Given a 'normal team, not a specialized one, in general play rather than farming some special area...
Is [card=big]Barrage[/card] likely to be wasting several of its hits?
In other words, how likely is it that the average use of the skill is going to hit more than 3-4 targets? Unless you have a team focused on grouping large mobs together, is Barrage overkill?
Would it be better to take [card=big]Volley[/card] and some other elite to get the same end result that Barrage would deliver, barring special zones where Barrage is particularly useful?
Barrage versus Volley?
arcady
Chthon
Less bonus damage and a TWO SECOND recharge. Anywhere barrage is worth using in the first place, those weaknesses are going to be pretty glaring, especially the recharge.
That said, I do use splinter/volley/broadhead for some dungeons just because I want to splinter, but I know I'll need the broadhead for the end boss. I may have to reconsider this now that splinter has been nerfed so damn hard.
That said, I do use splinter/volley/broadhead for some dungeons just because I want to splinter, but I know I'll need the broadhead for the end boss. I may have to reconsider this now that splinter has been nerfed so damn hard.
iridescentfyre
The biggest X factor here is where its being used. I would have to say in the larger proportion of PvE environments, you're not going to be hitting more than 3 enemies at a time on average, and sometimes no more than 2. In a place like Vizunah Square, it makes more sense to bring it given the relatively small areas where tons of enemies show up.
I would say Barrage is a wasted elite in most of the places it sees use, especially with Volley out there now.
I would say Barrage is a wasted elite in most of the places it sees use, especially with Volley out there now.
Marverick
Volley is almost always better than Barrage on Rangers. 4 arrows is all you need because Splinter Weapon on an R/Rt only affects 4 attacks since you can't get 14 Channeling Magic.
Only exception is if you have Orders to make your bow attacks actually do significant damage themselves.
Barrage might be better on Rt/R since they can get 5 attacks, and also because Rits have jack**** for elites. But as a Ranger you have more useful skills for your elite.
Only exception is if you have Orders to make your bow attacks actually do significant damage themselves.
Barrage might be better on Rt/R since they can get 5 attacks, and also because Rits have jack**** for elites. But as a Ranger you have more useful skills for your elite.
arcady
Nod.
I've always used Barrage on my ranger heroes, but Friday I made my first ranger (after 2 years in this game, I got my first ever max-stat green, a bow - so it needed a character
), and this afternoon I got far enough into Nightfall to cap Barrage and get Volley out of GW:EN. After seeing Volley in play with me rather than the AI in the driver's seat, I started wondering about the topic here.
Looks like Barrage is only useful in special situations, like Vizenuh Square. Volley however can be handy anytime mobs might clump in small numbers - which is fairly common.
The counter argument is the recharge time, but I'm not sure if that's enough of a counter to make it worth spending my elite slot on Barrage. I think it's time to make a new 'default' build for my ranger heroes.
I've always used Barrage on my ranger heroes, but Friday I made my first ranger (after 2 years in this game, I got my first ever max-stat green, a bow - so it needed a character
), and this afternoon I got far enough into Nightfall to cap Barrage and get Volley out of GW:EN. After seeing Volley in play with me rather than the AI in the driver's seat, I started wondering about the topic here.Looks like Barrage is only useful in special situations, like Vizenuh Square. Volley however can be handy anytime mobs might clump in small numbers - which is fairly common.
The counter argument is the recharge time, but I'm not sure if that's enough of a counter to make it worth spending my elite slot on Barrage. I think it's time to make a new 'default' build for my ranger heroes.
tekDragon
Well.. barrage just got a slight damage increase in the latest update.
Witchblade
i didnt try Volley yet but the 2s recharge seems too much 
i'll prolly go for Volley when i'll need to pack Broad Head Arrow ^^
i'll prolly go for Volley when i'll need to pack Broad Head Arrow ^^
AaronSwitchblade
Wow, it had never actually occurred to me - I mean I've seen volley but always thought of it as "worse" Barrage. I didn't think about it not being elite, and it's rare that I hit more than 3 enemies anyway.
Thanks for this, I have changes to make when I get home from work!
Thanks for this, I have changes to make when I get home from work!
Elrien Silentfoot
Well, maybe it's just because I have a 500ms ping, but I personally can only use barrage every 2nd attack anyway, which more or less satisfies the 2s requirement.
Volley stacks better with splinter weapon. 4 attacks for 4 arrows. Additionally, casting SW before you pull, then pulling with volley, then casting SW again before using volley a second time should make that 2 second delay unnoticable.
