It's like WoW, but ...

I fully agree with the first point so I am excited for persistence. To get of topic slightly I think that adding a more social atmosphere to regions of the game is great, particularly when there is danger involved. I'm a big fan of open pvp systems. There is nothing really like being on edge all the time while just out killing stuff, or fighting over optimal zones. I don't think its entirely popular because there are some serious faults to it, but adding a sense of unpredictability and danger does a lot to enhance gameplay.

I'm not against adding more incentive for time. The important thing is once you hit level 20, do the attribute quests and spend a little time getting collector weapons you're as strong as your going to get. Anything after that which increases strength of a character I don't like. Rewards for pure vanity aren't nearly as strong as rewards for increased power, but adding those kinds of rewards bring in more problems then they're worth.

As for a solution I'm not really sure. As you said the rewarded with cool looking gear works for me but not for others. My answer is generally make the game more fun in its own right, just like pvp is fun in its own right. Beyond all of those comments though, which I think really work but are beside the point, looking cool rewards are the only ones I can really endorse.

I think what ANet is looking to do in GW2 is make a game with a large or infinite strength reward system, but are trying to attack its problems individually. Maybe this is a step in the right direction? Personally it sounds alright to me, but not really what I want. Mainly because of a natural competitive nature of social games. A game that adheres more to skill based gaming is something I'd be far more interested in.Perhaps the best route is trying to make a character more invested in the world, so they naturally want to continue. Like by being a crucial part in town building or other communities in games.

im looking forward to gw2, and i think most people are looking too much into it without having enough info to be worried about anything in the first place.

imo GW succeeded in curbing the bad habits of the mmo genre [mindless + pointless gameplay, grind etc] though it still has a few issues, but that being said its possibly the ONLY high quality mmo out there which can be played casually and addictively w/o leaving a major gulf in "toon strength" between the two types of players, as well as one of the few mmo's or possibly the only one whose character builds arnt linear and continually providesi interesting and new pve and pvp methods on a regular basis due to the sheer number of skill and class combos available, not to mention the far greater level of skill required in the game then in probably most if not all other mmo's.

that being said i think GW2 should and prolly will b a good mmo, especially if they provied as much high quality gameplay as GW1 w/o subscription fee [which would b enough to win me over lol], however Anet being experimental as they are should also consider giving more prominence to non combatitve roles characters can be used to play since rpg doesnt hav to be all about action, e.g include new non combatitve professions such as miner, farmer, forester, baker, musician etc where the player is required to get better at particualr "minigames" in order to get better at this non combatative role - i think this would provide a nice way to kool of after a good round of combat [pve or pvp]

was i too off topic? lol i apoligize in advance

Well WoW is the most successful MMORPG so of course other online games will compare themselves to WoW. Btw Anet has already broken from the mold and made their own thing. GW is WoW's biggest competitor and they're doing something completely new

I'd ROFL, but that's a tad juvenille.

Seriously, by the time GW2 is released, WoW will be on its third expansion. And GW be way, way old news with all the new MMOs out by then (Hellgate, AoC, WAR, etc.)

GW has made itself into WoW's competitor (not biggest).

But the "threat" to WoW are the casual games. The non-MMORPG MMOGs.

The old fantasy and magic genre in MMOs has reached its peak with WoW. There's nothing left to do, everything new will be just improved graphics or different worlds.

Meanwhile, the likes of Habbo Hotel, Runescape, Club Penguin, Audition, Kingdom of Loathing, and other much less talked about titles have taken gaming world by storm, catering to every demographic from 1-99, offering all degrees of involvement (1 minute per day - 24 hours per day), but all without exception reaching and exceeding millions of players, and rising fast.

MMORPG is the biggest EQ clone. But it's not even nearly the biggest MMOG.

This is where the drive to make everything as casual friendly as possible comes from. That's where the market is.

How well it'll work for GW remains to be seen.

In terms of sales, GW is doing pretty good. But it has a long way to go to "compete" with WoW.

I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread:

That's why I'm confused...If most gamers are casual gamers, then why is WoW, possibly the most popular MMO in history, have so many players if it's so "anti-casual?"

Maybe the majority prefers uncasual gameplay. Who knows.

And that's the wrong way to go. If Anet keeps levels almost irrelevant (skill points only etc..) then infinite levels are fine. Otherwise you just have mega grind in a box.

Capped attribute points like we have now or skill trees keeps everyone on a pretty even playing field.

Because WoW has 2 communities in it. The casual player who runs around and does all their quests and some dungeons and may see one of the tougher dungeons and the hardcore raider who races to max level and then grinds the hard dungeons for gear to go do the next higher hard dungeon and that's all they do.

