The elite PvE skill 'Ursan Blessing' has been the focus of quite some attention lately with opinions ranging between 'best thing since sliced bread' and 'remove all PvE skills from the game'. Of particular interest has been the use of several ursan players in the Domain of Anguish elite area which UB converts to a stomping ground for anybody who knows how to press 1 - 2 - 3.
PvE only skills are somewhat overpowered by default, that's exactly the idea why they were introduced and why they are PvE only. However, you cannot have it too good, ridiculously overpowered skills ruin a multiplayer game experience as effectively as cheats would. In combining UB and DoA we have a case of a ridiculously overpowered skill but the reason for that doesn't lie directly in UB which is only 'reasonably' overpowered for most of the game. The culprit is another PvE 'skill', the Lightbringer title track which provides additional benefits in DoA. The effects of LB are also balanced by the same criteria - a high ranking player is somewhat overpowered while displaying the title. However, these two PvE only mechanics combine multiplicatively which means that a player with UB and LB title goes beyond overpowered all the way to broken.
Then how can this be fixed? If we rebalance UB with DoA in mind, UB will be a really crappy skill everywhere else. My suggestion to resolve the situation is to either:
(a) change UB (and other blessings) so that you can only be in ursan form if you are displaying your Norn reputation title, or
(b) change UB (and other blessings) so that if you are not displaying your Norn reputation title, UB works as if you had zero ranks in that title.
Of these two, (a) is the more extreme option and requires more coding (you have to take into account title switching while in form) whereas (b) is very easy to implement. Both of them meet the objective of preventing excessive cumulation of PvE bonuses.
About my motivation for doing this - I'm not trying to kill the bear but to save it. As it is now, it is really broken and there will be a nerf, it's just a question of when and which kind. The solution that I am suggesting would end the most glaring abuse while leaving the skill unaffected for the rest of the game.
Edited by Celestial Beaver: It's probably worth linking to the existing thread also discussing this topic which can be found here. We'll leave this thread open for now.
How to 'nerf' the bear
tmakinen
Effendi Westland
(c) Make it a ranged attack so it is effected by blinds/Line of sight.
It is not only DoA that has been made a joke because of this skill. Almost anything in HM can be owned by mindless pressing C+1.
It is not only DoA that has been made a joke because of this skill. Almost anything in HM can be owned by mindless pressing C+1.
pumpkin pie
I am just wandering if OP have "exploited" the good old bear?
Why I am wandering about the motives behind wanting to nerf the bear. I don't see the point in getting rid of it because, if you want a more challenging game, DON'T BRING URSAN BLESSING WITH YOU. since you choose to bring that skill with you.... well lol...
Besides
1) I have not done DoA before and do not know that Ursan Blessing is actually that powerful, yes have it unlocked, but I did not use it because I prefer my other elite.
2) If Ursan blessing is indeed that powerful, I would love for it to remain and when its time for me to abosolutely must complet the DoA quest I would love to have that advantage too.
so i think /not signed.
Why I am wandering about the motives behind wanting to nerf the bear. I don't see the point in getting rid of it because, if you want a more challenging game, DON'T BRING URSAN BLESSING WITH YOU. since you choose to bring that skill with you.... well lol...
Besides
1) I have not done DoA before and do not know that Ursan Blessing is actually that powerful, yes have it unlocked, but I did not use it because I prefer my other elite.
2) If Ursan blessing is indeed that powerful, I would love for it to remain and when its time for me to abosolutely must complet the DoA quest I would love to have that advantage too.
so i think /not signed.
A11Eur0
People have the choice whether to use ursan blessing or not. Just because some other group is doing it, doesn't mean it has ANY effect on how you play your game, how you enjoy your game, and the rewards you get from your game. Joy of instances.
lishi
I think people flamed pretty much enough on the others thread.
Basicly there are 3 kind of people
1) People who dont care
2) People who say "if you dont like it dont use it"
3) People who want a balanced game.
Im pretty sure anet is on 3 group. at least they was before nightfall release.
Basicly there are 3 kind of people
1) People who dont care
2) People who say "if you dont like it dont use it"
3) People who want a balanced game.
Im pretty sure anet is on 3 group. at least they was before nightfall release.
tmakinen
Please don't make this another 'nerf/don't nerf UB' thread, we have those all around the place. Instead, we should discuss that given that UB is broken in DoA and thus a barn-sized target for the nerfbat (TM), what would be the path of action with the least game-wide consequences while still addressing the core problem. I've tested UB here and there and while being good elsewhere it's game shattering only in combination with the LB effect (and arguably, but to a lesser extent with Vanguard rep vs. charr and Dwarven rep vs. destroyers - all of which my suggestion would fix). As I demonstrated elsewhere, when the LB bonus doesn't apply there's a build with very similar characteristics and performance as the bear while being totally PvP valid - the touch ranger. When you consider potential remedies, keep that build in mind as a reference point and ask yourself whether your proposed fix makes the bear better or worse than it.
pumpkin pie
how can you charge straight into wanting to nerf the bear when the "if the bear should be nerf isn't even decided" yet....