Ok, so you lose 5 damage per arrow. But instead you get to take a different elite.
Barrage just isn't what it used to be.
Volley stacks better with splinter weapon. 4 attacks for 4 arrows. Additionally, casting SW before you pull, then pulling with volley, then casting SW again before using volley a second time should make that 2 second delay unnoticable.
Ok, so you lose 5 damage per arrow. But instead you get to take a different elite.
Barrage just isn't what it used to be.
zwei2stein
Volley > Barrage, since you can use it with actually good elites.
Performance Pudding
they only made volley to make people get gwen... to bad they coulda just made new armor
Lhim
Too bad volley removes all preparations. Just before they started the GWEN preview weekend they listed all the skills on wiki. At first there wasn't going to be any preparation removal with volley. They found out about their mistake though.....Just imagine incendiary arrows/apply poison + volley
Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often.
Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often.
Aldric
Overall i think Volley is preferable to barrage. There are certain builds and areas where Barrage would suit but the usefulness of a Volley/Elite combination is too good for me to pass up.
R/D Ebon Dust Aura/Volley is what I'm using in a number of current guild games. I can just circle around plinking off 2 or 3 arrows at once which virtually shuts down enemy melee leaving everyone else time to concentrate on monk/caster killing.
The occasional Enchant removal is a hard punch in the face though
R/D Ebon Dust Aura/Volley is what I'm using in a number of current guild games. I can just circle around plinking off 2 or 3 arrows at once which virtually shuts down enemy melee leaving everyone else time to concentrate on monk/caster killing.
The occasional Enchant removal is a hard punch in the face though
Elrien Silentfoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by deank81
Too bad volley removes all preparations. Just before they started the GWEN preview weekend they listed all the skills on wiki. At first there wasn't going to be any preparation removal with volley. They found out about their mistake though.....Just imagine incendiary arrows/apply poison + volley
Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often. You can only carry 1 prep at a time.
And honestly I wonder just how devastating a preparation could be.
With poison arrow you can pretty much spam poison at will (and I've read reports that poison tip signet works on all barrage attacks... I haven't tested it and I have my doubts, but if the reports are correct, then barrage might just as well work with AP too). Barrage + Mark of Rodgorts + conjure flame spreads burning very nicely. Barrage just got a 5 point boost in damage, so read the wind doesn't seem like it would push it over the top either.
Burning arrow could work with volley, but not Barrage. However, the burning effect can be replicated and warmongers weapon more or less replicates the interrupt function AND already works with barrage (works great on groups of terrorweb dryders, btw).
Explosive arrow is another possibility, but splinter weapon FAR outclasses it in terms of damage.
Scavenger's focus could stack with volley, but would overall be less powerful than barrage and read the wind.
That leaves ignite arrows. Honestly this looks like the preperation that is the most open to abuse to me, but again the added damage would be dwarfed by splinter weapon.
Edit : forgot about melandrus arrows. It's unlikely that a whole group of targets will all be carrying enchantments. That leaves the bleeding effect which is less damaging than poison. Plus it would only work with volley, since the prep is elite.
So the only thing that I can think of is that Anet doesn't want preperations and weapon spells stacking WITH barrage, or that they don't want to give rangers such versatility without having to resort to the skills of a secondary class (conjure flame, mark of rodgorts, epidemic, splinter weapon, warmonger's weapon...).
Anyway, to be honest I haven't given volley a try yet. I'll have to do that, because there's no reason not too. It's just that I also don't use barrage all that often. You can only carry 1 prep at a time.
And honestly I wonder just how devastating a preparation could be.
With poison arrow you can pretty much spam poison at will (and I've read reports that poison tip signet works on all barrage attacks... I haven't tested it and I have my doubts, but if the reports are correct, then barrage might just as well work with AP too). Barrage + Mark of Rodgorts + conjure flame spreads burning very nicely. Barrage just got a 5 point boost in damage, so read the wind doesn't seem like it would push it over the top either.
Burning arrow could work with volley, but not Barrage. However, the burning effect can be replicated and warmongers weapon more or less replicates the interrupt function AND already works with barrage (works great on groups of terrorweb dryders, btw).
Explosive arrow is another possibility, but splinter weapon FAR outclasses it in terms of damage.
Scavenger's focus could stack with volley, but would overall be less powerful than barrage and read the wind.
That leaves ignite arrows. Honestly this looks like the preperation that is the most open to abuse to me, but again the added damage would be dwarfed by splinter weapon.
