How does the so called "random generator" for minipets work?
rohara
3 out of 5 of my birthday presents have been jungle trolls. bah.
bamm bamm bamm
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
A random number is generated with an algorithm, given the same seed it will generate the same number every time. Most use a clock to generate the random number and some use multiple inputs(day X month X year X time = seed).
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Edit:
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Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed
Go into a cave with trolls, kill 1, chances are you got a raven staff
2nd try: Raven Staff 3rd Try:...Raven staff ... : Another white ... : Purple ... :white ...19th try: golden non-max item you may get the gold on the 1st try or the 101st try, but golds have better drops then purples and purples have better then whites. you were jsut unlucky that you got the most common and unwanted mini. but hey, HoM fills quick with em my 1 and only pressie was a seige turtle |
Nemo the Capitalist
Op u got screwed but then again on 8 toons gotten 4 fungals 1 yr old eeach so gg
dsnesnintendo
i am going to list a random series of numbers
123456789101112131415
seems odd but this outcome is just a likely as any other series of numbers
random is not subject to logical interpretation
123456789101112131415
seems odd but this outcome is just a likely as any other series of numbers
random is not subject to logical interpretation
Big_Daddy
Fungals are THE ugliest yr 1 bday present. I'd rather have 4 trolls in a jungle row. :/ I feel for you man. 
pumpkin pie
just when i thought its safe to open a birthday present. yes one of my 16 character celebrated its birthday few days ago, and gotten a birthday present. I was reluctant to open the package, but curiosity made me do it, found out it was Black Friday yesterday when I open the package and out pop a little head, and its a cute mini fungal wallow, and I look around Kamadan every where I turn its fungal wallow... so I ran away to Shing Jea Monastery to find more fungal wallow roaming the monastery...okay, so that was not true, but i did get my third fungal wallow yesterday, and I dare not open the next birthday package .... its sitting there in the bag. blue box with yellow ribbon. *sigh*
I hope its something I have not gotten before.
it wouldn't be as bad getting repeats mini pets if you can:
1) stack the pets.
2) let them roam in herd in town/outpost.
mwahahahahahah - i would become the necrid horse herder....
lyra_song
heres my minis:
Ive had ONE repeat being the jades. The other multiples were promos.
It seems really random to me. Repetition is part of randomness, even imperfect randomness.
Ive had ONE repeat being the jades. The other multiples were promos.
It seems really random to me. Repetition is part of randomness, even imperfect randomness.
You can't see me
When you gamble at slot machines, you have a chance of getting the cherries a lot because they're the most common even though it's a random spin.
You have a chance to get a Necrid Horseman, a Fungal Wallow, and a Whiptail Devourer a lot, because they're most common, even though it's a random draw.
Don't complain because when you draw straws there are more than one straw then the other. It may seem that the people on guru complaining about this are high in numbers, but considering the other thousands of players that are NOT complaining about it...
/notsigned.
You have a chance to get a Necrid Horseman, a Fungal Wallow, and a Whiptail Devourer a lot, because they're most common, even though it's a random draw.
Don't complain because when you draw straws there are more than one straw then the other. It may seem that the people on guru complaining about this are high in numbers, but considering the other thousands of players that are NOT complaining about it...
/notsigned.
MoldyRiceFrenzy
u just got pwnt... bad...
Harmless
I've gotten so many necrid horsemen I'm thinking about opening a stable.
Crom The Pale
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Originally Posted by bamm bamm bamm
Microsoft's CryptGenRandom takes data from these sources, only one of them being time. If you set up an encrypted partition or container with TrueCrypt it gathers entropy from your continued mouse movements.
Edit: The options you listed there are weighted differently, so they have different chances to drop. Because the OP is getting three of the same minipet, they have, by definition, the same probability of occurring. The chance of getting three the same is exactly the same as the chance of getting 3 different, (1/8)^3 (within the common set). No factorial as pets aren't removed from the set as they are received, which some people do request from time to time. |
The question is where is the random number being calculated, on your comp or on the server? If we knew what info was being used to calculate the seed then it could, in theory, be manipulated.
