flags are completly and utterly useless...I don't see why anyone bothers to use them. Manually clicking them is inprecise, keyboard command has 1-3 second delay meaning that it's easy to use the key to select a flag click a area and instead of placing the flag yuo run there.
And EVEN if you get the flags up the hero's and henchmen ignore them the second anything comes in range. Flag so they stay in the wards they run out anyway. Flag them so they are spread out they all run to a single point to fight. I ran intot his problem against the guy in shards of orr dungeon, I flaged them all 1-3 feet apart so they could still heal each other and such ran and grabbed the boss, came back and they were all standing on the exact same spot attacking the guy and sure enough wiped out all at once.
How are you supposed to use the flag when it's impossible to keep placing them and they ignore where you place them.
Good example I was running into, I had dunkaro with balthazars spirit and other things to protect him standing in front taking all the attacks from the snowmen in HM lair. I flagged the rest of the henchmen 1-3 feet behind him, but still close enough to fight, what do they do, every one of them runs forward and stands EXACTLY where DUnkaro was so instead of one being attacked everyone was being attacked.
How are you supposed to use flags?
wolfwing
Brianna
Yep, I'd flag Jora in place while vanquishing, and Jora would run off and do whatever she wanted.. Now Jora doesn't come with me anymore.
Same with other heroes, just not as bad as melee ones.. but oh well. I also find it hard to click the dang flag and move it around when I urgently need to, but I blame my mouse for that, I just click the flag icon and it takes about 5 clicks before it activates. Unless others are having this problem too.
Same with other heroes, just not as bad as melee ones.. but oh well. I also find it hard to click the dang flag and move it around when I urgently need to, but I blame my mouse for that, I just click the flag icon and it takes about 5 clicks before it activates. Unless others are having this problem too.
wolfwing
I've had the problem myself, the problem is...there is a invisible border around the flag buttons untill you click them, but it LOOKS like you can click the entire thing, but if you click too far up or down or to the side you click on the border and it doesn't register. And keyboard doesn't help due to that fricking 2 second delya, why is it I can cast a spell imediatly but I can't activate a flag right away? If there is a delay for balance between mouse and keyboard then put the delay between putting the flag up and them moving...really annoying to go.
F5, then click where I want party to go so I can pull, I start running, I click again THEN they run, or if I"m too fast it some times takes 2-3 clicks before the flag is actually placed.
F5, then click where I want party to go so I can pull, I start running, I click again THEN they run, or if I"m too fast it some times takes 2-3 clicks before the flag is actually placed.
Kook~NBK~
I've put all my heroes on "Guard", that way they're not prone to run off after every red blip that shows up on the spin map.
wolfwing
It's not them running off I have them on guard too, it's just when I have them spread out so when we engage a enemy they arn't all going to be killed by Spirit rift or such, and I turn around and they are all clumped togethre so they can figh the enemy thats the problem.
Bryant Again
I flag all heroes+henchies with V, and unflag with X. Makes some pretty quick and responsive "oh shit" flagging.
That aside, when I know I'm going into something that can easily kill my group if clumped, then I'll separately flag my heroes in spots away from the party. The henchies are on their own in this situation.
I've only known them to bunch up when I'm chasing a melee attacker all over the place with another melee character.
That aside, when I know I'm going into something that can easily kill my group if clumped, then I'll separately flag my heroes in spots away from the party. The henchies are on their own in this situation.
I've only known them to bunch up when I'm chasing a melee attacker all over the place with another melee character.
wolfwing
Do you get a 1-3 second delay between v and when you can place the flag? I always get a second or two delay meaning I can't hit F5 and imediatly left click as the flag isn't available to place for a few seconds.
Jongo River
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brianna
I also find it hard to click the dang flag and move it around when I urgently need to, but I blame my mouse for that, I just click the flag icon and it takes about 5 clicks before it activates. Unless others are having this problem too.
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On the subject of whinging about flags, I really wish there was a function to just flag the henchies. Maybe a shift-click on the global "all" flag - it would come in really useful for missions that need a party split.
azizul1975
so far i dont have any issue with this flagging thing.... by the way i normally use flag to make the hero/hench pull target....