Edit : forgot about melandrus arrows. It's unlikely that a whole group of targets will all be carrying enchantments. That leaves the bleeding effect which is less damaging than poison. Plus it would only work with volley, since the prep is elite.
So the only thing that I can think of is that Anet doesn't want preperations and weapon spells stacking WITH barrage, or that they don't want to give rangers such versatility without having to resort to the skills of a secondary class (conjure flame, mark of rodgorts, epidemic, splinter weapon, warmonger's weapon...).
malko050987
I prefer Barrage because I like spamming it until I'm left without energy >.>
That said, I have BHA in my skillbar most times now, because I'm doing HM and casters need to be shut up.
That said, I have BHA in my skillbar most times now, because I'm doing HM and casters need to be shut up.
blakk
As you all know, the answer to this is based on one thing: what you are equipping these two skills to do?
Lets do the pound for pound comparison
BARRAGE
5 Energy
1 second recycle
Elite Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17 damage if they hit.
VOLLEY
5 energy
2 second recycle
Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.
I am not one of the people who can do the micro math for skills. I can do the simple stuff:
In 2 seconds, Barrage can hit 12 targets at the cost of 10 energy at+17 damage
Add a Zealous string and well there is no cost
In 2 seconds, Volley can hit 3 targets at the cost of 5 energy and +8 damage.
Add a zealous string and the cost is 3 energy.
Where will you most likely face a mob of 6 targets?
Where will you face a mob of 3 targets?
Ok finding a mob is easy, but for these skills to be effective, the mob will have to stay in the adjacent range.
The thing to consider is this: Barrage’s limitation is that it is an elite. Any non-elite skill that will empower barrage will also empower volley.
In my humble opnion, the answer to the questions is this revolves around Barrage. If you are willing to take barrage and punp it up somehow then you should take volley too.
It is a hero/sidekick (Batman/Robin, Yogi Bear/Boo-Boo) relationship. =D
Lets do the pound for pound comparison
BARRAGE
5 Energy
1 second recycle
Elite Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17 damage if they hit.
VOLLEY
5 energy
2 second recycle
Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.
I am not one of the people who can do the micro math for skills. I can do the simple stuff:
In 2 seconds, Barrage can hit 12 targets at the cost of 10 energy at+17 damage
Add a Zealous string and well there is no cost
In 2 seconds, Volley can hit 3 targets at the cost of 5 energy and +8 damage.
Add a zealous string and the cost is 3 energy.
Where will you most likely face a mob of 6 targets?
Where will you face a mob of 3 targets?
Ok finding a mob is easy, but for these skills to be effective, the mob will have to stay in the adjacent range.
The thing to consider is this: Barrage’s limitation is that it is an elite. Any non-elite skill that will empower barrage will also empower volley.
In my humble opnion, the answer to the questions is this revolves around Barrage. If you are willing to take barrage and punp it up somehow then you should take volley too.
It is a hero/sidekick (Batman/Robin, Yogi Bear/Boo-Boo) relationship. =D
Elrien Silentfoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by blakk
Lets do the pound for pound comparison
BARRAGE
5 Energy
1 second recycle
Elite Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17 damage if they hit.
VOLLEY
5 energy
2 second recycle
Bow Attack. All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.
I am not one of the people who can do the micro math for skills. I can do the simple stuff:
Quote:
Add a Zealous string and well there is no cost Wrong. At best, you can get a bow firing once every 1.33 seconds (normally it's once every 2.0 seconds for a shortbow or flatbow). However, the way that Barrage recharges (after the end of the last attack) will make those attacks occur at less than once every 2 seconds. To put it another way, taking an attack speed boost causes you to make one normal attack inbetween barrages.
Furthermore, it's up to 7 (target + 6 adjacent) targets at once, which in ideal situations would grant you a net bonus of at least 2 energy (or 4 energy with a reasonable number of expertise points)
Quote:
I mentioned incendiary arrows... just called it burning arrow by mistake. |
In 2 seconds, Volley can hit 3 targets at the cost of 5 energy and +8 damage. Add a zealous string and the cost is 3 energy. It would be 4 targets, and with expertise probably a gain of 1 energy in ideal situations. Again the 2 second recharge is a bit deceptive. Probably once every 3 seconds, depending on how the recharges work (I haven't tested it yet, I'll admit).
lennymon
Elrien....
