Kaineng City- nightmare

nkaw

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

Fukuoka, Japan

Rt/

24 Oct 2007 at 14:32 - 1
Okay, so it has been just about a week since I started GW, and I just got my first Factions character to Kaineng City. She's a lvl 17 Ritualist/Ranger with 45 AR sets, and almost every time I go out out to any explorable area, I get my butt kicked SO hard.

Usually what happens is that as soon as a group of either Afflicted or Jade guys (about 8 or more) are aggroed, they seem to come for me and usually 3-4 shot me. To make it worse my PC seems to have a bit of problem handling the heavy graphic of this place and I am in half slow motion... I guess I still don't really understand the aggro system well in this game, but even if I just stand still in a distance w/o attacking or healing to see what happens, I still aggro.

During the combat I am usually too busy trying to defend myself by being inside the circle of the mage's anti-melee thingy or spawning defensive spirits etc, and barely have the time to go offensive although I find the channeling spells quite interesting and would like to explore more.

I read some of the posts about Factions but it seems like most people are finding Kaineng area an easy EXP farm place. Well... not for me... I am having a hard time even with max number of henchmen with me.
Would anyone be able to point out what seems to be wrong, is it the aggro, strategy, level, or am I simply bad lol...

Oh and by the way, is it possible to skip this city area and go to the forest or the Jade Sea?

Seren!ty

Seren!ty

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

[iDum]

R/E

24 Oct 2007 at 14:35 - 2
The main problem is your armor level, 45 is to low. Go to Kaineng Center (North of the Marketplace) and get some new armor there (60Ar).
That should make life a lot easier for you

Etta

Etta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Mancland, British Empire

24 Oct 2007 at 14:37 - 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
She's a lvl 17 Ritualist/Ranger with 45 AR sets
There're max armor crafters there at Kaineng, get a new armor set asap. Look up wiki for some easy to do quests around there and get to lv20 before you go any further.

Alexandra-Sweet

Alexandra-Sweet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

That one place with the trees, mountains and snow

Ember Power Mercenaries [EMP]

Me/

24 Oct 2007 at 14:39 - 4
Check Un-official Wiki, Official Wiki for guides for new players and how the AI works in this game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
Oh and by the way, is it possible to skip this city area and go to the forest or the Jade Sea?
Nope, no way to skip it and if you think Kaineng is hard, don't be surprised if you get owned in The Jade Sea or Echovald Forest.

kenichiukiya

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2006

Rt/

24 Oct 2007 at 14:41 - 5
Also check your health i.e. HP....enemy AI seems to go for those with lower health.

nkaw

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

Fukuoka, Japan

Rt/

24 Oct 2007 at 14:46 - 6
Oh... it's the armor. Hmm, don't they cost 1k per piece? That's a bit expensive for someone who only has about 4k I guess I could get the ones from those collectors around the area. But to farm the mobs for the tokens I guess I still need some decent armor to wear... oh well, I will try. Thanks for pointing that out!

And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow... and some are below level 15 and doing quests in the area. I guess they are on their way to other connected areas like Tyria or something.

Toutatis

Toutatis

Walking Wiki

Join Date: Nov 2006

Isle of Medication

Visitors from Aranna [VFA]

Me/E

24 Oct 2007 at 14:48 - 7
One of the first things you should do now that you're on the Canthan mainland is to get yourself into a set of max armor. From The Marketplace, head north and stay close to the coastline until you reach Kaineng Center. You can get some max armor there.

Another thing that will help you is bringing along both the monk and the ritualist henchmen. Both of them are capable healers and can do the majority of party support for you, which will let you focus a little more on damage.


And unfortunately, it is not possible to skip areas in Factions. To open up new areas, your only option is to complete the missions.

gremlin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2006

GWAR

Me/Mo

24 Oct 2007 at 14:49 - 8
The city is multi level in places that's how you sometimes get the enemies coming at you from above on ropes.
The agro circle is shown on the maps however if one of your party moves ahead or attacks then that causes agro, some bows have long range.
Also some groups are patroling anyway so may move into your agro circle.

The afflicted take a little getting used to and you better get used to them because there are a load of em.
Using a bow to pull one or two enemies is a good method but with heroes its almost impossible.
As they rush forward as you fire you end up firing and running away while the arrow is still in the air.
Heroes and real people make it a lot easier as you tell them to stand in a spot while you agro small numbers.

There is no way to avoid the city and get to the other areas besides ascending and being able to change secondary class will be usefull and that's all in the city.