Stealthc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jongo River
The flag icon is pretty unresponsive to me too! It seems like if you click it too fast, it just doesn't work (but based on what wolfwing said, I'm probably clicking the edge of the icon). What makes things worse, is that other times it has worked, but the icon/pointer hasn't changed, so you don't know until you try to place it.
On the subject of whinging about flags, I really wish there was a function to just flag the henchies. Maybe a shift-click on the global "all" flag - it would come in really useful for missions that need a party split. |
Jongo River
Cool, thanks. I didn't know that. 
Ben-A-BoO
Of course I too have a problem with flagging and heroes,
Especially my ele's love to chase enemies or fire off their spells at long range distance while i am just setting up the wards and traps ...
It's called "Mad Ele Disease" in our alliance (only henchman seem to be rather resistant).
The worst of it all is that Heroes don't recognize wards.
I am spamming the flag just to keep em close to me.
I had it to often that a dervish storms into my wards and my healers immediately kit out of the ward to get killed.
But hey,
The good thing is ... humans are not replaceable.
Timebandit
Especially my ele's love to chase enemies or fire off their spells at long range distance while i am just setting up the wards and traps ...
It's called "Mad Ele Disease" in our alliance (only henchman seem to be rather resistant).
The worst of it all is that Heroes don't recognize wards.
I am spamming the flag just to keep em close to me.
I had it to often that a dervish storms into my wards and my healers immediately kit out of the ward to get killed.
But hey,
The good thing is ... humans are not replaceable.
Timebandit
silv3rr
Lol all this time I thought I was the only one having trouble with clicking the flags... thought it was my shaky hands or what not...
bifter
Thing that gets me is that they'll kite out of defensive wards, but stand still in a meteor shower. Nuts.
You can make flags kind of work reasonably well with some practice and obsessive micromanagement, but it is neither easy nor intuitive. I get best results by fanning them out in a semicircle around the target pre-aggro (rather than in a straight line), and it usually works out okay. You need to be prepared to release some flags if the aggro comes at the extreme end of your group.
Some heroes are worse than others. Most of mine are fine, with the exception of Master of Whispers, who seems to insist on running in to melee range to cast (nothing on his bar that would warrant this). Master of Whispers dies a lot.
You can make flags kind of work reasonably well with some practice and obsessive micromanagement, but it is neither easy nor intuitive. I get best results by fanning them out in a semicircle around the target pre-aggro (rather than in a straight line), and it usually works out okay. You need to be prepared to release some flags if the aggro comes at the extreme end of your group.
Some heroes are worse than others. Most of mine are fine, with the exception of Master of Whispers, who seems to insist on running in to melee range to cast (nothing on his bar that would warrant this). Master of Whispers dies a lot.
Arduin
Enlarge the compass via the options menu. Makes every red dot stand out better and give you larger flag buttons too.
Belicosos Finos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brianna
Same with other heroes, just not as bad as melee ones.. but oh well. I also find it hard to click the dang flag and move it around when I urgently need to, but I blame my mouse for that, I just click the flag icon and it takes about 5 clicks before it activates. Unless others are having this problem too.
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CHunterX
Something like this:
mr_stealth
The problem with trying to use flags in a hurry, is that the buttons register use on mouse click release instead of the click. If you are in a rush to get a flag down, by the time you let pressure off the mouse button the cursor likely isn't over the flag button anymore and nothing happens.
Sha Noran
Is this like, a serious thread? Flags are one of the most important aspects of successfully henching anything. No wonder everyone fails everything and blames the heroes, wow.
xDusT II
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Is this like, a serious thread? Flags are one of the most important aspects of successfully henching anything. No wonder everyone fails everything and blames the heroes, wow.
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It get's quite frustrating when you try flag your heroes behind a wall so they won't get hit by projectiles, and they just ignore the flag and move into the firing line of the enemy.
The distance that a hero should venture when they are flagged should be drastically reduced. You should not have to flag a hero in a ward just to watch him run straight out of it.
tmakinen
I would trade my elemental sword for an additional toggle button that changed the hero/hench positioning between the normal and a dispersed formation, where each of them would keep a nearby range to each other.