Winterclaw
One problem I've always had with these types of threads is unless you don't have some sort of stastical analysis of a large number of characters and gifts opened, you've got no clue if the thing is bugged or not. Then you've got some people saying something like getting three in a row is possible, which it is, but seem to think that saying good enough for the thing not to be bugged.
BTW, I got two of the same kind of minipet on two different occasions.
BTW, I got two of the same kind of minipet on two different occasions.
Feminist Terrorist
Every time I read the thread title, I think it says midgets instead of minipets, and the first thing that comes to mind is "since when does GW have midgets".
I think it's a function of getting old; the eyes are the first to go.
I think it's a function of getting old; the eyes are the first to go.
shadows of hob
I got 5 Fungals from 6 presents and 1 burning titan.
bamm bamm bamm
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Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
The question is where is the random number being calculated, on your comp or on the server? If we knew what info was being used to calculate the seed then it could, in theory, be manipulated.
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Abnaxus
I repeat another time, this is not a complain thread, I started it because I noticed something actually weird happening in a short timeframe.
It's not the 1st time I have duplicates, my 1st mini was a temple guardian, a couple of months later I had my 2nd on another account and it was again temple guardian.
Two temple guardians on 2 different accounts after months means nothing, the 2 events can't be correlatated in any way. They're completely independent.
I got other duplicates, but with such difference in time and place that it's clear that can't be any correlation between them.
Three in a row, in the same place (guild hall) and nearly contemporarily, made me think that the random generator can use a seed based on day/hour or location.
Someone else posted that his experience with multiple present openings in the same time and location gave similar results.
A question which could be interesting to be answered is whether the minipet is assigned when the present appears in the inventory, or when it's opened.
It's not the 1st time I have duplicates, my 1st mini was a temple guardian, a couple of months later I had my 2nd on another account and it was again temple guardian.
Two temple guardians on 2 different accounts after months means nothing, the 2 events can't be correlatated in any way. They're completely independent.
I got other duplicates, but with such difference in time and place that it's clear that can't be any correlation between them.
Three in a row, in the same place (guild hall) and nearly contemporarily, made me think that the random generator can use a seed based on day/hour or location.
Someone else posted that his experience with multiple present openings in the same time and location gave similar results.
A question which could be interesting to be answered is whether the minipet is assigned when the present appears in the inventory, or when it's opened.
Abnaxus
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Originally Posted by shadows of hob
I got 5 Fungals from 6 presents and 1 burning titan.
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strcpy
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Originally Posted by Abnaxus
A question which could be interesting to be answered is whether the minipet is assigned when the present appears in the inventory, or when it's opened.
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A PRNG will *only* give consistent output if the seed is the same (even the horrid ones like the old RANDU work this way). The only way this would work is if they seed on something with a large enough granularity that they have the same seed over several present opened and *also* re-seed before every roll. There are *very* few things that have this level of granularity in any of the examples given so far (in fact, I find none of them do however I will assume there is somethings I have not thought of).
Once again, more than a simple basic understanding of PRNG's would help quite a bit. While it is always possible they do something that stupid (or even meant it to be that way) it generally follows that if one is capable of writing this video game they are more than knowledgeable enough to avoid that bug. In fact, this would be along the lines of a car designer forgetting to add an engine to the car. While anything is always possible I highly doubt it.
Now, if the afore mentioned Schroedinger's Cat experiment is to be believed then the answer is apparent - it is decided once opened and someone self-aware looks at the outcome.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by Abnaxus
A question which could be interesting to be answered is whether the minipet is assigned when the present appears in the inventory, or when it's opened.
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In contrast, the loot possessed by monsters is determined when you enter a zone. This was proven elegantly by receiving time restricted drops outside the valid time frame because the zone was entered (and thus loot created) while still within the time frame.
strcpy
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
In contrast, the loot possessed by monsters is determined when you enter a zone. This was proven elegantly by receiving time restricted drops outside the valid time frame because the zone was entered (and thus loot created) while still within the time frame.
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The rollback thing is interesting and obviously proves that the contents are only decided when opened - there can not have been very many times that experiment has been done. Would you care to expand on the latter? I would be interested to know the exact circumstances and if you have repeated it more than once. I would have imagined that different types of loot have different ways they are determined.