Avarre
Remove UB, all PvE skills and play-affecting titles. They don't make the game better.
If anet can't maintain a single set of skills that are balanced in all parts of the game, then they have failed at maintaining the game design that was originally in place. If that single set of skills was balanced everywhere, it would be a testament to balanced PvP as well as balanced PvE.
Bring back some of the playskill required by removing broken skills (ie: just about all PvE skills) and mechanics (of enemy mobs and zones).
If anet can't maintain a single set of skills that are balanced in all parts of the game, then they have failed at maintaining the game design that was originally in place. If that single set of skills was balanced everywhere, it would be a testament to balanced PvP as well as balanced PvE.
Bring back some of the playskill required by removing broken skills (ie: just about all PvE skills) and mechanics (of enemy mobs and zones).
tmakinen
It is not me wanting to nerf the bear. If you didn't get my point from the original post, I don't take sides either way. All I'm saying is that given the current state of the game a nerf to UB is highly likely (they nerfed Seed of Life and TNTF! already, SY! is still another potential target). I'm working in damage mitigation mode, trying to find the smallest nerf that would bring UB below ANet's radar. So far only Effendi has done a productive contribution ...
Edit: Avarre, that is one take on the issue but it just isn't going to happen (at least in GW1). Let's try to stay realistic in what we wish and it might even have an effect
Edit: Avarre, that is one take on the issue but it just isn't going to happen (at least in GW1). Let's try to stay realistic in what we wish and it might even have an effect
pumpkin pie
O.o
i think i'll do DoA tonight.
i think i'll do DoA tonight.
bungusmaximus
Taking away their immunity for shutdown would be nice. Just don't over-nerf, that would be a pain for Ursanlovers. It would be nice if ursan would still see play as long as it's for certain situations and not for the entire game, just like many other skills.
assassin shaun
/not signed
no way if u want to have the same power amount as everyone else then unlock the skills ureself and stop moaning!
no way if u want to have the same power amount as everyone else then unlock the skills ureself and stop moaning!
tmakinen
Bears are already less immune to shutdown than a touch ranger since a bear practically must attack between skills to keep energy up whereas a toucher never attacks. Just for gits and shiggles, I found out that those pesky jotuns are pawned hard by a toucher who laughs at everything that they manage to throw at him 
Edit: shaun, did you read what I wrote? No? That's what I though as well ...
Edit: shaun, did you read what I wrote? No? That's what I though as well ...
Reflect
Make ursan strike deal dmg that is not amor ignoring ..
tmakinen
Again, touch ranger's 'damage' is not just armor ignoring, it completely bypasses all kinds of magical protections as well, and doesn't trigger any 'on damage' effects that are beneficial for the target.
Mr. G
oh theres a thread here....?
sorry i didn't notice, was to busy actually playing leetist areas where you need the trinity....
sorry i didn't notice, was to busy actually playing leetist areas where you need the trinity....
milan
Displaying the title will only affect realm of torment/DoA.
I honestly don't see a way to nerf this elite without it dissapearing off skill bars forever.
1 - Remove armor ignoring, We don't even know what type of damage UB does.
2 - Ranged Attack, this has possibly the best potential.
3 - Disallow PvE elite skills in 'elite' areas. - Not sure how this could be done, it's also an option to resolve the DoA, Deep, Warren etc but it doesn't resolve the whole issue that people are complaining about.
In all likelyhood it will be 1 and 2 with a couple of other preconditions to be met as well.
It will be interesting to see how they do it. Will show if they have learnt anything in the last two years about their PvE player base.
I honestly don't see a way to nerf this elite without it dissapearing off skill bars forever.
1 - Remove armor ignoring, We don't even know what type of damage UB does.
2 - Ranged Attack, this has possibly the best potential.
3 - Disallow PvE elite skills in 'elite' areas. - Not sure how this could be done, it's also an option to resolve the DoA, Deep, Warren etc but it doesn't resolve the whole issue that people are complaining about.
In all likelyhood it will be 1 and 2 with a couple of other preconditions to be met as well.
It will be interesting to see how they do it. Will show if they have learnt anything in the last two years about their PvE player base.
legion_rat
/unsigned With UB as a Sin I might actually get a group for DoA. Instead of the cookie cutter set of players that i watch enter I can actually be one of the cookies. For some of us its not a balance thing is a chance thing,
~the rat~
~the rat~
cellardweller
The biggest problem with the bear is that it replaces a skills set completely and can be kept up indefinitely. The changes I would make are:
1) All primary attributes are set to 0 while in bear form
2) Zealous weapons do not function in bear form
3) Remove "or Deal" from the energy gained description.
