Title explains it all. The fact is that nowadays you can look at two rank 9's in HA, and one could be an extremely good player who only plays once a week, while the other could be an Gimmickway underworld farming scrub. Players should lose points for losses.
I think the GW community needs to accept that fact that glad/hero rank doesnt mean crap without a ratio beside it to determine the differance between the player who plays forever and the player who knows what hes doing.
Basically, /implement ladder system for all forms of PvP.
I know that in order to do this all PvP ranks would have to be reset, and while I dont mind that alot of players would. So im suggesting this for GW2.
Base PvP ranks on Wins/loss rather then just points.
Master Ketsu
![Ec]-[oMaN](/static/static/../Img/avatar8384_2.gif){kind=avatar}
Ec]-[oMaN
Basically all it would do is replace one distinction with another....
RhanoctJocosa
I think your suggestion is stupid. Rank is pretty much just a *small* idea of how experienced a player is with tombs/arenas/GvG, you don't have to go by it. In your example, who cares who is the better rank 9? If you're in need of a r9+ pug then choose one, see how good they are, and go from there. Honestly, rank is only important for pugging, which most players don't really do. No reason to change how things are now.
As for a ladder system, which I'm assuming you mean to rank individual players, that makes little sense since you're with a team...
Anyway....
Exactly...
/notsigned, as you like to call it- Fail.
As for a ladder system, which I'm assuming you mean to rank individual players, that makes little sense since you're with a team...
Anyway....
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Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN
Basically all it would do is replace one distinction with another....
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/notsigned, as you like to call it- Fail.
Spazzer
Woah, people can't tell a player's skill by /rank? Someone call a news crew!
Remember, the way a person talks and plays is more important than the shape of their glowy. Of course, good players aren't going to seek out your R9 pug. It's a catch22.
Anyway, this is an RPG game at heart, and the soul of these types of games is that you never lose a reward once you gain it. And Anet has always angled the game so that Fame has been easier and easier to gain since the game came out.
Remember, the way a person talks and plays is more important than the shape of their glowy. Of course, good players aren't going to seek out your R9 pug. It's a catch22.
Anyway, this is an RPG game at heart, and the soul of these types of games is that you never lose a reward once you gain it. And Anet has always angled the game so that Fame has been easier and easier to gain since the game came out.
Zahr Dalsk
Better idea: remove PvP ranks; they don't really say much aside from how much HA someone has done. Which is not indicative of their skill.
Master Ketsu
The idea is to make it more reflective of a players skill then it currently is by taking into account how many times they have failed. By saying its a bad idea because it replaces one distinction with a new one, your really missing the point.
FYI: out of the top 100 professional Gamers, The agreement that Win/loss ratio is immensely superior to a punishment free curve system in terms of determining player skill is almost unanimous. The few who said otherwise were on more booze then you can imagine.
Im assuming that youve never played a team based game with a ladder system ?
FYI: out of the top 100 professional Gamers, The agreement that Win/loss ratio is immensely superior to a punishment free curve system in terms of determining player skill is almost unanimous. The few who said otherwise were on more booze then you can imagine.
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| As for a ladder system, which I'm assuming you mean to rank individual players, that makes little sense since you're with a team... |
lishi
while it look like a bad idea its actually a very bad idea.
few thing who can happen.
Lets play EoE bomb for fun.
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
I have this friend who like to learn pvp lets take him
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
i have this wonderfull idea of a build to test.
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
few thing who can happen.
Lets play EoE bomb for fun.
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
I have this friend who like to learn pvp lets take him
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
i have this wonderfull idea of a build to test.
- no way i dont want compromise my rank.
Spazzer
I would like a win/loss ratio system if they bring back 6 team maps to tombs.
RhanoctJocosa
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
Your missing the point. The idea is to make it more reflective of a players skill then it currently is by taking into account how many times they have failed.
FYI: out of the top 100 professional Gamers, The agreement that Win/loss ratio is superior to a punishment free curve system is almost unanimous. The few who said otherwise were on more booze then you can imagine. |
Out of these top 100 professional gamers, how many play GUILD WARS?
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
Im assuming that youve never played a team based game with a ladder system ?
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Master Ketsu
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So, with your new ladder, someone with 30w and 0l (ofc this can't happen with HA; I'm just using these figures for the sake of argument) is considered "higher ranked"; "better"; "more skilled" than someone with 4500w and 2500l, when their 30w could just be against scrubs on uw or equally bad groups? Out of these top 100 professional gamers, how many play GUILD WARS? |
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Quote:
| I'm assuming you haven't played tombs? You know, where you play in different teams frequently. |
Deadlyjunk
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Originally Posted by lishi
while it look like a bad idea its actually a very bad idea.
few thing who can happen. Lets play EoE bomb for fun. - no way i dont want compromise my rank. I have this friend who like to learn pvp lets take him - no way i dont want compromise my rank. i have this wonderfull idea of a build to test. - no way i dont want compromise my rank. |
RhanoctJocosa
Rank is a rough indication of how experienced a player is in a certain area of PvP. You don't know what they played to get that rank, who they played with, what times they played- nothing. If you were to change the system, wiping all previous rank, into ladder format, nothing will change, which is what I said earlier.