Now if you had a set of programmable formation buttons each of which you could program by placing flags relative to your own position and the way you're facing, and the ability to either pin a formation to a place or let it follow you, keeping the relative distances and angles, working with H+H would suddenly become a small slice of heaven
Now if you had a set of programmable formation buttons each of which you could program by placing flags relative to your own position and the way you're facing, and the ability to either pin a formation to a place or let it follow you, keeping the relative distances and angles, working with H+H would suddenly become a small slice of heaven
CHunterX
I'd like something along the lines of "Ranged Combat" in KoToR 2. Stand in one spot and don't move at all, only use Ranged magic or attacks.
Sha Noran
I really have no idea how anyone fails with H+H. They never do anything that I don't let them do.
Cargan
formation controls? being able to place your heroes individually gives you infinitely more control than generic formation buttons.
I keep all my heroes on guard, monks on passive. Never do I get a hench or hero running off to attack something that is out of range unless I have manually asked them to cast a skill. only problem is if the party is wiped out while you have asked a hero to use a skill they will run off to the target until they do so. so dedicated they are :P Same thing with res. if you ask a hero to res but another one does it first, the res will stay checked and they won't do anything else until you uncheck it. it would be nice if it checked for failed failed skill and classed it as the hero having used it.
Other than that, I don't have any problems. Could be that I've just gotten used to it and find micromanaging heroes just as easy as managing my own skills. You really have to get used to it fast if you're playing warrior or else your casters just follow you straight into the fray.
I keep all my heroes on guard, monks on passive. Never do I get a hench or hero running off to attack something that is out of range unless I have manually asked them to cast a skill. only problem is if the party is wiped out while you have asked a hero to use a skill they will run off to the target until they do so. so dedicated they are :P Same thing with res. if you ask a hero to res but another one does it first, the res will stay checked and they won't do anything else until you uncheck it. it would be nice if it checked for failed failed skill and classed it as the hero having used it.
Other than that, I don't have any problems. Could be that I've just gotten used to it and find micromanaging heroes just as easy as managing my own skills. You really have to get used to it fast if you're playing warrior or else your casters just follow you straight into the fray.
Alexandra-Sweet
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wolfwing
flags are completly and utterly useless...I don't see why anyone bothers to use them.
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Tarkin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wolfwing
And EVEN if you get the flags up the hero's and henchmen ignore them the second anything comes in range. Flag so they stay in the wards they run out anyway. Flag them so they are spread out they all run to a single point to fight. I ran intot his problem against the guy in shards of orr dungeon, I flaged them all 1-3 feet apart so they could still heal each other and such ran and grabbed the boss, came back and they were all standing on the exact same spot attacking the guy and sure enough wiped out all at once.
How are you supposed to use the flag when it's impossible to keep placing them and they ignore where you place them. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Now if you had a set of programmable formation buttons each of which you could program by placing flags relative to your own position and the way you're facing, and the ability to either pin a formation to a place or let it follow you, keeping the relative distances and angles, working with H+H would suddenly become a small slice of heaven
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How i flag my heros?
If foes have a huge ignore armor damage output i flag them in a half circle... and i call target in the primary target in dangerous order and release them...
i fear... spliter weapow... ...
or
I flag all them a bit away and and i run and take agroo (i am a ele(hero monk use SB on me(but i dont hold the agroo... it only to break the first foes spell wave))) because my "team" build dont fear melle...
Works wonders... i working in hard mode this days...
Heros need two new functions... >>spread<< to avoid AeO and >>hold togheter<< to help with wards... my heros run like stupid from foes outside wards... i hate this
Sorry my weak english...
Blackhawk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CHunterX
Something like this:
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ValaOfTheFens
I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent. 
Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on.
Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day. I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk).
Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on. Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day.
I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk).
Mavrik
I use flags all the time though usually the main flag for the whole group. Set them to guard so they don't run after you is all. I usually do this when venturing ahead to pull aggro or something.
unfortunatly my minions do not obey flags lol...
unfortunatly my minions do not obey flags lol...
