Can Rits replace MMs?
lasker wavingtrider
I see a few rt/n characters online lately. Just wondering if there is any build that allows them to be decent minion masters. Besides the Minion Bomber, can they make a good straight MM?
Bargamer
IMHO, no. Boon of Creation and Animate Bone Minion's synergy is a gimmick. Other than giving the Flesh Golem more health, Spirit's Gift, and Explosive Growth, pretty much nothing else in Spawning Power can offer anything to all of the other Animate spells. Except for these spells, having higher-level minions is better than having more health for them. Without the two-for-one punch of Animate Bone Minions, (and possibly Animate Shambling Horror and Jagged Bones,) Boon of Creation cannot possibly keep up with the high Energy requirements of Animating and maintaining the minion's health, and the Ritualist has no response for the Necro's Bloodstained Insignia advantage.
If you don't know anything else about Ritualists, then know that they are intended to be hybrids, whether of classes or concepts. They can do several things pretty well, to make up for the Core Profession's near-monopoly on a single concept at a time. So while the Rit/N cannot be as good of a straight-MM as a Necromancer, they are better at blowing stuff up, dropping hexes and conditions, keeping themselves alive, and occasionally healing the party, all at the same time.
Put both a Necro-main and a Rit/N Minion Bomber into Vizunah Square, and you got yourself the makings of a Masters run. I always run with 2 Rit/N though, just for fun. :-D
If you don't know anything else about Ritualists, then know that they are intended to be hybrids, whether of classes or concepts. They can do several things pretty well, to make up for the Core Profession's near-monopoly on a single concept at a time. So while the Rit/N cannot be as good of a straight-MM as a Necromancer, they are better at blowing stuff up, dropping hexes and conditions, keeping themselves alive, and occasionally healing the party, all at the same time.
Put both a Necro-main and a Rit/N Minion Bomber into Vizunah Square, and you got yourself the makings of a Masters run. I always run with 2 Rit/N though, just for fun. :-D
street peddler
they can for minion bombing
mazik
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
IMHO, no. Boon of Creation and Animate Bone Minion's synergy is a gimmick.
How is it a gimmick? The skill works exactly how it is supposed to. It's not a gimmick, it's using a skill effectively for the means it was designed for.
Kwan Xi
My Personal Experience I think Necros are the superior MM, I played with a MM Rit concept and it was not as good as a Necro, It can be done but I find Soul Reaping to be a big part of the MM Process because I consider bone fiends a staple for MMs, and it could be difficult to raise multiple minions without decent soul reaping.
I actually find Spirit Spamming more useful as a Rit then MM or Minon Bombing but thats just me.
I actually find Spirit Spamming more useful as a Rit then MM or Minon Bombing but thats just me.
Shadowmere
straight up rit MM can work, not as effectively as a stright necro mind you but it still works fairly well in nm pve. despite being lower level most rit spawned minions are a fair bit more resilient than their necro counterparts. So all in all they have an advantage in tanking but otherwise necro minions have the edge.
Draginvry
Rit minions have a lot of staying power because they have a lot more health. With the right skills, you can keep them alive easier.
However, they will be doing far less damage than their necro counterparts. And, there will be less of them. There isn't any real reason to make a Rit primary MM. If you want to summon you are better off with a trick build like this:
[skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]animate shambling horror[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]life[/skill][skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]boon of creation[/skill][skill]spirit's gift[/skill][skill]explosive growth[/skill]
Take that in a mission with large mobs and watch the fun.
But as far as just plain minions, the necro will always be stronger. You'll have to start abusing some of those spawning power skills if you want to be anything other than a bomber. The other obvious problem with Rit MM is energy management. There higher the cost of minions, the harder it is to get a lot of them. That's why rit summoners almost never use Bone Fiends. They just don't have the energy pool of a necro.
However, they will be doing far less damage than their necro counterparts. And, there will be less of them. There isn't any real reason to make a Rit primary MM. If you want to summon you are better off with a trick build like this:
[skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]animate shambling horror[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]life[/skill][skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]boon of creation[/skill][skill]spirit's gift[/skill][skill]explosive growth[/skill]
Take that in a mission with large mobs and watch the fun.
