I'm seriously wondering if Sins are not as good scythe wearer as dervishes.
I have compared this two builds:
D/X
DPS of 53.
A/D
DPS of 62.
The two build shares the same attack skills, excepted that the dervish have Zealous sweep and the sin Malicious strike and Victorious sweep.
The other skills are the critical strike skills Way if the master and Critical eye
for the sin, and Heart of Fury, Zealous renewal and Furious haste for the dervish.
Zealous scythe of Enchantment for both.
Energy armor for the dervish, no insignas for the sin. Minor runes only. (14 Scythe, 13 Myst and 14 Crit, 12 scythe). There were health runes on dervish armor I didn't bother to remove.
These skills are both DPS enhancer (by raising critical chances for the sin, by putting an IAS for the Dervish) and energy management (by ending for the dervish, by crit on the sin).
When I first began to do these builds, I used only HEart of Fury on the dervish, but it appeared that its DPS was really inferior to the sin one as it couldn't spam his attack skills. I needed to put energy armor + Zealous Renewal + ZEalous sweep to be able to spam attacks. I also used Furious haste to further increase IAS length (cause Heart of fury cannot be maintained on recharge), as well as end prematurely zealous renewal to gain energy faster.
You have seen the results. The dervish never came near the damage the sin could unleash.
I used voluntarily only PvP available skills. If I had threw in Critical agility and Aura of holy might for the sin (as well as Eternal Aura and AoHM for the dervish), the sin would have got even higher DPS.
I'm all for a Scythe Dervish build that has very higher DPS than this.
The big advantage for the sin is that he never runs out of energy, allowing a constant spam of his skills. He didn't either have to use both critical eye and way of the master active, that increases DPS but one is enough for energy management.
You have the elite forms for the dervish, but you could also threw in devastating teleports for the sin.
So my question is, is the Scythe sin viable for PvP?
A/D and D/X comparison.
glountz
Laenavesse
i've seen it happen.
I've been brutally mauled by it.
so i think it's quite possible if they have the right build and know what they are doing and DON'T use an avatar. I don't think the avatar helped this one sin much...
I just question t he survivability. I guess if you sacrificed some of the damage for the enchants *shrugs* but it's been like, ages since i played a derv and i never liked them. I can only tell you what i've experienced and it huuuuurt xD
I've been brutally mauled by it.
so i think it's quite possible if they have the right build and know what they are doing and DON'T use an avatar. I don't think the avatar helped this one sin much...
I just question t he survivability. I guess if you sacrificed some of the damage for the enchants *shrugs* but it's been like, ages since i played a derv and i never liked them. I can only tell you what i've experienced and it huuuuurt xD
Zodiak
You could always bring Eternal_Aura and pre-cast it before attacking, when it ends it will recharge all dervish skills in your bar making spamming easier.
Or use
[skill]Zealous Sweep[/skill]
Zealous Sweep for energy
[skill]radiant scythe[/skill]
Radiant scythe for spikes
[skill]farmer's scythe[/skill]
Farmer's Scythe for spam attacks
Or maybe just Avatar of Lyssa
Or use
[skill]Zealous Sweep[/skill]
Zealous Sweep for energy
[skill]radiant scythe[/skill]
Radiant scythe for spikes
[skill]farmer's scythe[/skill]
Farmer's Scythe for spam attacks
Or maybe just Avatar of Lyssa
glountz
No PVE skill so the comparison is easier.
Using Zealous skills only for the dervish is problematic, while you get energy you don't cripple, deep wound, or damage. Eremitic attack and such is also needed for spikes.
I really think seriously that sins are better damage wise. Not at all the utility that can be brought by forms (like melandru's), but for DPS, sure.
Using Zealous skills only for the dervish is problematic, while you get energy you don't cripple, deep wound, or damage. Eremitic attack and such is also needed for spikes.
I really think seriously that sins are better damage wise. Not at all the utility that can be brought by forms (like melandru's), but for DPS, sure.
Cathode_Reborn
For serious pvp, scythe sins won't replace Dervs cause they don't have access to avatar of mel and a scythe sin relies more on enchantments than a derv does. If avatar of melandru did get nerfed badly though, I imagine that'd be the end to dervs in any serious pvp.
For pve and low end pvp, it shows how poorly designed dervs are - the fact that a scythe sin does more damage and has better e-management seems like a joke. If you throw in pve skills then their damage would go way higher.
For pve and low end pvp, it shows how poorly designed dervs are - the fact that a scythe sin does more damage and has better e-management seems like a joke. If you throw in pve skills then their damage would go way higher.
