Drops: Mass Agro vs 1v1 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

12 Oct 2007 at 18:35 - 1

(what i have wrote down her is from alot of uw/general farming exp - does not just apply to uw farming)

Ok I've always been abit confused on how this works exactly, but for example:

UW Run -> agro 12 smites with w/me and kill them off 1 at a time = came out with almost double drops. (fodder but you know)

UW Run -> agro 12 smites with w/me and kill them off all at once = came out with about 90% less drops.

the catch:

In both types of runs i get the same amount of ecto on average, and the same amout of gold drops and keys on average, but the only differ is i get a hell of alot more merch fodder with 1 at a time (and collector items)

So does this mean that loot scaling only applies to mass kill at once? or even fast kill?

Quote:

Loot scaling

With loot scaling, players receive an amount of normal drops (common and uncommon rarity items, collectable drops, gold, common crafting materials) proportionate to the size of their party as compared to a full party. For example, a solo farmer will on average get the same number of blue weapons as a player in an eight person party. The only items exempt from this rule are:

* Skill Tomes
* Insight and Passages Scrolls
* Dyes
* Rare crafting materials
* All rare (gold) items
* All unique (green) items
* Special event items

I'd love to see anyone on the A-team(anet - team) come here for a chat

Zaxan Razor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Organised Spam [OS]

W/

12 Oct 2007 at 20:04 - 2

Indeed, this is what I have long thought - killing several things at once will not effect the items that are under the effects of loot scaling, but it sure does destroy your chances of getting white/blue items. (which is bad in its own right, especially with the high prices of scales/granite slabs and decent prices of iron ingots).

tuna-fish_sushi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

California

E/A

12 Oct 2007 at 21:36 - 3

I believe its true when farming destroyer cores solo I have gotten a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 6 whereas i did 15 runs with hench/hero and got alot of no core runs and a maximum of 2. I also noticed significantly less white/blue item drops.

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

12 Oct 2007 at 22:22 - 4

hmmm so i wonder if they can acauly give out more specific information about drop rates and loot scaling.

Diddy bow

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

Jawsome!!!!!!!!!!!

looking for one :p

A/D

12 Oct 2007 at 22:32 - 5

Yes, there is defietly an advantage to one at a time killing than just nuking them all, if a small one, but they proberly lept us in the dark so we wouldnt find more efficent ways round it. I mean it sort of misses the point of loot scaling then, oh wait there was no point

.

Soz about horrid spelling im tired and cba ^^.

DarkGanni

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Malta

[CuTe]

E/

14 Oct 2007 at 06:49 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by dont feel no pain

hmmm so i wonder if they can acauly give out more specific information about drop rates and loot scaling.

When it comes to nerfs expect "secret" updates, welcome to Guild Wars

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

14 Oct 2007 at 12:52 - 7

Yes I found this out while farming with my ele in Ascalon. I was killing 3 at a time and getting 1 drop if that. Well I ended up killing only 1 at a time for a few tries and found I was getting a drop per kill, then figured it out all on my own (!!) that the less you fight, the more you get.

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

14 Oct 2007 at 13:52 - 8

Did you do more than 100 runs for each? What was your control set? Were the results statistically significant?

Or did you do two runs and conclude everything from that?

Quote:

then figured it out all on my own (!!) that the less you fight, the more you get

My monk disagrees.

I also have a proof that oranges are good for drops. One time, I was eating an orange while farming UW, and got 3 ectos. On next run, I wasn't eating an orange, and I got no ectos.

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

14 Oct 2007 at 14:06 - 9

I've actually noticed this effecting normal parties as well, which is a pain. I could sweep my way through an area, killing everything in my path and have a measly 20g, possibly a merch fodder out of it. It could be said that the AI in my party were taking all the drops, but I seem to recall getting a significant amount more than 20g when walking through an area, killing about 100+ enemies along the way.

It's rather disappointing wiping out a few groups at once (20-25 enemies) and once you and your henchies have killed them all, there's not a single drop of anything. Not even a bag of gold. It's not a one time thing either, it happens often enough to be noticable and distinguishable from henching through a few months back and beyond.

Shadowfox1125

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

PST

W/

14 Oct 2007 at 18:15 - 10

Hm.. I'm gonna test this out on the elementals outside of Sardelac..

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

A/

14 Oct 2007 at 20:27 - 11

Yeh, this is correct.

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

14 Oct 2007 at 21:52 - 12

go to the UW, stay there for a week, then finaly kill all the smites... get all golds + 1000 ecto, could we acauly find a hole in the system.... i wish ^^

Corwin_Andros

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

Wayward Wanderers

W/E

14 Oct 2007 at 22:41 - 13

There is definitely a difference between killing off the mobs slowly and speed killing as far as drops go. Solo farming hydras in the desert, as long as I space of the deaths a bit I get about a 60-70% drop rate. If I kill too fast it drops to like 25-30% if that.