Lagg

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

24 Oct 2007 at 14:50 - 9
Hi and welcome to Guild Wars!





You may want to read these articles (and sub-articles) in particular:



Do note that the Ritualist is generally considered to be a more "advanced" profession that takes longer to master and doesn't have a very distinct role, but is very versatile instead. Not that other professions are necessarily easier to play, just more straightforward (Warriors are melee fighters who can take a lot of damage, Elementalists are spellcasters who inflict a lot of damage, Monks are healers and protectors etc.).

The true beauty of Guild Wars is that it allows you to break the mold for each and every profession, but this process will take some time for you to master as well.



At this point, the best advice I can give you is to ask for help in-game and hopefully find a beginner-oriented guild that is willing to learn you the ropes.

It will take a lot of time for you to learn everything by trial and error, a helpful hand could speed up this process.



In the end: DON'T PANIC! (I would make this huge and red if I could)

Guild Wars is not a difficult game per se, only very elaborate (and sometimes confusing, even to veteran players), but one that is extremely rewarding in terms of time and effort invested.



Have fun and happy exploring!

Etta

Etta

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Mancland, British Empire

24 Oct 2007 at 14:53 - 10
You can get to Kaineng city from the Market place without having to fight anything, just take the back street. The same can be said about most of the "go there, run back, go over there again" quests in that area, minimum combat if you know your way around.

Also the enemies AI will taget the team member with the lowest armor and health, so that would make you their big fat target.

Corwin_Andros

Corwin_Andros

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

Wayward Wanderers

W/E

24 Oct 2007 at 14:55 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
Oh... it's the armor. Hmm, don't they cost 1k per piece? That's a bit expensive for someone who only has about 4k I guess I could get the ones from those collectors around the area. But to farm the mobs for the tokens I guess I still need some decent armor to wear... oh well, I will try. Thanks for pointing that out!

And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow... and some are below level 15 and doing quests in the area. I guess they are on their way to other connected areas like Tyria or something.
As far as not having enough for a full set of armor all at once. It's better to get a couple pieces if you can.. like torso and legs.. Those are the main target areas and the most often hit. I'd imagine your survivability would go up a bit just from upgrading those two parts first.


About the level thing.. Just because there are lvl 10s or whatever running around, doesn't make it the best idea. I'd imagine you'll find that most of those are characters from established players who could afford max everything as soon as they hit the area. As a new player without much of a bank account, I'd definitely advise you get to level 20 asap for the hitpoints. Low HP and low armor in KC is like wearing a huge neon sign that saya "EXTRA SQUISHY...KILL ME!!"

Mork from Ork

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

24 Oct 2007 at 14:57 - 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw

And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow...
The may have had a guildie run them through the island missions to get to KC early. From the market its a quick run to k center where they can get better armor and then go back to Shing Jea with an advantage for the harder quests.

Also - if you are in a guild you might have some of your guildies check your skill bar. They may have suggestions on early skills that can be more effectively used to help you survive. The right skills can make a huge difference.

Lagg

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

24 Oct 2007 at 15:02 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow... and some are below level 15 and doing quests in the area. I guess they are on their way to other connected areas like Tyria or something.

Getting Max Armor (60 for a Ritualist) really should be your top priority. Just save up your money from Quests and Missions, you'll get there soon.

Don't spend your money needlessly on Dyes, Tomes, Weapons or other luxury items. At this point, stick with getting Armor and Skills from the Trainers.


And don't mind the lower level characters who are already in Kaineng, most of them are veteran players rushing a new character to 20 as fast as possible (Factions is the fastest leveling campaign of the three).

nkaw

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

Fukuoka, Japan

Rt/

24 Oct 2007 at 15:05 - 14
Wow, I got loads of helpful replies here in a matter of minutes First of all thanks to Lagg for a very nice introduction and links, and everyone else for pointing out what has to be changed.

As for the aggro, it was a bit of a surprise to me that AI will generally go for someone with lowest health and AR, I think I really should get WoW out of my head and learn this new game as I tend to not look up those things and think the game systems are similar to WoW (which I played for about 2 years and recently quit. )

Nemo the Capitalist

Nemo the Capitalist

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Trust me you dont want to know my Chasms of Despair

Zaishen Brotherhood

N/Me

24 Oct 2007 at 15:35 - 15
yeah seriously get max armor for ur ranger +60 and use Sister Tai and Prof Gai bot h good support healers for u

after that use troll urgent and defensive skills lol u might live..

