Lets make a definition of "Grind" within Guild Wars!

I never actually answered this question:

Most Titles are Grind by design.

I also consider the 10k Luxon/Kurzick faction requirement to be Grind, not because it's hard, but because it breaks from the established route of simply being able to go to the next mission.

The Big Question: Does the grind in GWEN count?

It could be considered Grind because it puts a time barrier to get access to armor and NPCs.

On the other hand, it's not denying access to geographic parts of the game, just cosmetic parts, or is that too fine a distinction?

Why? This affects you how? Why is it important? It really annoys me to have things barricaded off honestly. Prophecies was perfect imho. Could go pretty much anywhere if you could find yourself a way to get there and through pretty much any mission if you could survive it. At the same time you could play it in order if you so prefer, or out of order and go back and pick up what you missed when you felt like it. Freedom > Linearity. All this assumes having played it through once in order to get the best out of the story, its just after some 3+ times it really was kind of nice to do it in the order you wished.

Not a big deal and even sort of off topic. Its just I never understood that line of thinking. It was a disappointing development in all three subsequent editions for me.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

agree. couldn't have put it better myself.......really. I'm bad with words

P.S. - when i read the caption for your profile image it sounds like , the puss......in boots.

I would agree with this definition and the key word is "repetative". Over and over you do essentially the same thing. I think watching a movie over and over consecutively would be a grind. The point I think to all of this is less grind in a game is generally better. I like variety and the achievements to the game should be less about putting time into these repetitive tasks.

Mordakai hit the nail on the head with the statement that grind cannot be standardized. I think MOST people would agree killing a slime 1000 times to access the next room in a dungeon would be grind, but there may be someone that considers it a challenge.

Although the repetition & lack of fun are common in the definition they are still fluid in determining what is "grind" I don't know if people should even use the term since it's so subjective and instead state what & why they don't like certain features or parts of a game.

Aye, but that didn't keep me from trying to pin down a basic definition.
Agreed, to often people say "This is GRIND!" without explaining WHY they think it is. Too be sure, there is Grind in Guild Wars, and it would be good for the developers to hear that so maybe there will be less grind in GW2...

What about grinding to get a req9 ele sword...? Is that uber grinding?

Well you did just ask if grinding was grinding

So yes in that case, it is indeed grinding.

I asked if that were uber grining?... I see the humor is lost... <sigh>

Yes, I agree we need degrees of grinding. I suggest using areas of the game as indicators:

Pre-searing Grinding = easy
Factions Grinding = Medium
FoW Grinding = Hard
Mallyx Grinding = Legendary?

(take with shaker of salt)

WTB q9 ele sword, 100k

No, not really a grind.

Mindless and hard work aren't mutually exclusive, you can have someone digging ditches for 16 hours a day, and it's mindless, but it's also hard work.

If it's got a title related to it, then there's a good chance it's grind. There are a few things that don't have a title specifically related to them, like green farming or trying to cap that stupid HH elite in proph, which are still grind. There are also a few titles that aren't necessarily grind.

Superior Rune of Vigor.

This question is why you're not going to have much success here. Grind is mostly subjective, a state of mind. Whatever you don't like doing in game which you are forced to do to play the game is a pretty good definition of grind, but that varies so much from player to player.

definitely true. Flipping burgers for 16 hours IS hard work because it's so damn tedious & long. Just because the qualifications for something are low doesn't make it easy. Many people can use a shovel, few can handle doing it for so long.

Shovels are cool, but grinding is completly different

My definition of 'grind'

A repetitive task done continuously for rewards like titles, armor, weapons, money etc.

Putting it into context:
"Jill grinded Asuran points all day..."

I totally agree. Its going to vary in definition from player to player. I enjoy farming (not grinding to me) but I hate to create a new character and run him/her all the way through the storyline again. To me even though its playing the game its still grinding since I have done it so many times already and I know exactly what to expect.

The reason I enjoy farming is not for the money or drops (even though it nice), it to see if I can come up with a way to solo certain areas. This is very challenging and entertaining to me.

So I don't think you can come up with a concrete definition of grind. It's too subjective.