Lord Sojar
Pick a number between 0 and 0. Give up? It's i + the interval of i X i/ i^5 - sqrt (i). Here, have another Jade Armor.
pumpkin pie
don't open 2 presents in the same day... maybe... possibly won't give you a streak of same one in different day, or maybe the random ness is monday Jade Armor, tuesday necrid horseman... et cetera.... hrmzzz okay maybe monday is Hydra ... blah, NO REPEATS OF MINI PETS GRRRRR.......
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by strcpy
I would have imagined that different types of loot have different ways they are determined.
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So, let's say that a particular event ends today at 12 P.M. If I enter an explorable at 10 P.M. then wait for 3 hours before starting to kill monsters, they will still drop special loot for me although somebody else who entered the explorable 3 hours later than me won't be getting any, because they are not generated any more. Thus, the special loot were generated when the instance was created and the monsters have been carrying them meanwhile.
Strictly speaking, this only proves that the special loot is generated when an instance is created. However, if we consider the potential mechanisms for generating the loot, it is apparent that a create-at-initiation mechanism requires more server resources than a create-when-killed mechanism (for starters, you have to keep tabs on all the loot for the entire existence of an instance, even on those monsters that never actually get killed). Since the special loot is a tacked on feature on top of the normal loot creation mechanism, it wouldn't make any sense to create a separate and more resource intensive mechanism for that alone if there is already another mechanism available (a case where special loot was determined on a kill would be easier to argue in favor of a separate mechanism). The highly probable conclusion is that special loot is predetermined because it is created by the same mechanism that creates the normal loot.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Trub
baby wallows are the best mini in the game..
<3 |
...if they could use skills.
IslandHermet
I think I have the Op beat 8 characters total all 1st year presents.
6 mini siege turtles
1 mini shiro
1 mini Krin
open 3 presents on 1 day and 3 the day after, about week later opened the last 2.
not complanin since I knew I would get shafted on the mini pets as presents I went ahead and bought 1 of each mini 1st and 2nd year.
My assumptions were right.
seems to be a big bug in the mini pets, I have 1 more char for 1st year comeing up and am a month or 2 away from getting my 2nd years presents and am only waiting for 4-5 windriders of something like that LOL.
6 mini siege turtles
1 mini shiro
1 mini Krin
open 3 presents on 1 day and 3 the day after, about week later opened the last 2.
not complanin since I knew I would get shafted on the mini pets as presents I went ahead and bought 1 of each mini 1st and 2nd year.
My assumptions were right.
seems to be a big bug in the mini pets, I have 1 more char for 1st year comeing up and am a month or 2 away from getting my 2nd years presents and am only waiting for 4-5 windriders of something like that LOL.
pkodyssey
My brothers account. He opened 4 presents in 1 day.
Hydra
Hydra
Hydra
Shiro
WTH is that all about?
The "random" generator is not very well thought out. There are so many whites, that the odds are against this occuring on the scale it apparently is.
I believe that anet needs to use a better randomizer algorithm.
PS... TRUB, everyone knows that mini-pigs are the king of all other mini's.
Hydra
Hydra
Hydra
Shiro
WTH is that all about?
The "random" generator is not very well thought out. There are so many whites, that the odds are against this occuring on the scale it apparently is.
I believe that anet needs to use a better randomizer algorithm.
PS... TRUB, everyone knows that mini-pigs are the king of all other mini's.
Abnaxus
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Originally Posted by IslandHermet
I think I have the Op beat 8 characters total all 1st year presents.
6 mini siege turtles 1 mini shiro 1 mini Krin open 3 presents on 1 day and 3 the day after, about week later opened the last 2. |
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...17&postcount=1
It seems that opening multiple presents in short time increases the probability to get the same mini.
Now we need to know if someone experienced the opposite, that is someone who received different pets opening 3 or more presents in a short timeframe.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by pkodyssey
My brothers account. He opened 4 presents in 1 day.
Hydra Hydra Hydra Shiro WTH is that all about? The "random" generator is not very well thought out. There are so many whites, that the odds are against this occuring on the scale it apparently is. I believe that anet needs to use a better randomizer algorithm. |
If you want competely random, there should be no levels of pet rarity (white/purple/gold/green), it would all be the same.