Ctb
Quote:
| Especially my ele's love to chase enemies or fire off their spells at long range distance while i am just setting up the wards and traps ... |
I got in the habit of flagging the entire group 1.5x the aggro radius behind me, then releasing the flag just after I pulled. Needless to say, on my non-tank characters this can get awfully tricky.
Quote:
| Thing that gets me is that they'll kite out of defensive wards, but stand still in a meteor shower. |
Quote:
| I really have no idea how anyone fails with H+H. They never do anything that I don't let them do. |
/ignored
Abedeus
I just wish you could have something like in Spellforce (first chapter, dunno what about SF2):
You are a great hero and you have minions and sidekicks. You can arrange them as you wanted, for example in a two lined formation or in a circle/half circle - they protect most vulnerable creature or melee protect rangers who protect mages. This way you aggro monsters and they crash on your melee, rangers/paragons use attacks to help with killing monsters and monks, ritualists and so on are in the middle, healing and aiding other people.
Man, that would be sweet.
You are a great hero and you have minions and sidekicks. You can arrange them as you wanted, for example in a two lined formation or in a circle/half circle - they protect most vulnerable creature or melee protect rangers who protect mages. This way you aggro monsters and they crash on your melee, rangers/paragons use attacks to help with killing monsters and monks, ritualists and so on are in the middle, healing and aiding other people.
Man, that would be sweet.
Quaker
The flags have an "agro bubble" around them, much the same as your own agro bubble. The H&H only stand right by the flag when they are not engaged in doing something. This agro-bubble area can be thought of as their "post".
If the heroes are set to "fight" they will leave their post if required to attack an enemy (but return when the attack is over)
If they are set to "guard" they will only go as far as the edge of their post to attack.
If they are set to "avoid combat", they will still go to the edge of their post to use non-attack skills. For example, a Monk hero set to avoid, will still go to the edge of their "post" (agro-bubble) to heal someone.
In your example, you said you placed the flags 2 or 3 feet apart. This would mean that the agro-bubbles (posts) overlapped, so when the H&H went to attack, they could easily end up in the same spot.
When placing your flags you need to allow for this agro-bubble by setting them farther away than the spot you want. This may mean you may want to flag the monks an aggro-bubble behind the rest, for example
If the heroes are set to "fight" they will leave their post if required to attack an enemy (but return when the attack is over)
If they are set to "guard" they will only go as far as the edge of their post to attack.
If they are set to "avoid combat", they will still go to the edge of their post to use non-attack skills. For example, a Monk hero set to avoid, will still go to the edge of their "post" (agro-bubble) to heal someone.
In your example, you said you placed the flags 2 or 3 feet apart. This would mean that the agro-bubbles (posts) overlapped, so when the H&H went to attack, they could easily end up in the same spot.
When placing your flags you need to allow for this agro-bubble by setting them farther away than the spot you want. This may mean you may want to flag the monks an aggro-bubble behind the rest, for example
Tarkin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent.
Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on. Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day. I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk). |
Deal with heros and henchs are a art... not wrong with them but you need some exp... with them...
Cargan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens
I used to have this problem alot, especially with Zhed and Sosuke. I discovered the problem was that I had alot of skills that only dealt damage to adjacent foes and so they'd do their best to get adjacent.
Also, I know it makes things easier but don't lock targets for casters until you get somewhat close to your flag. Melonni and Koss usually wait until my aggro bubble touches them to act but Dunk and pals will Leeroy into a mob I'm pulling if I have a target locked on. Henchmen are more of a problem than heroes. Stefan went off my mini map when I was doing Iron Mines the other day. I wish monk henchies were on auto passive. Enemies don't take kindly to being staffed by a caster and I get tired of rezzing Alesia or Lina(Kihm is the smartest hench monk). |
Also agreed about the enemies not taking kindly to monks wanding them. Hero monks get attacked a lot less when they're on passive.
Quite often I notice that when heroes are pinned in one place while you run on, then you unpin them when they're nearer the edge of the compass, they run the wrong way for a bit before turning around and coming back to you. Maybe because the Heroes line of sight is shorter they just find it harder to find you? :| To be honest, I do the same if I end up out of compass range of someone and try to find them. I run one way to see if I can see them, and if I don't I run the other way. Surely heroes are not supposed to be so human-like? :P
You can't see me
Venture Range for flags needs to be within the heros personal agro range around the flag stand.
