melee para?
blkhawk153
i've heard there were effective P/W builds using sword/shield or axe/shield. is this true? how does it work?
Cowboy Nastyman
yes its true, I have used axe to great effect including getting my legendary vanquisher. the keys to it are aggressive refrain or soldiers fury, burning refrain theyre on fire and go for the eyes, this allows you to keep a mob burning almost non stop and does great damage. throw in a few axe attacks, i prefer dismember and agonizing and you have a very strong melee.
Mr. Fahrenheit
I myself use [skill]Soldier's Fury[/skill]+[skill]Natural Temper[/skill] with a hammer.
LightningHell
Just to throw this in, but...
...Generally you'd function better with a spear.
But hey, it's PvE.
...Generally you'd function better with a spear.
But hey, it's PvE.
zwei2stein
I would consult master of damage, hes out there to compare such stuff.
ToF axe tank is workable, but not really that good.
Spear is ranged, has very good damage and there is just no reason to go to meele unless you wanna tank, in which case ... fail.
ToF axe tank is workable, but not really that good.
Spear is ranged, has very good damage and there is just no reason to go to meele unless you wanna tank, in which case ... fail.
Valeria
the way male paragorns are wielding melee weapons is reason enough to use hammers and swords. 
Chrono Re delle Ere
haha yea they look nice 
Well but I love spears, and I have a damn hot warrior too so I don't have any necessity to use a melee para
Well but I love spears, and I have a damn hot warrior too so I don't have any necessity to use a melee para
blkhawk153
so would u guys agree that melee wars > melee paras?
Racthoh
I'll say this; a warrior that doesn't have 14-16 weapon is a wasted slot. So a paragon with at most 12 is not worth any spot in my party.
Johnny Madhouse
The real damage from a ToF tank is not from the weapon the para is holding, rather it's the constant burning they apply. Here's a hero build I use on Morgahn. It's a P/D build, as scythes can hit multiple targets, raising damage output even more.
OQqjYmocaOc/WsFuHnuPxCAfMA
Another option is an axe paragon for the shield and deep wound ability, if you prefer.
This makes an excellent hero build. Because everything around the para is constantly on fire, and because of the hero spamming GFTE for energy and flame triggering and using "They're on Fire", Party damage can be reduced by up to 37% with 16 leadership.
Basically, I don't even use warrior heroes anymore, as the only enemy that cannot be set on fire are the Destroyers and they're easier to kill with a curses necro anyway while my massive blinding ranger keeps them from actually hurting me.
The only location in which this build will not work is in any location with a 4-man party size. 6-man is slightly ineffiecient, but can be done. In 8-man teams, this build is better than a warrior for tanking 95% of the time.
OQqjYmocaOc/WsFuHnuPxCAfMA
Another option is an axe paragon for the shield and deep wound ability, if you prefer.
This makes an excellent hero build. Because everything around the para is constantly on fire, and because of the hero spamming GFTE for energy and flame triggering and using "They're on Fire", Party damage can be reduced by up to 37% with 16 leadership.
Basically, I don't even use warrior heroes anymore, as the only enemy that cannot be set on fire are the Destroyers and they're easier to kill with a curses necro anyway while my massive blinding ranger keeps them from actually hurting me.
The only location in which this build will not work is in any location with a 4-man party size. 6-man is slightly ineffiecient, but can be done. In 8-man teams, this build is better than a warrior for tanking 95% of the time.
Racthoh
I can just bring a warrior and throw the Blazing Finale on it and accomplish the same thing, and have a higher weapon spec.
If you play that character as your only melee, mobs are going to throw all of their physical shutdown on you unless they spot a caster using a melee +5e weapon (Blurred on monk!). Any miss hexes, Soothing Images, blind, snares just wreck you something fierce unless they're removed ASAP. Otherwise all of your passive defensives are useless. You come up to a target with a block stance? Have to walk to the next target if you want to keep your adrenaline up to shout, and the other 7 members of your party have to change their position to stay in your bubble to get the effects of your shouts.
