Joined a PUG the other day for the mission that leads to Sanctum Clay, Riverside Province. Just before entering I spammed my build:
Life Sheath
Guardian
Aegis
Protective Spirit
Rebirth
Reversal of Fortune
Draw Conditions
Divine Boon
Maybe not the best build, but it represents what I have having not completed the game, but taken a run to Droknar's Forge and a stop in Kaening in order to be able to cap something elite and have good armor.
The Elementalist in the group replied with 'Heal would have been better'.
Is a healing monk ever a better choice? Variations on the above build have gotten me from Ascalon to Riverside fairly well, with a lot of PUGs since the Shiverpeaks.
And I -know- Divine Boon is not in favor anymore, but without access to ZB I find it still very effective - better than my Healer hero can keep up with. Once I do get ZB I plan to put it where Divine Boon is and swap out Life Sheath for a Hex Removal spell such as Convert Hexes or Remove Hex.
Healing would have been better?
arcady
Stormlord Alex
Throw on Gift of Health and do both...
Pure healing builds are pretty fail, if you don't suck at prot then LoD & Kiss with liberal RoF usage can pretty much keep the red bars high, and.... you know... not suck whilst doing it *cough*all the pug monks with WoH and healbreeze *cough*
Pure healing builds are pretty fail, if you don't suck at prot then LoD & Kiss with liberal RoF usage can pretty much keep the red bars high, and.... you know... not suck whilst doing it *cough*all the pug monks with WoH and healbreeze *cough*
arcady
Nod. Will look at your skill suggestions when I get home.
The comment came at the gate of the mission, so before I had a chance to prove how good or bad I was.
I think I do a good job, but that's outside of this one, as this was sort of a 'pre-mission' critique of the very idea of having a Prot monk.
I forget my exact attributes, but they are maxed into Prot and Divine only, with 1 minor rune for each, and this character has not yet ascended so doesn't yet have those last 30 attribute points that my Nightfall monk got just for reaching level 20 in one piece.
The comment came at the gate of the mission, so before I had a chance to prove how good or bad I was.
I think I do a good job, but that's outside of this one, as this was sort of a 'pre-mission' critique of the very idea of having a Prot monk.
I forget my exact attributes, but they are maxed into Prot and Divine only, with 1 minor rune for each, and this character has not yet ascended so doesn't yet have those last 30 attribute points that my Nightfall monk got just for reaching level 20 in one piece.
Winterclaw
If they played smart, I don't see any problem with that build. Were you the only monk in the group?
arcady
Yes. Often I'm either the only monk, or somebody brings along a hench monk and a second monk - seems PUGs end up as 1 or 2 all too often and not the magic two.
This was in fact my second try at this mission. First run out, the party leader invited another monk as well, and then promptly added a third monk in the form of the local henchy monk - Alesia.
Shortly into that ran, with the other three all being WaMo's, they charge the entire mob of NPCs after the gate, rather than one tower at a time. We're in a fight of some 20-30... the second monk hasn't cast a single heal or prot the entire mission, and she goes down then rage quits, then party leader quits, and next thing I know everyone has quit save for me, one WaMo, and Alesia...
Mind you, even with a mob that size, I was able to keep the one WaMo up, but we couldn't make an impact and I mostly kept him up by spamming rebirth because he kept running away from me and back into the thick rather than edges of the mob...
Second run, I was the sole monk, and thankfully we only had one warrior and no dervishes - so no wammo-style play. That said, I was way 'off my game' - I kept everyone else alive the whole mission, but went down twice myself... Only the second time I've gone down during a PUG mission on this character. That left me wondering if the Elementalist had a point and the content is just going to start getting too rough for my build, or if it was just me being 'off' that night, or if it really did need a second monk.
This was in fact my second try at this mission. First run out, the party leader invited another monk as well, and then promptly added a third monk in the form of the local henchy monk - Alesia.