That's all that needs to be done.
That's all that needs to be done.
The Way Out
Like brian, I use the V pattern... which rocks.... however, I only do this with three prot monks, because they don't get wiped as easily due to AoE... and if there is AI spiking... you don't have to worry... one of the monks all of a sudden become a tank (lmao)
wolfwing
Well the delay I'm talking about isn't the you hold your mouse and move it I'm talking about F5 to select a flag and the second delay between me hitting F5 and the flag apeparing to be placed, if I hit fast, like I tend to do in a chaotic battle I just end up running to the wrong spot with the flag uselessly still waiting to be placed.
And something I've been noticing the last few days is that some hero's/henchmen lag way behind the party, or I will avoid a group and the hero's will attack something out of their agro bubble. Had this yesterday on way to Arachni Haunt. I was standing at edge of the group opening a chest, there was a group just outside my bubble but no where near enough to agro, suddenly I see a wand/staff attack fly OVER my head from the direction opposite of the enemies and engage them, now they weren't agroing me so how the heck did a hero that was further away from them then me suddenly decide to attack. Oh and I alwys have them on guard.
Oh and another annoying thing is that they won't always move right away. I've had this happen tons of times fighting Duncan where I see spirit rift popping up I flag the group to move, and everyone but Dunkaro or a monk moves out of the range and Dunkaro stays there casting what ever spell he wants then moves JUST too late to get out of range and down he goes. I've seen this countless times. They don't move when you want them too, and they move when you don't.
And something I've been noticing the last few days is that some hero's/henchmen lag way behind the party, or I will avoid a group and the hero's will attack something out of their agro bubble. Had this yesterday on way to Arachni Haunt. I was standing at edge of the group opening a chest, there was a group just outside my bubble but no where near enough to agro, suddenly I see a wand/staff attack fly OVER my head from the direction opposite of the enemies and engage them, now they weren't agroing me so how the heck did a hero that was further away from them then me suddenly decide to attack. Oh and I alwys have them on guard.
Oh and another annoying thing is that they won't always move right away. I've had this happen tons of times fighting Duncan where I see spirit rift popping up I flag the group to move, and everyone but Dunkaro or a monk moves out of the range and Dunkaro stays there casting what ever spell he wants then moves JUST too late to get out of range and down he goes. I've seen this countless times. They don't move when you want them too, and they move when you don't.
wolfwing
Is it me or has Anet screwed with the AI again, fighting all the minotaurs and such in large groups used to be easy, now I'm wasting the entire fight chasing after every single stupid enemy because the hero's are too busy fleeing at the slightest attack to them in melee to either cast spells or keep the enemies in the range of the spells.
pumpkin pie
tips: must always use flags with the proper combat mode
if you have them on fight mode they will run away when there are enemies near by.
description of fight combat mode
Fight: The hero will attack any enemy in combat with the party and any called targets. The hero will charge ahead of the party if necessary
Guard: The hero will attack any targets that the party is attacking, but only if it doesn't require the hero to leave the guarded area, ie the player controlling the hero or the flag.
Avoid Combat: The hero will never attack and tries to avoid enemies. The hero will use non-attacking spells as usual
if you have them on fight mode they will run away when there are enemies near by.
description of fight combat mode
Fight: The hero will attack any enemy in combat with the party and any called targets. The hero will charge ahead of the party if necessary
Guard: The hero will attack any targets that the party is attacking, but only if it doesn't require the hero to leave the guarded area, ie the player controlling the hero or the flag.
Avoid Combat: The hero will never attack and tries to avoid enemies. The hero will use non-attacking spells as usual
arcanemacabre
I don't really have any problems with the heroes not obeying flags. However, I definitely hate that 2-3 second delay with the keybound "flag all." I have mine set to the Tab key, since my cycle target is assigned to one of my many mouse buttons. Yeah, there is definitely a delay, and it is quite aggrevating at times, especially if you need to get heroes moving quickly, such as in Oola's Lab with the turrets.