Let's compare that to a spear. I can change targets just before the current target expires so I don't miss a beat on my adrenaline gain. I'm targetted usually last because of my weapon + health + armour level, but still subject to blind/miss hexes but only after the targets with a melee weapon. Because I can attack from a range, I can easily get the entire party affected by my shouts without missing an attack.
I have no clue what the attraction is of a melee paragon, when they can perform their duties far better from range.
If you play that character as your only melee, mobs are going to throw all of their physical shutdown on you unless they spot a caster using a melee +5e weapon (Blurred on monk!). Any miss hexes, Soothing Images, blind, snares just wreck you something fierce unless they're removed ASAP. Otherwise all of your passive defensives are useless. You come up to a target with a block stance? Have to walk to the next target if you want to keep your adrenaline up to shout, and the other 7 members of your party have to change their position to stay in your bubble to get the effects of your shouts.
Let's compare that to a spear. I can change targets just before the current target expires so I don't miss a beat on my adrenaline gain. I'm targetted usually last because of my weapon + health + armour level, but still subject to blind/miss hexes but only after the targets with a melee weapon. Because I can attack from a range, I can easily get the entire party affected by my shouts without missing an attack.
I have no clue what the attraction is of a melee paragon, when they can perform their duties far better from range.
Cowboy Nastyman
maybe because its fun yet still very effective?
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman
maybe because its fun yet still very effective?
Clearly there are some different definitions of 'effective' going around.
Trx
Assuming we are talking about PvE here, just play whatever you want. Some people seem to think you have to run at 100% efficiency all the time and forget about the 'fun' part. A ToF tank might not be as good as a warrior for melee or a spear para for party support but its not completely useless either if used right.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Trx
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Unless Duncan was changed from when I did it with my paragon, I don't recall him using any forms of shutdown. I can stand in front of casters with my paragon too if I wanted to, and kite out of the disco ball in this instance. It's also not like Slaver's is very difficult. You can hero/hench it with a variety of professions.|
people seem to think you have to run at 100% efficiency all the time and forget about the 'fun' part.
The problem I have is that from reading these boards is that a good majority of players have no idea how to play the paragon profession at any sort of efficiency. They'll see a thread promoting this ToF tank, all of the praise it receives, but then when they start to hit the harder areas and getting hit with shutdown they wonder why their amazing build isn't working anymore. At which point they'll search the boards more and find a build that does what they need for those areas, which in most cases is some overly defensive build with 0 spear mastery.
Trx
True, its more a gimmick type build you can use when you want to stick to your paragon to work on titles for example but need a change from spear chucking all the time.
Cowboy Nastyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
And not getting overloaded on shutdown. GW:EN has so much physical hate it's not even funny.
The problem I have is that from reading these boards is that a good majority of players have no idea how to play the paragon profession at any sort of efficiency. They'll see a thread promoting this ToF tank, all of the praise it receives, but then when they start to hit the harder areas and getting hit with shutdown they wonder why their amazing build isn't working anymore. At which point they'll search the boards more and find a build that does what they need for those areas, which in most cases is some overly defensive build with 0 spear mastery. i had no problems with melee shutdown anywhere including all of hard mode, so trying to say a melee para can't handle all the "melee shutdown" really doesn't hold up. my "inefficient melee para" going toe to toe with duncan. I really don't care that some elitist people on these boards think that a spear para is supposedly better, my point is a melee para can do it all too and is a lot of fun to play.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman
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Firstly, there is Blazing Finale. This is going to trigger whenever a shout ends on you. The build as far as I understand revolves around mashing Go For The Eyes! once it fills up so everything around you burns. All this skill requires is a body to function, one that is attacking with a weapon obviously. There is no advantage to using it on yourself compared to someone who is naturally in the fray.
The other culprit is Go For The Eyes!. Your typical PvE group is going to have one physical that can soak damage, so in this case if the melee paragon is the only physical the critical +% is basically a waste. At most a 12 specced axe or sword, nothing too scary. Axe and sword also have no good energy attack skills that you could use so all you're doing is giving hope that a random auto-attack gets the critical hit for some extra damage. And since you're going to be hitting GftE! roughly every 3 seconds to keep the burning on, you are constantly taking a strike of adrenaline from your other pools meaning you attack skills are filling at a slower pace. There is a reason why Whirling Axe is so very bad, even if the disable mechanism was removed.