Shortly into that ran, with the other three all being WaMo's, they charge the entire mob of NPCs after the gate, rather than one tower at a time. We're in a fight of some 20-30... the second monk hasn't cast a single heal or prot the entire mission, and she goes down then rage quits, then party leader quits, and next thing I know everyone has quit save for me, one WaMo, and Alesia...
Mind you, even with a mob that size, I was able to keep the one WaMo up, but we couldn't make an impact and I mostly kept him up by spamming rebirth because he kept running away from me and back into the thick rather than edges of the mob...
Second run, I was the sole monk, and thankfully we only had one warrior and no dervishes - so no wammo-style play. That said, I was way 'off my game' - I kept everyone else alive the whole mission, but went down twice myself...
Only the second time I've gone down during a PUG mission on this character. That left me wondering if the Elementalist had a point and the content is just going to start getting too rough for my build, or if it was just me being 'off' that night, or if it really did need a second monk.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcady
Mind you, even with a mob that size, I was able to keep the one WaMo up, but we couldn't make an impact and I mostly kept him up by spamming rebirth because he kept running away from me and back into the thick rather than edges of the mob...
Just let a necro or something bring rebirth. You shouldn't be rezzing mid battle, and it's better off that you carry GoLE or something to maintain your energy.
Just let a necro or something bring rebirth. You shouldn't be rezzing mid battle, and it's better off that you carry GoLE or something to maintain your energy.
Rice
if you going full prot then it is generally a good idea to bring a heal monk to make the red bar go up. If you are the only monk just run a hybrid prot/heal. Either Lod with some prots or ZB with gift of health.
Chthon
I'm going to go out on a limb and say something that's going to be massively unpopular:
Yes, for NM Riverside Province, heal would have been better.
Given that set of monster's numbers, damage ranges, and AI response to what sounds like typical PUG aggro tactics, it's both easier and more energy efficient to just heal the damage rather than trying to prevent it. What you get out of prot is a function of how much damage (and in what number of what sized packages) your foes throw at it. Below a certain point, low foe damage leads to returns on prot that are so low you'd be better off healing. (Extreme-case example to illustrate the point: The devourers outside Ascalon City hit your lvl 20 with end-game armor for 0-2 damage per hit. That means RoF -- super-revered skill of the prot pantheon that it is -- is going to prevent 0-2 damage, and heal for 0-2 + DF bonus. You'd be better off spending your 5e on orison.) The damage output in NM Riverside Province is definitely waaaay below the point where prot performs as well as heal. A lot of people seem not to want to hear it, but the damage output in most of the rest of PvE is below that point too.
Now, please stand back and watch as I get flamed by a bunch of idiots who insist that "prot ALWAYS >>>> heal" because "the best PvE builds are based off PvP builds" and "lolz don't you know that 11 prot, 9 heal, 7 dagger mastery is the meta? Noob!" and therefore I should "qq uninstall now qq noob!"
Yes, for NM Riverside Province, heal would have been better.
Given that set of monster's numbers, damage ranges, and AI response to what sounds like typical PUG aggro tactics, it's both easier and more energy efficient to just heal the damage rather than trying to prevent it. What you get out of prot is a function of how much damage (and in what number of what sized packages) your foes throw at it. Below a certain point, low foe damage leads to returns on prot that are so low you'd be better off healing. (Extreme-case example to illustrate the point: The devourers outside Ascalon City hit your lvl 20 with end-game armor for 0-2 damage per hit. That means RoF -- super-revered skill of the prot pantheon that it is -- is going to prevent 0-2 damage, and heal for 0-2 + DF bonus. You'd be better off spending your 5e on orison.) The damage output in NM Riverside Province is definitely waaaay below the point where prot performs as well as heal. A lot of people seem not to want to hear it, but the damage output in most of the rest of PvE is below that point too.