It kinda sucks in that it makes each run of 85-90 hydras take about 15 minutes longer, but it also makes it more fun because now there is actually some player skill involved in farming.

I had found this really nice gold axe that extended enchantments by like 20% or more. I tried it on a run and ended up with maybe half as much at the end. SHoJ just lasts too long and the mobs all drop within a second or two of each other. So in a mob of 4 or 5 hydras I'd get maybe 1 drop.. sometimes none.

Whereas without the extended enchantment, the mobs generally only get knocked down to about 10 health or so and I can pick them off one at a time. Doing it that way, in a mob of 4-5, I'll often get at least 2 drops and often 3 or 4.

And for the people that actually farm Hydras..as well as several other things I'm sure.. farming in HM is actually easier than in NM, as well as more profitable.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

15 Oct 2007 at 00:26 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Did you do more than 100 runs for each? What was your control set? Were the results statistically significant?

I don't know about OP, but I have seen the tables from a statistically meaningful sample posted on gwonline that demonstrate exactly what OP is claiming: You get fewer drops from monsters killed simultaneously than from monsters killed one at a time.

Personally, I haven't done a significant enough number of samples to be conclusive, but I experience a HUGE difference between doing a dead sword farm with sliver armor and doing it with VwK.

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

15 Oct 2007 at 00:44 - 15

There has been a few fairly decent runs recorded that show that you get more drops by killing one at a time instead of mass kills, some done into the thousands of enemies killed. Not only that but the difference is significant - it goes from near 100% of everything drops something to less than 20% and is consistent along the runs. At this point if it isn't intentional it is a bug.

However, the interesting thing to note is that even though you got more drops you still pretty much stayed around the same old GPH. In fact, if you were making your money off of the rare non-scaled drops you made *less* as you greatly decreased their drop rate. Though I would guess that if you are mainly making your gold off of white high priced items (Destroyer cores) you probably make a bit more, but that is a very rare farm.

My general feeling is that Anet did loot scaling along the lines of Soul Reaping - they only allow so many merchant level gold value to drop over time for an individual character (and that includes plain gold dropping), but that is pure speculation.

Roshi_ikkyu

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Mo/W

15 Oct 2007 at 10:33 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I also have a proof that oranges are good for drops. One time, I was eating an orange while farming UW, and got 3 ectos. On next run, I wasn't eating an orange, and I got no ectos.

You don't want to know what freud thinks about the reason why you were eating an Orange!

While I agree an empricial study should be conducted... no need to be a asshat about it

=DNC=Trucker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

TLA

Me/

15 Oct 2007 at 10:40 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Did you do more than 100 runs for each? What was your control set? Were the results statistically significant?

Or did you do two runs and conclude everything from that?

My monk disagrees.

I also have a proof that oranges are good for drops. One time, I was eating an orange while farming UW, and got 3 ectos. On next run, I wasn't eating an orange, and I got no ectos.

There have been studies where some folks have literally recorded 50-100 runs both ways, in excel, every drop. You can't argue with that amount of data. If you don't believe it, just go try for yourself.

Does anyone else find it odd that we are going for scales/feathers/cores, etc for the money - and the gold drops mostly merchant fodder?

Pwny Ride

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Aussieland

Prime Players Of [OSHA] ~ [dth] alliance. <3

Me/E

15 Oct 2007 at 11:58 - 18

Lucky i recorded this run in the Plains of Jarin today.

Took my curses necro out to the Plains of Jarin and picked off enemies one by one. by 38 kills i had~

1,252g
2 Lockpicks
1 Gold
5 Grapes
2 blues
3 whites
1 Black Dye

Now i understand that the fact that the dye was black means nothing, but dyes are not scaled, one dropping was a bonus at all for me.

As opposed to soloing a multitude of enemies at once in and in succession, id be lucky to get a gold and maybe half of those liquid gold drops.

EDIT: This was in Hard Mode of course.

blue.rellik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Melbourne, Australia

None

W/

15 Oct 2007 at 12:02 - 19

I have similar problems. I decided to do a spider cave run with my warrior after god knows how long. As usual I aggroed the entire group at the front and bunched them up. I took them down incredibly quickly with Whirlwind Attack and got like 5 times less drops. The last time I did a spider cave run (this was before the SS skills were released), I would get a drop from nearly every spider, this time I averaged 1 drop per 4 spiders for those at the front

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

15 Oct 2007 at 12:06 - 20

I too have done certain tests in the first city hard mode,

one run was with a 55 monk SOJ Etc:

1 gold
0 lockpicks
6 purples
1 blue dye
1 brown dye XD
6 whites
few bones/dust

then a 105 monk with a sycthe and aura of holy might.