Preps are what makes a bow based ranger. First off Deank meant one prep or the other. Poison tip signet works with barrage or any other attack making the very *first arrow* which hits cause poison. You only left off the most glaringly broken combos... consider the ramifications of volley + glass arrows or incendiary arrows... no preps will ever work with it. The reason they don't allow preps is for the very same reason that splinter weapon just got a nerf, hmm? If you're in a situation where splinter barrage is *actually* the right thing to bring you'll still have 2 barrages per ability to reapply splinter... hence a big reason volley is superior with splinter. You don't waste your elite spot and volley times better with splinter. Edit: perhaps barrage pet groups could try splinter volley with heal as one instead of comfort?
malko050987
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennymon
Edit: perhaps barrage pet groups could try splinter volley with heal as one instead of comfort?
Oooh... that's an interesting idea. I'll see if my guildies want to give this a try. It would take off some pressure off the monk, which is good in HM ^_^
blakk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
All fine so far.
Wrong. At best, you can get a bow firing once every 1.33 seconds (normally it's once every 2.0 seconds for a shortbow or flatbow). However, the way that Barrage recharges (after the end of the last attack) will make those attacks occur at less than once every 2 seconds. To put it another way, taking an attack speed boost causes you to make one normal attack inbetween barrages. Furthermore, it's up to 7 (target + 6 adjacent) targets at once, which in ideal situations would grant you a net bonus of at least 2 energy (or 4 energy with a reasonable number of expertise points) It would be 4 targets, and with expertise probably a gain of 1 energy in ideal situations. Again the 2 second recharge is a bit deceptive. Probably once every 3 seconds, depending on how the recharges work (I haven't tested it yet, I'll admit). I DID say I wasn't big on teh micro math, I see your point. My point was based on the recharge times of the Skills themselves, not the overall damage in the actual 2 secs.
A Leprechaun
I generally use both, I think the only reason for skills like these is for the times when you have 5+ foes close together, if it was always just 4 foes close together I would rather just use a prep and BA or something and take them down 1 by 1 or Barrage + Volley them to oblivion. So I say Barrage is the best out of the two , but there are better options when facing small groups.
~A Leprechaun~ Elrien Silentfoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennymon
|
As for glass arrows, well, I've only had nightfall for a month and it honestly slipped my mind. Taking a look at it, I don't exactly see what the problem would be. Niether the damage nor the bleeding is terribly difficult to create using other skill combinations.
Quote:
From the looks of it, SW was nerfed to stop someone from hitting, say, 6 or 7 targets 4 times in a row using a single attack.
Quote:
As for 12+ targets, cant think of anything besidesin PVE with big pulls in tombs with a real group but that's completely irrelevant. My statement was perhaps not quite clear (or obvious) enough... SW was nerfed because of it's glaring effectiveness at taking out the guards at vod... not pve. So, your induction based on a false assumption is correct.|
If you're in a situation where splinter barrage is *actually* the right thing to bring you'll still have 2 barrages per ability to reapply splinter... hence a big reason volley is superior with splinter. You don't waste your elite spot and volley times better with splinter.
Indeed.
Horseman Of War
glass arrow + volley + my favorite weapon spells = my ranger "D
Elrien Silentfoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseman Of War
glass arrow + volley + my favorite weapon spells = my ranger "D
Huh?
I'm going to guess that you're trying to imply that using glass arrows and a weapon spell and volley all together would be overpowered. You may be right, but it would be pretty easy to change it so you can only use a preperation OR a weapon spell at once. Clarissa F
I'd rather carry volley, because, as mentioned before, it doesn't take up an elite slot. I'd rather spread degen with Poison arrow/burning arrow and have volley for mob pressure, than deal with the condition removal of barrage, which negates any preps you might want to use. Volley gives you the choice for elites with conditions. Barrage takes that option away.
Grammar
Volley: All your Preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at up to 3 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +1...8 damage if they hit.
I get the impression from a few of the posts here, such as the posts directly above me, that some people are forgetting that Volley also removes all preps. Just thought I'd point that out for clarification.  And my answer to the OP's question: neither. Omniclasm
[skill]Ebon Dust Aura[/skill] + Volley
Nuff' said.
lennymon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot
From the looks of it, SW was nerfed to stop someone from hitting, say, 6 or 7 targets 4 times in a row using a single attack. |
BTW Glass Arrows is in Factions.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Omniclasm
EDA+volley=win
lol, volley+splinter+Ursan Blessing = win too ;P
edit (and not because of splinter weapon OR volley) |