This gives you "God Mode" for 10-30% of the time rather than "above average mode" 100% of the time which would result from nerfing the ursan skills.
1) All primary attributes are set to 0 while in bear form
2) Zealous weapons do not function in bear form
3) Remove "or Deal" from the energy gained description.
This gives you "God Mode" for 10-30% of the time rather than "above average mode" 100% of the time which would result from nerfing the ursan skills.
Star Gazer
option d) remove QQers from the game and let people play the way they want to
Alex Dimitri
/notsigned
We finally have at our disposal skill that can make counter to HM spikes of foe`s
and some people want to make it disapear, i don`t understand did u become Masochist along the way, i shure the hell feel underpowered when i got spiked by bosses that make 400-550dmg even ordinary footman in HM make huge damage, and DoA is story for itself.Plus the first time some people can actually get in teams!!! And YES i`m passionate about defending UB even if i don`t actually use it (used it only during the quest in GW:EN).
Good skill that definetly shouldn`t be nerfed !!!!
We finally have at our disposal skill that can make counter to HM spikes of foe`s
and some people want to make it disapear, i don`t understand did u become Masochist along the way, i shure the hell feel underpowered when i got spiked by bosses that make 400-550dmg even ordinary footman in HM make huge damage, and DoA is story for itself.Plus the first time some people can actually get in teams!!! And YES i`m passionate about defending UB even if i don`t actually use it (used it only during the quest in GW:EN).
Good skill that definetly shouldn`t be nerfed !!!!
Sekoria
The problem is that, for some classes, UB is the only way to find a group for some areas. If anet overnerf Ursan Blessing, I wish good luck to any assassins (for example) to find a team for DoA.
I tought about putting 0 in primary attribute, however that will lessen the effectiveness of some classes, and not some others so it's not very fair to everyone. The way it is now, you can play UB differently from one class to another by using the primary attribute.
Since many people whine that "Ursan Blessing is a whole build in one skill" I suggest the following way to modify it :
-Lessen the damage UB does / make it -3 instead of -2.
-Enable players to put chosen skills in the remaining empty slots.
That way, the blessings will still be useful and enable more customization.
Anyway, if anet nerf only Ursan Blessing, DoA could still be doable via Volfen or Raven.
I tought about putting 0 in primary attribute, however that will lessen the effectiveness of some classes, and not some others so it's not very fair to everyone. The way it is now, you can play UB differently from one class to another by using the primary attribute.
Since many people whine that "Ursan Blessing is a whole build in one skill" I suggest the following way to modify it :
-Lessen the damage UB does / make it -3 instead of -2.
-Enable players to put chosen skills in the remaining empty slots.
That way, the blessings will still be useful and enable more customization.
Anyway, if anet nerf only Ursan Blessing, DoA could still be doable via Volfen or Raven.
pumpkin pie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Star Gazer
option d) remove QQers from the game and let people play the way they want to
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Cebe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pumpkin pie
noob question: what is QQ ?
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A glossary of abbreviations and terms used in Guild Wars by players can be found here.
Star Gazer
yeah, QQ = whiners, cryers. This is most commonly used when people try to force their playstyle on others. Hence, the relevance to this post 
tmakinen
There seems to be an awful lot of people who fail at basic reading comprehension ... this thread is not about whether UB should be nerfed or not, everybody who thinks so, please go elsewhere to continue the pointless ranting.
Cellardweller, I quite like your idea. Although it's much more radical than a 'minimal' nerf, it would be in the overall vein of nerfs that promote clever play over mindless spamming. However, except for certain missions and quests that are on timer, players can usually choose their fights, and you cannot shorten the duration of the bear form below that of a typical single fight without it becoming totally useless. Hence it wouldn't solve the actual issue, people would just repeat UB - fight - wait for UB to recharge instead of playing alternatively UB and their normal skill bar (especially since you're incapacitated by zero energy when the bear wears out).
Cellardweller, I quite like your idea. Although it's much more radical than a 'minimal' nerf, it would be in the overall vein of nerfs that promote clever play over mindless spamming. However, except for certain missions and quests that are on timer, players can usually choose their fights, and you cannot shorten the duration of the bear form below that of a typical single fight without it becoming totally useless. Hence it wouldn't solve the actual issue, people would just repeat UB - fight - wait for UB to recharge instead of playing alternatively UB and their normal skill bar (especially since you're incapacitated by zero energy when the bear wears out).
shinslw
I duno what to say but it's a good skill, but anet will toned it down sooner or later.
Glad that I am able to use it now b4 it gets nerfed once that day comes I will be moving on to another game. Too much nerfs for good skills which allows outcasted classes to be accepted in teams.
