Sundering vs. Vampiric - The Final Showdown

All testing was performed using critical hits (Wild Blow) and a standard, max damage, 15^50, pvp axe. (the work of Senator Tom/Ghostly Sparrow/I Mending I/Mending Dragon One/The One Magics/Africa Bamba)

X Axe Mastery, 0 Strength

12 Axe
Crit - 55
Sundering proc crit - 67
5 hits with sundering proc - 287 dmg
5 hits vampiric - 290 dmg

13 Axe
Crit - 57
Sundering proc crit - 70
5 hits with sundering proc - 298 dmg
5 hits vamp - 300

14 Axe
Crit - 59
Sundering proc crit - 72
5 hits with sundering proc - 308
5 hits vampiric - 310

15 Axe
Crit - 61
Sundering proc crit - 75
5 hits with sundering proc - 319
5 hits vamp - 320

16 Axe
Crit - 63
Sundering proc crit - 77
5 hits with sundering proc - 329
5 hits vamp - 330

As you should be noticing, the difference between the damage an axe with a sundering mod will produce versus that of an axe with a vampiric mod is slowly closing as you raise the Axe Mastery attribute. This is because sundering scales with higher damage. 20% of 60 is 12 as opposed to 20% of 50 being 10. The damage of a vampiric modded weapon will rise at a steady rate because it is always 3 damage (on an axe that is, 5 on hammer or bow), whereas sundering damage will rise slightly higher, because sundering damage scales. To prove this idea of sundering damage scaling to higher damage output where vampiric damage rises at a constant rate, I will factor in strength; an attribute that raises armor penetration by 1% per attribute point.

16 Axe mastery, X Strength

0 Str
Crit - 63
Sundering proc crit - 77
5 hits with sundering proc - 329
5 hits vamp - 330

1 Str
Crit - 64
Sundering proc crit - 79
5 hits with sundering proc - 335
5 hits vamp - 335

2 Str
Crit - 65
Sundering proc crit - 80
5 hits with sundering proc - 340
5 hits vamp - 340

3 Str
Crit - 65
Sundering proc crit - 80
5 hits with sundering proc - 340
5 hits vamp - 340

4 Str
Crit - 66
Sundering proc crit - 81
5 hits with sundering proc - 345
5 hits vamp - 345

5 Str
Crit - 67
Sundering proc crit - 83
5 hits with sundering proc - 351
5 hits vamp - 350

6 Str
Crit - 67
Sundering proc crit - 83
5 hits with sundering proc - 351
5 hits vamp - 350

7 Str
Crit - 68
Sundering proc crit - 84
5 hits with sundering proc - 356
5 hits vamp - 355

8 Str
Crit - 68
Sundering proc crit - 84
5 hits with sundering proc - 356
5 hits vamp - 355

9 Str
Crit - 70
Sundering proc crit - 86
5 hits with sundering proc - 366
5 hits vamp - 365

10 Str
Crit - 70
Sundering proc crit - 86
5 hits with sundering proc - 366
5 hits vamp - 365

11 Str
Crit - 71
Sundering proc crit - 87
5 hits with sundering proc - 371
5 hits vamp - 370

12 Str
Crit - 72
Sundering proc crit - 89
5 hits with sundering proc - 377
5 hits vamp - 375


Now, as you can see, at 1 strength, 5 hits with a sundering proc deals the same damage as 5 hits of a vampiric weapon. At 5 strength, because of damage scaling, 5 hits with a sundering proc will deal more damage, a laughable 1 more damage, than 5 hits of a vampiric weapon.

Overall, with the highest difference in damage being 2, vampiric and sundering will, on average, deal the same amount of damage. Vampiric is a more reliable source because it procs every swing, whereas sundering could proc on a very low hit or a very high one. This research is all theorycraft, all crits, and all assuming that sundering WILL proc 20% of the time. Just to give the public an idea of damage scaling and why sundering would be much better than vampiric if we were given certain conditions (50 axe mastery and 30 strength, for example)
-Senator Tom

Nice Experiment, but would it not be useful to run a test for 14 axe masetry x strength? since that is what most axe wielders would run in pvp?

Good point deleted. I plan to do that, as well as auto attacking master of damage with a sundering and a vampiric weapon.

Imo, the real information to be taken away from this is that the average difference over time is worth approximately $dick.

This doesn't stop me from weapon swapping.
Vampiric has health gains.