To some this is simply playing the game so to them its not grind. I think that a person's definition of grind is directly related to what that person perceives as fun.

What is Grinding?
Grinding is the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to achieve your goal.

Types of Grinding
- Maxing most titles
- Farming

Perception
Grind for one person may be a fun activity for another and classifing any activity as grind may vary on one's mood.

Why People Grind?
Most people grind to boost one's self-esteem, self-efficacy, and relax, but some do it to earn gold/item to give to someone as a present.

Grinding to me:
Anything that puts me to sleep after doing the same long, dull activity many times in a row with minimal gain per time. Exceptions may be made when I'm powered by caffeine.

EOTN reputation titles, as well as SS/LB and faction, in regards to PvE skills. When max titles give more advantage than "average" ranks, even if they're PvE only(LFG for ursanway R8 norn or higher only!), this is grind. Period.

For me, it's activities that are boring but that "needs" to be done, like when I got my SS and LB titles on my necromancer. Farming, to me, isn't grinding since I actually ENJOY farming. So yeah.. what is repetitive and bores you but still at some point eventually "needs" to be done = grinding.

Grind is not subjective at all. It is repeating an activity X times or for X amount of time in order to obtain Y reward. That's it.

There are different kinds of grind, and the perception of those different kinds of grind is entirely subjective. For instance, I love Tetris. One of my favorite games of all time. I will flat out admit that game is nothing but grind - the end reward being a higher score, a time passer, or simply the satisfaction of getting better. However, because I find it fun, and because I think the rewards are worth it, I have no complaints. Others may disagree. That's why it's subjective, but the truth of the matter is, it's still grind.

No, grind isn't subjective, it's rather matter-of-fact. Having no issue with the grind is a much different matter than saying it doesn't exist. In GW, grind is defined the same, but is often followed by the qualifier: you don't have to do it.

With that, I don't think the question of grind is really the right question. No, I think the right question is: What do you have to do in GW? What exactly is "required?" What is the end goal everything must invaribly lead up to?

Elite/Prestige Armor?
Just max armor?
Max items?
Max titles?
Max power?
Becoming PvP-ready with a PvE character? (as the end result being PvP)
Just beating the last mission?
Beating every mission w/bonus?
Doing the same in Hard Mode?

Just playing the game to have fun?

What exactly is the required thing, and what is needed for it?

What ?

What, what?


It's really simple.

Apple = Apple <- not subjective, fact
Different opinions on the flavors of different kinds of apples <- subjective, opinion (one person may like sweet apples, but not tart apples)

Clear enough?

grind is a word =P

I think everyone's interpretation of the word would bear some resemblance to the wikipedia definition, but everyone's application of the definition will be different.

Your definition of grind is way too general. I can use your definition to describe life in general. I grind to open the refrigerator door (since I do it repeatedly), I grind to breathe, I grind to sleep, etc. Thats why I think grind only can be defined related to one's pleasure. According to you, anything you do more than once is grind.

But I think you nail it on the head when you say that maybe we are trying to define the wrong idea. Maybe we should concentrate on what is required and what is optional. But then again we run into some opinions. What maybe required for one is optional for another.

I agree with Mac Sidewinder in regards to arcanmacabre's post--that is way too general.

I mean, honestly--one of the, if not the, two most overrused terms ever in GW are "nerf" and "grind". Both are used so much that it pretty much makes my eyeballs bleed.

I say just play the game.

For me, grind is anything that is not enjoyable, but which you are required to do before you can enjoy yourself.


Examples of Grind in GW

• Getting to Level 20
• Getting all the outposts on the map
• Completing the storyline to get all missions open/doors unlocked
• Maxing PvE Skill linked titles
• Getting money for skills

An ideal grindless gw for me would be one where you could create a fully formed and equipped character take them anywhere and get to the business of adventuring with friends without the chore of getting your character PvE ready first.