In this same situation had you been using a typical melee profession there is no loss of efficiency. You can use your GftE! with an energy attack like Spear of Lightning; a critical hit on a skill with 25% AP is really nice, even more so on a sundering critical. The warrior/assassin/dervish echoed with Blazing Finale attacks as normal, and triggers the AoE burning without any effects on his own adrenaline pools.
Now, when we add shutdown into the equation, specifically melee shutdown as Ward Melee is far more common than Shield's Up! as an example you can see the picture a lot better. You're missing while you swing away at a target in a ward, I could be building adrenaline so when the melee does finally land a blow I've already built a GftE! to begin the burning. A snare on our melee wrecks both of us and destroys the defense and offense of the build entirely, which right away is enough for me to say I don't want to use this build ever.
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I really don't care that some elitist people on these boards think that a spear para is supposedly better, my point is a melee para can do it all too and is a lot of fun to play.
Can it? Sure. Better? Never. Just as well? Not if I were to put that finale on a melee. The damage with your weapon will not be as good as someone who was meant to use it, and the burning triggers would be more frequent when the shouter is less suspectable to shutdown. I can't possibly think of a reason other than 'it's fun' that would want to make me ditch the spear.
ayame ftw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
I'll say this; a warrior that doesn't have 14-16 weapon is a wasted slot. So a paragon with at most 12 is not worth any spot in my party.
I dont know about u, but when i have a warrior in my team he is a tank and doesn’t have many skills in his sword/hammer/axe attribute they rather max out strength and tactic’s. But I do agree that a paragon should stay close to the people he wants to boost, so if he uses shouts that are beneficial for the casters, then he should use a spear and attack from a ranged postion, if his shouts are more focused on melee, then I think it wouldn’t hurt to fight together in the front with the warriors.
Squishy ftw
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
I dont know about u, but when i have a warrior in my team he is a tank and doesn’t have many skills in his sword/hammer/axe attribute they rather max out strength and tactic’s.
I hope you only play in doa or slaver's then because in almost all other PvE areas a Tank is nothing more than a serious waste of a very high dps char.
ayame ftw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy ftw
I hope you only play in doa or slaver's then because in almost all other PvE areas a Tank is nothing more than a serious waste of a very high dps char.
If i play pve, i only have a warrior in my team if i need a tank, else i don’t even bother inviting a warror…
If I want dmg I rather chose for ele’s, necro, rangers they can do damage and give more support a warrior ever can except for some shouts
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
If i play pve, i only have a warrior in my team if i need a tank, else i don’t even bother inviting a warror…
If I want dmg I rather chose for ele’s, necro, rangers they can do damage and give more support a warrior ever can except for some shouts A Warrior also has a reputation of dealing the highest single target damage of all classes. ayame ftw
Even if a warrior would do the most single target damage (witch i doubt btw). I think its more useful to use AOE damage (u will probly tell me that a warrior can do AOE dmg, but that’s realy limited if u compaire that with what a ele can do). Also a warrior needs to build adrenalin to do his most powerful attacks. Most of the times while the warrior is charging up his skills with adrenalin, my ele’s have already killed 85% of the enemies. If u are going to tell me that warriors are good for the deep wound then u can replace them by the pve skill: “finish him” witch causes deep wound…
So imo, warriors are overrated… the only reason u see so many warriors is because most people want to swing a weapon and bash on things…
glountz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
Even if a warrior would do the most single target damage (witch i doubt btw). I think its more useful to use AOE damage (u will probly tell me that a warrior can do AOE dmg, but that’s realy limited if u compaire that with what a ele can do). Also a warrior needs to build adrenalin to do his most powerful attacks. Most of the times while the warrior is charging up his skills with adrenalin, my ele’s have already killed 85% of the enemies. If u are going to tell me that warriors are good for the deep wound then u can replace them by the pve skill: “finish him” witch causes deep wound…
So imo, warriors are overrated… the only reason u see so many warriors is because most people want to swing a weapon and bash on things… ............ You've a master of damage on Nameless Isle. 1) Bring any single target damage build you want on your ele and bash MoDamage. 2)Then bring a Dragon Slasher under For Good Justice and Flail (and even Save Yourselves!) kill MoD. 3)Compare DPS. 4)Delete you ele and make a warrior.