But as far as just plain minions, the necro will always be stronger. You'll have to start abusing some of those spawning power skills if you want to be anything other than a bomber. The other obvious problem with Rit MM is energy management. There higher the cost of minions, the harder it is to get a lot of them. That's why rit summoners almost never use Bone Fiends. They just don't have the energy pool of a necro.
Sir Pandra Pierva
besides minion bomber rit mms are meh
Draginvry
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Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva
besides minion bomber rit mms are meh
Yeah. If you aren't abusing Spirit's Gift, Explosive Growth, or Death Nova, then there's a very good chance you should have just made a necro.
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by Draginvry
Yeah. If you aren't abusing Spirit's Gift, Explosive Growth, or Death Nova, then there's a very good chance you should have just made a necro.
None of which are all that powerful. A jagged bones guy with 16 death magic is far more interesting as a bomber, although granted humans can't run it very well.
Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.
Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.
Shadowmere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.
Right on, MM-ing even a toned down rit version is still a very potent tactic in the majority of PvE.
Minions pwn PvE
Minions pwn PvE
zwei2stein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
None of which are all that powerful. A jagged bones guy with 16 death magic is far more interesting as a bomber, although granted humans can't run it very well.
Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit. No, not really. necro MM bomber does not heal and cleanse conditions from your frontline, nor does he have double bomb (on creation, on death) ... etc. 4 more dm is meaningless when you bomb overall more.
Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit. No, not really. necro MM bomber does not heal and cleanse conditions from your frontline, nor does he have double bomb (on creation, on death) ... etc. 4 more dm is meaningless when you bomb overall more.
Bargamer
Necro-mains have the edge on DPS and Energy pool, this is true. But in overall DOT and AOE, I believe Rits are superior. I believe the tanking argument is offset by the fact that you are blowing them up whenever you can. And taking a Necro-main Hero with Death Nova/Jagged Bones solves the minion targeting problem nicely, and gives the Rit room for other skills.
Dr. Strange: Necros are not superior in every way. They used to be, but SR/Death nerfs have narrowed the gap. I will retreat to a previous argument: Why fight over who is the better MM, when you can have both in the same party, and they help each other?
Zwei2stein: I believe you mean 4 more levels?
Dr. Strange: Necros are not superior in every way. They used to be, but SR/Death nerfs have narrowed the gap. I will retreat to a previous argument: Why fight over who is the better MM, when you can have both in the same party, and they help each other?
Zwei2stein: I believe you mean 4 more levels?
Draginvry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
Why fight over who is the better MM, when you can have both in the same party, and they help each other?
If you can manage that, you will be unstoppable. I've dual MM'd with some people before, and having a rit bomber with an MM is even better if they both know what they are doing.
Theo Godscythe
My opinion, the only reason they Nerfed Death Magic(minion limit) was becasue Ritualists would have been able to create bigger/longer lasting armies.
MywayFtw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Godscythe
My opinion, the only reason they Nerfed Death Magic(minion limit) was becasue Ritualists would have been able to create bigger/longer lasting armies.
True, but wasnt that done a while before Factions?
Bargamer
Um... Wrong, Theo. The reason they nerfed Death Magic is because they wanted to nerfbat 2-man (and sometimes 1-man) Sorrow's Furnace runs, and because they wanted to push players more towards skill over build, and playing more cooperatively. (Don't have an interview link handy, sorry.)
I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php
The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all.
I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php
The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all.
Pyro maniac
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
Um... Wrong, Theo. The reason they nerfed Death Magic is because they wanted to nerfbat 2-man (and sometimes 1-man) Sorrow's Furnace runs, and because they wanted to push players more towards skill over build, and playing more cooperatively. (Don't have an interview link handy, sorry.)
I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php
The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all. I tought they introduced the cap because of alliance battles ..
anyway, it can be fun. MM in Hard Mode are actually just because of spreading the death nova blasts. They can't 'tank' like they can in normal mode.
Using a rit, it just adds another way to spread damage.
as elite, I prefer Jagged Bones
I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php
The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all. I tought they introduced the cap because of alliance battles ..
anyway, it can be fun. MM in Hard Mode are actually just because of spreading the death nova blasts. They can't 'tank' like they can in normal mode.