Now, please stand back and watch as I get flamed by a bunch of idiots who insist that "prot ALWAYS >>>> heal" because "the best PvE builds are based off PvP builds" and "lolz don't you know that 11 prot, 9 heal, 7 dagger mastery is the meta? Noob!" and therefore I should "qq uninstall now qq noob!"
elektra_lucia
Draw conditions might fail if only one monk, gaurdian and aegis arn't both needed. Boon is bad, rebirth is bad.
Quote:
Quote:
Mr Pink57
Yeah Boon id not needed unless you plan on doing a crazy smite (not a terrible idea there). Also you could drop guardian for hex removal. Keep rebirth as its good to keep the habit of a rez in pve. And in place og boon you can GoLE for aegis.
pink
pink
Brood_Star
just yell at them instead. heal won't save you from retards
plus that chton guy wins
plus that chton guy wins
arcady
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
Just let a necro or something bring rebirth. You shouldn't be rezzing mid battle, and it's better off that you carry GoLE or something to maintain your energy.
When there's a warrior in the party, everything is mid battle.
Seriously...
I would leave aggro, be all nice and safe with my fuzzy little teddy bear, rez this guy with Rebirth so that he was also out of Aggro, and it's like he's a doll with a 'pull my string' cord in his back... He just runs right in, at almost zero health, and grabs up the mob again...
And I can't recall ever meeting a warrior player that didn't play that way. Well, maybe -one-, but that one warrior is in my guild over in WoW. So that's a grand total of one warrior in all three online game I play that I've met that doesn't play 'Wammo-style'.
When there's a warrior in the party, you are always in mid battle, unless the warrior is dead, or he's so outnumbered by other classes that somebody's managed to hold onto that string in his back.
Seriously...
I would leave aggro, be all nice and safe with my fuzzy little teddy bear, rez this guy with Rebirth so that he was also out of Aggro, and it's like he's a doll with a 'pull my string' cord in his back... He just runs right in, at almost zero health, and grabs up the mob again...
And I can't recall ever meeting a warrior player that didn't play that way. Well, maybe -one-, but that one warrior is in my guild over in WoW. So that's a grand total of one warrior in all three online game I play that I've met that doesn't play 'Wammo-style'.
When there's a warrior in the party, you are always in mid battle, unless the warrior is dead, or he's so outnumbered by other classes that somebody's managed to hold onto that string in his back.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcady
When there's a warrior in the party, everything is mid battle.
Which is why I don't pug anymore :P
But if I did, that's why I wouldn't bother bringing a rez.
But if I did, that's why I wouldn't bother bringing a rez.
arcady
I guess that goes both ways. In a PUG, if you don't bring a rez, these guys cause a wipe, but if you do bring a rez, they cause a nuisance.
Mostly I enjoy PUGs, and I'm used to the nuisance from doing a lot of PUGing in both this and WoW. As long as the warriors are a minority, they can't cause things to go too poorly - but I do find that PUGs without any tank do better than ones with a tank, even if the tank is a dervish rather than a warrior. Likewise in WoW, if the 'tank' there is a class thank 'alt-tanks' like a Paladin or a Druid, the PUG will do better than if it is a warrior or, worst of all, a hunter with pet.
But back to the topic here, I tried some monking last night with my Nightfall monk that does have ZB, and I kept failing until I put Divine Boon back in - ZB just doesn't fit with my style very well as its so heal focused rather than pre-prot focused. Its hard for me to remember when to use it.
The reason I keep guardian around, even with Aegis, is that Aegis runs out before it recharges, and at only 5 energy, I can spam Guardian as a gap filler whenever RoF is on a recharge cycle.
I've considered putting in Shield of Absorption instead, but that has a very slow recharge.
Mostly I enjoy PUGs, and I'm used to the nuisance from doing a lot of PUGing in both this and WoW. As long as the warriors are a minority, they can't cause things to go too poorly - but I do find that PUGs without any tank do better than ones with a tank, even if the tank is a dervish rather than a warrior. Likewise in WoW, if the 'tank' there is a class thank 'alt-tanks' like a Paladin or a Druid, the PUG will do better than if it is a warrior or, worst of all, a hunter with pet.