Koning
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
Even if a warrior would do the most single target damage (witch i doubt btw). I think its more useful to use AOE damage (u will probly tell me that a warrior can do AOE dmg, but that’s realy limited if u compaire that with what a ele can do). Also a warrior needs to build adrenalin to do his most powerful attacks. Most of the times while the warrior is charging up his skills with adrenalin, my ele’s have already killed 85% of the enemies. If u are going to tell me that warriors are good for the deep wound then u can replace them by the pve skill: “finish him” witch causes deep wound…
So imo, warriors are overrated… the only reason u see so many warriors is because most people want to swing a weapon and bash on things… Plz stop having that tone where you think you know everything. You probably haven't played warrior before. I kill targets before the ele's actually came in position to nuke... Oh add enraging charge to NR 2 (maybe even sever+gash), and add NR 5: remove yourself from this thread.
ayame ftw
Im not saying a warrior has low dps… im trying to see the usefulness of a warrior in pve over ele’s, necro’s, ect…
And no I don’t know everything I just want to give my opinion; if u guys think that 4 warriors in a pve group will kill everything as effectively as 4 ele’s would, be my guest…but I have never seen anyone take more then 2 warriors in a pve group. In pvp I can see the use of a warrior as damage character. In a balanced team with 2 mesmers that shutdown the monks a warrior that goes off target can be very dangerous… Even a team full of warriors with pets and stuff… will kill u really fast
RhanoctJocosa
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Originally Posted by ayame ftw
Im not saying a warrior has low dps… im trying to see the usefulness of a warrior in pve over ele’s, necro’s, ect…
And no I don’t know everything I just want to give my opinion; if u guys think that 4 warriors in a pve group will kill everything as effectively as 4 ele’s would, be my guest…but I have never seen anyone take more then 2 warriors in a pve group. In pvp I can see the use of a warrior as damage character. In a balanced team with 2 mesmers that shutdown the monks a warrior that goes off target can be very dangerous… Even a team full of warriors with pets and stuff… will kill u really fast 4 Warriors will do more damage in both PvE and PvP.
yesitsrob
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
Im not saying a warrior has low dps… im trying to see the usefulness of a warrior in pve over ele’s, necro’s, ect…
And no I don’t know everything I just want to give my opinion; if u guys think that 4 warriors in a pve group will kill everything as effectively as 4 ele’s would, be my guest…but I have never seen anyone take more then 2 warriors in a pve group. In pvp I can see the use of a warrior as damage character. In a balanced team with 2 mesmers that shutdown the monks a warrior that goes off target can be very dangerous… Even a team full of warriors with pets and stuff… will kill u really fast Warriors do have the highest single target DPS with the correct build (which would be something based on Dragonslash, IAS + FGJ), doubting that is moronic to be brutally honest. They also have the strongest raw damage, and if you really need AoE you can bring a splinter bitch along. While I don't have many screens of multiple warriors clearing an area faster than eles could ever dream of doing. Do have one of 5 (i think) physicals doing Foundry of Failed Creations in 57 minutes on this forum somewhere. Conquering FoW in 1 hour 30, and Urgoz in 1 hour 24 (including afks on this one). Eles for damage is the horrible incorrectness that 99% of PVE players believe in - when really, the size of the groups have to be absolutely huge for them to really be more appropriate damage - and generally with huge groups you have to hold aggro etc with that many squishies and that takes for bloody ever itself. Obviously necros shut things down too and they offer solid defense as well as ok damage so same doesn't apply to them. That said the point of this thread is melee paragons, which I don't care to think about much... maybe something with focussed anger, likely not.
Squishy ftw
To get back on topic, I can think of some fun to play P/W builds using sword/axe/hammer. As you can play around with some other stances with the use of agressive refrain. Perhaps some e-heavy build with Warrior's endurance, or something with Auspiciaus parry.