Rather like GW having a PvE community and a PvP community, with some who drift into both areas.

Depends what you consider "grind". Oblivion had high levels that took a while to get to, with each one being more powerful than the last, and I had fun at every step.

Don't need to - the sidekick system boosts the person you're partying with to your level.

FYI, Hellgate London isn't an MMO. But these companies just see $.$ with subscription fees, these other games look good, but lets see the final product and upcoming features before we proclaim them anything.

Zinger, please go back and play WoW and stop posting on guru. All of your posts are now dissing GW and about how awesome WoW is. If WoW is so awesome go post on the WoW forums.

Thank you.

An MMO with no monthly fee does not compete with one that does on equal footing and never will. Players do not have to choose GW over WoW, they can play both. Furthermore, GW and WoW aren't even the same kinds of MMO. People that play WoW don't do it for the same reasons we play GW.

QFT, in my opinion.

What will it matter?

You can't out do someone in PvP and gear won't make any difference in GW2 as everyone will be maxed for PvP with UAX (UAX still unconfirmed, but Mentioned again by Andrew patrick in IRC discussion last night)

What does it all matter in PvE? As long as PvP is balanced 100%, then PvE is groovy to carry on and actually be fun

As far as what WoW's biggest competitor is...
I wouldn't be surprised if it were another Blizzard title.
Might even be StarCraft 2 someday.
Blizzard games have been very popular all over the world for a while.
I think Paul Sams bathes in gold.

I can't speak to his other posts, but I don't see how this one was 'dissing' Guild Wars. GW really isn't WoW's biggest competition as others have pointed out. WoW measures subscribers while GW measures units sold for one thing. For another, playing one doesn't preclude playing the other. Lastly they're VASTLY different games that, in large part, appeal to different crowds...people like me who play and enjoy both are not likely to be very common (though I have no statistics to back that up).

I think it'd be helpful to address each feature revealed about GW2 on it's own merits without engaging in the worthless hyperbole regarding other games.

Yes, they appeal to vastly different crowds - yet they're both labeled the same type of game. Just one of the reasons I don't like to call GW an MMO.

Even the developers don't call it an MMO. That alone should be telling.

You done took tha words outta my mouth.

Don't forget NCSoft's own Tabula Rasa. If their dev team does not keep spectacularly self-destructing every six months, it might be my next MMORPG.

Taken from blizz site:

Job Update 9/7/07
New Position - Lead 3D Character Artist - Next-Gen MMO
Blizzard Entertainment is looking for an exceptionally skilled lead 3D character artist for a team focused on next-generation massively multiplayer online games. The ideal candidate has extensive experience modeling and texturing a diverse visual range of characters and creatures at a senior or lead level. A solid grasp of form, structure, color, and light for both 2D and 3D art assets is essential. The lead 3D character artist must have experience leading a team, have skill in another art task as well (illustration, modeling, texturing, animation, or concept drawing), and be well-versed in related tools -- Maya, Photoshop, etc...

I'm wondering the very same thing

Let us hope their next MMO isn't another ripoff of Games Workshop's IP.

Also, I am of the opinion that GW is not a major competitor to WoW - they cater to different gamer types... WoW to hardcore, GW to casual.

I've been playing the closed and now open beta for some time. It feels bit like GW in space in my opinion (although in TR one explores the world more like in WoW and areas are more open overall)
Still need lots & lots of polishing though, considering it'll come out quite soon.

Jackie, "GW in space" sounds kinda awesome. If they do polish some of the rough spots, is it your opinion that it's as fun, or more fun than GW?

It might turn out a superb game, at least in the beta servers people are really social & help each other (like back when GW was released) and for example there's enemy npc's that try to invade outposts/towns all the time so battles feel dynamic. As fun or more fun than GW, I do not dare to say anything atm, too many aspects in TR that I haven't experienced yet.

It isn't fun? I have a lot of fun with it and adding a longer level cap I think makes it less fun.

For the most part the end game, the part of the game after the level capped is reached, is the part I really want to play. A higher level cap makes people play parts of the game they may not want too. It generally breaks the game into segments for designated levels, once you get beyond that level range its too easy and beyond its too hard. I really like the mission Gandara Fortress, in a game that isn't like Guild Wars I would be too high of a level to have a similar experience with it. What if my friends are significantly higher or lower level then me? In a game with a large level cap we're forcefully split up for a long time.

PvE in a social game is also naturally somewhat competitive, I want my character to be as strong as it possibly can. In a game that rewards the amount of time in game with strength my character is weaker just because I can't play as long, not because they're any better at the game. I find it frustrating.