............oh my

Exactly. Doesn't that make the miniscule different between the two moot because Vampiric gives health back and Sundering doesn't?

It's all nice theorycraft but doesn't make things more understandable for the average person, as you don't usually crit 5 times in a row or use 5 attack skills in a row.

Damage over time comparisons between vamp and sundering only show that vampiric DPS > sundering DPS. Were the game only about (miniscule gains in) DPS, vampiric would win hands down.

Which means nothing in the long run.

In PvP, having 3 or 4 higher DPS is great, but sacrificing spike power for it isn't really plausible.
When we look at skill choices in PvP, in the perspective of having "Great DPS", Rodgort's Invocation is complete shit compared to Flare. Flare has much more DPS, while Rodgort's Invocation can only be casted once every so often.
But when we look at other choices - that is, the fact that Rodgort's Invocation does more damage when you NEED it to. The same thing really applies for Sundering. It does more damage when you NEED it to. When you're spiking, and you get a crit + sundering off on an Executioners -- damn, you've pretty much just solo spiked a target. Vampiric? Nothing really changes.
When we look at infusing and spike healing, if you're dealing pressure and you get a Sundering + Crit off on someone, that's quite a bit of damage, and you're probably going to want to consider trying a spike on that target, who just lost about 100 health in one regular hit, which will make enemy monks burn energy on hard protting it, or letting it die - both of which are advantageous. With Vampiric, your spike isn't that great, and you don't even have a chance to solo spike a target without the help of someone else.

Basicly sundering needs perfect (ie, impossible) conditions to get near the dps of vampiric.

The only reason (PvE of course) I accept for someone using sundering instead of vampiric, is that they are lazy to weapon swap, since, in the end this is a game and u should have fun, and if swapping weapons is a pain, then dont.

The health gains from vampiric is only enough to counter the degen on a warrior without an IAS. Too tired to type properly.

Why would you be attacking without IAS?

They're already pretty close, the difference is about 2 DPS at most.

In PvE, your prefix choice doesn't matter, as you kill stuff at the same rate regardless of your choice.

You're also talking about an axe, which utilizes sundering very well because of the high max damage. Same with scythes and hammers, sundering works well for those.

Using a sword, or even worse daggers, sundering really makes very little sense compared to vampiric.

The question between sundering or vampiric is not which has more dps, it's what you're trying to accomplish. If you want dps for pve situations, you go vampiric for the healing, and you probably don't use an axe. If you want spike for pvp situations, you go sundering. Simple as that.

Why should I care? I'm just making a statement in saying that the health gain is only enough to counter degen without it. I'm not going to tell people to use it or not. I'm sure they can play the games for themselves.

Not to be mean or anything, but your methodology stinks.

1. You do not go around scoring critical hits on every swing. The results for 5 critical hits in a row are not valid as a measure of what happens in normal combat when criticals are rare. (FYI: The impact of this flaw is that your results skew more favorably towards sundering than they should.)

2. But for the fact that every trial is going to have the same result, 5 trials is far, far, far too small a sample size to be meaningful. (I might also add that you also "tested" something that anyone familiar with the game mechanics could have worked out on paper.)

3. You failed to test other weapon types. What's true about axes is not necessarily true about other weapon types.

it seems like everyone missed the point he was trying to make. Sundering is generally worse than vampiric but can compete with it given certain conditions due to damage scaling
-disgruntled citizen

Why should I care? I'm just making a statement in saying that vampiric mods has health gains other than doing damage unlike sundering. I'm not going to tell people to use it or not. I'm sure they can play the games for themselves.

/end sarcasm

It is not much of a fair view, since the test didn't specify how much is target's armor.
Anyway, for a good fair testing, OP has a lot of stuff missing.

Similary, vampiric needs near ideal conditions ot ot have drawback: it really shows when in reall combat situation (hi life gain from vamp, meet blocks, blind, miss hexes, snares and kiting. somehow you are not that sexy anymore.)

Besides: zomg, koss, you noob, swap weapons!1!1!1! Heroes dont swap, on the other hand, they dont mind degen either.

With expcetion of heroes: Swaps >> sund vs vamp discussion

dont forget vampiric goes through prot spirit, shield of absorption, shielding hands and RoF.

So you are saying that if sundering triggers 5 times in a row....which has a .032% chance of happening btw, it does almost as much damage as vampiric?