Using a rit, it just adds another way to spread damage.
as elite, I prefer Jagged Bones
Bargamer
Minion Cap because of AB? Wouldn't be a bad reason, but eh. Like I said, I don't have interview links handy, and am too lazy to dig through 1.5-year-old archives for them. XDDD
I agree, minions in HM just get shredded like wet tissues. Jagged Bones with the old recharge was awesome, I want it back now, lol. Now I just run with no elite, and take Necrosis+Putrid Bile. Mmmmm... MOAR 'SPLODE PLZ! <3
I agree, minions in HM just get shredded like wet tissues. Jagged Bones with the old recharge was awesome, I want it back now, lol. Now I just run with no elite, and take Necrosis+Putrid Bile. Mmmmm... MOAR 'SPLODE PLZ! <3
defect
Rit = ooodles of pretty damage through bombing
Necro = more stability(Energy management,more minions etc)
So,kind of depends on the situation.If the area is filled with enemies all bunched together in groups,go Rit.If your in an area where the baddies actually have brains and are a bit more spread out,go necro.
Necro = more stability(Energy management,more minions etc)
So,kind of depends on the situation.If the area is filled with enemies all bunched together in groups,go Rit.If your in an area where the baddies actually have brains and are a bit more spread out,go necro.
Dr Strangelove
It really comes down to deciding whether explosive growth and spirit's gift offset Soul Reaping, high level sturdier minions, more minions, and an army that's maintainable outside of battle.
Explosive growth is cool looking, but it's fairly low damage on mobs that are usually near death already. It's a marginal skill for the same reason putrid explosion is marginal.
Spirit's gift isn't that exciting. It works well enough as a minion heal, and you'll catch your warriors in it, but there's really better ways to keep your melee clean.
There's also the added pain of casting those enchantments and praying they don't get stripped/interrupted.
Like I said though, the template is strong enough in PvE that even playing a slightly gimped minion master will still work pretty well.
Explosive growth is cool looking, but it's fairly low damage on mobs that are usually near death already. It's a marginal skill for the same reason putrid explosion is marginal.
Spirit's gift isn't that exciting. It works well enough as a minion heal, and you'll catch your warriors in it, but there's really better ways to keep your melee clean.
There's also the added pain of casting those enchantments and praying they don't get stripped/interrupted.
Like I said though, the template is strong enough in PvE that even playing a slightly gimped minion master will still work pretty well.
Bargamer
Yeah, for minion-scarce areas, I usually swap my Necro-Hero out, or change his build. I love my Rit, lol
Seriously though, you wanna see tons of minions, Vizunah Square. It used to be, the Prophesy chars would bring 2 MM, Factions side would have my Rit/N and 1 MM, and we'd just spam Animates for 30 minutes. It was awesome. Of course, when Nightfall came out, it became BYONecro Time! That mission was the best for power-leveling your Heroes, they all got a level per run.
Seriously though, you wanna see tons of minions, Vizunah Square. It used to be, the Prophesy chars would bring 2 MM, Factions side would have my Rit/N and 1 MM, and we'd just spam Animates for 30 minutes. It was awesome. Of course, when Nightfall came out, it became BYONecro Time! That mission was the best for power-leveling your Heroes, they all got a level per run.
Bargamer
Dr Strangelove: The two builds have two differing objectives, so it's no surprise that they choose to do it with different means. The key to understanding the Spawning Power Enchantments is that Animate Bone Minions triggers ALL of them, TWICE, at the SAME time: Upon creation. The build, and the supporting Hero builds, have other effects and spells that trigger upon death: Either minion or mob. When you add all that AOE together, you get some very competitive numbers. Rits trade the Necro's Fiend auto-DPS for the auto-effects of our Enchants, and instead of constantly spamming Blood of the Master, we simply rely on Spawning Power's +64% health. If they die on the way, oh well. Rits are a lot more casual about our minions dying, it comes with the build, LOL.
As for strips/interrupts, that is also why the build has the "OH SNAP! EMERGENCY!" skills in Reclaim Essence and/or Taste of Death. Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.