But back to the topic here, I tried some monking last night with my Nightfall monk that does have ZB, and I kept failing until I put Divine Boon back in - ZB just doesn't fit with my style very well as its so heal focused rather than pre-prot focused. Its hard for me to remember when to use it.
The reason I keep guardian around, even with Aegis, is that Aegis runs out before it recharges, and at only 5 energy, I can spam Guardian as a gap filler whenever RoF is on a recharge cycle.
I've considered putting in Shield of Absorption instead, but that has a very slow recharge.
Tarzanboy
You could always bring along the old Wammo shock collar, Vengeance, to "help" the hard chargers figure out that overaggro and dying sucks.
Cheers,
TB
Cheers,
TB
Sir Pandra Pierva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzanboy
You could always bring along the old Wammo shock collar, Vengeance, to "help" the hard chargers figure out that overaggro and dying sucks.
Cheers,
TB That works like wonders. I have almost stopped pugging anymore cept when I wanna just laugh my ass off at the sad builds.
Cheers,
TB That works like wonders. I have almost stopped pugging anymore cept when I wanna just laugh my ass off at the sad builds.
Desert Rose
Why noone suggests Signet of Rejuvenation? Nearly almost the teammates are attacking or casting, so you heal nearly as much as Gift of Health.
Or is the longer recast killing it?
Or is the longer recast killing it?
DRGN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Why noone suggests Signet of Rejuvenation? Nearly almost the teammates are attacking or casting, so you heal nearly as much as Gift of Health.
Or is the longer recast killing it? Well, he's running divine boon. If he ran 9 Healing(That's what I run when I run GoH), he'd get 96 + Divine Boon + DF bonus, whereas Sig would give 102 if the secondary condtion were met, with no DF or Boon bonus. True, it wouldnt cost any energy, but having energy doesn't mean anything if the teammate is dead. >_>
Or is the longer recast killing it? Well, he's running divine boon. If he ran 9 Healing(That's what I run when I run GoH), he'd get 96 + Divine Boon + DF bonus, whereas Sig would give 102 if the secondary condtion were met, with no DF or Boon bonus. True, it wouldnt cost any energy, but having energy doesn't mean anything if the teammate is dead. >_>
Tarzanboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Why noone suggests Signet of Rejuvenation? Nearly almost the teammates are attacking or casting, so you heal nearly as much as Gift of Health.
Or is the longer recast killing it? Four things kill Signet of Rejuvenation.
1. Signet of Rejuvenation lacks a divine favor bonus, making this a skill with equal effectiveness from a non-monk and a monk.
2. The conditions on half of the healing, so you figure 51 healing and at best 102 at 9 healing if they are met. Use it on the Rit who is dropping a spirit, an Ele as he is using Glyph of Lesser Energy, a Ranger as he rezes his pet or anyone using a signet, they get 51 health. Even without Divine Boon, at 9 Heal, with Gift of Health, you get 96 healing + 29 (if divine favor is at 9 as well) yielding 126 per cast.
3. The slower cast and long recast. 1 sec cast and 8 second refresh of SoR vs 3/4 cast and 5 refresh for GoH.
4. Gift of Health would disable the signet for 7 seconds.
Cheers,
TB
Or is the longer recast killing it? Four things kill Signet of Rejuvenation.
1. Signet of Rejuvenation lacks a divine favor bonus, making this a skill with equal effectiveness from a non-monk and a monk.
2. The conditions on half of the healing, so you figure 51 healing and at best 102 at 9 healing if they are met. Use it on the Rit who is dropping a spirit, an Ele as he is using Glyph of Lesser Energy, a Ranger as he rezes his pet or anyone using a signet, they get 51 health. Even without Divine Boon, at 9 Heal, with Gift of Health, you get 96 healing + 29 (if divine favor is at 9 as well) yielding 126 per cast.