Sir Pandra Pierva
The only problem with your argument is that the build use crit striking which with a sythe can do much more energy return and much more dmg with the critical strikes at almost every hit. Dervish have to use their enchants to recover energy and they are more designed mop up dmg than sins as well.
moko
you should consider that this is a teamgame and dervs often get supplied with lots of enchants that supports their energy.
but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.
also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~
but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.
also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~
Sir Pandra Pierva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
you should consider that this is a teamgame and dervs often get supplied with lots of enchants that supports their energy.
but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.
also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~ True. Yet I do both A/D and D/X and even with enchant heaven I still have less energy problems with my sin verison than with the dervish.
but on the master of damage, solo, i think the results are pretty fun.
also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~ True. Yet I do both A/D and D/X and even with enchant heaven I still have less energy problems with my sin verison than with the dervish.
Moloch Vein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
For pve and low end pvp, it shows how poorly designed dervs are
Actually it just shows how badly imbalanced sins have become.
Sir Pandra Pierva
Sins aren't actually unbalanced. They just have started really be able to other weapons pretty effectivly
glountz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
also the vulnerability to disenchants, etc.~
Well you could bring only Critical eye for what I saw (as I sometimes during my tests forgot to recast WoTM). Your DPS is hampered cause you crit less, but you still have a very hard time running out of energy. I'll try it to see if that matters that much.
zwei2stein
This comparsion is not really that good.
You sin has 6 attack skills and 2 skills which directly support them, since critical strikes can output enough energy to spam those skills on recharge, you are guaranteed higher DPS.
That DPS goes down, when you add res sig and even further doewn when you add hypothetical shadowstep and at least some utility.
Bottom line is, there is difference between build where you go all offence and actual viable build.
Besides, if you really want to test DPS, i strongly suggest using "best build avaiable". A/D is one trick pony, see how D/E with conjure performs, becuase primary devish has this awesome advantage: free secondary. Its silly not using that in comparsion.
You sin has 6 attack skills and 2 skills which directly support them, since critical strikes can output enough energy to spam those skills on recharge, you are guaranteed higher DPS.
That DPS goes down, when you add res sig and even further doewn when you add hypothetical shadowstep and at least some utility.
Bottom line is, there is difference between build where you go all offence and actual viable build.
Besides, if you really want to test DPS, i strongly suggest using "best build avaiable". A/D is one trick pony, see how D/E with conjure performs, becuase primary devish has this awesome advantage: free secondary. Its silly not using that in comparsion.
the Puppeteer
hmm - if the sin had some IAS in that build the results would be even more drastic :P
SotiCoto
Slight deviation from the topic at hand perhaps..... but has anyone tested similarly with Hammer Sin versus Hammer Warrior?
[ And deviating even more from the topic.... if anyone notices a pink Sin with the Banana Scythe running around, it is probably me playing about with Illusionary Weaponry and Drunken Master... for a laugh, of course. Those two skills were just MADE to go together though... and Feigned Neutrality / Shadow Sanctuary go nicely with them too. ]
[ And deviating even more from the topic.... if anyone notices a pink Sin with the Banana Scythe running around, it is probably me playing about with Illusionary Weaponry and Drunken Master... for a laugh, of course. Those two skills were just MADE to go together though... and Feigned Neutrality / Shadow Sanctuary go nicely with them too. ]
zwei2stein
This test actually made me go out and figure out way how to aproach that sin damage. All it took is is fix energy management:
As you see, it is DPS completelly rivaling sin one.
Since i myself added some rules (stupid me ...) i have to also abide by them.
Here it is, modified to exclude two skills to make place for res and utility:
Which is quite astonishing DPS given other stuff from this thread.
As you see, it is DPS completelly rivaling sin one.
Since i myself added some rules (stupid me ...) i have to also abide by them.
Here it is, modified to exclude two skills to make place for res and utility:
Which is quite astonishing DPS given other stuff from this thread.
glountz
Wow!
I might reconsider Zealous Vow ^^.
But yes, the big part about the sin is the in-built e-management+damage enhancer.
If you are able to e-manage the dervish so he can spam its attacks yes its DPS is superior.
PS : using flail is cheating! :P
I might reconsider Zealous Vow ^^.
But yes, the big part about the sin is the in-built e-management+damage enhancer.
If you are able to e-manage the dervish so he can spam its attacks yes its DPS is superior.
PS : using flail is cheating! :P
moko
Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
PS : using flail is cheating! :P
open secondary ftw?:P
glountz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
open secondary ftw?:P
Well, not exactly as this build DPS oriented is not viable PvP-wise (WASD will kill it flail+no cripple= target fleeing).
But in PVE it is gut!
But in PVE it is gut!
African War Lord
how about having 16 scythe on your derv to be fair?
glountz
Quote:
Originally Posted by African War Lord
how about having 16 scythe on your derv to be fair?
Using a sup in PvP on a 70 AL character is wanting to make your monk have a nightmare. Have to check for PVE though, but remember that a 16 in critical strikes will seriously enhance damage as well.
African War Lord
that's my derv lol. and I messed up several times. hard to keep interested for that long.