Mordakai
Wow, I've only gotten two of the same pet once (a year apart, on different characters). I have 13 characters.
I think that the people who get multiple copies of Mini-pets are more likely to "report" it on the internet, as so it looks like it happens all the time..
when, in fact, it's probably just a small percentage of the overall GW playerbase.
I think that the people who get multiple copies of Mini-pets are more likely to "report" it on the internet, as so it looks like it happens all the time..
when, in fact, it's probably just a small percentage of the overall GW playerbase.
MirkoTeran
Its almost funny to see how many people have no idea what random is...
lyra_song
I made a little "rarity dartboard". If you randomly threw a dart at it without aiming, whats the percent of getting a white? purple? gold? green? Yes its random, but theres still a certain % of chance.
If you landed on green 10000000000000x in a row, is that random? Yes.
If you landed on a different spot everytime, is that random? Yes.
edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy
Abnaxus
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Originally Posted by MirkoTeran
Its almost funny to see how many people have no idea what random is...
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1. what random really is
2. what mistakes people have done here about random
pkodyssey
Screw random, I frankly could care less about the little word game this thread has going. Call it odds, random, whatever...
It sucks arss, to get the same thing over and over. If it happened to "you", you would be complaining too.
How would you like to get the same christmas gift from everyone this year. It would suck. No, "you" would go, oh that was random, or the odds were not on my side, or whatever, and smile about it and be happy. (/sarcasm in-case you missed it)
Anet needs to fix this crap. They know its f'd up but they wont do a dam thing about it because they need to fix a spelling mistake in the on-line store instead. Better yet they don't have the resorces becasue GW2 is taking up all their time.
Excuses, excuses, excuses...
It sucks arss, to get the same thing over and over. If it happened to "you", you would be complaining too.
How would you like to get the same christmas gift from everyone this year. It would suck. No, "you" would go, oh that was random, or the odds were not on my side, or whatever, and smile about it and be happy. (/sarcasm in-case you missed it)
Anet needs to fix this crap. They know its f'd up but they wont do a dam thing about it because they need to fix a spelling mistake in the on-line store instead. Better yet they don't have the resorces becasue GW2 is taking up all their time.
Excuses, excuses, excuses...
Abnaxus
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
[IMG]I made a little "rarity dartboard". If you randomly threw a dart at it without aiming, whats the percent of getting a white? purple? gold? green? Yes its random, but theres still a certain % of chance.
If you landed on green 10000000000000x in a row, is that random? Yes. If you landed on a different spot everytime, is that random? Yes. edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy |
We're all aware that white, purple, gold and green "probably" have different weights in the random generator, hence the difference in rarity.
We are all aware that in a "real" random sequence, there is no correlation between the results. So any sequence has the same probability as all others.
I think we're not incurring in Gambler's fallacy.
All of you assume that GW software behaves like a perfect random generator.
This is your assumption.
Some people are raising doubts about that.
Instead of giving unrequested considerations about people ignorance in what is random, please give us evidence that this GW software reproduces a perfect random number generator.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Abnaxus
All of you assume that GW software behaves like a perfect random generator.
This is your assumption. Some people are raising doubts about that. Instead of giving unrequested considerations about people ignorance in what is random, please give us evidence that this GW software reproduces a perfect random number generator. |
The fact that some people are seeing "patterns" however is still the gambler's fallacy because no matter how many times you get the same thing in a row, it is still acceptable because randomness does not exclude this, even if the random generator is not perfect.
12345678910 is still a random pattern.
11111111111 is still a random pattern.
If you think you start seeing predictable things, you are falling into the gambler's fallacy.
My own experience with the presents has been nothing but randomness.
Your own experience might be a pattern.
What can we prove with this?
Theres zero evidence that the random number generator is broken because even if you got the same exact thing 10000000x in a row, that still is acceptable in what is the definition of random
Kusandaa
Heh, I've gotten so far...
1st year:
Fungal Wallow x3 (necro, assassin, paragon mule)
Troll x2 (warrior, dervish)
Necrid Horseman (mesmer mule)
Rurik (monk)
Bone Dragon (ranger)
Charr Shaman (nuker)
The only 2nd year I have so far is the Fire Imp (necro), waiting 2 months or so for warrior's second birthday.