3. The slower cast and long recast. 1 sec cast and 8 second refresh of SoR vs 3/4 cast and 5 refresh for GoH.
4. Gift of Health would disable the signet for 7 seconds.
Cheers,
TB
DarkGanni
When I monk for FoW I use Zb/prot as a healer position
Draginvry
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcady
but I do find that PUGs without any tank do better than ones with a tank
That depends on the tank. If your tank is the average Joe Wammo with a skill bar full of 8 sword attacks who goes charging into a group of 12 monsters...you are probably correct. But believe it or not, there are warriors out there who know how to tank. And even better, warriors who know how to properly aggro. But they probably aren't W/Mo.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo.
zwei2stein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draginvry
That depends on the tank. If your tank is the average Joe Wammo with a skill bar full of 8 sword attacks who goes charging into a group of 12 monsters...you are probably correct. But believe it or not, there are warriors out there who know how to tank. And even better, warriors who know how to properly aggro. But they probably aren't W/Mo.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo. Most of the time, is the idea of having a tank where it starts to go downhill.
Any warrior worth his slot in party would know that there is one situation where hacving tank is better than damage dealer: DoA. and even that is questionable.
Warriors are THE best damage dealers in game, failing to utilize one is ...
---
Anyway, good healing monk (read: does not overheal, manages energy ...) would be better than ops build.
Its not that prot is bad, quite oposite, but you need to move red bars up, in energy eficient way. Thats where hybrids shine since they do both and without loss of efectiveness.
Also, such low level pve as sanctum does not require good builds, proven by many succesfull pugs.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo. Most of the time, is the idea of having a tank where it starts to go downhill.
Any warrior worth his slot in party would know that there is one situation where hacving tank is better than damage dealer: DoA. and even that is questionable.
Warriors are THE best damage dealers in game, failing to utilize one is ...
---
Anyway, good healing monk (read: does not overheal, manages energy ...) would be better than ops build.
Its not that prot is bad, quite oposite, but you need to move red bars up, in energy eficient way. Thats where hybrids shine since they do both and without loss of efectiveness.
Also, such low level pve as sanctum does not require good builds, proven by many succesfull pugs.
Wish Swiftdeath
if you're the only monk healing/hybrid is the way to go, that or bring zb...
did i mention that life sheath fails?
did i mention that life sheath fails?
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draginvry
That depends on the tank. If your tank is the average Joe Wammo with a skill bar full of 8 sword attacks who goes charging into a group of 12 monsters...you are probably correct. But believe it or not, there are warriors out there who know how to tank. And even better, warriors who know how to properly aggro. But they probably aren't W/Mo.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo. no. you either do not understand the game at all. or you just dont know what types of builds are called. ALL frontline characters should be able to ball up foes. this is not tanking. tnaking is used in DoA and FoW. In tank 1 caracter who is only designed to stay alive aggroes everything and then the rest of the team nukes the crap out of it. frontliners are everywhere else in the game, they aggro the groups, ball them to a degree and deal tons of damage.
I could make the same criticisms about a lot of monks that I see who spam away their energy with Healing Breeze and Vigorous Spirit, thinking that they are somehow helping the team, when in reality they are only slightly more usefull than the aformentioned Joe Wammo. no. you either do not understand the game at all. or you just dont know what types of builds are called. ALL frontline characters should be able to ball up foes. this is not tanking. tnaking is used in DoA and FoW. In tank 1 caracter who is only designed to stay alive aggroes everything and then the rest of the team nukes the crap out of it. frontliners are everywhere else in the game, they aggro the groups, ball them to a degree and deal tons of damage.
elektra_lucia
I don't think people realise warriors do a lot of damage.
arcady
Wa/Mos do see that warriors do a lot of damage. The problem is that this is often all they can see.
Snow Bunny
Remember, healing vs. Prot can fall along these lines.