You want to argue a point (be it flawed), Master Ketsu, sure, but /facepalms and the opinions of 100 people who don't even play GW doesn't cut it.
/close.
You want to argue a point (be it flawed), Master Ketsu, sure, but /facepalms and the opinions of 100 people who don't even play GW doesn't cut it.
/close.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
The idea is to make it more reflective of a players skill then it currently is by taking into account how many times they have failed. By saying its a bad idea because it replaces one distinction with a new one, your really missing the point.
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"It's nice to not have a bad win loss record, but I wish it reflected a lot of playing/experience everyday"
or something like that.
I'd rather have someone with 400/131 record than 91/14, simply because the guy with 200 wins has a lot more experience.
Master Ketsu
But Id also rather have a rank 9 with 500 losses then a rank 9 with 10000 losses.
Sleeper Service
...HL2 and its mods (CS /s) stat w****s the BANE of ANY fun gaming in a pub serv.
NO.
NO.
Master Ketsu
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| ..HL2 and its mods (CS /s) stat w****s the BANE of ANY fun gaming in a pub serv. |
Darkobra
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
But Id also rather have a rank 9 with 500 losses then a rank 9 with 10000 losses.
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Sleeper Service
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
and these are any better or worse then cookie cutter underworld farming rankRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs how ?
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Master Ketsu
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
WHAT UW farming rank???? sure people demand specific builds for UW and thats BAD nevertheless its also off topic.
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Dean Harper
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
Better idea: remove PvP ranks; they don't really say much aside from how much HA someone has done. Which is not indicative of their skill.
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HawkofStorms
An actualy ranking system (like the GvG or HB ladder) based on the ELO system is a MUCH better way to determine real skill level. I feel like its too late for GW1 (too many people who grinded for 100s of hours on end with IWAY and Spirit Spamming would get mad).
But yeah, however they do that "professional PvP" (unlike the causal PvP) of GW2, should be run off the ELO system.
But yeah, however they do that "professional PvP" (unlike the causal PvP) of GW2, should be run off the ELO system.
aapo
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Originally Posted by lishi
few thing who can happen.
Lets play EoE bomb for fun. - no way i dont want compromise my rank. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lishi
I have this friend who like to learn pvp lets take him
- no way i dont want compromise my rank. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lishi
i have this wonderfull idea of a build to test.
- no way i dont want compromise my rank. |
It isn't that hard if you think things through.
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Originally Posted by Darkobra
In that order? Ranks mean nothing, anyway. A skilled player will be skilled regardless of rank.
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Div
Any serious PvPer doesn't look at stuff like Fame or sometimes even Champ as an indicator of skill. It shows how much experience and time people put into those areas of PvP, but definitely not skill. The win/loss record thing won't necessarily solve that problem either, and would require lots of database storage. The best way to see how good a player is to try them out. Faction/fame/champ is just an indicator to screen out people who have very little chance of being good.
Having just posted a recruitment ad, I've gotten ~30 applicants. There's no way I can guest and try out every single player, so stuff like fame and champ points are needed to screen out the bad players. I'm not going to waste time trying out someone with 100k faction and is rank 2 with no champ points, so getting rid of those titles completely is bad too. Sure, that guy might be good or have lots of potential, but what are the chances of that? Probably much less than trying out a guy with 3 mil+ faction, rank 10, and champ 2.
Having just posted a recruitment ad, I've gotten ~30 applicants. There's no way I can guest and try out every single player, so stuff like fame and champ points are needed to screen out the bad players. I'm not going to waste time trying out someone with 100k faction and is rank 2 with no champ points, so getting rid of those titles completely is bad too. Sure, that guy might be good or have lots of potential, but what are the chances of that? Probably much less than trying out a guy with 3 mil+ faction, rank 10, and champ 2.
Darkobra
I was talking on a larger scale than the basic PVP in Guild Wars. Well, if you've ever played such games.
lishi
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
WHAT UW farming rank???? sure people demand specific builds for UW and thats BAD nevertheless its also off topic.
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lishi
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Originally Posted by aapo
- Then make two modes of playing like in GvG: unranked and ranked. Problem solved!
- Then make each team member's ELO rating changes based on team averages. Problem solved! - Then make two modes of playing like in GvG: unranked and ranked. Problem solved! It isn't that hard if you think things through. - Well, duh, this discussion began because ranks don't mean anything. Suggestion was made so that they would mean something and stupid fame-farming build grinder 10 hours a day would not give you rank 12. Only actual increase in playing skill (measured by win/loss or rating) would advance your ranking. Even better if it's actually in correlation how good your peers are. |
2) A low skilled player in a team of high ranked player will affect the average team level by a very low level. while he will affect the team performance by a lot.(if they will make it affect by a good amount then you will find people logging in a secondary accont to get more rating)
the win/loss ratio sound a good idea, its actually isnt. It create too many probrems.