The numbers for the hits are 4 regular hits plus 1 sundering hit, which is still an inaccurate way of portraying it.

Talking about the health gain is about as relevant as talking about the costs of vampiric vs sundering. Why bring up something that really doesn't matter?

Yeah, would be much easier to figure out the difference in sundering hits vs non sundering hits. Then multiply that by 20%. That would give you the average of how much it adds, wouldn't it? Edit: Also, adding different armor levels would be a good idea too.

Example:


12 Axe
Crit - 55
Sundering proc crit - 67
5 hits with sundering proc - 287 dmg
5 hits vampiric - 290 dmg

to


12 Axe
Sundering: 2.4 damage per hit
Vampiric: 3 damage per hit.

how is that inaccurate? sundering has a 20% chance to proc does it not? 1/5 should be sundering. this is theorycraft, get in theorycraft mode

in theorycraft mode, you can also never-ever trigger sundering even if you make 1 mil. hits.

And that sums it up right there.

This test used the absolute best case scenario for sundering: every hit is a critical hit. Given this best case (and completely unrealistic) scenario, sundering pulls even with vamp.
Given a more realistic scenario where hits vary greatly, vamp will come out the clear winner.

To be fair though, I don't think the point of this thread is claim that sundering is just as good as vamp, but rather to point out that the difference between the two might not be as great as many people assume.

sundering is very stupid.

Of course that vamp might not give as much hp back as it would drain deosnt matter, its about the extra dmg, and relible damage is far far superior to chance dmg. Obviously you switch the vamp when not attacking or even when blinded or whatever.

This topic is more dead than the auction house tbh .

seems like everyone missed that. i decided to go test this out myself by auto attacking on the master of damage. sundering came out to 28 after 180 seconds and vamp to 29
im sure the times werent long enough, but still.
the point was to show why sundering isnt as good as vampiric (the scaling) and why it could be much better (the scaling)

not really acctually. theorycraft usually means that everything does what it should (sundering proc 20% of the time)

The main problem is that assuming all hits are criticals + attack skills makes sundering look much better than it should. Sundering gets better with more criticals and more AP.

With 14 in your weapon mastery attribute, sundering adds on average:
~1.5 damage per hit (DPH) for swords and axes, without strength (or without attack skills)
~1.7 DPH for swords and axes, with 13 strength, or for spears
~2.2 DPH for hammers and scythes, without strength (or without attack skills)
~2.5 DPH for hammers, with 13 strength

That's against 3 DPH with swords, axes, and spears, and 5 DPH with hammers and scythes. But who really cares about DPH/DPS?

ok and what are the numbers for 8 strength? 10 strength? when sundering procs on an eviscerate crit?

Meh, this thread is boring. Just use furious mode :P

Somewhere between the numbers for 0 and 13 strength.

At 14 axe mastery and 13 strength vs 60 AL, 112 without DW factored in. Without sundering, it's 96.

It all actually depends on what kind of target you hit.

Another falacy of the test is that sundering is only a 20% chance so 1 in every 5 hits on average it will PROC that does't mean it will HIT. But, a vampiric has 5 chances in 5 of hitting not just one chance in 5. People forget that there are people and mobs BLOCKING out there and thus the sundering becomes less powerful as vampiric because vampiric has a possibility of hitting 5 times to sunderings 1. Vampiric can miss once and still add damage the other 4 hits. If sundering misses on its proc then it's useless.

weapon swapping FTW..
too much numbers for me..in this thread

ITS VAMP SO STOP ASKING.

It was vamp seventeen years ago when it was 10/10 sundering and guess what, it's been vamp since it became 20/20 sundering.

/endthread

Your high crits from sundering will help with getting kills more than 3 extra health per hit.

Hasn't this been gone over with like 2473048734820735 times?

Vamp wins.

See:
The difference "really doesn't matter." The entire thread is based on this. I'd say the heath gains are pretty significant compared to the difference in DPS.

Sundering works on a percentage. Vampiric doesn't. 20% AP with 59 damage (crit) is 72, as stated. Sundering does not trigger with a critical, it triggers randomly. Calculating on an ideal situation is stupid as that situation will never turn up.

The reason why Vampiric is used over Sundering is because it doesn't rely on ideal situations. Sundering could be 40/20 and Vamp would still be used over it. That +3 life steal per hit does not change and is not effected by armour.