Orison of Healing vs. Reversal of Fortune. You get both early, they have comparable costs/casts/recharges (Yes, I know RoF has 1/4 cast but w/e)
Warrior A. Gets hit for 50 damage. You Orison him once for ~70. 5 Energy, and you healed through the damage,
Warrior B. Is about to get hit for 50 damage. You RoF him in time, damage is negated, and he gets healed for that 50. Essentially 100 health heal.
For the same amount of energy, one heals for 70 and the other heals for 100.
Guardian will save you a lot of energy healing through Eviscerates and dismissing them.
Orison of Healing vs. Reversal of Fortune. You get both early, they have comparable costs/casts/recharges (Yes, I know RoF has 1/4 cast but w/e)
Warrior A. Gets hit for 50 damage. You Orison him once for ~70. 5 Energy, and you healed through the damage,
Warrior B. Is about to get hit for 50 damage. You RoF him in time, damage is negated, and he gets healed for that 50. Essentially 100 health heal.
For the same amount of energy, one heals for 70 and the other heals for 100.
Guardian will save you a lot of energy healing through Eviscerates and dismissing them.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Remember, healing vs. Prot can fall along these lines.
Orison of Healing vs. Reversal of Fortune. You get both early, they have comparable costs/casts/recharges (Yes, I know RoF has 1/4 cast but w/e)
Warrior A. Gets hit for 50 damage. You Orison him once for ~70. 5 Energy, and you healed through the damage,
Warrior B. Is about to get hit for 50 damage. You RoF him in time, damage is negated, and he gets healed for that 50. Essentially 100 health heal.
For the same amount of energy, one heals for 70 and the other heals for 100.
Guardian will save you a lot of energy healing through Eviscerates and dismissing them. However, OP is playing in NM Riverside Province. Pretty much nothing there hits for 50. They don't even reliably hit for 35. The damage in NM Riverside is so low that orison would have been better than RoF.
The same trend holds true for Heal Vs Prot generally: The effectiveness of all the "good" prot skills is a function of the number and/or size of the damage packets coming in. What you get out of prot depends on what the monsters put into it for you. Below a certain level of monster offense, prot is less efficient than heal. The monster offense in NM Riverside is waaaaaaaaaaaay below that level. OP would have been better off with heal.
I might further add that MOST of PvE is also below that level of monster offense. Heal is at least as viable as prot, if not outright superior, for most PvE situations -- and almost all of the situations that the "average" player confronts just trying to reach the end of the NM mission sequence.
The common "obsession" around the forums with prot being infinitely superior to heal derives from the flawed assumption that whatever works best in high-end PvP automatically also works best in PvE.
Orison of Healing vs. Reversal of Fortune. You get both early, they have comparable costs/casts/recharges (Yes, I know RoF has 1/4 cast but w/e)
Warrior A. Gets hit for 50 damage. You Orison him once for ~70. 5 Energy, and you healed through the damage,
Warrior B. Is about to get hit for 50 damage. You RoF him in time, damage is negated, and he gets healed for that 50. Essentially 100 health heal.
For the same amount of energy, one heals for 70 and the other heals for 100.
Guardian will save you a lot of energy healing through Eviscerates and dismissing them. However, OP is playing in NM Riverside Province. Pretty much nothing there hits for 50. They don't even reliably hit for 35. The damage in NM Riverside is so low that orison would have been better than RoF.
The same trend holds true for Heal Vs Prot generally: The effectiveness of all the "good" prot skills is a function of the number and/or size of the damage packets coming in. What you get out of prot depends on what the monsters put into it for you. Below a certain level of monster offense, prot is less efficient than heal. The monster offense in NM Riverside is waaaaaaaaaaaay below that level. OP would have been better off with heal.
I might further add that MOST of PvE is also below that level of monster offense. Heal is at least as viable as prot, if not outright superior, for most PvE situations -- and almost all of the situations that the "average" player confronts just trying to reach the end of the NM mission sequence.
