, almost an exploit. But previous to the n/rt, was the teams of touchy rangers and bunny thumpers. Also take having hordes of minnions to having at most 10. Up the casting cost of most of my skills.

Why not just nerf out shadow form and arcane echo, I mean wouldn't a eternal SF sin stand there looking at all those necros and spirits laughing cause they can't kill him?

Let's nerf essence bond/balths spirit, i mean with life bond that is an eternal emanagment source.

The bottom line is :

YOU CAN NOT BEAT THE BUILD, SO THERFORE IT MUST BE NERFED,
IT IS TOO POWERFUL. THIS IS CRAP. BACK OFF NECROS. I HAVE NEVER , NOT 1 TIME ASKED FOR ANY NERF ON ANY CLASS. FIND ITS WEAKNESS AND EXPLOIT IT OR BE SILENT.


The rule of honor:

Anyone that invokes the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Any man that needs this law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant,"If I live, I will kill you. If I die you are forgiven." Such is the way of honor.

translation:
Any player that invokes the wrath of the nerf bat against his fellow player either can't run the build or can't beat it, and in either case is a poor player. For the good player will see the weakness in a "special team build" and carry its counter. Even if the team still out plays you, you say,"thanks for the match." or have no honor. your choice.

I use the term to distinguish between Soul Reaping in general, and the fact that Soul Reaping applies to spirits. I created the distinction to make clear that I don't feel Soul Reaping needs a complete rework--simply one aspect of it.

It (aside possibly from Expertise) is the best primary attribute in the game, and that's kind of my point. The principle of "Game Balance" is the idea that we can create a skillset where any one attribute or skillset doesn't have a wide superiority over the others. I won't pretend to know what will make such a level playing field possible (or if it even is possible), but I think this would be a good place to start.

..which is why the wide majority of people (okay, in HA at least) don't use them to heal anymore, right? Any such "king of healing" would surely also be powerful there. I'm not saying Monks don't make a good account for themselves as a class, but we certainly can't claim to be "kings" of the backline.

Okay, this is the part where we need to realize (despite the fact that I've pointed this out a trillion times already) that I'm talking about PvP. All three of these examples--Divine Favor, Defender's Zeal, and Essence Bond--are crap in about 99% of practical PvP applications. Comparing DF to SR is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Mclaren F1.

The real issue here (made obvious by the combination of you claiming to be "experienced" with playing monk, then in the next breath suggesting horrible emanagement options--all three of which are wildly inferior to Spirit Reaping), I suspect, is whether the game should be balanced around PvP or PvE. I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to pick sides, but as a general rule it's fairly easy to run pretty much whatever you want in PvE, and you'll manage somehow. Even so, I'd really like to hear how a Spirit Reaping nerf would impinge Necromancer PvE functionality. The persistence of PvE based arguments against my points would usually imply a strong opinion on those issues.

You tell me my "arguments aren't good" and then turn around and posit PvE examples as a solution to a complaint about PvP balance?

I'm arguing that:

• SR is better than DF by a wide margin,
• Does not require an enchantment be maintained,
• SR allows a relative ease of movement, can be runed (obviously) unlike /Me enenrgy management options,
• Spirit Reaping benefits a class already wildly more useful than the Monk (if you ever want me to stop repeating this, you could start by telling me why it doesn't) in PvP,
  and that
• At the very least, Monks and Necros should be on equal footing as PvP backline characters.

If you're going to tell me those aren't good arguments, respond to them within the context I'm raising them. Don't tell me that Defenders Zeal is "Good especially in HM" when PvE isn't the issue. Some skills (like GoLE or just looking at the screen) are fine enough for PvE use; but many are impractical at best in PvP.

Well, I'm not saying that Soul Reaping is always more effective than everything else; I'm just saying that the conditions under which it excels are generally very easily met in 8v8 PvP; in PvE it doesn't matter so much because if that many enemies die off that fast to begin with, chances are your huge array of high-energy skills weren't especially needed.

Interesting theory. Just out of curiousity, how did you find out how much experience I have? I've got 5600 fame, but I admit I haven't PvE'd much. I have a grand total of one maxed title, but I feel the fact that about 5000 of my fame has been earned in the backline gives me some manner of perspective on PvP backline balance. Not to imply I know what's best, but as long as my opponents insist on intoning that I don't know what I'm talking about, I've gotta defend myself somehow. I don't want anyone to think I'm saying "I'm right because I have 5600 fame," it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I certainly don't want to have to yank my boot out of my mouth when someone who has more disagrees. Let's try to focus less on how much we've played and more on the actual arguments and their relevance and accuracy?

Nevertheless, I would have thought it was obvious by now that I don't intend on ceasing my remarks about Spirit Reaping; and if you really think that telling me monks have good energy management in PvE is going to change my mind, you've got another thing coming.

And zamial, please pay attention to what I'm saying. I haven't said or suggested anywhere that spiritwat was a good build, and I've repeatedly made clear the fact that it's not impossible to beat and doesn't automatically outperfom the competition in all possible scenarios. Also, touch rangers have never (to my knowledge) been meta anywhere other than AB; if they get run in 8v8, it's usually as a joke.

I apologize if i seemed a bit harsh before but this is the response you were asking to get. Instead of asking for a nerf, why not ask for buffs or the rewording of skills for balance play?

1 that sticks in my mind is frozen soil. If it is down a minion master can't make minions so why should a rit be able to make spirits?

Why does a rit/ anyone not drop an item the are holding if knocked down?


Why can't a weapon spell be disenchanted?

There is alot more the community could be asking to buff instead of nerf, just food for thought.