I think it could be fun to play but if it'll be effective.. Also the damage will be rather low as your weapon attribute can be 12 at max.
nunix
Well.. you could always go P/A, slip on your Thunderfist Knuckles, and go tearing around Frontis Irontoe's lair. ;D
One thing to keep in mind is you CAN make your character do just about anything you want.. but maybe it's more effective in some situations than others. Casual
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy ftw
I hope you only play in doa or slaver's then because in almost all other PvE areas a Tank is nothing more than a serious waste of a very high dps char.
I have very limited knowledge about DoA apart from really specific solo farm runs so I won't comment on that.
For slaver's exile, until GW:EN gets HM, a tank is a wasted slot. Unless you consider a DSlasher with a couple of defensive skills a tank. It is possible to make working or decent Para builds without a spear. You 'll just have to accept that it's not optimal. The fun factor can be up there, but it is a different matter. The best non spear paragon build I've seen so far is the P/R barrage para designed to squeeze into a regular B/P group. Even then, it's still somewhat inferior to a R/P using roughly he same build and lack of Rt secondary for splinter weapon doesn't help either.
Arkantos
A tank is a wasted slot in any area. Having a warrior pre-protted to run into aggro and hold it while dealing damage is much better then a warrior who has most of his skills dedicated to stand and hold aggro doing little to no damage.
On topic, a melee paragon isn't going to be an uber fail build. As long as it somewhat deals damage and can somewhat stay alive, run it, it's PvE. blkhawk153
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Originally Posted by yesitsrob
Warriors do have the highest single target DPS with the correct build (which would be something based on Dragonslash, IAS + FGJ), doubting that is moronic to be brutally honest. They also have the strongest raw damage, and if you really need AoE you can bring a splinter bitch along.
pretty sure sins do more dps
Darkpower Alchemist
A sin with a solid build, like a SP/Tiger's Fury sin can kill in a maximum of 6-8 seconds. A FGJ! Dragonslasher kills in 9-11 seconds. A FGJ!/Eviscerate/Exec/Agonizing warrior kills in roughly 8-10 seconds. The spike of the sin has more to do with getting all the moves to hit than DPS in the natural form. Where the warriors gave heavy damage over the full duration of the test, while the assassin gave heavy damage mostly during its arranged attack sequence.
These numbers came from my testing of the Master of Damage on Thursday. The way an ele attacks would depend on how DPS would be calculated, yet look at it in the sin's sense of attacking. Once you pop off the money hits what does it do? Wand stuff? What does a warrior do when it pops off its money attacks? Move to the next target and pop of another set of attacks of the same fashion, due to adrenaline gained in its last attack chain. Do you see the difference in DPS output and Spike damage output? That is what you compare when you try to compare an ele/sin to a warrior/Dervish/melee based other. I believe a spear paragon falls slightly slower in DPS than a warrior due to spear flight time. However, more on topic, their is no way a melee paragon would outdamage a warrior using the same weapon. It is a poor imitation of the genuine article. Specific build purposes aside, these are the facts. That's like saying a Thumper does more DPS than a hammer warrior when the fact is that the warrior, given the same mechanics, if not the same skills, would overpower a thumper easily. The reason the thumper is more accepted is because the thumper uses energy skills better, and that's it. Comparing a substitute to the real McCoy is a disservice to both. Don't do it.
iridescentfyre
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayame ftw
Even if a warrior would do the most single target damage (witch i doubt btw). I think its more useful to use AOE damage (u will probly tell me that a warrior can do AOE dmg, but that’s realy limited if u compaire that with what a ele can do). Also a warrior needs to build adrenalin to do his most powerful attacks. Most of the times while the warrior is charging up his skills with adrenalin, my ele’s have already killed 85% of the enemies. If u are going to tell me that warriors are good for the deep wound then u can replace them by the pve skill: “finish him” witch causes deep wound…
So imo, warriors are overrated… Dragon Slash with base 15-22 damage +42 + Conjure hitting once every 0.88 seconds is a lot of DPS. And don't bother reiterating the adrenaline building part of your argument, with the correct build you can get 10 strikes of adrenaline in two or three sword swings. |