The common "obsession" around the forums with prot being infinitely superior to heal derives from the flawed assumption that whatever works best in high-end PvP automatically also works best in PvE.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon
The common "obsession" around the forums with prot being infinitely superior to heal derives from the flawed assumption that whatever works best in high-end PvP automatically also works best in PvE.
Moreover, the 'obsession' assumes correctly that what works in top-tier PvP either works best in PvE, or the PvE area in question is so easy it doesn't matter either way.
elektra_lucia
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcady
Wa/Mos do see that warriors do a lot of damage. The problem is that this is often all they can see.
They don't, because they bring too many things to protect themselves and not enough damage.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
Moreover, the 'obsession' assumes correctly that what works in top-tier PvP either works best in PvE, or the PvE area in question is so easy it doesn't matter either way.
Maybe it doesn't matter to you. Maybe you can play a prot bar anywhere in PvE with no problem. But clearly it matters to other people. If people can't get past an area, moving up to a more efficient builds matters. If someone's having trouble in NM Riverside, mocking them for being a noob, or calling the zone so easy that nothing matters (which really amounts to the same thing as calling them a noob; the implied subtext is: "You're so bad you couldn't beat a zone where your build doesn't even matter, noob!"), doesn't help them beat the zone next time. It just makes you an asshole. If that's all you've got to contribute, you might as well keep silent. As for giving the person who finds NM Riverside challenging actual advice that might help them, there's no reason at all to insist that they use a prot build because it works well for you in PvP when a heal build would be more efficient for the task THEY are trying to accomplish.
Whiskeyjack
Well if the damage is so low in riverside that it barley triggers prot's then LoD would easily clear up any dmg that your party was taking. I can't see the logic in deciding to switch to a full heal bar on the basis that the enemy is doing hardly any damage. Aegis, SoA etc still prevent dmg occuring and Lod clean's up whatever does get through. A heal bar on the other hand will probably be regularly overhealing, burning energy and teaching these "noob" monk's nothing about monking in the process.
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack
In any event, LoD IS a healing prayer. If LoD alone can deal with the damage in Riverside, that supports rather than refutes my point that healing is more efficient than prot in this sort of area.
Quote:
Quote:
Funny, thats what i was going to say. |
A heal bar on the other hand will probably be regularly overhealing, burning energy
Skill, not bar, determines overhealing. Since healing prayers heal for fixed amounts, you can always avoid overhealing through player skill alone. Moreover, even handled poorly with lots of overhealing, a heal bar is still going to be more efficient than a prot bar for NM Riverside. Quote:
No, I chose the scenario that OP started this thread with. A middling NM PvE mission. That it also happens to be the best case scenario for heal (and the worst case scenario for prot) is my entire point. You can change builds in town you know. You can select the optimal build for the challenge ahead. For NM Riverside Province, heal, heal, heal, condition removal, and more stupid heal is the optimal build. It's silly to insist that people should use a sub-optimal build for the mission THEY are trying to beat because you think they should be learning YOUR favorite one-size-fits-all build.
Quote:
Quote: I'm beginning to feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. |
Quote:
|
No, prevention is not ALWAYS better than cure. Prevention is only inherently better than cure in ONE situation: SPIKE. If the damage is large enough to kill the target before you get a chance to cure, obviously you should have tried to prevent instead. Outside of the spike situation, where both prevention and healing are viable options, whichever is more energy efficient is better. By-and-large, PvE is devoid of spike situations; you usually have more than ample time to respond to damage with 1 sec casts. So the question is: Which heals and/or prevents more damage per energy? As I've said too many times before now, that depends on the number and sizes of the damage packets coming in from your opponents. Above a certain level of opponent damage, prot is more efficient; below that level, heal is more efficient. For most of PvE, the opponent damage is below that level. For NM Riverside Province, it's way the bloody heck below that level.
For sure SOME prot skills are better when dealing with spike dmg, but prot can also be useful against pressure-you knew that right? Quote:
|