Heh. Yes, I was in the closed beta also. Can't wait to play an exobiologist. /advertisement

Starcraft Online or Diablo 3 (though I never played either Diablo), please!

Hell, it might even be Lost Vikings Online.

WoW II perhaps?

They are not working on a WoW 2. They have three dev teams, one is the WoW team, another Starcraft 2, and the third which is rumored to be codenamed "Hydra." Since they aren't going to make WoW 2 (really that would make no sense to cut the life span of the first one this short when it makes them so much money) it would probably be Diablo 3.

Why not a Starcraft MMORPG?

It says it's for a MMORPG, and unless Diablo 3 will be a MMORPG (a bad move, IMO. Too similar to WoW).

It could be WoW II, also. Blizzard spends a LONG time in developing games. It would be very smart to start developing WoW II now, while the iron is hot. Then, when WoW begins to wane (HA! Like that will happen!); they rekindle interest with the announcement: Prepare for the biggest MMORPG ever: WoW II - Electric Boogaloo!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086999/

They said that it wasn't World Of Starcraft either. The Hydra project is supposed to be a new IP.

But your forgetting another big announcement made a while back about GW2...

It will have a "buddy" system (sidekick style), similar to City of Heroes, allowing low level people to be SideKicked and bumped up in "level", to do high end content

Personally, i'm really looking forward to a totally open and explorable Guild Wars world, that i can play anywhere, any time and still have instanced missions to follow the storyline at the same time, but hell, maybe thats just me

I know this is off-topic, but if Blizzard had turned starcraft or turns diablo into an MMORPG, it may well, depending on whether "World of Starcraft/Diablo" was even half as successful as WoW, ruin the games industry. Already, games industries have had to fight to be heard, especially those companies who make normal RPGs, like Heroes of Might and Magic. For myself, if I'd been willing to pay the subscription fee, I'd probably have played WoW. I wouldn't switch from GW now, but still.

......gw2<WoW

I read an interview in a magazine with the person who lead the Oblivion team and said that MMOs are already making it hard for companies to put out off line rpgs. If Blizzard made a starcraft or diablo mmo and it was successful, it would put a lot of other mmos out of business because there is only so many people willing to pay a monthly fee for a game (and less that would pay to play multiple games), and they would be paying their money to blizzard.

I didn't forget. I was speaking in generic terms not specifically about any game. As it concerns GW2, Anet seems to be taking an approach to act against these problems individually. It might be a better way, I can't help but feel like its a worse solution.

For example with sidekicking I think I'll feel like a third wheel while I'm playing, it really doesn't sit with me well.(though I've never had the opportunity to try it, it could be absolutely wonderful) It does address the specific problem of friends out leveling you, but it doesn't address other that "a grind to the level cap" kind of game has. I think ANet will address these in different ways as well.

If I was giving the impression that Guild Wars 2 sounds like something I don't like, that really isn't the case. I'm quite excited for it too. The persistence parts sound great, UAX for PvP sounds great, world PvP sounds good too... really everything about it I like, except for an increased leveling system. No, it isn't turning into Grind Wars or anything like that. It's not going to ruin the game even in the worst implementation I can imagine them doing, I just think it's a good idea to voice that a level 20 cap was one of the best features in Guild Wars and I'd prefer it not to be changed. All in all: its a long way off, we don't know much, and no game is perfect. I could live with being a level 1000 Sylvari, I've even played Lineage 2 for a long time and it's a ton more grindy then Guild Wars will ever be.

I'd only be concerned about the level cap if it will affect PvP. It will not affect PvP, so therefore I am not worried.

I do look forward to it though, leveling's fun.

I agree. Truth hurts, ain't it? Zinger should've known by now that us the GW community prefer to live in our little pre-searing wonderland where GW is so perfect nothing else matters.

....

Seriously though, stop with the personal attack.

Well, when I quit Everquest 2 and started playing WoW and still hung out in the EQ2 forums and said WoW is a great game and EQ2 should be more like it.
After I got tired of WoW, I started playing Guild Wars and kept hanging out in the forums saying GW is a great game and WoW could learn from it.
It's a hilarious cycle that I guess not only I am victim too.

Whatever game I play next I'll try not to come to these forums saying that game is great and GW should be more like it. I must break the silly cycle.

They're probably just referring to future WoW expansions as being "next-gen." (lol)

But even so, every game company thinks their MMO is a "Next-gen MMO," its just a marketing buzzword. Whether it really is or not is another story of course, so I really doubt that's any proof that there's something specific and new in the works.