As for strips/interrupts, that is also why the build has the "OH SNAP! EMERGENCY!" skills in Reclaim Essence and/or Taste of Death. Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
As for strips/interrupts, that is also why the build has the "OH SNAP! EMERGENCY!" skills in Reclaim Essence and/or Taste of Death. Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.
Necros don't really have those because they don't need them. Signet of lost souls makes reclaim essence less impressive, taste of death is unnecessary with mystic regen or heal area. Necros are more stable with less skill slots, letting them have a lot more fun toys.
Again, rit minion bombers are by no means horrible. They'll work fine, and they certainly have a lot of eye candy. As for any area where you can run a necro and rit minion master - there's really going to be so many minions that you can steamroll everything no matter how efficient you are. However, the thread topic is asking whether rit mm's are better than necro mm's, and necros are the clear winner. There's a reason all the soul reaping exploit builds in PvP chose a necromancer over a rit. Side note - How are you liking warper vs carnagor?
Kwan Xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
Dr Strangelove:
Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too. A Necro with Soul Reaping at rank 8-10 IMO doesn't need Reclaim Essence, also I believe Animate Flesh Golem would be a better elite for MMs as its a powerful tank that doesn't die as quickly as the other minions. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this thread about Ritualist MMs not Minion Bombers? We all know Minion bombers work well but MMs are different, MM minions are suppose to stay alive and take/deal damage for your party as long as possible, Necro Minions IMO are better for that kind of job. ~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwan Xi
A Necro with Soul Reaping at rank 8-10 IMO doesn't need Reclaim Essence, also I believe Animate Flesh Golem would be a better elite for MMs as its a powerful tank that doesn't die as quickly as the other minions.
Flesh golem is just a meatshield amongst a meatshield. And it takes up an elite slot. That is why it's bad - not good.
Kwan Xi
yeah a level 26 Meatshield and once in awhile it makes a few devastating critical hits too. Oh yeah he's recyclable too.
sph0nz
It's a waste of an elite slot because there are better MM elites out like [skill]Order of Undeath[/skill] and [skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill]. The only good thing about Flesh Golem is that it leaves an exploitable corpse. Otherwise, the higher level and health aren't very good. Especially since his attack speed is slow.
[skill]Order of Undeath[/skill]+[skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill]+[skill]Mark of Pain[/skill] = win. I suppose Rits are ok for minion bombing, on the other hand.
blakecraw
Necros are of course superior, but if you're pressed for a rit pve build mm is good.
Attuned was Songkai + boon = spamming bone fiends, although you can only have 8 of them so meh. Add in spirits gift and you've got a not-too-shabby character, certainly not a wasted spot on the team.
Coloneh
I love Rit MMs. you REALLY dont miss those 2 extra minions when your dealing a ton of damage, healing your frontline and giving yourself a ton of energy every 8 seconds
Originally Posted by Kwan Xi
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Originally Posted by blakecraw
Necros are of course superior, but if you're pressed for a rit pve build mm is good.
there is absolutely no reason to assume that. cookie-cutters ar not always the best option (although usually they are)
Bargamer
Good point, Kwan Xi. In the interest of not talking anymore about Minion BOMBERS, and instead what the Rit class itself can offer to MMing, I won't talk about the obvious analogy between the builds for the Hellgate: London Warper or Carnagor Summoner. Really.
Dr Strangelove
I'll also give you that as bombers go, humans cannot run an effective necro bomber because of jagged bones. It's just too much trouble to handle that and death nova. Olias rocked the house as a bomber in HA, though.
For humans, a rit is about as good as it gets for a bomber because the passive enchantments are a hell of a lot easier to manage than annoying targeted enchantments. Kwan- Fleshies are terrible because better elites exist. They're ok when you really need the anchor for dark bond, or you're in a low corpse area but otherwise there's much better ways to bring the DPS.
zwei2stein
Fleshie used to be good before NF, ever since nf came out, AoTL became superior because of atol+darkbond+mystic regen+(masochism if you want) (why have one bad tank when you can just spam botm and keep everything alive without any trouble.)
That, or oder of undeath, or icy veins if you want damage and are hard pressed for skill slots.