Guess my rit gets no love
Glad that I am able to use it now b4 it gets nerfed once that day comes I will be moving on to another game. Too much nerfs for good skills which allows outcasted classes to be accepted in teams.
Guess my rit gets no love
Avarre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by assassin shaun
/not signed
no way if u want to have the same power amount as everyone else then unlock the skills ureself and stop moaning! |
This is how the original idea went;
Play with your skillbar.
Area too hard.
Tweak your skillbar with other skills of equal power.
Another area too hard.
Improve as a player, playing your build better to beat things
Success!
This is how the game is slowly going instead;
Play with your skillbar.
Area too hard.
Add lolzpve skills to skillbar.
Everything dies!
...no player improvement...
Halp how2beat Chromatic Drakes, they are too hard!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Star Gazer
option d) remove QQers from the game and let people play the way they want to
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alex Dimitri
We finally have at our disposal skill that can make counter to HM spikes of foe`s
and some people want to make it disapear, i don`t understand did u become Masochist along the way, i shure the hell feel underpowered when i got spiked by bosses that make 400-550dmg even ordinary footman in HM make huge damage, and DoA is story for itself.Plus the first time some people can actually get in teams!!! And YES i`m passionate about defending UB even if i don`t actually use it (used it only during the quest in GW:EN). Good skill that definetly shouldn`t be nerfed !!!! |
Why even play the game if there's no challenge and no incentive to develop as a player? Do you play it like a graphic novel? Do you like to make pve numbers get bigger?
In summary, the only way to nerf this skill (and quite a few other offender PvE skills) would be to remove them from the game and feed the person who implemented them to a large bear.
HayesA
Wait wait wait, lemmie get thsi right here. I'm just a little confused.
You chaps actually WANT to use the holy trinity to death, and force everybody to adhere to it??
No, screw you. I'm happy with Ursanway. I think it's FUN. And it isn't un beatable, I have been in a few groups where we over aggroed, and we died. It can happen.
/not signed
You chaps actually WANT to use the holy trinity to death, and force everybody to adhere to it??
No, screw you. I'm happy with Ursanway. I think it's FUN. And it isn't un beatable, I have been in a few groups where we over aggroed, and we died. It can happen.
/not signed
bungusmaximus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Avarre
>snip<
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Sorry, couldn't help myself, I have a self proclaimed right for 1 troll post on every 10 useful ones :P
Snow Bunny
Avarre's pretty much spot on.
o noes!
searing flames is gone! whatever will we do?
[email protected]
It's obvious from the people who want the bear, and it's obvious from certain other threads that people don't care about the experience anymore, they care about the titles to get, and the reward. Otherwise, you'd enjoy the challenge of HM, instead of enjoying that you can trounce everything with a bear and do it in 5 minutes.
Learn to enjoy this game.
o noes!
searing flames is gone! whatever will we do?
[email protected]
It's obvious from the people who want the bear, and it's obvious from certain other threads that people don't care about the experience anymore, they care about the titles to get, and the reward. Otherwise, you'd enjoy the challenge of HM, instead of enjoying that you can trounce everything with a bear and do it in 5 minutes.
Learn to enjoy this game.
Tyla
/notsigned
FINALLY i can complete doa and get the ape in my HoM...
holy trinity is boring,and as same as the UBway,it reqs mostly no skill
yet it needs only 4 professions,and is boring and slow
UBway is quicker and actually can get all profs through
however - a couple of skill tweaks that wont completely rend it useless will be....kinda nice.
and im not leaving guilds again,just for DoA.
either that or limit its use to DoA only
FINALLY i can complete doa and get the ape in my HoM...
holy trinity is boring,and as same as the UBway,it reqs mostly no skill
yet it needs only 4 professions,and is boring and slow
UBway is quicker and actually can get all profs through
however - a couple of skill tweaks that wont completely rend it useless will be....kinda nice.
and im not leaving guilds again,just for DoA.
either that or limit its use to DoA only
Avarre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HayesA
You chaps actually WANT to use the holy trinity to death, and force everybody to adhere to it??
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tmakinen
*Loooooooong sigh*
Apparently, the topic of this thread was way too complicated for most people to grasp, and it has degenerated into the same kind of ranting as other UB related 'discussions'.
Since people seem to be completely unable to stay on topic, could some admin close this thread, please?
Apparently, the topic of this thread was way too complicated for most people to grasp, and it has degenerated into the same kind of ranting as other UB related 'discussions'.
Since people seem to be completely unable to stay on topic, could some admin close this thread, please?
bungusmaximus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
*Loooooooong sigh*
Apparently, the topic of this thread was way too complicated for most people to grasp, and it has degenerated into the same kind of ranting as other UB related 'discussions'. Since people seem to be completely unable to stay on topic, could some admin close this thread, please? |
Cebe
Closed at OP's request.