PS use longbow less deaths for u that way

always kill rits first Flesh of my flesh (annoying soft res used by enemies afflicted etc) is annoying and then monks

SotiCoto

SotiCoto

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2007

Drazach Thicket

Temple of Zhen Xianren [Sifu]

24 Oct 2007 at 15:47 - 16
You can get to level 20 without personally fighting at all... easily.


First of all... be selective about the henchies you bring with you. Take Sister Tai and Professor Gai while you're in the opening areas (until you get the second Monk Henchie or Heroes)... The rest in fact shouldn't be too important.

The route from the Marketplace to Kaineng Center only involves ONE "mandatory" fight with a small few afflicted, and even that can be avoided.
Kaineng Center has TONS of quests for you to do.... and strangely enough, quite a few either involve no fighting at all or just the one comparitively weak enemy.
Furthermore... if you kill the group of THREE Jade Brotherhood upon entering Waijun Bazaar under the first quest for Bujo (to get their capes), you can get the quest to neutralise ALL the Am Fah in Waijun Bazaar and enable you to walk through the entire area on one side totally without harm.... giving you access to complete even more quests.

If you're careful, the only fighting you'll have to do will be with very small groups, and the henchies alone can take care of those.

mr_groovy

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

24 Oct 2007 at 16:14 - 17
Best way to survive: Go around killing stuff so you can afford your first max (60 ) Armor. Best way to do this: Set your Rt up for Spirit Spirit spamming. Before combat, laydown 3+ spirits. Then target with ctr+ double click. Then let let the henchies + spirits take out the group. Repeat until done. Also do all the quests you can find. Lots of 3K exp quests makes you lvl 20 very fast.

street peddler

street peddler

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

24 Oct 2007 at 16:17 - 18
yeah factions sucks like that...they throw you up against lvl20 mobs at level 12..

mr_groovy

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

24 Oct 2007 at 16:22 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by street peddler
yeah factions sucks like that...they throw you up against lvl20 mobs at level 12..
Hmm strange all my Factions Chars were lvl 18 at Zen Dajiun. UR doing it wrong.

*tip do all the quests on the starter island. Also do all the secondary training quests. This will get you lvl 10+ on the first mission.

jhu

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2007

24 Oct 2007 at 16:27 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by street peddler
yeah factions sucks like that...they throw you up against lvl20 mobs at level 12..
not really a big deal. the henchmen can handle the mobs. i usually stay back and reap the xp they sow.

Mavrik

Mavrik

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

Alaska

24 Oct 2007 at 16:28 - 21
I always target the mages and mesmers of the group when fighting the Jade. When against the Afflicted, I target the ritualists and necromancers first. They seem to do the most damage.

YunSooJin

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

24 Oct 2007 at 16:35 - 22
just a heads up -

in most MMOs, as you 'grow' so to speak, you become more and more omnipotent, especially if you revisit older areas. This is not strictly true for Guild Wars. Your character will never be able to run around and solo level 20 monsters, with the exception of some specialized builds. You will never become 'godlike'. You can definitely become far far stronger through synergistic usage of skills, as well as better bars on both you and your heroes, but you never actually reach the point where you can just walk into an area with massive numbers of level 20 monsters and call down fire, rain, lightning and blow them all to tiny little bits.

Game just isn't like that. But for those who don't mind that particular loss, this game a lot more to offer exactly because it doesn't turn out that way.

Xiooua

Xiooua

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2007

Rt/

24 Oct 2007 at 17:05 - 23
Like others have said, getting max armor is your top priority, then you need to get to level 20. Which will be relatively simple since you're level 17 now. The Kaineng quests give 1k+ experience, so you'll get to 20 in no time. Also, most quests give gold rewards too, so you'll earn money in the process to afford armor.

If you want help around Kaineng with the quests, feel free to whisper me in game, my IGN is Lliessa D. I have nothing to do these days, so I'd be happy to help a fellow Ritualist.