Grinding is a repetitive action that yields a small reward each time.
and when you get X small rewards you receive a larger reward.
like X amount of experience to gain 1 level
X amount of gold form farming to buy Y that you want
X amount of <small title step> to get Y level of title

thats what grinding means, grinding away on something, getting a little closer each time.

arcanemacabre actually contradicts himself in the post.
And then compare it with tetris.
In tetris you don't do the same thing X amount of times to get Y reward
you start form the beginning each time you play. so you do it 1 time, with no reward guarantee, and then you do it another time again with no guarantee. etc.

some titles are grind, some aren't. the protector titles for instance aren't grinding. you start from scratch each time you try a mission. and either you fail and get nothing or you succeed and get a point. but if you do the same mission again you don't gain anything else. thats why it isn't grinding. its not a reward obtained through a repetitive action.
cartographer isn't really grinding either, each .1% is unique, and you can not get another .1% by doing the same thing again.

Farming is grinding, whether you farm for items, skill points, faction (balthazar too)
grinding doesn't inheritly have anything to do with requirements.

Too me it's grind. That is how I see grind in Guild Wars. Sure people might see differently, but this is just coming from my personal opinion.

Where does Z fit in this?

being pvp-ready for my pve characters is the reason I grind.

Grind is a mentality, not a game mechanic.

But for the point of definition...

If you are doing something in game for a purpose and not enjoying the process, your probably grinding. Someone else could be doing the same thing, enjoying it the whole time, and not consider that action grinding.

Fun is the most important aspect of the definition.

As for grind = bad content, or lack of interesting mechanics, i'd agree with that in some cases.

I never said anything about a guarantee of reward, just reward. Tetris works on that level - it's the same game every time, even through random generators, still the same pieces, same repeat action. Sure, it's more skill-based (some would argue it's entirely skill-based, since everyone has the same chances yet there is clearly those who do better than others).

Still, my definition could use some refinement, perhaps with an addition of: the only way to obtain said reward is through repetition. That may be the right combination of words, there.

If my definition were to be updated that way, it would clarify just what is grind in GW, I think. This would remove things like the faction titles, even though there are people who think that is the only grind in the game, strangely enough...

lol I have to admit this made me chuckle, but I disagree, as its not quite that simple. Opening a refrigerator door isnt grind (and its funny to even be typing this in a thread about gaming and grind) since you only do it once per your reward, ie the food you seek, unless you are cooking in which case you may open it a few times. If I had to open the refrigerator door 100 times before I could get the bagel out, that would be grind. I might ask myself if the bagel is worth it and I then might come up with a different solution to my hunger. If I really like bagels, then I'm going to grind for it. If I dont, well, maybe the banana on the counter would do instead.

We have of course other real life grind examples, ie the daily grind. Get up, go to work, come home do the cooking and clean-up, etc etc. Its not grind in one day. It becomes grind when its a daily thing over months, to achieve some long term life goal. Some people like it, some dont, but its pretty neutral. It just is what it is as defined by the need for continual income and making a living. Pleasure in doing that, or lack thereof, comes from one's own disposition and the chosen job. Doesnt really have anything to do with the grind itself, as that is defined by modern life in a capitalistic society.

The two important things in grind are repetition and reward, but qualified to allow the obvious not included in your example, that you have to complete the gauntlet (number of reps) before you get the reward, which in the daily grind example is retirement. Opening a door to get the bagel is just an action. Its an action we repeat multiple times yes, but not in succession before the reward is gotten.

I look at grind as completely neutral - its just a definition. How grind is actually employed in a game, or in life, is another matter I think some are confusing. Its in how it is employed that comes our experience with it and whether we view it as overall positive or negative and possibly have pleasure or displeasure associated with it. In good game design, grind is more transparent, and the activities associated more varied and enjoyable - but its still grind.

Hmm...I can see it now...

A stationary bike attached to a beer fridge in University dorms all over the world.

To open the fridge and get a beer you must reach a speed of 40km/h and maintain that for 5 min then the door opens for you.......

I'm glad you "quoted" needs out. All grinds in Guildwars are optional, although needed if you want titles, or armor from EotN (excluding handing in books)

Sadly while its optional it has an impact. Take pve skills. If you dont max the titles you are actually weaker than someone who has.