All in all, it is the ritulist class that needs modded or a counter too.

Because a ritualist isn't resurrecting people. A ritualist is binding spirits to the world. Binding, not resurrecting.

Could say the same for weapons, but that's not the case.

Because it's not an enchantment.

Please no, I'm still annoyed at the temporary Exhaustion nerf.

If we were overpowered there would be an actual demand for us in groups in PvE.

Guess what?

There isn't.

Guess what else?

PvE is the majority. Do you realize that if you start nerfing rits in PvP again, those nerfs carry on to PvE?

Also, a word on soul reaping: if you nerf it's gain from spirits you will damage the Spiritway team build, which is a build that is very useful for new players to learn more about HA and to gain fame, because the elitist, discriminatory HA player base tends to refuse people below a certain threshold. Unless you actually WANT to ensure there are no newcomers to HA? Because cutting off sources of experience and fame points is essentially telling new players 'Sorry, you aren't allowed here.' The HA Elitists will do the rest.

Are you still campaigning to nerf SR? Geez, I look in after a few days, and well, I'm surprised this has remained open so long. But anyway...

1. SR is better than DF by a wide margin
First, so what? I'd gladly trade strength for just about any other primary in the game. Does that mean that both SR and DF should be nerfed? Second, if SR is so ungodly good, why isn't every caster class in the game a N/X? Why are there monks at all, when obviously you could go a N/Mo for healing with unlimited energy? Why are there Mes, eles? Thirdly, a necro has to put about a third of their attrib points into it for it to do anything. Are you saying that for such an investment we shouldn't get any benefit from it? How much passive energy do you think DF is worth? Or expertise?

2. Does not require an enchantment be maintained
True. But you forget that it's often beyond the necro's control when they get energy, and when they don't due to the timer. Imagine if DF was on a timer, you only get a DF bonus every 3 minute or something. Deaths are hard to control as opposed to channelling where you know and have some control over when you get your energy. And you can bet that most will be on a N/Rt like white on rice as soon as the spirits drop.

3. SR allows a relative ease of movement, can be runed (obviously) unlike /Me enenrgy management options
A +1 to SR isn't exactly that big a deal considering we're already sinking 10+ points into the attrib anyway. Especially since we carry practically no other skills for it. So we are in fact sinking a third of our points into something purely for passive effect. And who do you think can keep people alive longer, a runed up monk, or a runed up necro. Yes, SR allows free movement. But are you saying that's unfair since we don't have to stop to cast for energy management? You do realise that a monk can live off 1/4 cast spells, but if I want to spirit spam I'm sitting there long enough to cop eviserate in the face and then an interrupt while I'm helpless? And unable to kite? You can almost charge cripslash from scratch in the time it takes to lay a spirit. A monk with channeling can kite like crazy and still keep up under heavy pressure teams. So who's got free movement?

4. Spirit Reaping benefits a class already wildly more useful than the Monk (if you ever want me to stop repeating this, you could start by telling me why it doesn't) in PvP,
If necro's as a class are so godly, why isn't every team composed of necro casters? You think HA is full of IV spike teams or something? Yeah, N/Rt can put down some good healing, and some condition removal but have pretty much no hex removal. Unlike monks. Most necro skills are slow or energy intensive. Unlike the mass of 5en 1/4 cast monk spells. And if you actually take down the spirits, we're pretty much helpless. You ever tried playing spiritway when your opponents have NR, QZ and energising down? And you got a train of warrs and assass locked on your rear? Or to stand there and look on while they pull out unnatural sig, banishing or any form of AoE at all? Spiritway is pretty much all or nothing. Yeah, we spank most of the noob teams. But any experienced or prepared team will wipe us pretty much 100%. I'd hardly call that overpowered.

As for monks being equal to necro's, you can't compare apple to oranges. Team roles are different. That'd be like saying monks should be nerfed since prot makes a mockery of warriors. Prot monk > warrior, so it's imbalanced, right? Roles are different. If you're saying a N/Mo is more useful than a Mo/N than maybe you can compare. But as is, it's like you're saying a N/Rt is more useful than a Mo/Rt. In which case I'd agree. Mainly cause a monks better off being a specialist, rather than crazy mixes of secondaries.

Anyway, does that answer some of your arguments? Not even mentioning the who lot of other reasons for not nerfing. I won't even touch the whole "I don't care about pve" bit.

What I was trying to say is 95% of every skill/spell in the game has a way to counter it or remove it, hence "balance". You don't think it is unfair that rit spirits can't be stopped by any means, that the weapon spells can only be removed by time, and that ashes well see the weapon spells.????? short of an interrupt?

The ugly truth: bottom line is rits are over powered not the necros. I am not proposing a nerf to a specific class but a few ways to add balance by buffing other skills.

Even shadow form can be removed.

If I where to shove you to the ground and you were holding, say a small box wouldn't you drop it to catch yourself? of course you would. This would affect ALL PLAYERS, that need to carry an item, like in missions/GvG. It would affect rits more than others but rits are way out of the realm of balance.

He didn't say, "I don't care about pve," he said, "How would this affect PvE at all?"

And...would it? Does anyone here power their N/Rt healers with a full team of N/Rt spirit summoners? I've never seen such a build in PvE, ever. So, if it doesn't hurt PvE...why are people disagreeing in the first place?

I do agree that some kind of change has to be made to it, b/c SR really sucks now. It shouldn't be nerfed it should be buffed to how it was before. Alternatively, it could be made into a pve aura (the old school SR not the nerfed one) which you would equip in a skill slot and it would act like a pet, sucking up souls of recently killed creatures Then the soul reaping att could be changed into something totally different.