Corwin_Andros

Corwin_Andros

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

Wayward Wanderers

W/E

24 Oct 2007 at 17:17 - 24
One other thing if you have all the campaigns... Once you hit lvl 20 in KC.. don't do any more quests there that don't put you towards your next mission. The reason I'm advising this is so that once you go into Nightfall and collect some heroes, you can use the remaining quests to level your heroes up nice and fast. The xp rewards in factions border on the ridiculous at times, and you can level a half dozen heroes up to lvl 20 there in a day's work.

mr_groovy

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

24 Oct 2007 at 17:21 - 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros
One other thing if you have all the campaigns... Once you hit lvl 20 in KC.. don't do any more quests there that don't put you towards your next mission. The reason I'm advising this is so that once you go into Nightfall and collect some heroes, you can use the remaining quests to level your heroes up nice and fast. The xp rewards in factions border on the ridiculous at times, and you can level a half dozen heroes up to lvl 20 there in a day's work.
Actually Don't get to lvl 20. Go straight to Elona get your hero's. Then go back and lvl u and your hero's with quest rewards. Hero's + good build == GG.

Corwin_Andros

Corwin_Andros

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

Wayward Wanderers

W/E

24 Oct 2007 at 17:37 - 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Actually Don't get to lvl 20. Go straight to Elona get your hero's. Then go back and lvl u and your hero's with quest rewards. Hero's + good build == GG.
Good point.. and it's pretty easy at that point too.. you can knockout the first 3 missions in Elona pretty easily for some decent xp and in only a quest or two be ready for the Elonan mainland too.

lol.. I've done that whole thing so many different ways it's hard to keep up with them all.

Rocky Raccoon

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

24 Oct 2007 at 19:06 - 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
Oh... it's the armor. Hmm, don't they cost 1k per piece? That's a bit expensive for someone who only has about 4k I guess I could get the ones from those collectors around the area. But to farm the mobs for the tokens I guess I still need some decent armor to wear... oh well, I will try. Thanks for pointing that out!

And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow... and some are below level 15 and doing quests in the area. I guess they are on their way to other connected areas like Tyria or something.
You can go back to the island and farm until you get enough money for the armor you need.

Shiishii Momo

Shiishii Momo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2006

I need a guild, R5 KOBD

N/

24 Oct 2007 at 20:07 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
Wow, I got loads of helpful replies here in a matter of minutes First of all thanks to Lagg for a very nice introduction and links, and everyone else for pointing out what has to be changed.

As for the aggro, it was a bit of a surprise to me that AI will generally go for someone with lowest health and AR, I think I really should get WoW out of my head and learn this new game as I tend to not look up those things and think the game systems are similar to WoW (which I played for about 2 years and recently quit. )
Welcome to GW and to Guru, my IGN is Shiishii Momo, I am on most nights at 1900 U.S. P.S.T. I would be happy to work with you a little on rit training, and I will give you the gold and materials needed to craft the max armor.

arcady

arcady

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

San Francisco native

Mo/P

24 Oct 2007 at 20:54 - 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkaw
And about getting to level 20 asap before going any further, I am confused because I see some level 10s or even lower in Keineng city, and they are Factions chars so they must've got there somehow...
People get run to Kaening so they jump off to Prophesies for cheaper costing armor (by getting run to Droknar's Forge) or jumping off to Nightfall for heroes or cheaper and better looking armor.

And sometimes people get run from one of those to get to Factions, and then get Faction armor making them appear to be Factions characters when they are not.

It is not at all hard to get there by level 10 if you are coming from Prophesies, or get run there from one of the other campaigns.


Beyond that, I'm sure you don't want to know how many of us can do the quests around there on a level 10 character. That may seem impossible now, but once you understand Aggro management in the GW style, the quests in that area are some of the easiest ones in the game. I bring my characters there to speed level them.


WoW tanks have it easy... in WoW the tank can 'taunt' the enemy and force them to attack the tank - the target which is the hardest one to take down. Very unrealistic feeling to it. Everytime I come back to GW after a jaunt in WoW I have to remember that I can't just stand next to the tank... I have to get out of the way of the incoming damage.

To shake aggro in WoW you run towards the melee, to shake aggro in GW you run away from it.

A GW tank has to grab up aggro by becoming a greater threat to the opposition than the target they desire to go after. This is hard to do, which is one reason why Warriors in PUGs are so bad... Henchmen warriors are usually better than player warriors.

wilebill

wilebill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mt Vernon, Ohio

Band of the Hawk

W/Mo

24 Oct 2007 at 22:50 - 30
1. For money go back to the mainland and farm the high end areas; make sure you did all the Island quests. When you have the money in hand, go get your max armor.

2. While on the island, get a Longbow, one that has no marksmanship requirement. Even as a caster you need a Longbow for pulling; and against Jade, you are probably better off staying at Longbow range until the hench have one or two of them down.