Tired of getting wallows >_>. Have no use for them, can't sell, can't give them away... lol. Was happy with the bone dragon, always wanted one. Took me forever to sell the Rurik though I tend to keep whatever I get except for doubles... just wish it'd be more... reasonable? on how they give pets away.
1st year:
Fungal Wallow x3 (necro, assassin, paragon mule)
Troll x2 (warrior, dervish)
Necrid Horseman (mesmer mule)
Rurik (monk)
Bone Dragon (ranger)
Charr Shaman (nuker)
The only 2nd year I have so far is the Fire Imp (necro), waiting 2 months or so for warrior's second birthday.
Tired of getting wallows >_>. Have no use for them, can't sell, can't give them away... lol. Was happy with the bone dragon, always wanted one. Took me forever to sell the Rurik though I tend to keep whatever I get except for doubles... just wish it'd be more... reasonable? on how they give pets away.
Mordakai
It sounds like people don't want a random generator.
They want a generator that guarantees a different mini-pet each time, which would be much more complex, and in the end, I think unwarranted. (ie, you would have less chance to get Greens, Golds and Purples, because once you got one on your account, you wouldn't get another until all others were given out.)
You get 6 whites, 1 green, 1 gold and 1 purple out of 9 pets, and you're complaining?
Give me a freakin' break.
They want a generator that guarantees a different mini-pet each time, which would be much more complex, and in the end, I think unwarranted. (ie, you would have less chance to get Greens, Golds and Purples, because once you got one on your account, you wouldn't get another until all others were given out.)
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Originally Posted by Kusandaa
Heh, I've gotten so far...
1st year: Fungal Wallow x3 (necro, assassin, paragon mule) Troll x2 (warrior, dervish) Necrid Horseman (mesmer mule) Rurik (monk) Bone Dragon (ranger) Charr Shaman (nuker) |
Give me a freakin' break.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
It sounds like people don't want a random generator.
They want a generator that guarantees a different mini-pet each time, which would be much more complex, and in the end, I think unwarranted. (ie, you would have less chance to get Greens, Golds and Purples, because once you got one on your account, you wouldn't get another until all others were given out.) |
Basically its like a deck of cards....one you get a card, it isn't returned to the deck, and the deck is reshuffled.
Its an interesting idea, but hardly fair for people with only a few characters.
It rewards players with a LOT of characters.
While you could say the current system does the same, the fact that under such a system, rare items increase in chance the more chances you have is unfair.
MirkoTeran
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Originally Posted by Abnaxus
1. what random really is
2. what mistakes people have done here about random |
2. For start a lot of people think the numbers are 'fair' and not random. Then people forget that even with pseudo-randomness there is still weight associated with each pet.
On a plus not, its a nice thing to see a few people actually understand the point of this all.
Gigashadow
This happens in every game, people get all confused when they see something a bunch a few times in a row on separate occasions, post a thread about it, a few other people say "me too!", and then you get a giant thread of uninformed people complaining they now have "proof" the random number generator is bugged.
Enough people have pointed out the fallacy in this, so if you don't understand by now why you are wrong, you probably never will, and you will continue to believe in such superstitions and post stupid bullshit. There is just no educating some people.
There are a bazillion server side events that use the random number generator on any particular server box, and these are continually happening. They include damage numbers for player and mob attacks, etc.
If you think that getting the same minipet 3 times in a row means the random number generator is bugged, not only does it mean that you think the random number generator itself is bugged, but it also means that you believe that no other events share that generator; i.e. you think that your character has a persisted personal random number generator unique to your character that is used solely for generating your minipets.
Enough people have pointed out the fallacy in this, so if you don't understand by now why you are wrong, you probably never will, and you will continue to believe in such superstitions and post stupid bullshit. There is just no educating some people.
There are a bazillion server side events that use the random number generator on any particular server box, and these are continually happening. They include damage numbers for player and mob attacks, etc.
If you think that getting the same minipet 3 times in a row means the random number generator is bugged, not only does it mean that you think the random number generator itself is bugged, but it also means that you believe that no other events share that generator; i.e. you think that your character has a persisted personal random number generator unique to your character that is used solely for generating your minipets.