3 golds
14 purples
9 whites
0 lockpicks
1 yellow dye
hell of alot of bones and dust and cloth + collector items.

I know thats 1 run but thats just me recording, i have this many times.

Also of the strangest of things!!!

When i was lvling my pet hawk by ice tooth cave of mino, (dire lvling) i just agro -> took small dmg and it killed groups of 1 at a time, every single mino gave me a drop!

Uw farming with pets ftw?

Possibly pets break system XD

boxterduke

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Walking the ruins of Ascalon

DVDF

Me/

15 Oct 2007 at 12:15 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Yes I found this out while farming with my ele in Ascalon. I was killing 3 at a time and getting 1 drop if that. Well I ended up killing only 1 at a time for a few tries and found I was getting a drop per kill, then figured it out all on my own (!!) that the less you fight, the more you get.

QFT.
I was doing the RT 330 build in Elona with insects and the same happened.
Now it takes longer to do so but you get more drops.

I miss the old days.

They keep changing how loot is dropped but it only affects the "human" players, now in case of bots, they don't care since well its a bot...

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

15 Oct 2007 at 12:22 - 22

so in other words we should exactly what bots dont! ^^ , well kinda. even though its take long it seems to be worthwhile.

darkdreamr

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2007

beyond the yellow brick road

She Left With Half My [GeAr]

Me/

15 Oct 2007 at 16:50 - 23

In the UW, ever wonder why Dying Nightmares always drop something? Cause they're always solo. You might get 1 drop from a group of 5 Smites, although the ecto drops are calculated separately so you always have a chance at those.

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 16:54 - 24

Whether its to combat bots or not its pretty retarded.Being penialized for killing too fast?Foolishness.

Darksun

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

USA

Karr's Castle

W/E

15 Oct 2007 at 17:50 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

When it comes to nerfs expect "secret" updates, welcome to Guild Wars

Welcome to every online game in the universe.
The whole point of "secret" rule implementation is to stop exploitation. If people KNEW how the anti bot/whatever code worked, they could work around it. that's the whole POINT of secrecy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Whether its to combat bots or not its pretty retarded.Being penialized for killing too fast?Foolishness.

I don't know. It's harder to kill 1 at a time, so this system actually DOES reflect skill vs ease. As much as I don't like it, it's probably rewarding more accurately.

Nomen Mendax

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

Clan Suiel

W/Mo

15 Oct 2007 at 20:06 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Welcome to every online game in the universe.
The whole point of "secret" rule implementation is to stop exploitation. If people KNEW how the anti bot/whatever code worked, they could work around it. that's the whole POINT of secrecy.

I don't know. It's harder to kill 1 at a time, so this system actually DOES reflect skill vs ease. As much as I don't like it, it's probably rewarding more accurately.

Guild wars is the only online game I play (though I've played lots of single player RPGs) and I find the secrecy about basic game rules extremely irritating. Is this really common in online games?

I realize that they have to (or at least want to) fight against bots but I wish they could figure out a way to do this that doesn't affect legal players. It seems absurd that the only way to figure out how loot is distributed is to compile a mass of data and analyze it, which I just don't have the time or inclination to do.

I'm guessing that you were trying to be polite to ANet in finding some game justification for reducing loot for mass kills, but I don't think that loot should be a reward for skillful play, just a reward for killing the bad guys in whatever way possible. Of course, I'm also opposed to the entire idea of loot scaling, so my opinion should be taken in that context.

You can't see me

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

USA

P/W

15 Oct 2007 at 20:25 - 27

My personal opinion- Arenanet is teaching us that adaptation is bad.

The loot scaling system for a 1 on 1 basis being different than a mass kill basis is reverse to what you would think it would be.

We learn how to kill a monster. We get a drop. Congradulations, this is our reward for learning to kill a monster solo.

We learn later how to kill a number of monsters and still survive, a far more impressive feat, and then instead of getting rewarded greater for learning this, we get less for adapting to a situation.

And seriously, the whole thing about it was changed because of bots, is BS. Arenanet should be catering to the actual farmers, not the bots. Don't balence this game because it has bots, do your job and ban the bots. Seriously.

Riceboi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

15 Oct 2007 at 21:20 - 28

They should take away the AI running away from area of effect spells then. =)

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

16 Oct 2007 at 00:04 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riceboi

They should take away the AI running away from area of effect spells then. =)

OMG LOL, we'd be going back to 2005 with echo firestorms

Bock

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Siege Turtles [ST]

Mo/E

16 Oct 2007 at 18:25 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

My personal opinion- Arenanet is teaching us that adaptation is bad.