3. The hench can actually do most of your work, or all of your work for you if you stay to the rear and avoid putting a mana drain on your monk and spirit henchmen as they vainly try to keep you healed. Set yourself for healing and party support, nevermind damage; just keep the monks healthy and the hench can take down almost anything by themselves.

arcady

arcady

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

San Francisco native

Mo/P

24 Oct 2007 at 23:06 - 31
Since 7 henchmen are often enough to clean content in the Bukdek and Waijun areas, you can also often sit on one end of the map and flag your henchies to the other end where a mob is, letting them clean house, and then going in to collect the drops.

Or let the mob take you down on purpose, and then flag the henchies far enough out that they won't rez you, so they can finish the fight and not waste energy on foolish in combat rez's. Then when its over, get a rez, and collect.

Something I have not tried is letting myself stay down, and using the flags to move the henchies all over the zone clearing out everything. You can do this - once your down you can click on a henchie and see the world through their eyes, and then just use flags to move them. What I don't know is what will happen to drops and my XP if I do it.

This assumes you have Nightfall or GW:EN and thus access to flags.

Dragasa

Dragasa

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

where you least expect

24 Oct 2007 at 23:44 - 32
If you're low on cash there's always Collector armor: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Ritualist_collector_armor

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

25 Oct 2007 at 00:12 - 33
As many have suggested, you will need lvl 60 armor to survive. Also when making hench teams, try to ensure you have 3 healers or 2 healers and a protector, and 5 damage ones. It will be a lot better with heroes, but try this - in areas where there are 2 monk and a ritualist hench, take all 3 allong with kai ying, cynn, and another two ranged damage ones of your choice. you go as a communing rit with a painful bond spirit spike.

lg5000

lg5000

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Australia

25 Oct 2007 at 00:18 - 34
I noticed the lag too.. its annoying because its only in the keineng city area, everywhere else, its fine.

Master Sword Keeper

Master Sword Keeper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Dead Isle

Farmers Of Woe [FoW]

W/

25 Oct 2007 at 02:58 - 35
heh heh Made a Factions monk. By the time i was lvl 6 i was in Nightfall.

Explanation: A group of lvl 20's helpin me. LAWL

It's tough sometimes to get max armour that's why there's been a huge Bitching session about the loot scaling and what not. That's why It's hard to afford 1k armour at best. Best advice is... Check the Wajjun Bazarr for quests that you can just run around for. And always start with the "Search for a cure" that way Am FAh wont kick ur butt whilst you level up.

Have fun.

Lord Sojar

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

25 Oct 2007 at 03:06 - 36
I recommend using HAX. All veteran players use them. You can find them using this method.

Goto www.guildwarsguru.com/forum

Troll and use terms such as "WTF" "noob" and "anet suxors" as much as possible.

Pester Gaile with lame reasons as to why you need 7 heroes and want to be antisocial in a social game environment.

Continually point out how only your opinion matters, and make threads that express this ALL THE TIME. If a mod closes your thread, open 4 in its place, because obviously they were closing it because they are noobz and don't know how to play.

Don't get max armor, only FoW armor will do, otherwise you are unworthy and will be a noob foREVAR!


On a more serious note though, make sure you have max armor, and find a veteran player that is actually willing to be social and "help" you... I know, help is such a big word anymore... but I think you have a 19.253856132% chance to find a helpful player.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

25 Oct 2007 at 06:40 - 37
You DID do the attribute quests in ran musu gardens and seitung harbor rite?

Yesterday I rolled my monk again for kicks, she is my oldest character and she has been through a LOT of funky stuff. It only turned out she still needed her attribute quests, so 1/5 year after I created her I thought it maybe was time for those extra attribute points *GOD I felt stupid :P*

nkaw

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

Fukuoka, Japan

Rt/

25 Oct 2007 at 07:46 - 38
Thanks again for the tips everyone. I've read all and already did some changes when I was on today, it seems to be a lot better.

About having heroes to control, unfortunately I don't have Nightfall yet but I am thinking of getting it. As some pointed out, being able to control them and pulling a few mobs with a ranged weapon instead of having to worry about henchies getting into the aggro range of a whole bunch of mobs at once would make the game a lot better.

And about aggro, yes in WoW it sure is a lot easier and simpler to tank, although you do find it a bit annoying to do it because there will always be those DPS classes who are a bit too concerned about topping the DPS meter and they end up outthreatting you .

I seem to have a lot to learn in this game, but I am already finding it quite interesting