And btw that too is not a good indicator of a player skills. im pretty sure many people who actually played the prenerfed ranger/bloodspike have a pretty good rating. but that dont make them good player.
Plus it will make much worse for a team to take new people in.
adrifts
in my experience, you can blame a loss on something as simple as one person for being disconnected and etc, and i don't think it would be fair to make everyone else pay for it. even the ladder doesn't quite reflect skill properly, rawr is rank 1 for example.
Cnegurozka
It would even promote more rank discrimination:
If i have a high ELO rating, i will ONLY and EVER play with ppl that have at least my rating. If i play with ppl with a lower rating, I'm running a high risk of losing a fight and thus losing my rank. (Seen this in other games that are team based and have player based ELO rating)
If i have a high ELO rating, i will ONLY and EVER play with ppl that have at least my rating. If i play with ppl with a lower rating, I'm running a high risk of losing a fight and thus losing my rank. (Seen this in other games that are team based and have player based ELO rating)
RhanoctJocosa
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Originally Posted by Cnegurozka
It would even promote more rank discrimination:
If i have a high ELO rating, i will ONLY and EVER play with ppl that have at least my rating. If i play with ppl with a lower rating, I'm running a high risk of losing a fight and thus losing my rank. (Seen this in other games that are team based and have player based ELO rating) |
I don't think OP PvPs, either that or he/she's just stupid.
HawkofStorms
People discriminate by rank anyway. At least this way, the ELO rating would be a legitamate way to determine skill level.
A11Eur0
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Originally Posted by lishi
if someone got rank 9 farming underworld 1 fame by time he deserve the rank 9.
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I'm no PvP'er so I'm kinda confused on how to gain fame other than winning in PvP arenas...Guildwiki only says that it's gained through wins in HA...can I get it in TA, GvG?
Selket
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Originally Posted by Dean Harper
I kept the hexes off, and kept the weapon spells on at ALL times. Here's the cincher: IM ONLY R1!!!!
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HawkofStorms
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Originally Posted by Selket
Being able to play your bar is the least important part of HA, and basically anyone should be able to play any given bar for HA.
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Sleeper Service
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
and these are any better or worse then cookie cutter underworld farming rankRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs how ?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lishi
if someone got rank 9 farming underworld 1 fame by time he deserve the rank 9.
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
Can someone explain this to me?
I'm no PvP'er so I'm kinda confused on how to gain fame other than winning in PvP arenas...Guildwiki only says that it's gained through wins in HA...can I get it in TA, GvG? |
nobody has ever asked for "rank" in any of the times i have been into UW.
Chris Blackstar
the boneheads that use rank to determine who plays with them suck anyway. More experienced players, simply play with more experienced players. I have learned that you can make yourself look experienced quite simply by knowing the skills, game, and builds; also knowing how to be a team player and listen to instructions.
A good team has very good coordination and timing.
Rank has it's purpose, which to me is not experience. Win/Lose averages is no indicator of skill either, only other players can really determine a persons skill, based off of their own experience.
Personally, I think their should be no indicator at all for any casual PvP play. Professional play should be ranked by win/lose averging, based off of each team, which would consist of the same players.
A good team has very good coordination and timing.
Rank has it's purpose, which to me is not experience. Win/Lose averages is no indicator of skill either, only other players can really determine a persons skill, based off of their own experience.
Personally, I think their should be no indicator at all for any casual PvP play. Professional play should be ranked by win/lose averging, based off of each team, which would consist of the same players.
Master Ketsu
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Originally Posted by aapo
- Well, duh, this discussion began because ranks don't mean anything. Suggestion was made so that they would mean something and stupid fame-farming build grinder 10 hours a day would not give you rank 12. Only actual increase in playing skill (measured by win/loss or rating) would advance your ranking. Even better if it's actually in correlation how good your peers are.
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And it doesnt neccesarily have to be that drastic. Just a simple % of the matches they have played/lost embedded in the hero and glad title.
Its true that rank doesnt mean much, but if you had to pick wouldnt it be nice to tell the differance between a rank 9 who has lost 95% of his matches and a rank 8 who's lost 10% ? 35%~50% would be luck and based on your team, but theirs a point where it does start to matter. People are going to discriminate with ranks no matter what, so at least make them reflect a player as best as they can.
Liberations
I like your idea, Master Ketsu, but, I too, see a better option:
Get rid of Rank altogether. Put 6 team battles in HA, and create a personal ladder. Maybe have ranked and unranked HA? HA isn't that popular now so I dont know if that would work.
Well we can see one thing. ArenaNet has a lot of PvP work to do. PvE is fine, PvP needs the fixing.
Get rid of Rank altogether. Put 6 team battles in HA, and create a personal ladder. Maybe have ranked and unranked HA? HA isn't that popular now so I dont know if that would work.
Well we can see one thing. ArenaNet has a lot of PvP work to do. PvE is fine, PvP needs the fixing.