Survival of the fittest ftl?

AuraofMana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Georgia, US

30 Oct 2007 at 09:45 - 31

Really late reply but I am bored so:
More like, since there is nothing else fun to do in GW other than grinding away endless titles and other things, by making the loots less, we spend more time playing, which means they can keep us in GW until GW2 is released.
Marketing strategy, except they still don't realize making the game more grinding oriented while making the loot sucks means ultimate boredom. At least in all those "take a month and get 1% XP" MMORPGs you can get some sweet loots :/

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

30 Oct 2007 at 16:24 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I don't know. It's harder to kill 1 at a time, so this system actually DOES reflect skill vs ease. accurately.

Huh? With a 55 necro, anyway, I can kill individual targets without even using half my skill bar. I consider it a relaxing break from the kind of skill juggling I have to do in large mobs.

wsmcasey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Right behind you.

HeRo

W/Rt

30 Oct 2007 at 18:58 - 33

I'm gonna try this out when I get home.

Nightfall noob island outside of Kamadan is a good place to test this because there are a lot of single target monsters walking around. I'll do it on hard mode so they'll be lvl 22 or so.

Martin Firestorm

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Louisiana

E/Me

30 Oct 2007 at 21:33 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I also have a proof that oranges are good for drops. One time, I was eating an orange while farming UW, and got 3 ectos. On next run, I wasn't eating an orange, and I got no ectos.

Were you wearing your clown suit at the time? Because maybe it was that, rather than the orange you were cramming into your sad clown face.

95_GT_Stang

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Phoenix, Arizona

Guardians Of The Imperium [LaZy]

R/

30 Oct 2007 at 22:25 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I don't know. It's harder to kill 1 at a time, so this system actually DOES reflect skill vs ease. As much as I don't like it, it's probably rewarding more accurately.

I disagree, Spoil Victor FTW.

zamial

Site Contributor

Join Date: Apr 2006

Usa

TKC

N/

30 Oct 2007 at 23:44 - 36

I am not going to reveal my farm areas, but personally I see better drops killing extremely large number of foes at a time but not exactly all at the same instant. I may not be getting more drops but the quality of drops is definitely noticeable.
It is if the game is rewarding me for a mass agro and defeating that agro. This tactic also seems to hold true in the uw with smites, in my experience. But take into consideration a few additional observations:

On my oldest character, if I am in a party with "newly created or newer accounts", I will never or seemingly never receive a gold/rare drop. Even though it will appear to rain down golds for the rest of the team. On 1 occasion this was so bad that the "new" player was dropping purple items to make room for her gold drops, by the end of the run she was dropping gold items. She had 35+ open slots at the start of the run in her bags....... I never had even a purple item drop for me in that run.

The game seems to hate me. I have seen the mops do very odd things in order to get at me, also my guildies have noticed this odd behavior, it is able to be worked around but it is very strange.....

jon0592

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

31 Oct 2007 at 00:59 - 37

Here is something to think about:

Smite Crawlers w/ Terra Tank 1 Mob - 1 Ecto + Gold item
Smite Crawlers w/ Terra Tank 2 Mobs - 110 gold
Smite Crawlers w/ Duo Farm Build (nothing special) 3 Mobs - 1 Ecto + 2 Money + Lots of merch fodder

dont feel no pain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Uk,Wales

31 Oct 2007 at 09:18 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon0592

Here is something to think about:

Smite Crawlers w/ Terra Tank 1 Mob - 1 Ecto + Gold item
Smite Crawlers w/ Terra Tank 2 Mobs - 110 gold
Smite Crawlers w/ Duo Farm Build (nothing special) 3 Mobs - 1 Ecto + 2 Money + Lots of merch fodder

it just seems that way it should realy be big mob.. same chance of ecto... low chance of fodder.

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

31 Oct 2007 at 09:30 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Did you do more than 100 runs for each? What was your control set? Were the results statistically significant?

Or did you do two runs and conclude everything from that?

Some have.
But more interestingly.... many MANY people have done comparitively large numbers of runs and independantly concluded exactly the same thing. So amongst all those who have tested this matter... there is a very significant majority in favour of the "mob kill < individual kill" theory.

Nestaron

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Glasgow, Scotland

Banished Dragons

A/

31 Oct 2007 at 09:38 - 40

I've had the same results but just didn't want to post anything in fear of people thinking i'm going crazy.

I've found it more noticable in a trapping team... y'know at the bit leading to the statue in the chamber were the dryders are ? There's a afew mobs there, 5 or 6 aatxe and loads of graspings... Most times i wipe out all the groups in one and i only get 1 or 2 drops... But if i take my time by taking the groups individually i seem to ge alot more.