Draginvry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
The key to understanding the Spawning Power Enchantments is that Animate Bone Minions triggers ALL of them, TWICE, at the SAME time
Many people also forget Shambling Horror, which triggers them twice, but at different times, rather than simultaneously. My Spirit's Gift build runs minions and shamblings and resto.
The trick to Shambling Horrors is to keep enough of them alive that when you cast a new one, they will "chain" kill themselves. As a horror with the lowest HP dies, a Jagged Horror will be spawned. But since you still only have 8 total minions, a new Shambling Horror will die to make room for the Jagged Horror, causing yet another Shambling Horror to die to make room for the even newer Jagged. Doing this requires extensive BotM spam, since Resto alone isn't enough. But I've had times where i've seen blue numbers fill my entire screen from Spirit's Gift being triggered 6 times in less than a second. It's great for keeping minions at full health, but doesn't really do anything for backliners. Explosive Growth is another story entirely... I suspect the only reason SP enchants haven't been nerfed is because this exploit is incredibly diffucult to pull off in general gameplay. I couldn't even imagine getting 6 or 7 Shambling Horrors in hard mode. The long recharge of Shambling means that you have to find a way to keep about four of them alive for a long duration before you see any real payoff with Spirit's Gift. The largest possible numbers would be generated from having 8 Shambling Horrors, and then casting Bone Minions. Maybe if I'm bored one day I'll do it in a lowbie area just to see how many times it triggers. I suppose eight? Two for the minions, and once for each new Jagged Horror that would chain create.
MywayFtw
From personal experience with Rit MM builds, I have found that the minions tend to die quite fast. At some points, they are dealing 0 damage to the target, and the 'bombing' isnt that much.
I guess with an hero AI, it would be easier to stick Nova on them, but for a human player, its too hard. Might stick Jagged Bones in when i cap it, and see how that goes. Bargamer
Drag: 2 for the Bone Minions, 8 for the Shambling deaths, then the original Bone Minions die, ending the cycle. So 10.
Dr. Strangelove: I dropped Death Nova from my bar when GW:EN came out, and replaced it with the much-more-targetable hex, Putrid Bile. Drop Jagged Bones for Necrosis, Rank 8, and you'll never cast another non-self Enchant ever again. I let my Necro Hero handle the Jagged Bones/Death Nova and another copy of Putrid Bile. Besides, I thought if you just cast JB with no target/party/foe selected, it auto-drops on the closest minion that doesn't have JB on it? My own experiences and wiki verify this.
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
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Originally Posted by Bargamer
Besides, I thought if you just cast JB with no target/party/foe selected, it auto-drops on the closest minion that doesn't have JB on it? My own experiences and wiki verify this.
Thing is, that's not really what you want to do with JB, you want it on something that's going to die soon, like an older minion. Olias is a total ninja with it, though.
Bargamer
A N/Rt Healer? If Resto is usable on a Necro... Ok, I'll stop. XDDD
And unless you got BotM or UI hacks, it's really hard to consistently keep track of minion health, keep up the spells, and focus on the mission. That's why I like SP's +64% minion health. Usually, it buys my Hero enough time to enchant most of my minions with Nova/JB, unless you're in Realm of Torment, in which case, roll up a Resto Rit, and get a PUG. I hate Torment, SO MUCH. XO With Putrid Bile+Necrosis, I can pick out the trouble-making mobs and "solo-spike" them. And when they die, they go boom! Everything about me is about "boom," you see. Well, boom and conditions/degen. And just plain funny. Boom, degen, and funny. *Does a silly dance.*
MywayFtw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamer
A N/Rt Healer? If Resto is usable on a Necro... Ok, I'll stop. XDDD
Yes, but the general 'bombing' idea comes from Spawning Power which is Rt primary. I cant really see much you can do with N/Rt though...splinter weapon on minion maybe? lol.
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by MywayFtw
Yes, but the general 'bombing' idea comes from Spawning Power which is Rt primary. I cant really see much you can do with N/Rt though...splinter weapon on minion maybe? lol.
N/rt is the power of restoration combined with the infinite energy of soul reaping. With the recent SR nerf, they're not quite as good, but they're still exceedingly powerful if you have a minion master running around.
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